₦airaland Forum

@ dearzi,

You're back, and you can't call?? sha! that aside! that the scripture was referring to a Bishop doesn't necessarily mean it's only Bishops that need to be married--every person in the position of leadership has to show example with his own home! so you suggest a pastor be single as well? for how long? is Okotie a Eunuch? who will counsel the single, Hot sisters out to bring shame to his door?? is that not where the wife comes in? shouldn't he minister to men, and a female minister to ladies? which is what most wives of pastora do--see to the welfare etc of both pastor and ministry.

Call I will when I am Led !!!!!!!! Anyway, to answer your questions or are they accusations!!! At least you agree the scripture is addressed to a Bishop. May I advice you never to go beyond what has been written? There is nothing within the context that suggests that the scripture should be directly applied to a Pastor, and even if it does, I have made clear that it does not fit the situation that you are quick to apply it to. I do not suggest for pastors to be single, but Jesus did mention that some will become eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom, and Paul actually encouraged people to be eunuchs like himself. There are lots of people within the church who are trained and are in the position to counsel young ladies when the issue is sex. There are other ministers and assistants within the church, and from what I know, his most visible assistants are 2 married women. By the way, where in the scripture does the Bible assign that role to a Pastor's wife? Rather, the scripture says the older women in the church are the ones to teach the young women. Please stay within the scripture or else you just find yourself ventilating your personal opinion which in this case is contrary to the bible.

You're so quick to judge his wife--is it not his side of the story we know? the man is constantly telling people his own side, i'm sure you will say he has nothing to hide! yeah right! to me, there's more than meets the eye! the bible clearly rejects divorce. Matthew lets us know that it's only in the case of fornication/ adultery you can put away your spouse, otherwise scripture plainly tells us that "God hates putting away! aka divorce" does the same scripture not say "do not despise the wife of thy youth?" doesn't God know how to reach a recalictrant spouse? that He will so graciously allow Okotie chase out his wife? please! i don't think he was doing the way of the master when he put her out! e-wife or not!

I am not quick to judge his wife for any reasons. Like I told you before, Okotie and Teena are very accessible people. One of my good friends is close to Teena and are in touch often by phone. She confirms everything that Okotie said and it is only her words that I have stated. Maybe your Pastors and people you know tell lies as a hobby and are just deceitful, but the Okotie I have known is far from that. He is know to be truthful to a fault and to speak what he believes no matter whose toe he steps on. Maybe you also need to understand that Teena is helping him out here to do the limited ministry work he requires. Okotie's life has been lived in the open to both the church and the public. Unlike some Pastor who lives and pastors here in naija and whose wife lives and pastors in europe while trying to deceive the rest of us that all is well, he is absolutely not like that.

Maybe you need to read the scriptures in matthew that you are quoting. The case of Okotie is not about a Man putting away His wife, but of a wife saying I am no longer interested. I hope you understand that marriage is actually a representation of the union between Christ and the church. If that is so, then you will kow that Christ cannot put any of us away, but we can by our own choice decide not to have Him as a part of our lives. This is like waht happened here. i say this not to make Teena look bad, but that is the reality.

For a smart guy, and one so familiar with the scripture, your arguments baffle me! i think you're clearly taken in by this guy! and you've chopped his whole theology hook, line and sinker! aint nobody persecuting Okotie! what is persecution sef? that we don't want him for president?? did you not see/ read of persecution in your Bible? people were killed and stuff for Christ, not spoken against for running for president! plus, last time i checked, we were a democratic country--and hey! we can say whatever pleases us! (hopefully we can get away with it!)

evey thing I've stated here are not okotie's theology but what I see the scriptures advocate. If anything, I've heard him encourage people not even to chase out an adulterous woman because the spirit of the New Testament encourages forgiveness at all level. Is your definition of persecution limited only to bodily harm? The only reason why many just dont want to give him a chance is because h is a minister of christ. They choose to ignore the fact that he is better equipped to handle the affairs of state than many of those parading themselves. He has a plan, a manifesto and he has articulated this well over time. The sermon on the mount acknowledges that when people say all manner of evil about you for his name's sake, then you are qualified to be called a persecuted.

As for the case of David and Solomon, they sure were men of God, and we can see they were HEAVILY married, and ruled over much! with wisdom! at this point, i'm not saying Okotie shouldn't run, let him start on a smaller scale, his church is too small, let him increase in members, then run for other things before setting his eyes on the national seat! in the mean time, he should get married--i'm sure they are some ladies who don't mind all the gramar, and won't mind the hair grease!
One last thing, he should let go of all that big English--it don't fool nobody, except people who are easily impressed by such grandiose! Paul said When i came unto you, i didn't come with Eloquence of man's wisdom (big big gramar) but with demonstration of the Spirit and Power--of which i've not seen Okotie do either! "SELAH!"

So he should go and marry more than one wife to be qualified like david and solomon? For your information, the only qualification David needed to rule isreal was to be a shepherd, and the only qualification that joseph needed was to be a chief servant in his master's house. The principle of governance is the same everywhere, whether the people are a 100 or 100,000. Oyedepo today is not just learning what it takes to administer a big church. That wisdom has always been there even when the church was 10. I have corrected you before that a church grows only has God wills. Numeric growth does not equate to godly growth. Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world today, but that does not make it a godly religion. The tower of babel was built with the aid of men without the Spirit of God. You have no point.

Why should he drop his elevated diction? That is his style, and he still gets his message through to those who care to listen. In Household are many who can't even speak staight english but are still blessed by his message. Grow up and stop majoring on the minor while minoring on the major!!!!

@ ajia23,

Apology accepted. And for the records, you need to read my entire response to isaho to understand why I refered to mlks_baby. I just wanted to show that he came to the wrong conlusions about what he had to say.

@ajia23

@mlks babe,
I am touched by the death of your boyfriend, please accept my sincere condolence. I can really see from your postings that men,this lady has a passionate hatred for Islam and the Muslims

Am I reading incorrectly or you are the one not reading well at all. This is a direct accusation of hatred at the young lady. How you interprete this to say that Isaho wasn't accusing mlks_baby of hatred just beats my imagination.

This is an open forum where anyone can respond to anything posted here. mlks_baby is my flesh and bone (like every christian), and I have every right to defend her especially if she is being mis-represented. You may be blind to Isaho's accusation, but I am not.

@mrlawng,

A man that cannot put his house in order the bible says, should not be allowed to lead in any capacity. He is not leadership material for Nigeria. Thats my opinion.

A contextual reading of the portion of the Bible you are trying to quote here shows that you have completely "murdered" the scripture.  I am little surprised because a lot of people just pick and try to apply the Bible out of context.  This is especially so in a case where you have already taken a position and you want to maintain that position by every means available. 

Find the scriptures here in its full context: 1 Timothy 3:1-7 1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.   I hope you now se that the scripture actually refers to a Bishop.  A Bishop is a Church Administrator or servant who DESIRES to serve in that capacity within a local assembly.  This is different from a Pastor who is CALLED to serve in that position.  Besides, the emphasis here is on the behavior of the children and not even the wife.

With respect to Okotie, I am sure you have chosen to ignore the fact that the primary reason his wife sought a divorce was because she felt she wasn't in a position to fulfil the role of a wife any more.  She never wants to step into Nigeria ever again because of the harrowing experiences she and her family have had in the country.  Okotie had the choice of either leaving his calling to Pastor in Nigeria, or join his wife in the united States (you know there is nothing like e-wife).  He chose the latter.  His decision to follow his Master meant he had to lose his wife.  That is just one of the marks of the Lord Jesus he carries in his body.

As far as I see, it is of people like Okotie that Jesus said in Mark 10: 29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, OR WIFE, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.    

I am sure you must be happy that you are fulfilling scripture to the full by being one of those providing the persecutions that Jesus talked about here.  SELAH.

Going through most of the earlier posts, I am amazed by the number of Christians who practice tithing, but have no clue why they do.  No doubt, there is the express command to tithe, but many do not know God's reasons and His mindset with regards to this sacred practice.  Permit me to share with you my thoughts as I believe it is revealed in the scriptures.  I must acknowledge that most of my submissions are taken from Chris Okotie's book "The Last Outcast".

Let us begin by tracing the origin of tithing.  Tithing did not begin with the law of Moses, it was only introduced into the law because tithing has to do with priesthood.  Whenever you have a priesthood, tithing will be involved.  There are two sacred orders of the priesthood as revealed in the scriptures.  The first is that of Melchizedek and the other is the levitical priesthood.  The Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek sandwiches the levitical priesthood.  While the levitical priesthood is found only in the dispensation of the law, the order of Melchizedek is introduced in the dispensations of Promise and of Grace.  Therefore tithing is consistent even in the evolution of the priesthood.

Now, a closer study of the Book of Hebrews reveals that a Priest performs two main functions: 1. Offer of Gifts  and, 2. Offer of sacrifices.  (see Hebrews 5:1, 8:3 and 9:9).  The question now is, what gifts should a Priest offer?  And what sacrifices should a Priest offer?   I do not believe there is any controversy over the sacrifices offered under both priesthood.  In the levitical priesthood, the sacrifices was the daily offering of the blood of animals while in the Melchizedek priesthood, the sacrifice of blood was offered once and for all through the death of the High Priest Himself - Christ Jesus.  The gifts to be offered is what I will now deal with subsequently.

As Abram was returning from the slaughter of the five kings, a priest of God called Melchizedek came out to meet him.  He approached Abram holding the emblems of the covenant which God had made with Abram - the bread and the wine.  Up until that time, Abram had not labored to acquire wealth by his own strength.  Since he had concquered the kings, he could keep the spoils for himself but God had to teach his servant some lessons in humility and spiritual truth.

Melchizedek, upon meeting Abram blessed him and decalred that God was the possessor of heaven and earth and was responsible for Abram's victory.  Thereafter, it is written that Abram gave a tenth of the spoils to the priest.  The name Abram refers to one who is the father of heights.  It is a picture of a vertical position of pride, so Melchizedek had to remind him that there is one who is the Most High.

Melchizedek called God the possessor.  That word in the original language, speaks of God as the creator.  Since He created all things, He is the primary owner of all things.  Abraham must have thought of the creation story on hearing this.  In the first chapter of Genesis, God spoke ten commands.  These are usually refered to as the Ten Commandments of Creation or the Divine Decalogue.  Now, of the ten commands, only one (a tenth) was addressed to man directly.  Therefore, if Abram was to identify directly with God's creation, he would have to demonstrate that by identifying with the particular command that affects him as a creature of God.  When he gave one-tenth of his spoils to Melchizedek, he declared that God is the creator and therefore, the primary owner of all things and he acknowledged that he is a part of God's creation.  This in essence explains the mystery of the tithe.  The fact that this tenth was carried over into the levitical priesthood suggests that Abram gave the exact percentage that God required of him and each one of his creation.

It may interest you to know that when Paul talks about this event in the Book of Hebrews, he throws more light on the transaction between Abraham and Melchizedek.  In the 7th chapter, Paul telss us that Abram gave the tenth of the spoils to the priest.  The Greek word AKROTHINION, translated spoils in the 4th verse, refers to the topmost part of a heap.  In the days of Abra, the booty was usually arranged in heaps with the hard things placed at the bottom while the most delicate and expensive things were placed on the top.  Abram did not just give God a tenth, he gave a tenth from the topmost part, where the best things were.  He was therefore saying to God that he not only belongs to Him as a creature, but that he was the best part of His creation.  In other words, our tithes tell God what we think of oursleves as his handiwork.

I hope this helps someone out there.

ISAHO
@mlks babe,
I am touched by the death of your boyfriend, please accept my sincere condolence. I can really see from your postings that men,this lady has a passionate hatred for Islam and the Muslims. But i would like to say categorically that though your boyfriend died in the war in iraq, Islam and the muslims wouldn`t have been responsible to the untimely death.

Like i said in my earlier posting we should learn to respect other people`s views especially on religion. I wont fail to let you know that i salute your intelligence for your studies in both religions but i think you can do more than that like making people understand your view without making them look stupid for their beliefs.

Once again, may the gentle soul of your boyfriend rest in peace.

@ajia,
I enjoy your calm responses, you actually gave what you know and it`s in no where in your postings short of the Islamic teachings. My own understanding of the Quran about the world population is that there are three types of people, i) the Unbelivers, ii) the Believers and iii) the Hypocrites which constitute the larger population of the world, the Quran says alot about them and how they perpetrate their evils against the believers that is why today Islam suffers the pains of their misrepresentations.

But thanks to people like you who will come out to make the difference known to the world over.

Keep it up, May Allah reward you abundantly.

@TayoD,

I don't mean any harm, but i personally don't like your style. It is your type that can bring another Osama Bin Laden or cause another religious war. You use mlks babe as a shield to achieve your hidden motive which totally negate the motive you stated while beginning this debate. But i believe next time you will make amends because the Sky is very big to accommodate the birds to fly without touching each other.

@IG,

Your contributions actually mend the debate from derailing and retraced it back to the anticipated point of dicussion.

@nuru,

I took your silence not to be because you don't know what to say but because you had to take that bold and civilised step after you were being chickened out by the insult that your IQ was too low for the debate which nobody will tolerate.

I salute your boldness.

And to others that made their contribution. Well done all.

@ISAHO,

I find it difficult to understand how you came about your conclusions for each individual you listed here.  I am particularly confused by what you had to say about mlks_baby.  Are you implying that she hates Islam and Moslems?  If that is your assumption, then I think you need to go back and read her posts again.   

With regards to my humble self, I have no problem if you do not like my style, but at least, you can not claim I mis-represented the scriptures.  I have not hidden behind mlks_baby under any guise, her style is just different than mine.  Being born-again does not mean we all conform to one personality.  Our personalities are still maintained within the new creation that God has made us. 

I want to believe you are just joking by the Osama statement you made.  You have succesfully suggested thereby, that Osama Bin Ladin may not be responsible afterall for all the bloodshed he carried out.   Is that what Islam teaches?  That one's actions can be justified by the action or otherwise of others?  Osama Bin Ladin is a product of the teachings of Islam and Mohammed, and if you are concerned about more people becoming like him, then you need to point them to Jesus so they can learn how to deal with oppression and injustice.  If Osama and his likes have been exposed to the teachings of Jesus such as: Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves., then I believe he wouldn't be the kind of person that he is today.

I find it difficult to come up with any similarity between Jesus and Mohammed, or Jesus and any individual for that matter. My reasoning is based on what Jesus claimed of Himself. I don't think anyone comes close to these: John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. John 10 - 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

I can't claim to know much about Mohammed, but I know he can't claim to being One with the Father, nor can he claim to give life to his followers and neither can he arrogate to himself the honour of beign called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Based on these, I find absolutely no similarites between both individuals.

@ajia23

Anyhow, what is a surety however, is that in many verses of the Quran, God says, I am One and Only. Now since this is unambiguously stated and emphasised, I would rather we left the matter that seems to be in conflict and settle for a very clear one. Or what would you do in a similar real life situation?  I am tired of going round in circles.

Can we settle for the same conclusion with regards to the Bible where it is mentioned unequivocally that the God we serve is one?Mark 12:29 - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:  Mark 12:32 - And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:  1 Corinthians 8:6 - But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.   Galatians 3:20 - Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Ephesians 4:6 - One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Thanks all for keeping this thread going. I have been away to nigeria on vacation for the past 2 weeks. I should become more active on the thread now.

"Religion supports nobody. It has to be supported. It produces no wheat, no corn; it ploughs no land; it fells no forests. It is a perpetual mendicant. It lives on the labors of others, and then has the arrogance to pretend that it supports the giver" - Robert G. Ingersoll

The above quotatiopn was submitted by Ijebuman. Tell me, do you still believe this quote despite the innovative business ventures that Chris Oyhaks and other ministries in Nigeria are involved with? Or would you rather have the church remain a beggar and have to beg and beg its members and non-believers alike in order to raise the necesary funds for its own needs? I think people just believe the church should be a poor institution and they have a problem when they see that the church is affluent.

Personally, I have my beef with Pastor Chris since the day he started fraternising with T.B. Joshua. However, I must commend him for this innovative step if it is true. We have been called as light of the world, and that means we must be doing things that others will see and follow. The Church is to be involved in ever facet of our lives, economic to political. We are meant to be pacesetters and that is what I see him doing.

For the critics, what would you prefer he does with the money he has available? Bank it in Switzerland? This is money well-spent and it is sure to help our economy. The church is beginning to enter into the prophetic status that has been foretold in the scriptures. We are told that we will lend to nations, and I believe the time is coming when nations will be coming to the church to ask for loan to help their economy. Mark my words on that.

I have no problem with the Church paying taxes. Infact, it is scriptural to do just that since Jesus comanded us to "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and give unto God what is God's." Paying taxes will not make us less prosperous, but it will rather make us even more prosperous because it is a direct obedience to God's command, and obedience brings prosperity.

As mentioned by others on this thread, the church set up schools in time past with no one complaining about that, and now that the church is evolving with the times, we have all these criticisms. Please let us be more accomodating and try to believe the best of others. As some one said: "we judge others by their actions, but judge ourselves by our good intentions." That is so hypocritical.

I think you give honour to whom it is due, even if it is a thief. Kalu may not be everey other thing that is good, but when it comes to sports administration, he has proven his mettle. I think he should be on that list. I don't know what Peter odili has done to merit the honour ahead of Kalu. This is not about governance, it is about sports. Makes you wonder how they short list for other national awards too.

IG,
I have responded to the charter that you said Mohammed made, though there was no reference in it that it was actually made by Mohammed.
The charter only shows that he was a master politician as well as a religious leader. He makes proclamation for peace when it suits his interest and he declares an all-out war when that will be better for him. To me, he appears like a man without a particuar principle. Does he believe in peace or war? In very man's God-given right to believe or disbelieve in God? Or must all submit to Allah by willful submission or by the sword if necessary? This is not the hallmark of as man of peace.

A present-day example of a man of peace is Rev. Martin Luther King. He was effecive with his peaceful, non-violent protest that led to the civil right movement in America. This shows that Mohammed's mind-set of violence as an option is completely faulty and untennable. I hope you get my point now.

Mariory,

What is the leading of the Spirit all about? If all we have is a\our brain, then what is the role of the holy Spirit? The Bible says "Whether we turn to the right or to the left, we will hear a voice behind us saying: 'this is the way, walk ye in it'". Our brain tells us where to go, but God can tell us to go otherewise if He sees danger ahead.

I live by this principle with respect to the issue you raise: I keep on doing what I know shouold be done, unless the Spirit of God instructs otherwise.

I don't think it was the Pastor who made the request.  Someone else did.  No doubt people go too far in interpreting some scriptures, but the principle remains the same:  every man should give as God has prospered him.  You can't buy a Designer suit for your pastor when you can't even afford a tee-shirt. 

I think the issue of wealth management should lie on the shoulders of the Pastor.  Seeing him prosper is not a reason for us to quit blessing him as the scripture commands.  It is up to the Pastor to know what he should give away and what he should keep from amongst the gifts.  God is able to get through to His man in this regard.  His lack of obdience should not lead the rest of us to disobedience.

As you rightly noted mlks_baby, 2 Cor 12:14 addresses the Pastor while Romans 15:17 and 1 Corinthians 9:11 is for the flock.  I don't think we should reason outside the scriptures.

Despite the various interpretations, the Bibles meesage is consistent in all cases. This is what has been addressed on this forum. There is no contradictions in the Bible, just various interpretations. These are two difernet issues.

Reverend,

I think you need to point out your grievenaces one at a time.  Copying and pasting all these information from another source isn't going to help as I'm not going to go thrugh all with the limited time I've got.

But let me answer some for starters.  The issue of the order of creation is something I've dealt with before on this forum.  The accounts in the Book of Genesis starts with a summary of creation in chapters 1 and goes back and forth between days.  This is what is confusing you.  You need to do a better study.

The light in Genesis 1:3 has nothing to do with the sun.  This is the light of divine life where God now permits His revelation to go forth.  It has nothing to do with the solar light and darkness.  This light is mentioned in the New Testament as the one that shines and dispels unbeliefs in unbelievers.  This darkness is also mentioned in the new Testament as a chain of darkness which is keeping the fallen angels in custody.  You need revelation my friend.  And by the way, a study of the Hebrew words will reveal to you that this light was told to manifest.  The word reveals that that light was already existing before that time.  it wasn't created like the other creation in the days following.  That should tell you that it was actually the Christ in His pre-incarnate glory that the Bible was refering to there.  Rememebr that in Him do all things consists and everything was created by Him and for Him, and in Him we live, move and have our being.

Your point of God being pleased or not doesn't make sense at all.  He was pleased with what He created and was displeased with what it became.  How straight-forward can that be?

If you understand that a day before God is like a thousand years, then you will not expose your ignorance to the general public about Adam dying in one day (whichbefore God is like a thousand years).  and by the way, adam died immediately spiritually.  God had to ensure that his body remained for a while in order to complete his salvation plan.

If ve was created sometime later, could that later not be within the same day?  Think my friend.

I do not have the time to tackle all these issues, but the afrementioned already shows that you lack revelation knowledge.  Please pray that God should open your eyes to see.  I'll get to more of your statement as i'm opportuned to.

There is nothing wrong with blessing your Pastor with material goods. Which do you think is more important - material enrichment or physical enrichment? Your Pastor enriches you spiritually every week at least, is it too much that you enrich him physically once a year during his birthday? I do not think so. Check out: Romans 15:27 27 It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things 1 Corinthians 9:11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
Give your gift in obedience unto this scripture as unto the Lord and not unto man. Never mind if the Pastor is looking fatted. Eli was a vary fat man who was obviously well compensated from working in his office as a Priest, but this doesn't mean those who he ministers to should not bless him. He still remained a Priest of God and a means through which God could bless his people. Remember Saul's statement while going to see Eli? He said something like this: "I can not go and see the man of God empty handed". All of these are written for our instructions so we could follow. SELAH.

Reverend,

There is absolutely no contradiction in the Bible. The entire message remains the same from Genesis to Revelation. please give instances where you find such contradictions.

Christianity believes in prayer for our leaders as in 1 Timothy 2:1-8[/b]1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; F2 that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

We however do not believe in prayer for and to the dead. We pray in Jesus' name because He is our High priest before the Father and He lives to make intercession for us. To any man who is dead, they all await judgement as written in [b]Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Mohammed, was just an ordinary man, and he is waiting for his judgement right now. No quantity of prayers to and for him can change anything. Peace upon him or not will be dependent on what he did with Christ Jesus while he was here, because he obviously heard the message of Salvation.

And just to let you know, he may not have confessed Jesus Christ to be Lord while on earth, but it is clear from scriptures that he will now that he is on the other side. Phillipians 2:9-11 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

There's nothing double-minded about this whole issue. As a President, will he be there for Life? This could only be a phase in the evolution of his life. That call is made by God and not man.

The issue of Oyhaks gives me more confidence as to what he can do if President. He stood on principles and didn't let fear or what people might say influence his actions. Do you think it was an easy thing for him to stand up and say all he said. He has guts, and he is a compassionate leader as well. this much I know.

I fail to see how exactly being a Pastor is either a plus or a minus when being President. I am a very uncorrupted individual and I don't practice any religion, so to some how imply that believe in God is an important attribute in being untainted is very misleading.

Being a Pastor does not qualify anyone to be the President any more than being a Soldier will qualify another. But being a Soldier and/or a Pastor exposes you to human administration and resource management and governing is all about this two.

You may not believe in God, but what makes you uncorrupt is your belief system that it makes you a better person and makes for a better society. For a Pastor or any Believer for that matter, we flee away from corruption not only because of the afore mentioned reasons but also because of a conscience towards God. So if we both agree that corruption is bad for Leadership, then a Man of God might be a good bet also if his/her credentials proves worthy of that office.

TayoD, I hope this shows you that you are so wrong about that stement, except if imlks_baby made a mistake when she said this

My conclusion was not based on mlks_baby's prior statement but on the statements and actions of Moslems world over. One on this forum claimed that Mohammed is the greatest Prophet and the best man that ever lived. Your confessions in Islam goes something like this: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his Prophet" (please correct me if I'm wrong). If Islam does not compare and acknowledge the superiority of Mohammed over other Prophets, then why are Moslems all over the world outraged at the cartoons of Mohammed, yet say nothing at those of Jesus Christ or the Davinci Code? And why do you discard the many books authored by theses dozens of Prophets and hold on with fanatism to the one authored by Mohammed? Doesn't that present a twisted logic to you?

And as for the Shahadah which means witness, Muslims are required to say it to be in the state of belief. The reason they are required to testify to the messengership of Muhammed (SAW) is simple, at that time, He was denied as the Prophet and called a magician by the Quraish, so a Muslim was required to testify to his messengership as a sort of affirmation in believing in Islam completely.

So why are you still saying it today?

If you took time to read my earlier posts, you'll see that I already posted the full version of that convenant Muhamad (SAW) had with the christians before. But, the christians I have been engaged with just managed to conveniently ignore it and instead choose to hold on to their prejudical and aberrant view that Muhamad (SAW) was actually a man given to violence.

This is exactly what I am saying. Mohammed is peaceful only to the extent that it serves his political and religious interest. A man of peace will be peaceful at all times like we see in the case of Jesus. However, someone who proposes peace at one time and declares war on another, only shows he subsribes to whichever one is convenient for him at the time to achieve a particular end. Read the Book of Acts and you'll see that the early church was peaceful at all times even when they were severely persecuted and murdered. Now that is wha it is to be peaceful.

Still on the queries you raised mlks_baby, the Quran refers to Jesus (ASW) as the Word, yes, and all it means is that Jesus (ASW) was spoken by God to be and He was.

This is where both faiths differ. Jesus Christ is not a created Being. He is very God, a very God: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

@TayoD, a civilised person is not suppose to show hate.

Can you please show me what I said that you have translated to mean hate? I owe no man anything but to love them, so I'm surprised by your accusations.

The qur'an said There is no compulsion in religion

Why don't you say this to the Mullahs in Afghanistan who were ready to kill the convert to Christianity. Or do the entire Afghan population represent the deviation and not the norm?

GL is definitely right. It is wrong to compare the Prophets. Whether Jesus (ASW) was called the last Adam or the second Adam means nothing, so long as he is related to Adam in the bible, especially as He and Adam (ASW) share some things in common as enumerated by GL.

Of course you can never compare people or prophets with each other because God only works with any man on the medium of grace. No one merits God's grace. It is given of His free will and love to mankind. 2Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.. The ambit of that arguments ends however, with Jesus. This is God Himself.

Whether Jesus (ASW) was called the last Adam or the second Adam means nothing, so long as he is related to Adam in the bible

You just showed your deep ignorance of the Bible in this statement. If you'd like to know what the difference is, I'll be glad to tell you though it is beyond the scope o this thread. But I must point out to you that there is no idle word in the Bible. Though Islam places little value on the Word of God which is evident by their audacity in claiming that the Word of God (the Bible) has been corrupted. God places more value on His Word than to have it changed and corrupted in that manner. You may have problems with our traditions like Jesus did with those of His days, but never once did He suggest that the Torah was corrupted from the original. He said in Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. So you can see here that every little statement matter. Don't go around saying otherwise.

GL,

Just for correction. The Bible refered to Jesus as the 'Last Adam' and not the second Adam. These are two different things altogether.

The issue of comparing Prophets is a thing done by Islam and not christianity. There is actually no basis of comparison between Jesus and others, just like there is no basis of comparison between the creature and its creator.

Isaho,

Thanks for your piece.
However, I beg to differ on the issue of regarding both Jesus Christ and Mohammed as Men of Peace. Jesus is described in the Bible as the Prince of Peace, and He lived it out through and through. Mohammed on the other hand may have displayed some peaceful behavior, but I personally do not believe he was a man of peace. History and the many blood shed through his hands will immediately tell you otherwise. But in all essence, Mohammed was only peaceful to the extent that you do not distrub his peace, and so long as you are either in subjection to the Islamic Government or you 'convert' to be a Moslem. No matter how much you disturbed the peace of Jesus, He remained peaceful to the end. Now that is what it is to be a man of peace.

This scripture almost certainly brings tears to my eyes each time I read it. Y'all should check out:
1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
I can't wait to see my Lord, I can't wait to be with Him forever.
Now check out the entire context of that verse: 1 John 1:1-3  "1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."
Doesn't this make you wanna shout??!!!!!!!!!!!

mlks_baby,

I doff my hat to you. I have watched your arguments so far and I must say that I am impressed. Your knowledge of the Qu'ran is unquestionsable and I can't but wonder how you got your information. Are you a former Moslem or could it be that you are a theologian who studied the Qu'ran as a text? I am curious.

Your references to the scriptures also show one who has studied to show himself approved, and I thank God that there are still some Christians who delve into the dialectics of the Bible and are able to get the life that is embedded in the scriptures.

Keep up the good work. I've enjoyed reading your posts.

why don't you the christains think deep,if you said he is the son of GOD that means mary is the wife of God, but we believe jesus is like any other prophets they both preach on one God. why don't you think about it before you post your comments. all we the muslims believe in is Allah is one and is messenger Muhhammad.

ikilima,
Perhaps you need to do some thinking beyond the physical. How can you say God has a wife? Christianity, unlike Islam does not teach the existence of male and female sexes in heaven. Jesus rebuked the Jews who were thinking that way, and I believe he will call the Islamic teachings of Harems in Heaven as a blasphemy too. I would rather take His Word for it than that spoken by Mohammed because He claims He is from the Father ans is One with His Father.

No where will you find the Bible teaching that Mary is the Mother of God, rather Mary is the mother of the man, Jesus. This may seem confusing to you, but to those of us who believe, "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:" Mark 4:11.

Mary only gave birth to the physical body that God chose to inhabit. As the scriptures say in Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"Mary is the mother of that sinless body.

I could go on and on, but I doubt you will undrstand.

My bottom line is that I find no better candidate right now. With the way things stand, my vote will go to him and no other. Whether that vote counts or not doesn't even matter.

Since when did a church of about 15,000 members become a small church? Please let me know.

Talking about his heart as a shepherd, I need to tell you a true story. There was a time a member of the church called him while ther were armed robbers on their street. The Police didnt show up, and no one could help. Guess what Okotie did? He not only got down to pray (which is what most men of God will do), rather, he went to the church, got the security people on duty, got some memebrs of the church that were policemen and members of the armed forces, and went to this street in a convoy with sirens balring. When the Armed Robbers heard all the noise, they left the residents of the street alone, thinking the police was on their back.

That is a man who not only believe in prayer but in action, and God backed up the action by delivering that entire neighbourhood from the terror of the armed group.

I'm sure he had the go-ahead from God to do this and God proved himself by the outcome. Tell me, how many men of God will do this for their flock. Just like David, he put his life on the line for a single sheep. I will trust myself in the hands of such a man thatn one who I cant even get near to. this is the kind of man we need in the country. One who leads by example and will be there when needed.

ajia23,

We are going round in circles on that matter, so may be we should go to another.

You are the one going around in circles. As long as you continue to hold on to the notion that the Bible is corrupted without any proofs, you will find yourself in absolute confusion. As vehement as Moslems are to impeach the credibility of the Bible, they cannot prove that is is adulterated. I have told you guys how best to do this. Produce the Bible in circulation during Mohammed's days and compare it to what we have today. I know you are aware that if no difference exists between both copies, then the whole of Islam is nothing but a lie. Don't you think you owe it to yourself and to the billions of people causght in this evil empire to find out this fact?

I am beginning to think that you just pick up statements from websites that are anti-christ and you publish them here without a clue as to what they are talking about. You need to pick up the Bible again and find out if Jesus acknowledged being the Christ or not. I do not want to give you the references here again because I've had to correct you a number of times about some of your allegations which cannot be substantiated.

What is the meaning of Christ? If you study the scriptures, you will find that the word Messaiah and Christ are used interchangeably. And for your information, a transliteration into today's language, will refer to Christ as the anointed One and His anointing. What is the anointing? That is the manifest prescence of the Holy Spirit. What did your Qu'ran say about Jesus and the Holy Spirit? if you find that out, then you will know He was refered to as the Christ by the Qu'ran. Even Mohammed never claimed having anything to do with the Holy Spirit, rather the claims were he wasn't sure if it was a demon manifesting whenever he had his numerous seizures while getting a revelation.

I guess you should prevail on your brothers in Kenya not to carry out their threats otherwise there will be one more similarity between slam and Christianity-violent reactions to criticism, and it will afterall make non-sense of a lot of arguments put forward about peaceful christianity on this site.

Whether those zealous Christians in Kenya go violent or not does not change Jesus' central teaching on peace, neither does it change Mohammed's central teaching of 'peace' through the sword. A Christian who manifests the fruit of violence shows that he/she is not connected to the 'tree' called Jesus. However, the Moslem who manifests violence will be showing a character that was well displayed by Mohammed.

You need to understand that the issue between Islam and Christianity cannot be well addressed until the two central characters - Jesus and Mohammed are the focus. Adherents may practice wrong, but the founders practiced what they preach. What did Jesus preached and practiced, and what did Mohammed preached and practiced?

ajia23,

I still do not accept your explanations concerning the Angels being involved in creation. Going by the logic of your argument, the word 'us' will only be used by Allah if the angels were active participants in the event, either as initiators or executors. So, what role did they play in the creation of Adam as revealed in the Qu'ran? Were they creators or executors? If none of the above, then they must have been spectators, and that brings your argument down to its knees. If they were spectators, then the word 'us' would have been inapropriate.

Reading what the Qu'ran says can never be accepted as truth by Christians, because of the credibility of the Author and because of the express written instructions from the Bible.

Why would the Qu'ran ask you to believe the contents of the Bible and not provide you with the authentic one? If the Qu'ran suggests the Bible was indeed the truth of God's word at the time of that revelation, then we need to find out the contents of the Gospels at that time. I'm sure you will find no difference between the Gospels as found in the Bible today as the one that existed during Mohammed's time. That being said, the credibility of this man called Mohammed is definitely something that needs to be investigated.

ajia23,

I'm surprised by your assertions that God would seek counsel from Angels or any of His creatures before He does anything.  How many times has He consulted you before carrying out His will?  You give more relevance to the creature rather than the creator from your perspective.  In the creation of Eve, God did not allow Adam who was to be her companion to have an input, instead God put Adam to sleep and only brought Eve to Adam after she was created.  The only participation that Adam had in creation was the naming of the animals, and this was done to show that Adam had authority over them.  In Biblical perspective, it is the one who is in authority that can give names to those under his authority.  You can see that there is no logic in your statement at all.  Try explaining some other way or come to the terms that the allah as described in your Qu'ran is not even one personality, not that it makes any difference to my faith.

Peace unto me the day I was born, the day I die and the day I shall be raised alive."

The quote above is from one of your posts earlier.  I do not know if you got it from the Qu'ran or hadith, but can't you see the contradictions in it?  Here it is claimed that Jesus actually will die, but in the other Qu'ranic claims, jesus didn't actually die but was raised up to heaven.    Can you also see a claim of resurrection in that statement?

About the Bible being corrupted.  I told you once to do your research and find out the Bible that existed during the days of Mohammed and make comparative notes with the Bible in circulation today with a view to highlighting the differences.  When you have done that, please share your results with us, and we shall decide if indeed the Bible has being corrupted or not.  Since you have been commanded to believe in the Gospels, which was written by Jesus' disciples and not Jesus Himself, then you owe it to your faith to find out what the original texts say and not depend on conjecture.

FRESH Democratic Party has now being registered by INEC.