₦airaland Forum

Logycs:
Following your logics, the internet is several thousand years old.

Because?? Lol.

I certainly didn’t teach you this, John-Bull. Smiles.

You keep making false reasonings. The fact still remains you have to provide proof for your claims, not some crooked conspiracy theory which is what you soecialize in.

We’re you trying to reply yourself here?

Logycs:
You are such a 419. So in order to not have to provide proof for your claim, you will just claim it is written in a language which I can not read ?

For your info, I have many arab friends who can read Arabic.

You have already admitted you do not have the text. I also doubt you can read Arabic or that you even know anybody who can.

My comments have been consistently clear on why I have consulted those who are in a better position to access Ahmed Baba’s actual writings.

And when I checked with them (i.e. Professors Falola and Childs), they confirmed that Ahmed Baba’s writings does indeed contain reference to “Yoruba” in as early as the year 1613.

The issue of your Arabic illiteracy and my Arabic literacy is secondary to the foregoing crux of the discourse.

You are just one big fraud.

For citing renowned academics, scholars, and experts; rather than repeating an empty claim without any substantiation whatsoever as you’ve been doing repeatedly??

Guys anything said by this person is doubtful at best.

I kind of have pity for you at this point.

Logycs:
Look, you are just admitting you have no proof for your claims.
You are talking on a subject on which you know nothing, the professors you quoted should be the ones debating with me, instead of their fanboy who knows nothing he is talking about.
If you can't prove something then stop pretending. You are not in the league of those who can have a rational debate on this matter. We are not fanboys, we prove our claims !

The professors should be the one “debating you?

I actually don’t know how to react to the fact that I am giving you so much heat that you’re already loosing touch with reality.

For emphasis again: Professors Falola and Childs clearly stated that Ahmed Baba’s writings contain reference (s) to “Yoruba” as early as the year 1613.

There goes my evidence that Ahamed Baba’s writings contain reference to “Yoruba” as early as the year 1613.

No rocket science.

Cheers!

Logycs:
"People of Benin Kingdom are also called Bini" but by whom ?
In their language they are called Edo and their empire is called Benin and their capital city share the name Benin (Benin city)

A cheap google search could have saved you from this public embarrassment.

“Bini” and “Benin” are used interchangeably. See: Encyclopaedia Britannica for example:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Edo-people

Logycs:
Show me the quote, on the paper. Don't think I will believe you just because you say something.
Show me the paper and the quote on the paper

It is interesting that you think my burden of proof includes providing you with the book itself, whether hard-copy paper as you’ve insisted here or a digital version.

No, my burden of proof is limited to citing the statements in quotes or paraphrase and the provide the full reference for cross-checking.

Providing you the actual publication is only on my volition at my discretion.

You appear, again and again, to be new to how academia works.

Logycs:
Actually this is what the Yoruba came from:
1) slave returnees whose ancestors were kidnapped all over Africa and enslaved in America and Europe.
2) dahomyans whom have lost touch with their passed
3) Edo's whom have lost touch with their passed
4) Ijebu
5) oyos

A bunch of unrelated people who formed a new tribe created in the colonial era.

This appears to be a frustration/pain-induced comment. Lol.

Anyways, I will be waiting for you to cite any historical evidence to prove that the following sub-groups did not always belong to the same ethno-linguistic group:

Ife, Oyo, Awori, Ijebu, Egba, Ekiti, Ijesa, Ondo, Ibarapa, Egbado, Akoko, Owo, Ikale, Itsekiri, Ketu Sabe, Popo Ifonyin, Idasa, Ana, Ahori, Itsha, Mahi, Igbomina, Ibolo, Owe, Oworo, Jumu, Bunu, Yagba, Gbede, Ikiri, etc.

.
.
.Bear in mind that some of these foregoing Yoruba subgroups are found in France’s Francophone Republic of Benin — that is, outside of Britain’s Anglophone Nigeria. Lol.

Logycs:
1) actually you are the person who should be proving your claim of Yoruba influence over Benin is not a myth

While I am obliged to justify any claim I make, you are not exempted from justifying yours in case you’re wondering.

I have already alluded to the statement by Father “Columbine de Nantes” in his 26 December 1640 letter to the higher authorities of the French mission to the effect that the lingua-franca of Benin is the language of the Yoruba people.

That for any reasonable person is an influence. You must then prove you bogus claim that the widely attested Yoruba influence on Benin Is A mYtH. Lol.

You are making a claim with no proof, that is called a myth.

You must learn to always read what you will be reply to before actually replying.

Talkless of the fact there was no such thing as Yoruba when the Oba of Benin was already written about under his title)

Again, from the joint work of Professors Falola & Childs, the writings of Ahmed Baba does contain reference(s) to the word “Yoruba” in as early as the year 1613.

Moreover, you are yet to provide any evidence to substantiate your oft-repeated bogus claim that the word “Oba” in respect of a Benin monarch appears in writing in the 1500s.

There seem to be no mention of the word “Oba” in relation to the Benin monarch, prior to the 1900s.

2) Do you care to produce the imaginary texts which you keep talking about ? "Father Columbus of Nante" ? Where is the text ? There is no text of that era which even mentions Yoruba!

Again, the word “Yoruba” appeared in writing earlier than 1640 as has been oft demonstrated. However, Professor has shown that the terms “Nago” and “Lucumi” predates “Yoruba” as a generic description to the same effect.

Having said that, refer to the attached screenshot on the quotation from Columbine de Nantes’ note on Benin’s lingua-franca (the Lucumi language) as cited by R.C.C. Law in his “Nago as an Ethninym in West Africa”.

Bot wouldn’t let me type in the quotation myself.

3) stop telling lies !

I can’t possibly stop what I didn’t begin. You should take your own advice.

Logycs:
Quoting supposedly scholarly publications is just an other fraudulent way make claims. The field of west African history has enough crooks as it is.

Well, instead of distracting yourself with hypothetical situations, why not face reality? Lol.

Don’t you realize that there is a huge gap between the phrase “supposedly scholarly publications” and the phrase “scholarly publications”.

I have cited you the joint publication of Professors Toyin Falola & Matt D. Childs wherein they stated unambiguously that Ahmed Baba’s writings contain reference(s) to “Yoruba” as early as the year 1613.

Just show the original text written by an eyewitness. But you can't because your claims are bogus.

No, because I don’t have it, I have resorted to those who have it and who are also more authoritative, scholarly, and academic than I am.

No rocket science here.

Logycs:
Once again you seem to have descended into a word salad. All you say is completely illogical.
1) so your "Yoruba saying" is your proof now ? Wow, how dumb is that ?

You may want to take a crash course in analytical logic to understand that a year 2020 documentation of a practical well-known Igbo proverb is proof that the particular proverb dates to years, centuries, or millennials (depending on its contextual referents) prior to the year 2020.

This was my specific point when I cited an 1800s documentation of the then already-ancient Yoruba sayings about “Oba” in Yorubaland.

2) "who have been firmly situated" wtf ? Stop trying to convert myths into reality. You can firmly situated your made up characters all you want, it still won't make them real.

I am quite certain that you yourself didn’t believe you have put forward a counter argument here.

Moreover, you should be smart enough to at least realize that merely re-writing the word ”myth” even a quadrillion times only proves absolutely nothing.

Logycs:
Actually the only way to demonstrate "Yoruba” existed as early as the year 1613" is to provide a text written in 1613 or befor 1613 which mentions the word "Yoruba". Instead, all you are applying are crooked methods which don't prove anything but rather your methods are designed to dupe people.
Quoting supposedly scholarly publications is just an other fraudulent way make claims. The field of history, especially the west african part has enough crooks as it is.

No the only way to prove my point to you is not to quote an Arabic text that you can not read.

There are other ways of establishing the same historical fact.

For example, if you admit that the earth is ‘spherical’, then you’ve done so not because you’ve observed its complete ‘sphericity’, but because of the testimony of the experts, scholars, and academics who have done so.

In a similar way, the word “Yoruba” exists in Ahmed Baba’s writings as early as the year 1613 not because I have accessed Ahmed Baba’s Arabic writings to see it directly, but because of the confirmation of the experts, scholars, and academics who have done so, and some of whose publication I have quoted.

This is how academia works. And this is not rocket science. Lol.

Logycs:
1) there is no text previous to the 1930's which refers to any Yoruba as Oba. Therefor you should apologize for lying. I am only stating facts.

You seem to be self inflicting yourself with ignorance as I already quoted you four different instances from a classic text completed in the year 1897. Go back again.

2) the people of Benin empire are called Edo, not Bini.

The people of Benin are also called Bini. I’m not sure what you had sought to achieve with this gaffe.

3) the way the art of history works is that you prove something happened with texts written by eye-witness instead of texts written by some guy in his mother's basement pretending to know what took place hundreds of years before his grandfather was born.

While eyewitness account is okay, it constitutes only one way of establishing a historical point.

In this particular instance, I do not have access to Ahmed Baba’s writing (assuming you can read Arabic), but Professor Falola and Dr. Childs both confirmed ‘for me’ that Ahmed Baba’s account does contain the word “Yoruba” as early as the year 1613.

How this is rocket science to you is beyond me.

4) you have to be intellectually honest which you are not. You start with a yoruba-centric claim and you say anything and adapt your methods to justify it rather than doing a real historical investigation to establish truth.

This is all too vague and not to any specific issue. Can you be clear and precise as to which of my arguments you aim at here?

Logycs:
1) if you want to add something to your comment, make a new comment instead of just modifying your existing comment just to evade my scrutiny.

Smiles.

2) "well known Yoruba influence on Edo monarchy" is a myth.

You have no evidence for this claim. I challenge you to provide any academic support for your wish here.

Moreover, in his letter to the French authorities, Father Columbine of Nantes who visited the coast of West Africa in the 1630s notes that the lingua-franca of Benin Kingdom is the language of the Yoruba people.

I would think that’s a Yoruba influence on Benin Kingdom.

The fact is the first person ever referred to as Oba in a written text is the emperor of Benin empire

. This is false and I challenge to provide an academic substantiation for this.

That is his title just as ooni is the title of the king of ife and alafin is the title of the king of oyo.

No, his title is not “Oba”, the word “Oba” simply means “king”. Instead, his title is the “Omo N’oba” — and any Edo in here will inform you that this phrase “Omo N’oba” has absolutely nothing to do with the word “king”, “monarch”, etc.

So just as “Ooni Ife” is the royal title (Oruko-oye) of the monarch (Oba) who rules Ife, and “Alaafin Oyo” is the royal title (Oruko-Oye) of the king (Oba) who rules Oyo, so is “Omo N’oba N’Edo” the royal title of the monarch (“Ogie” replaced later by “Oba” ) who rule Benin.

All the Edo speaking people used the word “Ogie” or any of its variants such as “Ovie”, “Enogie”, etc. to represent the word “king”.

3)Benin empire was the superpower of the region

What specific region is Benin the super power of? Provide academic substantiation for whatever you will muster.

••• it is therefore laughable to suggest any the title of its emperor was due to influence from a people which didn't exist (Yoruba) when the Oba of Benin was already being referred to as Oba.

Interesting. Lol! The Yorubas came out of thin air in recent centuries to occupy the prior vacant vast territory of land of southwest Nigeria and squeezed these Binis into a relatively small parcel of land. Smiles.

Logycs:
Once again, there is no way to prove any "misarticulation" unless you create a time machine, go back in time and record our ancestors on audio tape.
Languages evolve over time.
Our current prononciations of our indigenous words are not the same as those of our ancestors.

With all due respect (due to any fellow human), you are very illogical.
You only manage to fool people whom are dumber than you.

Lol. Citing a scholarly publication of prominent academics (Falola & Childs), I have demonstrated that a written account of the word “Yoruba” existed as early as the year 1613.

I am not sure then how you thing you’re making any case for yourself now.

Lol. If I remember correctly you had written the following words:

The word Oba refers to the title of the emperor of Benin empire and was copied by the Yoruba chiefs in the 1930's

Any decent person would have quickly tendered an unreserved apology for lying publicly that the Yoruba began using “Oba” in the 1930s, and that they borrowed it from the Binis in whose language the word is ’meaningless’.

Logycs:
1) If you want to prove the word "Oba" was used to describe a Yoruba chief in the 1500's then provide a text written in the1500's which refers to a Yoruba chief as "Oba". Not a text supposedly written in 1898 which refers to a Yoruba chief who (supposedly) existed in the 1500's as "Oba".

I am not sure why there must always be only one way of establishing a historical fact. What books have you been reading if you’ve been reading?

However, I have demonstrated clearly that by the 1800s a to-be-well-known written account has already captured centuries old Yoruba sayings addressing Yoruba kings as “Oba”.

Not only were the word “Oba” found in this 1800s account, the specific references I mentioned relates to well-known ancient Yoruba sayings which (according to this author) were already old sayings as at the time of his writing.

Also, those respective saying relate specifically to different kings of Oyo-Ile who have been firmly situated into different historical milieus, viz. the 1500s, the 1600s, and the 1700s.

2) you provided neither the date of publication of your supposed "reverend Johnson" written text, nor the text itself. Besides go back to point 1.

You need to read more slowly going forward. Moreover, two distinct dates were provided for that famous classic of S. Johnson. Both the date of completion of the text, and the date of publication of the text was provided in my reference. Calm down! Smiles.

Logycs:
Dude, you still haven't provided proof.
You are claiming to quote someone whom is also claiming to quote someone.
Show me s text written before 1630 which talks about yoruba.
Stop trying to crook your way out of this.

Lol.

(1) My objective here is to show that Ahmed Baba did document it in 1613.

(2) Showing you the text (on the assumption that you can read Arabic) will prove two things: (i)That I have the text, and (ii)That Ahmed Baba did document “Yoruba” in 1613.

However, I do not have to prove point (2i) as it is irrelevant to my objective here.

(3) What I have done as a logically valid alternative to (2ii) is to present a scholarly and academic attestation to the fact that Ahmed Baba did document “Yoruba” in 1610.

(4) And I have done precisely that when I quoted the joint academic publication of Dr. Falola (the Frances Higginbothame Nalle Centennial Professor in History at University of Texas) and Dr. Matt D. Childs (of the History Department at the University of South Carolina).

(5) With the foregoing I have logically and validly demonstrated that the word “Yoruba” is present in Ahmed Baba (1613).

I can’t be too sure what you’re trying hard to compensate for, but I can only advice that you drink some water, and take a deep breath.

Logycs:
Once again, we (west Africans) had no spelling for those words.
How can you call the first spelling for a word a misspelling of the word ? It makes no sense ! The logical thing to deduce is that the word changed over time.
Yari.ba changed into yoruba not because it was misspelled into yar.iba (makes no sense because no prior spelling existed) but because someone misspelled it into Yoruba at some point or west Africans changed the way they pronounced the word over time.

"Benny/Benin": there were several European countries speaking several different languages who traded with Benin empire. Their individual spellings of "Benin" were due to the fact the europeans were speaking different languages and the same sound spells differently in different languages.

Benin empire also had no written language, the European spellings were the first spellings therefor they can't be referred to as "misspellings".

Lol. “misspellings/mis-articulations“.

Check my original comment again. Smiles.

Logycs:
I see you are still conducting your 419 logics.
To the unsuspecting readers: there is no such thing as etymology for our west African languages. This "oyo r'oba" thing is a hoax created by non other than macof and some other nairaland revisionists.
The word Oba refers to the title of the emperor of Benin empire and was copied by the Yoruba chiefs in the 1930's

Don’t worry I am here to spread enlightenment and ease burdens:

(1) The Reverend Samuel Johnson writing in the 1800s (specifically prior to the year 1898) made many references to the word "Oba" as used for different Yoruba kings who ruled in Yorubaland in the 1700s, 1600s, and 1500s.

Quoting word-for-word directly from his writing, the following are a few examples of such use:

(i) Several points of similarity may be noted between the ALAFIN and his Basorun. The ALAFIN is Oba (a king), he is Iba (a lord)."

(ii) "From this incident, King ABIPA was nick-named Oba M'oro (the King who caught ghosts)."

(iii) "And this has passed into proverb, "Oku dede ki a ko iwi wo Akesan, Oba Jayin te ori gba aso". (At the approach to Akesan of a company of chanting Eguguns, King JAYIN buried his head in a shroud.) Used of one who anticipates the inevitable."

(iv) "Oaths were no more taken in the name of the gods, who were now considered too lenient and indifferent; but rather in the name of the King [i.e. King AOLE himself] who was more dreaded. "Ida Oba ni yio je mi" (may the King's sword destroy me) was the new form of oath!"

Reference: Samuel Johnson, "The History of the Yorubas". Completed 1897, Published 1921, pp.71, 166, 171, and 188 respectively.

(2) The word “Oba” as it refers to a king, monarch, etc. does not exist indigenously in the Edo lexicon.

The word “Oba” as used for a monarch exist in the Edo language due to the well-known Yoruba influence on the Edo monarchy.

The Yoruba root-word “Ba” means “reign over”. While the Edo indigenous root-word “Ba” has absolutely nothing to do with monarchy or kingship — it simply means “Red” or “Shine”.

OFFICIAL336:
When Awka started smelting iron, there was no Oyo empire.

Go and read about Uzu Oka.

First, define your pre-colonial period let start from there

See attached. Bot trigger things.

cc: DuwaRepublic, MetaPhysical

PS: Yet Taruga (or even Nok itself) is no where close to an empire.

Logycs:
Prove it

I already did, even more forcefully, in that same comment towards its end. How did you manage to miss it?

But in any case, refer to the following statements culled from Falola & Childs‘ allusion to Ahmed Baba’s writings:

““Yoruba” has been a descriptive category for people speaking a common language in the interior of the Bight of Benin since at least the sixteenth century, and likely earlier still.* The first reference to the term is in the writings of Ahmed Baba in 1613, but by implication Baba was describing an ethnicity that had existed for some time.”

Reference: Toyin Falola & Matt D. Childs, “The Yoruba Diaspora in the Atlantic World”, (2004), p.41.

Cheers!

Yujin:
How does this prove Oyo was an empire? I'm aware of this history where the Oyo kingdom at its height forced Abomey to pay tributes. This lasted for about 40years until a new Fon King emerged and called off the bluff of Oyo. That was the genesis of the famous dahomean amazons. Oyo no doubt was great but it never grew to become an empire. The distinctive features of an empire is having a number of diverse nations under the control and use of their conquerors. Oyo was not so. If there's any description of Oyo's political domination of numerous nations incorporating them into the organisation of her political stratagem, state it here and I'll apologise and keep shut.
There are reasons why some strong kingdoms who's army defeated numerous of their neighbours and collect tribute from these defeated nations are not classified as empires. Find out about what I said then you'll understand why Oyo was never an empire despite it's successful stint among few small tribes around her.

See attached for my reply.

Spam bot triggers wouldn't allow me type them in here so I resorted to attaching them as screenshot with one of my other accounts.

Cheers!
cc: Trinitykey

**The first reference to Archibald Dalzel below is from page 183.

davidnazee:
[s]Your futile attempts at always deflecting to Edo people relationship with their Oba whenever I bring up the wicked conquest of the Aworis (your tribe) by the naked Edo warriors is evidence of your shame and frustration (and admission) for what the Aworis suffered from Benin. You can never run from the truth. Benin Kingdom of the Edo people conquered, displaced, dispersed and ruled the Aworis (Tao12 tribe) for 3 centuries.[/s]

I appreciate your desperation as a Lagosian wanna-be.

But guess what, you've tried this screen-shot with me before, and I flogged you almost to death into seeing that it does not agree with the eye-witness account of Ulsheimer himself.

Your anonymous screenshot speaks of the 1603 conflict in Lagos as a Benin attempt to conquer, settle-in, and take Lagos.

Whereas, the 1603 eyewitness account of Ulsheimer himself shows that the Binis had settled in Lagos long, long before this 1603 conflict.

I am sorry to have broken your heart again on your last hope of becoming a Lagosian.

gregyboy:
[s]I bet you get some sexual urge while arguing with guys, i dont know why you wont take a break or even have this discussion with your fello gender. Even when you have lost an argument
You're restless[/s]

More tears is all I see again.

No single reply to any of my points.

In the meantime, enjoy the following:

"The royal right of abuse seems to have survived to the last days, for Gallwey (p. 129) mentions that “the Benin people ... are treated as slaves by the king, the title of king's slave being considered an honour." We have seen above that for different reasons ... the mass of the people were practically slaves to the king, ..."

gregyboy:
[s]Sleeping...... You're bored and restless no one got your time,......
Same argument we binis have trashed is what you want to talk about...... Youre pained you lost even with your lies..... Lol

When you got something new i will know but now you're just pained

You need sleep[/s]

I thought you had a reply.

Not knowing it's just tears as usual.

Enjoy the following:
"The royal right of abuse seems to have survived to the last days, for Gallwey (p. 129) mentions that “the Benin people ... are treated as slaves by the king, the title of king's slave being considered an honour." We have seen above that for different reasons ... the mass of the people were practically slaves to the king, ..."

davidnazee:
Great Benin Kingdom conquered and displaced her Awori tribe in Lagos, subjugating them for over 300 years.. that is the reason for her pain and frustration at anything Benin.

davidnazee:
So you mean it was the Yoruba Oba of Benin that conquered your Awori tribe in Eko?

On the imagined cOnQuEsT:

(1) One of your slave-bretheren (gayboy) admitted that it existed only in the imagination of your Edo fore-parents.

(2) Another of your slave-bretheren (Etinosa) pretended to have evidence until he was so squashed that he had to flee for dear life.

(3) But in your own case, you strongly belief in the ret@rded idea that empty repitition = proof.

You're obviously the dumbest of all the aforementioned slaves. You eventually overtook gayboy in ret@rdation.


Anyways, enjoy the following words in the meantime:
"The royal right of abuse seems to have survived to the last days, for Gallwey (p. 129) mentions that “the Benin people ... are treated as slaves by the king, the title of king's slave being considered an honour." We have seen above that for different reasons ... the mass of the people were practically slaves to the king, ..."

gregyboy, you haven't answered my question: Ife, according to you is mYtHiCaL (whatever that means), yet all the Obas of Benin -- including the reigning EwuareII -- pay homage to Ife on their respective ascensions.

Does this not prove that all the Obas of Benin are schizophreniac??

"The royal right of abuse seems to have survived to the last days, for Gallwey (p. 129) mentions that “the Benin people ... are treated as slaves by the king, the title of king's slave being considered an honour." We have seen above that for different reasons ... the mass of the people were practically slaves to the king, ..."

cc: gregyboy

gregyboy:
.

(1) Yes, your pdf is correct. There are many dialects of the Yoruba language. That is already well-known. I am schocked that you consider that to be news.

(2) Having said that, Erediauwa said that Benin was founded by its first Oba whom he said was given birth to by the Supreme God Almighty as his last-born son. 

But he forgot to mention the name of God's wife whom this mythical founder was born through.

MythicalBenin -- first made-up by Erediauwa

gregyboy:
.

(1) Yes, your pdf is correct. There are many dialects of the Yoruba language. That is already well-known. I am schocked that you consider that to be news.

(2) Having said that, Erediauwa said that Benin was founded by its first Oba whom he said was given birth to by the Supreme God Almighty as his last-born son  > 

But he forgot to mention the name of God's wife whom this mythical founder was born through.

MythicalBenin -- first made-up by Erediauwa

gregyboy:
The mythical ife composed by samuel johnson i loved his novel history of yorubas, and he said a yorubas came from oduduwa and how oduduwa came from egypt... Is novel was top notch

"The royal right of abuse seems to have survived to the last days, for Gallwey (p. 129) mentions that “the Benin people ... are treated as slaves by the king, the title of king's slave being considered an honour." We have seen above that for different reasons ... the mass of the people were practically slaves to the king, ..."

gregyboy:
The mythical ife composed by samuel johnson i loved his novel history of yorubas, and he said a yorubas came from oduduwa and how oduduwa came from egypt... Is novel was top notch

But in any case:

Thank you for continuing to admit the fact that you (as an Edo) are a slave (by default) to the Yoruba-Oba of Benin.

Thank you for admitting the fact that he is not one of you -- that is, for admitting that he simply came, saw, and conquered

gregyboy:
The mythical ife composed by samuel johnson i loved his novel history of yorubas, and he said a yorubas came from oduduwa and how oduduwa came from egypt... Is novel was top notch

(1) Why does Benin continue to pay homage to a mYtHiCaL non-existent Ife?? Ask Ewuare!

(2) Having said that, Erediauwa said that Benin was founded by its first Oba.

He added that this Oba was given birth to by the Supreme God Almighty as his last-born son >

But he forgot to mention the name of God's wife whom this mythical founder was born through.

MythicalBenin -- first made-up by Erediauwa.