₦airaland Forum

Tie in.

[url=https://books.google.com/books?id=fRBqDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT200&lpg=PT200&dq=Oghene+n%27Uhe&source=bl&ots=2PQ5iBUUfN&sig=ACfU3U3v7VSlqF07YMELUTv6R95W7_MqHA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjY5Jen6p3rAhXAhHIEHQFvBz8Q6AEwB3oECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Oghene%20n&f=false]R.E. Bradbury’s “Benin Studies”[/url]

davidnazee:
This scene only described the Europeans peeping on naked Yoruba girls bathing.. I don't see anything else here.

Oh sorry. What a pity! I understand that you would need more than one brain-cell to “see anything else here”. So, I would break it down to you as usual.

Now compare the reactions of the following two groups of people — how each of them was reported to have reacted to being seen na.ked:

(1) A bunch of uncivilized Edo women who are used to roaming the streets stark nak.ed because they consider cloths to be the luxurious possession of the affluent and the older folks:

“... So you can see there, WOMEN of TWENTY and TWENTY-FIVE YEARS going along the streets perfectly nude without showing any shame."

Reference: H.Ling Roth, “Great Benin, Its Customs, Art and Horrors”, F. King & Sons Ltd., (1903), p.24.
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(2) A group of civilized regular Yoruba girls who are naturally ashamed of being seen nak.ed because they are used to clothing, as it is a normal part Yoruba life:

“... We stood for a season gazing on them with pleasure; but no sooner were our white faces observed by the young ladies, than their amusements instantly ceased, and the sable beauties simultaneously rushing from the water, snatched up their apparel, and with their uncovered associates, concealing their faces with their hands, ran away and hid themselves behind the trunk of trees, looking as coy and bashful as did their mother Eve in the Garden of Eden.”

Reference: Richard Lander’s 1826 account quoted in Drewal et al.: Yoruba: Nine Centuries of African Art and Thought, 1.
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A Very Important Note: The above account regarding the (20/25 years old) Edo women relates to as recent as the year 1903.

While on the other hand, the account of R. Lander regarding the Yoruba girls was from the year 1826.
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If you are suggesting beauty, Edo ladies are far more beautiful than Yoruba ladies.

On what basis, joker? A standardized objective basis such as beauty pageant suggests otherwise though. Lol.


cc: 900winer, Emilokoiyawon, Keraxes.

Kirigidi:
Please stop that! The Ogiso Dynasty was very real. I am Urhobo and our migration history is centered around the Ogiso era and not the Oba Dynasty. Urhobo-Isoko history tells of migration of our ancestors from ancient Udo when it was under the Ogiso Dynasty. The Binis may have lost records of the Ogiso period, but the story of the Ogisos is still very strong in Urhobo-Isoko folklores and ancient stories. Infact, we are more familiar with the Ogiso story than with that of the Oba, because much of Urhobo-Isoko ancestors have left (due to the crises that followed the collapse of the Ogiso Dynasty) before the emergence of the Oba Dynasty. Up to date, there is more mention of ancient "Udo" town (which was the capital the kingdom ruled by the Ogisos known as Aka kingdom) than "Benin" in Urhobo-Isoko folklores because as at the time our ancestors migrated to our present locations the name "Benin" has not come into use.

@Kirigidi: Please note that the comment of the guy whom you just quoted is a manifestation of his internal troubles, viz. cognitive dissonance.

The only reason he has chosen to delude himself to this extent is so that he can avoid the next obvious truth — which is the fact that a foreign monarchy from Yorubaland (i.e. the ‘Oba’ monarchy) came at some point in history to supplant his indigenous Edo monarchy (i.e. the ‘Ogiso’ monarchy).

He is deluded, brace yourself.

Onlinesmart:
The guy is a scammer bro. Stop wasting time on him. My 5k still with that idiot.

Okay bro.

Edeyoung:
Lol, bring the materials bro you have kept yoruba brothers on their feet so is this all you could bring after you went researching

I will assume you have read both books you're citing so bring it lets everyone reads it,


Ryder instead benin never had any relationship with

Thornton also agreed, if you disagree bring the scrrenshot were ryders went back on his point


And you saying oghene is onni of ife makes me go mad, don't allow vent my anger bro, if you want to lie, please lie with sense

Stop bothering me with links and screenshots when you already have the references.

Screenshots and links are not part of my burden of proof. I may only choose a to be generous with them having already provided the detailed references.

And I have provided you with the relevant statements and their detailed references, including page number. Are all Edos this dumb, or is this a unique case?

Don’t get mad at me because scholars (and not me) identify the Ooni of Ife as the Ogané (i.e. the overlord of Benin kings, et al.).

Instead, get mad at your poor parents for wasting their youths and your life and leaving you so mentally and materially wretched.

But if you are so serious about reading these materials (although I know you’re only saving face by buying time with irrelevant replies); then two of these materials are available free online in digital form (i.e. Adam Knobler, 2016 and R. Horton, 1979).

The other two (A.F.C. Ryder, 1969 and E.A. Isichei, 1983) should be available at your university’s library. Are you a university student yet??

cc: Emilokoiyawon, Omoregiek, macof, MetaPhysical, RuggedSniper, 900winer, illicit, googi, Yujin.

Edeyoung:
Csn we see the scrrenshot or the link to download the books

Stop bothering me with links and screenshot when you already have the reference.

Screenshots and links are not part of my burden of proof. Are Binis this dumb?

I have provided you with the statement and its detailed reference, including page number.

Moreover, this particular material is available free in digital form online.

cc: cc: ayoola27, RedboneSmith, Emilokoiyawon, MelesZenawi.

Edeyoung:
Can you make ths evidence to those claims available

I longef for you because you bring something new but you resumed with nothing but empty brain full of lies

You think am here, to be edo-centric, if you're yoruba centric, you aint impressing me


TAO11 go back and do a better research buy the books if needed to prove your point

I have other thread to see, dont waste my tine

Don’t be dumb gregyboy, aka Edeyoung.

The evidence was provided at the very instant I substantiated the statement with its reference. I am not sure you realize what burden of proof is.

H. Ling Roth, Great Benin, Its Customs, Art and Horrors, F. King & Sons Ltd., 1903, p.7.

The book is available free in digital form online. I also have a copy.

In case you’re wondering, I didn’t give birth to you. So stop feeling entitled that I must provide you with books.

Although I may choose to assist you and your parents, it’s you and your parents’ responsibility — not mine — to provide you with books.

My burden of proof is to substantiate any claim I make with the relevant statements and their appropriate references. And I have done exactly that.

It then becomes your burden, and not mine, to check up the material and cry bitterly at your regular corner; or return here to prove that the material does not contain what I have attributed to it.
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Furthermore, my comments are not directed at you per se. So stop getting too excited, you’re actually a nobody.

My comments are intended to expose you to everyone as the blind, sad, desperate, insecure, bigoted, lying Bini propagandist that you are.

My comments are intended to allow sane readers follow-up on the referenced materials so as to acquaint themselves with historical information.

cc: macof, fluteman, Emilokoiyawon, laiperi, MelesZenawi, googi, RedboneSmith.

Shut your stinking lying mouth, @gregyboy aka @Edeyoung

I wonder where your rotten brain got 1914 from when Roupell himself who collected the data from Benin in 1897 stated clearly that the first Oba of Benin (Eweka1) is a Yoruba man from Ife.

Moreso, this specific data was already published as at 1903 by H. Ling Roth in his “Great Benin: Its Customs, Art and Horrors, F. King & Sons Ltd., 1903, p.7.

cc: ayoola27, RedboneSmith, Emilokoiyawon, MelesZenawi.

gregyboy:
Stop fooling yourself the story of benin-ife emerged after 1914 except you want to prove me wrong with proved dating from 15c to 1913

If you cant shut your trap oba has been the title of benin
The title ogiso is a mystical tales told by the benins to make their royalty divine there was never an ogiso... But oba

That is the kinglist taking by Roupell's 1899 a year after benin was invaded the king list never included oromiyan neither did Roupell's mentioned it in his book, after 1930s talbot took is own kinglist and included oromiyan, esekhure took is kinglist and absconded oromiyan

Bro our king never came ife stop priding your self
Ill gotten history

Shut your stinking lying mouth, @gregyboy aka @Edeyoung

I wonder where your rotten brain got 1914 from when Roupell himself who collected the data from Benin in 1897 stated clearly that the first Oba of Benin (Eweka1) is a Yoruba man from Ife.

Moreso, this specific data was already published as at 1903 by H. Ling Roth in his “Great Benin: Its Customs, Art and Horrors, F. King & Sons Ltd., 1903, p.7.

cc: macof, fluteman, Emilokoiyawon, laiperi, MelesZenawi, googi, RedboneSmith

Edeyoung:
You're cunny lady,

Send the link to get the Ryders books, there are price tags on the ones am seeing

Elizabeth Allo Isichei please send the link to acess her book, or article at least she should have stated ehy Ryders abandon the benin ife connection

Lets have a scrrenshot for this things you have put foward and the links too

You think say you smart

Atleast you shoukd read both books if you have pdf copies of the books srnd them to my email.

Please give screenshots of this books, and links to get them free or send it to my email if you have d pdf

What makes you feel so entitled that I must buy/fetch you materials as part of my burden of proof??

Citing relevant statements backed by the references is the beginning and end of my burden of proof. Read up on what burden of proof is.

Fetching, borrowing, buying, or even stealing materials is your burden not mine. Stop attempting to shift your poverty/ignorance-burden unto me. I may only choose to fetch you materials. Stop feeling entitled.

But to help you, you may reserve a copy of these materials for yourself at your university’s library. I know I’m assuming that you’re done with secondary school.

Not only Ryder opposed the benin ife connection. Are you aware of that, or you soon forgotten

Moreover, the hypothesis developed by Ryder in the 1965 article (although later discarded by him in a bigger 1969 volume) was followed only by J.K. Thornton also as an hypothesis — no proof whatsoever.

However, J.K. Thornton is not a specialist on precolonial Nigeria; neither is he a specialist on Ife or Benin. His specialization is on precolonial Congo/Central Africa and their diaspora.

Every single specialist of precolonial Nigeria history today affirms the Ife-Benin connection by rightly identifying the Ooni of Ife as the powerful overlord over Benin kingdom. This includes A.F.C. Ryder himself.

Furthermore, a reading of Thornton’s article (where he reiterated Ryder’s 1965 hypothesis) shows clearly that Thornton is completely oblivious of the materials that have already refuted Ryder’s 1965 hypothesis.

For example, Thornton’s article shows that he is completely unaware of Robin Horton’s work: “Ancient Ife: A Reassessment” which has given a devastating rebuttal to Ryder (1965) using evidences which were not available to Ryder in 1965.

And apart from Robin Horton, several other scholars (whose specialty is on Nigeria history) have also dealt a huge blow to Ryder (1965).
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Lastly, I remember once citing Adam Knobler’s “Mythology and Diplomacy in the Age of Exploration (2016)” to you.

I quoted to you where he equated the Ogané (who was suzerain over Benin) as none other than the Ooni of Ife.

Guess who Adam Knobler cited as his source for this identification of the Ogane!

He cited none other than page 31 of A.F.C. Ryder’s 1969 “Benin and the Europeans”.

In other words, he also proves that Ryder has later in 1969 re-modified his position back to reality.

Of course, I understand why all these information make you feel depressed.

Cheers!
cc: Emilokoiyawon, Omoregiek, macof, MetaPhysical, RuggedSniper, 900winer, illicit, googi, Yujin.

Edeyoung:
[s]Lol, can we see the article were ryder regarded the benin-ife connection
TAO11 @Emilokoiyawon Emilokoiyawon is your first account on nairaland i see[/s]

(1) I am sad to find that you still haven’t learnt the difference between an article and a book.

(2) In case you’re truly and genuinely hoping to read Ryder’s 1969 book, then here goes the reference to the 372-page book: Benin and the Europeans, 1485 — 1897, (1969).

(3) I understand that you’re only buying time by pretending to be blind when I quoted the historian Elizabeth Allo Isichei who clearly stated how A.F.C. Ryder later abandoned his 1965 hypothesis.

Check out her precise words below one more time:

"It is noteworthy that Ryder, who questioned the Ife connection and argued the case for linkages with a northern kingdom, abandoned the line of argument in his later book, Benin and the Europeans".

— Elizabeth A. Isichei, “A History of Nigeria”, Longman (1983), Volume 2, p. 137.

(4) My monikers are four, and they are undisguised as I use them in case of spambots. Everyone see clearly that they belong to one and the same person. They are in their popular order as follows: TAO11, TAO12, OmoOlofin, and YauYamba.

I understand that you are still mad at me for exposing your as.s to the whole world as one and the same person as gregyboy. I know you will get over it sooner or later.

cc: Emilokoiyawon, Omoregiek, macof, MetaPhysical, RuggedSniper, 900winer, illicit, googi, Yujin.

Edeyoung:
You still repeating same old story, at the bolded, i guess ghostwon or arefada addressed the bolded before

I see you are still empty TAO11 you can do better i leave you in the hands of ghostwon

Yes, the same old story of how Ryder himself discarded his own view as demonstrated from the above quotation. You seem to have sawdust in your skull.

Moreover, your ghostwon (aka Wtf77) and AreaFada2 ran away from me because it is too obvious that none of you Bini liars can possibly withstand me.

You Binis on Nairaland seem to have realized lately that there is no room for Benin propaganda as long as I’m around.

You’re clinging on to Ryder when he himself has discarded his own obsolete views, and when R. Horton and others have thrashed those views.

Are you afraid to read or something?? Isn’t it obvious that you’re battling cognitive dissonance??

cc: Emilokoiyawon, Omoregiek, macof, MetaPhysical, RuggedSniper, 900winer, illicit, googi.

Edeyoung:
••• All benin should read A reconsideration of benin-ife relationships by afc ryder

(1) A.F.C Ryder made it quite clear, in that same 1965 article, that his arguments were simply suggestive and hypothetical, rather than final and conclusive.

(2) In his 1969 book, A.F.C. Ryder himself later abandoned his 1965 conclusions. The historian Elizabeth Isichei, for example, confirms this fact that Ryder did in fact drift away from his 1965 suggestion in his 1969 book. She writes:
"It is noteworthy that Ryder, who questioned the Ife connection and argued the case for linkages with a northern kingdom, abandoned the line of argument in his later book, Benin and the Europeans".
— Elizabeth A. Isichei, “A History of Nigeria”, (1983), Volume 2, p. 137.

(3) Moreover, all of Ryder’s arguments were trashed one-by-one by Robin Horton in his peer-reviewed article ”Ancient Ife: A Reassessment (1979)”.

(4) Subsequently, several other scholars have as well debunked his 1965 hypothesis — which he himself have abandoned though.

(4) @Edeyoung, aka @gregyboy, learn to stop allowing your ignorance get the better part of your life.

cc: Emilokoiyawon, Omoregiek, macof, MetaPhysical, RuggedSniper, 900winer, illicit, googi.

Edeyoung:
Het TAO11 you're back
And your first comment from oblivion is an hate speech, you should be of wary hate speech has increased from 5000k to 5 million, no escape if caught
Any way we missed you you're the only yoruba that can shake the benin debators, the others are bootless fellows
Arguing with you sends someone for a research unlike your other fellow coward brothers that are scared to pick a benin history and read for themselves

So how is your research on benim history anything new, you want we benins to know,

(1) I have always been around, I was only busy flogging your brother @Prolog, aka @Ghostwon, aka @Historyworld, aka @Logycs, aka @Sanity, and aka @Wtf77 (his latest moniker) — and I flogged him into oblivion as always. Check the threads.

(2) You, — @Edeyoung, aka @gregyboy — on the other hand, are nothing but an inconsequential piece of cake for me. So, you should understand I have you in my pocket already.

There is no new propaganda about Benin kingdom that I’ve not already exposed as a falsehood. So there is no point looking for me to help you popularize your dead threads.

Moreover, even your thread here is a further evidence for the traditional account of the origin of Benin’s name from Oranmiyan’s “Ubinu”.

In other words, among all the neighboring people closely affiliated with Benin in the South (i.e. the Urhobo, the Isoko, the Ijaw, the Itsekiri, et al.); it is only the Itsekiri (a Yoruba sub-group) who called Benin by the Yoruba word — “Ubini”.

(3) Moreover, I have already demonstrated at this link that the Itsekiris are a Yoruba-subgroup, and you could not utter a word in reply to my evidence — your only reply was six dots “......”. You then proceeded to “like” your own six-dots reply using your 2nd account.

cc: Keraxes, Emilokoiyawon

Wtf77:
1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

2) the British defeated oyo without a fight

Regarding this YouTube video of Oba Akiolu’s interview, see link:

https://www.nairaland.com/6016047/ewuare-oba-benin-hails-wike/23#92400717

Provide the evidence of Oyo’s defeat by British, none exist. On the other hand, I will provide you with an evidence of Oba Ovonramwen being expelled in chains from his own kingdom.

cc: Keraxes

macof:
Will you keep the hell quiet about being in france
Nobody ask you
Many people here are abroad and nobody is bragging or looking for some kind of ass licking for that

I told you that you are a fake edo without any upbringing in the culture and hence you have no knowledge of its history
You are exposing it yourself

Please take it easy on him, as you may be the final push he needs to do the needful — that is, to delete his account as always.

Wtf77:
[s]Don't mind the fool, oyo was never an empire by the way. Oyo was a very weak country which got fvcked up by Fulani. The guy is lying on purpose[/s].

Balogunodua:
See painment

So you don't own lagos again? Now its Oyo is not an empire mr goal changer

The ba.ld ug.ly fo.ol whom you replied here has already been cancelled on all his latest lies.

I hope he comes up with fresh lies perhaps under a new disguised moniker.

I promise to fish him out, as usual, for disgrace though.

Moreover, the driest joke anyone could come up with is to imagine that Oyo was not an Empire.

The following link shows my shattering refutation of one of such jokes imagined by a certain @Yujin.

https://www.nairaland.com/5846195/benins-owners-ogboni-confraternity-olokun/24#91606482

I’m certain that he is still battling PTSD following my devastating rebuttal of his joke. /s But I know for sure that he ultimately learnt a thing or two.

Cheers!
cc: 900winer

Wtf77:
Stop focussing on language similarities. Those are subjective and meaningless. Only 2 things matter:

1) history (as written down by eyewitnesses)
2) the will of the people

I just keep wondering about the identities of these linguists who fvcked up the heads of southerners.
Even though we can read and write, our ancestors were way smarter than us.

Stop confusing bullshit said by linguists with ethnicity ! All these fake sciences are just annoying

cc: MelesZenawi, googi, keraxes, illicit, 900winer, RuggedSniper, Balogunodua, Christistruth00, MetaPhysical

Interestingly, I will base my refutation on your own criteria of the “Only 2 things [that] matter”:

(1) Quoting from the eyewitness account of Captain H.L. Gallwey’s “Journeys in the Benin Country”:

“Let me now refer briefly to the tribes that people this part of the world. First we come to the Jakris [Itsekiris], who are connected in RACE AND language with the Yoruba people, extending from the Mahin country on the west to the Forcados on the East, and inland about as far as Sapele.”

— H.L. Gallwey, “Journeys in the Benin Country, West Africa”, The Geographical Journal, Vol. 1, No. 2 (Feb., 1893), p.127.
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(2) Quoting from H. Ling Roth’s (1903) eyewitness report:

“In this respect, however, the officials agree with the tradition of the people at Warri, the Jekries [Itsekiris], WHO CLAIM to come from the west.”

— H. Ling Roth, Great Benin: Its Customs, Arts and Horrors, (1903), pp.8-9.

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Oh ye Edos, desist from lying before I single-handedly bring down your 2by2 kingdom.

cc: AreaFada2

Wtf77:
[s]For anybody reading this: I won't be replying tao12 whom is a time consuming troll. I have no time for this nonesense[/s]

ROTFLMAO!

I knew you would run away as soon as I show up.

We’ve been through this cycle severally.

Your modus operandi is always as follows:

(1) Create a disguised account using a weird moniker.

(2) Maraud around with lies using the weird moniker just to conceal your regular identity in case you get busted.

(3) Continue doing step (2) for days, weeks, months, etc. until you’re identified to be the same person as Prolog or Ghostwon.

(4) Tao gets to know about the thread, and then fishes you out for disgrace using facts, evidence, proof and reason.

(5) Delete your account and runaway.

(6) Repeat the whole process from step (1).

Cheers!

cc: 900winer, Christistruth00, macof, Balogunodua, RuggedSniper

Oh, I just noticed now that you (Wtf77) chipped in the following parts into your above comment after I had responded

(1) Talking to you is useless.

(2) You are never accountable for anything you say, the responsibility is always upon the shoulders of other people. You are just like a photocopier coupled with a liar.

(3) You make a claim and when asked to prove, you direct your finger at someone whom doesn't exist or is unavailable.

(4)You are clearly a kid playing adult. And this is my last reply to you and your lack of common sense and logics

(1) Why does this sound like you’re about to do the needful. In other words, delete your account and run away as usual after being terribly flogged.

(2) Yes, whenever you make a claim (especially an historical claim), you don’t stick out your chest and present yourself as the evidence or authority.

No, you have to cite your source; or cite an academic work wherein the source was cited, etc.

You are by yourself a nobody in this field. Okay? Good boy.

(3) I am yet to see you provide any evidence to demonstrate that I have ever cited a non-existent source. I am gladly and patiently waiting on this.

(4) Like I always say, ocean of tears and sorrow do not deserve my refutation. It is by itself self-refuting.

Now do the needful as expected. In other words, delete your account as always, and run away for being exposed as a de.lu.ded insecure my.tho.ma.niac.

Wtf77:
1) French is my first language
2) I have studied in France from primary school to masters degree.
3) I write books in french
4) I teach high school students in France

Look, this is just an other proof of the fact you tao11 are a liar and an ignorant always assuming person.

Oh good that French is your first language and not Edo.

Perhaps that is why you wouldn’t pinpoint even a single inaccuracy in my translation which I got from two independent sources whose first language is French, and who are students in one of the world’s finest English-speaking university.

The most you did about my translation was to throw tantrum as usual, and then childishly request others to ignore the translation. LMAO.

That’s very laughable. I wish such childish request will appeal to the sane readers as a refutation of the translation. I so wish.

Anyways, I don’t buy any of your ‘France-insecurities’. France seems to be the beginning and end of your “achievements“ and “success”.

In any case, Benin kingdom is what I’m asking you to defend, not France.

Wtf77:
For the last time. I have provided proof of everything I claimed:

Debunked with evidence. Even Oba Akiolu of Lagos debunked this falsehood in the full video as I have demonstrated.

2) Oba is a Benin word which means king of kings.

False! “Oba” has no meaning in any Edo language as it is a loan term from Yoruba. I have established this repeatedly.

Otherwise, tell us what part of the supposed Benin word “Oba” represent “King” and what other part represents “Kings”.

Moreover, explain how your fraudulent meaning of “Oba” would fit into the phrase “Omo N’Oba”.

Once a thing is proven, it can no longer be debated.

Yes, except that it is I who have been debunking your delusions and causing you to delete all your numerous accounts. I am able to do that only because I stand on the side on truth, evidence, proof, and reason.

[s]Also, I see that tao11 is basically just trolling. Insulting me because he actually doesn't want an intelligent discussion he would much rather have a discussion on sentiments and have me lose focus. He doesn't want me to expose his lies. Also notice he took about 4 days to come up with his new set of lies.

Needless to say he doesn't speak French and the document which I shared is in french. So everybody should disregard his new fake translations and his comments about the book. None of it is true.

And of course notice as tao11 continues to quote imaginary books with no link towards them nor any caption. Both are needed to prove he is not doing his usual business of telling lies and they are also needed in order to scrutinize the documents if the documents do exist.

I and others have caught him several times in the passed saying a lot of ignorant rubbish and we have corrected him several times.
All he specialises in is making long comments full with fake logics, fake statements and unsubstantiated claims. Wasting the time of whomever is talking to him. This can be seen with the quoting of books of which he doesn't provide a link and caption. The aim is to avoid the scrutini of whomever he sees as his opponent and also to make that person waste time and effort. Also the book might just be the fruit of his imagination.[/s]

Like I use to say, ocean of tears and sorrows does not need to be refuted. It is by it self self-refuting.

So people, here it is:

1) I provided a link to the books which I quoted.
2) I provided captions to the parts of the books which I quoted.
3) I gave a dispassionate translation of the quotes instead of trying to push any agenda into it (contrary to the yoruba who all gave false translations and tried to push in their agenda)

I am 100% transparent. Nothing to hide.

I wish everybody could say the same.

I obviously would never have asked you to buy me any book, or fetch me any link. All you had to do to meet your burden of proof is to substantiate whatever claims you make with relevant statements which are duly referenced to relevant materials.

Most importantly, all the materials you provided turned out to contain statements which are opposites to your insecure propaganda.

I have provided a translation from two independent persons whose first language is French. I am inclined to thinking that Edo/Benin is your own first language, Isn’t it?

Moreover, for the sake of context, my translation included the prior page (page 25) which you are dead-scared of because you understood that it was the beginning of the end for your delusions.

As always, you are finished. I am however waiting on you to do the needful — that is, the very thing you always do whenever you have no hiding place no more. Delete your account and run away.

Wtf77:
precolonial maps of Benin Kingdom:

Some of the maps:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b77595185.r=Benin?rk=21459;2

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7759521n.r=Benin?rk=21459;2

An other map of Benin made in the 17th century once again:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b530530714.r=Benin?rk=214593;2

An other map of Benin from the 17th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8595583b.r=Benin?rk=193134;0

This one date to the 19th century:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b846939

This following map was made between 1603 and 1612:
https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/64869/africae-tabula-nova-ortelius


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvaiC_djW8o

This has already be debunked at my comment found at the following link.

https://www.nairaland.com/6016047/ewuare-oba-benin-hails-wike/23#92400717

Wtf77:
For the last time. I have provided proof of everything I claimed:

1) Lagos belongs to Benin.

Debunked with evidence. Even Oba Akiolu of Lagos debunked this falsehood in the full video as I have demonstrated.

2) Oba is a Benin word which means king of kings.

False! “Oba” has no meaning in any Edo language as it is a loan term from Yoruba. I have established this repeatedly.

Otherwise, tell us what part of the supposed Benin word “Oba” represent “King” and what other part represents “Kings”.

Moreover, explain how your fraudulent meaning of “Oba” would fit into the phrase “Omo N’Oba”.

Once a thing is proven, it can no longer be debated.

Yes, except that it is I who have been debunking your delusions and causing you to delete all your numerous accounts. I am able to do that only because I stand firmly on the side on truth, evidence, proof, and reason.

[s]Also, I see that tao11 is basically just trolling. Insulting me because he actually doesn't want an intelligent discussion he would much rather have a discussion on sentiments and have me lose focus. He doesn't want me to expose his lies. Also notice he took about 4 days to come up with his new set of lies.

Needless to say he doesn't speak French and the document which I shared is in french. So everybody should disregard his new fake translations and his comments about the book. None of it is true.

And of course notice as tao11 continues to quote imaginary books with no link towards them nor any caption. Both are needed to prove he is not doing his usual business of telling lies and they are also needed in order to scrutinize the documents if the documents do exist.

I and others have caught him several times in the passed saying a lot of ignorant rubbish and we have corrected him several times.
All he specialises in is making long comments full with fake logics, fake statements and unsubstantiated claims. Wasting the time of whomever is talking to him. This can be seen with the quoting of books of which he doesn't provide a link and caption. The aim is to avoid the scrutini of whomever he sees as his opponent and also to make that person waste time and effort. Also the book might just be the fruit of his imagination.[/s]

Like I use to say. ocean of tears and sorrows do not need to be refuted. It is by it self self-refuting.

So people, here it is:
1) I provided a link to the books which I quoted.
2) I provided captions to the parts of the books which I quoted.
3) I gave a dispassionate translation of the quotes instead of trying to push any agenda into it (contrary to the yoruba who all gave false translations and tried to push in their agenda)

I am 100% transparent. Nothing to hide.

I wish everybody could say the same.

I obviously would never have asked you to buy me any book, or fetch me any link. All you had to do to meet your burden of proof is to substantiate whatever claims you make with relevant statements which are duly referenced to relevant materials.

Most importantly, all the materials you provided turned out to contain statements which are opposites to your insecure propaganda.

I have provided a translation from two independent persons whose first language is French. I am inclined to thinking that Edo/Benin is your own first language, Isn’t it?

Moreover, for the sake of context, my translation included the prior page (page 25) which you are dead-scared of because you understood that it was the beginning of the end for your delusions.

As always, you are finished. I am however waiting on you to do the needful — that is, the very thing you always do whenever you have no hiding place no more. Delete your account and run away.

Reply 7 of 7 to Wtf77:

cc: 900winer, Christistruth00, macof, RuggedSniper

Appendix:

The Lagos traditional account (which was first documented more than fifty years before Chief Egharevba’s contrary Benin account) states clearly that:

(1) The settling down of the Binis into Lagos was — like the settling of other immigrant groups — via peaceful infiltration.

(2) Ashipa (the founder of the present Eleko dynasty) was an Awori chief, of Ife royal descent, from Isheri.

(3) Ashipa sought the support of the Benin government in the course of the kingship tussle, in Lagos Island, among the eligible Awori princes.

(4) He emerged triumphant as the choice candidate with the support of the Benin government. He thus became the progenitor of the present Eleko dynasty.

(5) His son, Ado who succeeded him, was born to him by his Bini wife. Ado lived in Benin until it was his time to become king in Lagos.

(6) As a reenactment of the original support enjoyed by Ashipa from the Benin government, subsequent heir apparent to the throne were confirmed by the Benin king.

(7) The custom of tributes to Benin kingdom from the Lagos dynasty is therefore understood in the light of the support enjoyed by Ashipa from the Benin government, which in effect gave his descendants the exclusive right to the throne.

(8 ) Actual Benin-‘conquered’ territories (regardless of their ethnic and linguistic origin) always have one of the following as the title of their kings: Ogie, Ogiame, Enogie, Onojie, Ovie, Orodje, et al. This was never the case with Lagos.

(9) The custom which developed of taking the bodies of late Elekos to Benin for burial, while retaining their severed heads in Lagos emphasizes two things, namely:

— (I) Political and maternal connection of the Elekos with Benin (considering the resting place of their bodies), and

— (II) The land of the Elekos’ paternal origin being Lagos (considering the resting place of their heads).

(10) This foregoing point compares nicely with the burial custom of taking the severed heads of late Benin kings to Ife (emphasizing paternal origin); while their bodies is retained in Benin (emphasizing maternal/political connection).

Reply 6 of 7 to Wtf77:

cc: 900winer, Christistruth00, macof, RuggedSniper

In the light of the above background (i.e.: the history of European coastal trading activities, as well as the 1603 eyewitness account of Ulsheimer), the actual meaning of your author’s statement about the domination of different parts of Lagos by different immigrant groups (such as Benin, Ijebu, Ijaw, Egun, et al.) should at this point have sank deep into your cra.nium. Hopefully.

Moreover, the third paragraph (of the translated page 26) of your author's statements mentions that the isolated piece of land that was left to the Binis, after the Ijebu had seized their earlier domain, continued to be dependent on Benin for its choice of ”governor or political leader”.

As is expected, you de.lu.ded.ly twisted this specific statement of your author to say something else — that is: to say that the Oba of Benin chooses the incoming kings of Lagos.

On the contrary, your author clearly chose his words carefully by writing “governor or political leader”, rather than writing “king” or "monarch".

The word for “king” or “monarch” of course exists in the French language if that was what the author meant or intended.

In fact, your author could never have used “roi” (French for ‘king’) or “monarque” (French for ‘monarch’), etc. here as that would be anachronistic and counter-historical.

This is due to the simple fact that your author is here describing a period of time in Lagos when the present dynasty of Lagos Island Kings (The Eleko dynasty) hadn't yet begun.

For corroboration of your authors description here, Ulsheimer’s 1603 Lagos visit did witness the Binis in Lagos being led and coordinated by their leaders who were appointed on them, from Benin, by their Oba.

Asheru was one of such leaders of the Binis whose name have managed to come down to posterity. The Eleko kingship dynasty, on the other hand, wasn't established by Ashipa until many years later — towards the end of the 1600s.

These leaders of the Binis are known, from Benin accounts, by the title Olotu-Ado, or Olotu-Ekiran, or Balekale; and they were also found in other parts of Yorubaland wherever the Binis settled to establish resident trading communities.

Lastly, you lied very blatantly and and unashamedly when you remarked that “Benin” was the Lagos' metropolis or Lagos' mainland that your author referred to when he noted that “Korame [i.e. Eko (or Lagos Island)] and its mainland were linked, in the past, by the spit of land between the great lagoon and the sea”.

Can you please demonstrate to everyone (from the map below or any Lagos map of your choice) how “Lagos Island” (i.e. Eko or ‘Korame’) could have possibly been connected by any such spit of land to "Benin"?? Liar!

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12050975_c2310eb2b5d244298c887c1743eaeb26_jpeg_jpegc6697de82c3d2f532bb31dc49629ecaa

Rather, it is obvious — from the foregoing map — to every sane person that, the said erstwhile land link/connection is clearly that which would have existed between “Lagos Island” (i.e. ‘Eko’ or ‘Korame’) and its metropolis/mainlands to its left.

Reply 5 of 7 to Wtf77:

cc: 900winer, Christistruth00, macof, RuggedSniper

The first three paragraphs (of the translated page 26 ) of your author’s statements mention that “Eko” was named as such by the Ijebus, and that they settled there by seizing the area from the Binis whose domain it was -- thus pushing the Binis to an end.

Furthermore, the third and fourth paragraphs (of the same translated page) of your author’s statements indicate that the “Awani”/“Ahoni” [Awori] land is not limited to "Eko".

It shows that all the lands to the west of "Eko" is Awori land as well, and that these western Awani/Ahoni [Awori] lands are in the hands of the Egun people.

It appears then from all of these that Eko and the other Awori lands to its west were at some point occupied by different non-aboriginal peoples such as: the Binis, the Ijebus, the Ijaws, the Eguns, et al.

Having clarified this, it is noteworthy to mention the circumstances which led the different immigrant groups (i.e. the Binis, the Ijebus, the Ijaws, the Eguns, et al.) to be attracted to settling in Lagos at some point in the course of Lagos’ history.


The history of the coming of the Europeans to the coasts of West Africa in the late-1400s is the key factor in this regards. From the opening years of the 1500s, European coastal traders established more and more trading locations along the Atlantic coasts of West Africa.

These European coastal trading activities, particularly those of Lagos, grew considerably in the course the 1500s, and it thus attracted the key participants of the coastal trade to establish resident trade settlements in Lagos.

According to Professor S.A. Akintoye, the following are all the non-Awori participants of the Lagos coastal trade who, by the late 1500s, had established sizeable resident trading communities in Lagos: “Ijebu, Benin, Ilaje, Ikale, Owo, Egba, Egbado, Aja [Egun], and Ijaw”. — S.A. Akintoye, (2010), p.221.

A quite corroborative early account to the above information is provided by a German named Andreas Joshua Ulsheimer who visited “Lagos” in the year 1603. He has the following to say about the nature of the Lagos economy, as well as the diversity of the trade participants:

“Many people come to the aforesaid town Lago, by water and by land, with their wares, which consist of beautiful cotton cloths woven in all kinds of colours and patterns.”

— See: Andreas Ulsheimer, "Voyage of 1603-4", Translation by Adam Jones in German Sources for West African History, 1599-1699 (1983), p.41.


Moreover, the same Ulsheimer’s account shows that as at the year 1603, the Binis living in Lagos had already secured a domain (”surrounded by a strong fence”) to themselves “on an island“ ~ p.40.

Again, this quite clearly corroborates the above information that the Binis had settled in Lagos (for trading) prior to the 1600s.

Reply 4 of 7 to Wtf77:

cc: 900winer, Christistruth00, macof, RuggedSniper.

Having discussed the nuances of the name “Lagos”, I will proceed now with examining the author’s statements in order to expose you for the de.lu.ded ignora.mus and myt.homa.niac that you are.

Firstly, the author showed on page 25 (citing Robertson, Denys Bonnaventure, Palissot de Beauvois, Landolph, et al.) that the earliest known indigenous name of this “Lagos” settlement (later called “Eko”) was — in the Europeans’ renditions — ”Awani” or ”Ahony” amongst other foreign renderings.

While this name (as it appear in European rendition) clearly has nothing to do with the name “Edo” or the name “Benin”; it obviously has everything to do with the indigenous name “Awori” — the name of a Yoruba sub-group.

In fact, this indigenous name (i.e. Awori) is firmly established in "the early traditions of Lagos” to be the name of the aboriginal owners of Lagos.

— See: Sir Alan Burns, “History of Nigeria”, (1929), pp.33-34; based on J.B. Losi, "History of Lagos”, (1914); Rev. J.B. Wood, “Historical Notes of Lagos”, (1878); all cited in Robert S. Smith, “Kingdoms of the Yoruba”, (1988 Edition), p.73.


In sum: even according to your French author, the aboriginal ownership of “Lagos” (Eko) has nothing to do with the name “Benin” nor with the name “Edo”.

Neither does it also have anything to do with the names “Ijebu”, “Ijaw”, or “Egun” among others. Eko is clearly Awori land aboriginally.


In that case, the later presence of the Ijebus and the Binis et al. in Eko in the course of its history must therefore be understood in the proper historical light which, as has been shown, is obviously other than autochthonous ownership.

Reply 3 of 7 to Wtf77:

cc: 900winer, Christistruth00, macof, RuggedSniper.

Just like historians will concede, history goes far beyond European or written accounts, even though this obvious fact may baffle a naïve and feeble mind like yours -- and despite your world of contradictions. Lol.

In fact, history encompasses inputs from relevant extant oral accounts, linguistics, archaeology, etc. In other words, those statements of your author which obviously comes from extant oral accounts are yet valid as is.

My contention at this point, however, is that those statements of the author do not even in the least way support your false propaganda that the Binis (and not the Aworis themselves) are the rightful owner of Lagos.

Before proceeding with my examination of the authors’ statements here, it is vital that I state clearly that the name “Lagos” have referred to different geographical delineations throughout the course of its history.

For example, when describing what is known today as the state, the name “Lagos” would refer to all of the area within the map perimeter traced out in purple ink as shown below.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12050947_9adc7e2daab841ca9bf2ee2e721e74c7_png180a2b9f34e7596948f3957e0d1afeda

Furthermore, when describing what is known today as the metropolitan area, the name “Lagos” would refer only to the area within the map perimeter traced out in purple ink below. In other words, excluding: Badagry LGA, Epe LGA, Ibeju-Lekki LGA, Ikorodu LGA, and Eti-Osa East LCDA.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12050948_f42d30c8e8db492a8e53aaaa21e18287_png5ddb2995a0b1f4c35967fb437efbfde6

Moreover, when describing the city known historically and traditionally to the Yoruba people as Èkó, the name “Lagos” would refer quite exclusively to one of the islands now known as Lagos Island. See the annotation "Lagos Island” on each of the two maps below for the delineation.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12050975_c2310eb2b5d244298c887c1743eaeb26_jpeg_jpegc6697de82c3d2f532bb31dc49629ecaa

www.nairaland.com/attachments/12050976_98201bd2e3bd4ea5a4c3d397a0b1cdda_png4a7febb890c7af3ea742042f204e7b5c

Reply 2 of 7 to Wtf77:

cc: 900winer, Christistruth00, macof, RuggedSniper.

Regarding your gRoUnDbReAkInG 1846 French book , the key statements of the author which you’ve clung to in order to make your point are those specific statements which he obviously received from oral sources, rather than from any referenced earlier written work.

In other words, your author relied on an oral account which supposedly informed him that the area of ‘Lagos’ which — in his day — was occupied by the Ijebus used to belong, in the distant past, to the Binis prior to when it was dispossessed from them by the Ijebus.

Given this observation, I now wonder if you will honor your oft-repeated mindless eYeWiTnEsS gibberish by discarding your French book as trash, since its specific statements with which you seem to be supporting your propaganda are those which obviously relate to an event from many, many years prior to the author’s own 1846 work.

Moreover, how do you even keep a straight face while — on one hand — accepting this orally transmitted account which your author was not an eyewitness to, and yet — on another hand — rejecting other extant oral accounts because they are too obvious as being against your propaganda?? Lol.

How convenient is it for you to believe your own insinuation that the Ijebus forced the Binis to give up their supposedly ancestral and aboriginal piece of land?? Lol.

Having unveiled your grand stu.pi.di.ty, your ignorance, and your world of contradiction; I will now proceed to demonstrate — piece-by-piece — how all of the author’s statements here (whether those he referenced to earlier writings, or those he obviously received from oral accounts) have absolutely nothing to do with your false, baseless, and weird idea that the Binis (and not the Aworis themselves) are the rightful owner of Lagos.

Reply 1 of 7 to Wtf77:

cc: 900winer, Christistruth00, macof, RuggedSniper, MetaPhysical.

The following shows a clear and faithful translation of your French screenshot (page 26).

I have also included its preceding page (page 25) for a wider context:

Page 25

The Yebou [Ijebu]* country is, generally speaking, located between Dahome [Dahomey] on the west, Bénin [Benin] on the east, the Gulf of Guinea [a bay of the Atlantic Ocean] in the south, and the Eyo [Oyo]* country in the north. These limits can be identified along the shore.

The city of Lagos is its western border. Lagos is the common name given by Europeans; according to Robertson, Awani is the local name. It was spelt Onis by Denys Bonnaventure and several early navigators, Aunis by Palissot de Beauvois and Landolph, and Ahony by De Flotte; a few others spelt it as Honis*; Captain Horseley

Page 26

referred to it as Eco [Eko], and that is how it was designated by the Yebous [Ijebus]; but it is not their domain: it is the Benin’s, who refer to it by the name Korame [which is] recognizably the Curamo of the old Portuguese’s accounts, just as Eko represents the Dutch hydrographers’ Ichoo.

Korame and its mainland were linked, in the past, by the spit between the great lagoon and the sea. The Yebou people have, however, for a long time seized that spit of land which has also been infiltrated by Ouyo [? Ijaw] pirates in the east.

Korame thus remained isolated at the end of the great lagoon, and continued to be dependent on Benin for its choice of governor or political leader. The name “Awanee” of Robertson describes the neighboring lands to the west — rendered Agouani by Ochi Fekoue.

[These lands to the west, i.e. “Ahony”] included with Arada [Ardra], Agbadaghi (the Badagry of English maps), Vida [Whydah] (Whidda for English traders, and Juida for French traders) and other more distant places, are in the hands of the Igou [Egun] nation — including Mahi and Dagome (the local name for the Dahomey country).

The eastern border of Yebou [Ijebu], on the ocean, is the city of Omaha whose position is marked but without