₦airaland Forum

I wouldn't want to disagree with you two (Drusilla and TV01), just for the sake of keeping this conversation going, but I want to point out one important fact that I think you both missed in your write-ups. Jesus wasn't offering us a suggestion when He made that statement, it was actually a command. To make matters more serious, He actually asked us to give unto Ceasar as much as we will give unto God. Our dedication to Ceasar must be total as much as our dedication to God is total. This is actually something that was difficult for me to swallow until God revealed to me from the scriptures that the secular Government is actually an extension of God's authority on earth, and you all know how much God frowns at violation of constituted authority.

Every human endeavour presents the Christian with the opportunity for compromise. My question is, what sets politics apart that many of us will not even touch it with a ten-foot pole? I am waiting for answers. If politics is that ungodly, why have some believers excelled in it as we se in the case of Daniel?

TV01, the only reason why Jesus didn't take up the Jew's offer is because the time wasn't right yet. What the Jews wanted on Jesus' first coming is what He has planned to do on His second coming. He is going to be both a Political and Spiritual Leader during the Millenium. This is one reason why a lot of Jews do not believe in Jesus. They expected their Messaiah to be a mighty warrior who will deliver them from oppression and this He will do when He comes back. The Jews were blinded to the fact that He was to come first as a sheep before He will return as the Lion.

Drusilla, your statement: "Christians do not benefit from being in Ceasars system." seems very noble, but I can't disagree more. As Christians we benefit from good governance which a righteous man is sure to bring. Are you telling me that Christians have been immune from the collective suffering that our Politicians have subjected us to over the years in Nigeria? Do we buy food from a different market and do we get paid on a different salary scale than other unbelievers in Nigeria? I don't think so, and I believe you know that too. Maybe I misunderstand what you are trying to say, but from my response, I'm sure you know your argument does not hold water.

Your analysis of voting and otherwise within the the two systems are well noted and accepted, but are we not to take advantage of each for our good. In God's system, we know we only have to obey and believe God for understanding as we do His bidding, but in Ceasar's system, we are to use our influence to make positive changes within the polity. The case of Mordecai readily comes to mind here. His influence in government is what saved an entire nation from destruction. That is one other way the righteous are to make a differnce in government.

TayoD,
Traditionally, the answer to who is he "who letteth" has always been: The Holy Spirit.
I've heard the newest interpretation from the rapture folks about this being the church also. Although,I am short on details of how they came to this conclusion. Maybe you could show me the scriptures that support that idea.
I was thinking yesterday about this when I first read your post. What immeadiately struck me was the fact that Paul mentions the falling away or apostacy of the church only 4 verses earlier.
Is Paul referring to the church falling away finally and the anti-Christ coming forth because most christians have been taken out of the way (i.e. Christians are with the anti-christ)?

@Drusilla,
Paul's mention of the falling away and the revelation of that man of sin was in clarifying the events that are to take place before the Great Day of the Lord.  The falling away is not directly linked to the revelation of the man of sin, though it is bound to take place before that event.  Go back and read 2 Thessalonnians 2 from the very first verse and you will see exactly what I mean.

With regards to He who now letteth, I personally believe it is the Church, though saying it is the Holy Spirit will still lead you to the same conclusion.  The Holy Spirit is present on the earth today only in the body of the believers.  If the Holy Spirit is taken away, will He now leave us when Jesus said He will be with us forever?  If indeed the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way, then the Believers are sure to go with Him, because the Bible says He is the earnest of the deposit until the redemption of our whole bodies (see Ephesians 1:13 & 14).  How can God take the deposit away when He actually promised fullness afterward!!!

There are at least two major reasons why the rapture has to occur just before the appearing of the man of sin, and this I will treat in my subsequent posts.  It's going to involve a lot of references and I am wary of it being too long.  I wouldn't want to lose my point while driving at it.  Anyway, it is basically a dispensation thing, and Prophet Daniel had a lot to say about it.

I hope I've said enough to keep you thirsty for more.

radlsfield,

I am inviting you to share your views on the matter of faith and patriotism on a thread I just started (Faith and Patriotism - The Church and the State) under the religion sub-section. I think it'll be a better forum to thrash out this issue of the clergy and politics.

Please be informed that those in government are as much as God's servant as the Pastors are. Who is the master that politicians serve if I may ask? The only time the Bible talks about masters outside of God is in regards to mammon (money). The New Testaments tells us clearly that those in government are God's servant, so I do not know who the other master that a clergy will be serving in government apart from God.

otokx,

While I understand your fears and concerns, I do not agree we need to go on with such polarisation, and winner-takes-it-all mentality that is the order of the day in our politics.

OBJ's knowledge of hausa had nothing to do with his victory, rather he was a stooge in the hands of the hausas to fulfil their selfish interest. Only he seems to now have delivered himself from their hands. The plan was to have him hand over power back to the north, and I hope he dissapoints them totally.

Okotie has his influence with the hausas as well. Do you know he is the only non-northerner on the board of the Aminu Kano board of trustees? I don't believe the north will concede such a position to any body whom they feel is a none-starter. Aminu Kano is the greatest rallying point for the Northerners and that is a great stride for Okotie in my estimation. I believe he is a total nigerian without any ethnic or religious agenda. he has been friends with those who represent national interest and gave a million naira to MKO during his campaign for the presidency. All this and many more is what makes me consider him a good product, even if others might be out there that are better products than he is.

Drusilla,

I am a stickler to the Bible to my very core, and I will be most glad to share the biblical verses on that which we are discussing. But I have one question for you before we go on, who is the one the bible says "now letteth" who has now been taken out of the way according to your conclusion? I will be glad to know your views so I know where to start.

Bobbyaf,

Let me start by letting you understand that there are three groups of people on the earth today as recognised by the Bible. These are the Jews, the nations (or gentiles) and the church. You have to understand that not all scriptures you read relate only to the church. Some are refering to the nations or the Jews and when you apply the scripture that relates to the jews to the Church, you will be messing things up.

The scripture about God's elect that you are talking about actually relates more to the Jews right there. The jews are going to be God's people and His representative once the Church is in heaven. Why do you think the Bible says that temple sacrifices will resume at the tribulation period? And why will the Bible say that the man of sin will ascend into God's temple and call himself God? This is because it is a new age in which God's temple will now be the one built up in Jeruslaem (remember that in this dispensation, christians are God's temple). And why would there be other blood sacrifices when it is the blood of Jesus that avails in this dispensation? Think on these things, and I'll begin to give you scriptures and talk to you more about dispensations within the Bible.

otokx,

I may not be in the country now, but I lived there up until 2 years ago and was back in naija a month ago for a 2 weeks visit. Besides I was born and lived in Naija for almost 30 years. I lived in Abuja for 2 years and I worked and visited almost all the northern states while based in Abuja. In all my travels, the only language I speak is english and you will be surprised how many people understand and can relate in english.

I still maintain my stand that given prefernce to one language over another is still an indication that the WAZOBIA mentality which pervades our country is a divider instead of a uniter.

The situation is just like we have in religion in the public square. Most public functions are opened and closed with prayers from Moslems and Christians. My question is: what about practitioners of other religion and those who don't believe in any thing at all? Won't they feel left out of a state function? If we are going to recognise one religion, then we have to recognise all others as well, or else we will be marginalising some.

As Chris Okotie has said, the only thing that binds us together is the national flag, and at all state functions, we shall only open and close with the national anthem. Religion should be left within the context of the place of worship and the State must never be seen giving prefernce to one religion over another. The same holds true for ethnicity and language.

otokx,

Your arguments are so feeble. If he adds hausa to his language skills, what about the other 250 or so languages and dialects spoken in the country? Are those other people irrelevant? When you elevate one language over others, are you not guilty of tribalism? I would understand if you asked if he could speak pidgin english, at least that is still a common language spoken by all.

His elevated diction just gives some of us the opportunity to go back and check the dictionary and learn some more. Isn't that the kind of leader we desire? One that has something to teach and from whom we can learn! Unlike what wee have today, where some of our leaders can't even make a good sentence in one simple language.

Your points are noted otokx, but they are not relevant.

please tell the rev. chris okotie to learn hausa since you say he understands yoruba and ibo.

I can see that you have been paralysed by the WAZOBIA mentality. What about other tribes within the Nigerian nation? Is Hausa, Igbo or Yoruba superior to them just because they are reportedly more in number? English is our lingua franca ansd as long as you speak that language and have the zeal and patriotism as well as the mental acumen and discipline to govern that nation, then you might have my vote.

All these trivial things you people keep pointing out just shows me how battered the psyche of the average Nigerian is. You can not even begin to think of anything outside the status quo. May God help us.

The problems we have in the political arena of Nigeria is summed up here by Okotie himself:

Politics in Nigeria

[i]There are three levels of understanding concerning the politics of Nigeria, particularly, democracy. They are the elitism, ethnicism and satanism. Once you can understand these three concepts, you know how to operate within any political system in the country because elitism is glued to the PDP when you are dealing with democracy that is supposed to be all involving and embracing. So, we know that within any concept or any political climate, there is always that group, the elitist concept of democracy within that group; and once you can address that, you are already making progress.

The elitist group in Nigeria is already being polarised, because we have seen in the political system that there has been no cohesion among the elite. That is why you are seeing here that PDP, as the most gargantuan political party across the continent, is already breaking up. The concept of elitism does not thrive for too long within the system where the people are becoming more enlightened. And how do you make them enlightened? What they always do is to maintain the hold on power in such a way that they send in palliatives to the rest of the people who unconsciously agree with them that there should be evolution of the polity. Rev. Chris Okotie is an evidence of the fact that the concept of elitism in the Nigerian political setup can no longer survive, because I don’t belong to that group.

Next is mysticism. The emergence of mysticism concept is derived from the word, which says ‘it is either me or nothing’. So, what we are facing here is that we have politicians who believe that if they have no hold on power, then there shall be no power. I am just telling you that these are some of the people who create this concept because they have all been demystified. But now, the concept of mysticism no longer holds because now, there are no longer ordinary men like you and me.

Then you have satanism which is just chaos. What they do when they cannot get power is to create chaos. They used chaos as a personal agenda –like if this man does not become president, there is going to be trouble in Nigeria. Beyond that, you see there is nothing that is going to happen, because the things that have been happening in this country show that these things are not going to survive. That is why I am saying that the Nigerian people are more prepared than they used to be. Eventually, you would realise that power belongs to the people. And the global trend shows that institutions that have oppressed the people for so many years, once the people get the enlightenment and they get up and say no, evolutional change must follow. And that is what we are going through. The death of the third term, everybody knows about what happened and we don’t need to worry about that because time by itself has made us to know that all this narrow compartmentalisation can no longer hold.[b][/b][/i]

Is someone trying to play on our intelligence here? They must think we are all mugu. That picture does not relate to anything by way of population.

Liketoo, I shake my head for you.

Davidylan,

I'm with you all the way. The promise of God to Abraham extends beyond the life and times of Abraham to his present day seed in the flesh: Isreal, and to his spiritual descendants by faith: Christians.

It is counter-productive for people who have no full understanding of the biblical promise to come out here and mislead those who are already going astray. Such misconception is what led to a muslim on this forum claiming that they bless Abraham even more than christians do, and that muslims are even more christian than Christians themselves. Don't be deceived, you cannot be rooting for the destruction of Abraham's descendants and yet think you are blessing Abraham. These two are mutually exclusive.

memyself,

No doubt the root cause of all these problems lies in Islam as a religion.  When the supreme leader of a nation called Iran, sanctions and approves the wiping out of another secular nation, then what do you expect?  Hezbollah is a military organization with a spiritual foundation that is based on Islam.  So this problem goes beyond Hezbollah to the clerics who teach these people that violence pays and killing an infidel is a means to everlasting enjoyment in the bossom of 72 virgins.  And where do these clerics get their information?  You guess right, it's the Qu'ran.

So we see here that Islam is the root cause of these problems and I hope you will maintain this perspective while trying to profer a solution, because anything short of this will only be a waste of time.

belloti,

And can't you see that your source has just fabricated a big lie? The issue of David being the who established Isreal in that land is just a very obvious one. I don't think it is our duty to search the truth for you, but as long as we have pointed out the fallacy of what has been potrayed to you as truth, then you need to start questioning your source and try and do some more objective research. A lie in one is sure an indicator of a lie in all.

Drusilla, I like your zeal, but your knowledge is so inaccurate. I don't even know where to start from, but you really need to get your theology in order.

Good post Davidylan, you are spot on in your summary.

Seun, the last days actually began as soon as Jesus ascended, so technically, every generation is right to think that they are in the last days. However, our generation is at the latter days of the last days, and I am certain this is the generation that will witness the Rapture. The Bible is very clear that the generation that will see Isreal coming back together as a nation (as we see in 1948), is the generation that will esperience all these events.

Talking about the rapture, Drusilla, the one the Bible mentions "who now letteth" is the church, and until the church is taken out of the way, the man of sin can not be fully revealed. The reasons for this is something quite simple, and I can tell you if you desire to know.

Cheers.

1. Shina Rambo

2. Monday Osunbor

3. Lawrence Anini

4. Gov Alamasiegha

@Dauda,

Haba, this is not fair o. How can you put the pot-bellied ex-governor Alams in this group!!! Kai, Alams don suffer o.

@TV01,

Indeed we are all 'Called' in the NT, however, the call to the five-fold ministry is what I believe we are talking about here. In this regard, there are special callings by Jesus into these ministries. Not all believers are pastors, prophets, evangelists, teachers or apostles. The call into any of these ministries does not make the believer more equal than the others, it only places him in a special position of authority and responsibility. And by the way, these callings have nothing to do with ability or how self-righteous the believer is, it is all by God's choosing and will.

I agree with what you said about the fruit of the Spirit with regards to the OT saints. I only used the fruit of the Spirit within that context to point at the elements of love, joy, peace, self-control etc which was also required of God's people within that covenant.

In the case of Samson, you will notice that he never lost his strength all the while he was in fornication until his hair was cut off from him. His hair was like our bodies today where the Holy Spirit dwells. The only reason he lost his strength was because His access to the Holy Spirit was cut off, and not because he sinned. He had been in sin even before this fornication incident and he still had his power for as long has the vessel where the Spirit of God dwells was still present with him.

The Bible encourages us to regard with double honour those that labour in the Word. This is not to bring about a pulpit-pew dichotomy, but it is just in keeping with the spiritual law of giving honor to whom honor is due. The issue of maturity and consecration you talked about can also be utilized to divide the brethren. All we need is some balance and love to walk it right.

Apart from his native language, I know he speaks and understands yoruba and igbo very well. By the way, what has that got to do with anything?

@TayoD are You ok at all?

And what exactly do you mean?

In my honest opinion, only one thing makes you a Man of God: God's Calling. The principle is exactly what is said of Aaron: "No one takes this honor unto himself, except he that is called, like Aaron".

TV01 made a valid point when he said the character we expect to be found in a MOG is what is expected to be cultivated by each Christian. And from what has been pointed out before now, the appelation was addressed to someone like Elijah whom I believe lacked the fruit of the Spirit in his life (you can tell if you follow his ministry closely).

Leadership qualities is expected of every Christian at various levels in their walk with God and men. If all you are is a father or mother, then you are a leader within your home. So while leadership skills are required to fulfil your calling as a MOG, that is not what makes you one.

The issue of miracles and the likes are all gifts from God which is irrevocable even if the MOG wallows in sin (the gifts and callings of God are without repentance). To illustrate, remember how Elisha called wild animals to devour little children because they were making fun of his bald head? That was God's power put to wrong use. Likewise Elijah devouring those soldiers with fire even though they had done him no wrong. These are people, like the devil using God's gifts wrongly. God still never took those gifts away despite the wrong use. They needed those gifts to fulfill their callings as MOGs.

From all these and many more reasons, I believe it takes just God's calling to be a MOG. However, there are certain qualities expected of one who is called a MOG, but these qualities don't make him/her one.

@Gwaine,

The first thing I did after reading your very informative posts was to check your personal profile.  I must acknowledge that I am most relieved that you provided very limited information about yourself.  That I believe is a very wise move, otherwise I will be most fearful for your safety.

If it was Jehovah that you came against in your posts, I would have given you up to sure judgement because I know He will definitely reach you wherever you may go or be.  However, since your grouse is with Allah, the only way he can punish you or penalise you is to get his moslem fanatic foot-soldiers to come and behead you or blow themselves up in your neighbourhood while killing hundreds of innocent civilians as well.  If these foot-soldiers can't get your information, then you are sure out of Allah's reach and judgement.

Come to think of it, that is a sure differnce between Allah and Jehovah.  While Jehovah tells us as Christians not to avenge ourselves and leave the judgement to Him, Allah, who seems paralysed and unable to stand up and defend himself, requires his blood-thirsty followers to do the dirty work for him.

Anyway, keep up the good job my brother, but be mindful not to over-do it.

Cheers.

@babyosisi,

It is such a pity that this heinous sharia law and its crude and heartless enforcers are allowed to take root in what is supposed to be a secular Nigeria.  Life means nothing to them.  They can only destroy and have no power to create life.

I expect our moslem friends to cook up another conspiracy theory here.  And to top it all, they will keep telling us that Islam is a peaceful religion.  What a hog-wash.  There is absolutely nothing peaceful about that religion.  It was born and propagated in blood and it needs blood for its sustenance.  May God have mercy on their lost and dark souls. 

I feel for the life that has being lost.  But I have just one message for you Islamic murderers: "You may kill us, but you can never do us any real harm, for to be absent in the body is to be present with the Lord."

[b]Matthew 22:[/b]21Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
This statement was made by Jesus, and interestingly, the account is carried by all the authors of the Gospels except John.  I have often wondered what the ramifications of this statement are?  Is it limited to finances as the entire context may suggest?  Or is that statement a statute of general application?  What obligations do we have as Christians to our country?  Are we to be a part of the Government?  Should we vote?  Should we run for offices, and if we can who amongts us can?  What examples do we have in the Bible with regards to our participation in Politics?   What should our relationship with the State be as an institution and as individuals?  Can we be loyal to one without compromising our relationship with the other?

Unfortunately, I do not think I can exhaust the endless possibilities that this statement offers in my introduction.  So, I expect as many sides to this issue as can come.  I am particularly interested in having my brother, TV01 on this forum.  My decision to post this topic is a direct result of his contribution on another thread.

Anyway, let the debate begin!

By the way, Moslems are also invited to give us the Qu'ranic view on this important matter of State and Religion.

@ajia23,

I think I might have a reason why Isreal decided to pour the full weight of their wrath on the Lebanese nation. Considering the heavy losses that Lebanon have had to suffer because of Hezbollah, I doubt if any nation will in the future permit such an organisation to step foot, talkless of taking a hold of the entire country. Any country nuturing such a thought will only need to 'consider' Lebanon, and such a thought will perish immediately.

Come to think of it, if Hezbollah has grown beyond the control of the Lebanese government, perhaps they should thank Isreal for weeding them out and dealing them a great blow. I'm sure Isreal will not let up until Hezbollah is crippled to ineffectiveness. They will be crazy if they dont use this opportunity to do just that.

The way I see it, there is only one of two ways to end this conflict.
The first is the deployment of an International peace-keeping force in the region that will control that border and effectively keep Hezbollah from this cross-border raids and shelling.
The second is the total annihilation of either Isreal or Hezbollah. Obviously, both can never live peacefully side by side. In other words, it's now going to be the survival of the fittest. Guess who will survive this.

Not many people may like my post, but I believe it is the harsh reality we are faced with.

mukina2,

Are you asking the Isrealis to vacate that land for the Palestines? Not only is this impossible, it is certainly not justified. From the last I know, Palestinians are a people that became a nation recently after being sent packing from Lebanon. Isreal has been living in that land much longer than that. David was king over Jerusalem and the surrounding lands. Now tell me if the Palestinians can trace their roots that far.

Isreal wasn't going around looking for trouble when they were attacked by Islamic nations in 1948. They defended themselves as they are doing now. The only reasons why they occupied part of the Gaza strip is security, and they have been proved right with the recent staging of attacks on Isreal from that location. Same is true with Lebanon. Isreal left their land, and now they have to pay for it because Hezbollah now operates from there.

If enemies of the United States operate from a border town in Mexico to attack the United States, I will be in support of my country invading that border town in order to guaranttee the safety of my nation. Isreal has same rights. I know they may be excessive sometimes, but the truth is the opposition they face knows no other language but force, and unfortunately the whole world will suffer for this.

By the way, I am deeply concerned about this falling out in Nigeria. I wont be surprised if Muslims start going on their usual rampage to kill Christians with the excuse of this Isreali-Arab conflict. Anyone out there shares my concern?

Mukina2,

I wonder what you are driving at.

The problem isn't about Isreal being surrounded by Arabs, the problem is that the region is governed by Islam. A situation where the Isreali population is considered 'Satan' by the religion will always mean the people will be out to wipe out that country.

Going on Hajj, Muslims get to a point where they are to stone an object which they believe is Satan. Now imagine what they'll do when they see 'Satan' in human form. No wonder they are quick to kill christians who they refer to as the "great Satan'. Abi I lie?!!

I do agree with ajia23 (for the first time in history) that we need to look for practical ways to douse the conflagration in the middle east. However, from a Christian's point of view, we see that all these events are only birth pains, and that the promised fruit of the end-time machinations of the evil one will soon be visible for all to see.

Nevertheless, the major battle is still ahead.  The Bible is very specific about the last war before the Armageddon.  It is going to be fought by Isreal against the combined forces of many nations, with Iran and Russia as the lead.  This war I believe, is what will turn the Islamic nation over to Jehovah.  The war will be fought by God Himself against these enemies of His people, and when the whole world sees what happens, they will then know and acknowledge that the true God is the God of Israel.  The days are still ahead, and the preparation has reached fever-pitch with the recent political marriage of Russia and Iran with the sole purpose of developing arms for Iran in exchange for money that Russia needs. 

Our reactions as  Christians should be what John said in the Book of [b]Revelation 22:[/b]17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It is either you guys don't read our posts or you just choose to ignore everything we've said so far.

I have said many times on this post that the God who gave that law in the Old Testament acted in the capacity of a Government over atheocratic state called Isreal.  He corroborated this in the New Testament where we are told that the secular government is God's tool to reward the just and to punish the unlawful.  When are you guys going to get this into your heads?  Maybe your constant refusal to see this is what makes people just ignore you, as no one has the time to keep repeating themselves over and over again.

With regards to the postings, I find that the author is just as ignorant of the scriptures as the same people who believe the numerous errors he wrote down.  He starterd off by quoting from John 1:1 and claimed that it is the Old Testament.  da ha ha.  

Of course the trinity is not something you can easily understand.  Of such, the Bible says we compare spirritual things with spiritual, but you are in the physical plain and you just cannot fathom this.  Let me give you an easier thing to think about and explain to us precisely.  Can you explain the composition of man?  What is your spirit, soul, intellect, emotion etc,   If you do not even understand yourself fully, how then can you understand God fully?

God was never incomplete at all at the time the man Jesus died.  You need to understand a concept, God entered into and inhabited a body of a man called Jesus.  At the time Jesus was walking in the deserts of Nazareth, His humanity was very much dinstinct from His deity.  The one that died and rose again was his humanity - you cannot kill God.  In the New Testament, Jesus calls attention to His humanity by calling himself the son of man, and He calls attention to His deity by calling Himself the Son of God.  As a man, we see him saying "I thirst", as God we hear Him say "Come unto me all you that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."  

The mystical figure we call Jesus Christ is what is known in spiritual circles as an hypostatic union.  A hypostatic union is when two different entities combine together to form a new entity while maintaining the dinstiction of each entity.  Jesus Christ therefore, is 100% God and 100% Man.  That is the mystery of godliness, and God in His wisdom can choose to be and do what He wants to do.  Or do you think otherwise?

How can you claim the concept of God having a son was strange to Jesus when it is clearly enshrined in the pslams.  Jesus acknowledged being God's son sevral times in the New Testament, and we see Thomas bowing down and worshipping Him calling Him my Lord and My God.  Please read through the following scripture and count how many times the Son of God is mentioned by Jesus Himself.  John 5 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.So I wonder where this man got his information from.

He also asked, "Was Paul's vision and conversion to Christianity corroborated by any of the known disciples"?  The answer is a resounding YES.  See 2 Peter 3: 15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

So what is the conclusion of the whole matter?  Your hero here has no clue what he is talking about and has Apostle Peter wrote, such people are unlearned and unstable and they only wrest with the scriptures unto their own destruction.  Don't make the mistake of jumpiong into the same boat with him.

P.S.
You guys should please present some facts and stop making accusations with no scriptural basis.  Posting stuffs like don't help your cause at all.  ajia23, I expect you to know better than that.

@emmie4j,
Na wah for you oh! You loose person for Iraq? This your venom pass me patapata.

@OlaAjia

So @TayoD, what has this statement got to do with the realm of this topic? no statement deserves the title OoP(Out of Point) better than the above stated.

If you have been following the train of my thots in response to your accusations, you would understand what my statement has to do with the topic. The statement shows clearly that Isreal was a theocratic state and you need to interprete some of God's utterances and actions in the Old Testament in that light. Please follow what has been posted here with some scholarship and not mere emotions.

And let me clear up your confusion about God visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children's children. Believe it or not, that is one of the greatest statements of God's mercy potrayed in the Bible. I'll explain. There is a man we all know called Abraham. This man served God in his generation, and up till now, his children (hundreds of generations after him) are still under God's favour because of this man's faithfulness. In other words, God promised that the effect of a man's sin will never go beyond his fourth generation but He never limited His lovingkindness to the fourth generation of the righteous. Instead, His mercy and kindness will always remain in the generation of the righteous.

If you look at other scriptures in the Bible that states this generational visit of God's wrath, you will discover that God limited it to the fourth generation and mentions afterwards that He reserves mercy for a thousand generation of those who fear Him. If this is not mercy, then I wonder what is.

I hope your eyes are now opened to see this hidden truth in God's Word and character.

OlaAjia,

The Bible declares in the Book of Isaiah, that the "Lord God is our Judge, He is our lawgiver and He is our King". If you look at that scripture closely, it reveals the 3 branches of government that is the bedrock of democracy around the world today i.e. the Executive (King), the Judiciary (Judge), and the Legislature (the law giver). Do you now understand my statement?

This is why I told you before that when looking at most of the things you talked about, you need to consider them from the angle that Isreal was a theocratic state. That scripture clearly shows that.

I beg to disagree that the Allah is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, neither is He the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. If Fatherhood and Sonship connotes only sex with you, then you just need to go beyond your carnal thoughts and think in a more elevated spiritual plain. Son of God does not mean Jesus was born of God in the sense of sexual intercourse and its attendant ramifications. Son of God means He is the second member of the Godhead who is one with the God-head in essence but dinstinguished in personality.

ajia23's submission which you hold to be the whole Gospel is just as ridiculous as it appears plausible. He claims that Jesus spared the woman caught in adultery just to show the hypocrisy of the Jews. Since when did Jesus begin to teach a truth while disobeying God's law? Jesus expressed God's mind absolutely, and God will do no different than He did if He was the one making that judgement. So what does that betoken? It means the whole truth of the ten commandments is LOVE and forgiveness. The ten commandments teaches us and let's us see how helpless we are to meet God's standard and it will only take the grace, mercy and God's love to make us acceptable to Him.

ajia23,

I'm sorry if you consider that a personal attack. But my picture of you at the time I was writing is exactly what I wrote down.

Much love.

ajia23,

Unfortunately, I am a little busy now and can't stay much longer online, but I'll give you some answers.

I have told you over and over that Christianity encourages punishment of law-breakers through the agency of Government. So why do you have to keep making this unfounded statement?

The law has never perfected anyone. It is love and grace that does which God brought through Jesus Christ. As harsh as you may think the Old Testmanet laws were (which were given through the theocratic government of the day), people still committed all manner of attrocities. The Bible testifies that though thousands of Isrealites were killed one day because of their sins, yet others followed in the same footsetps the following day. In other words, the law can not make you a God-fearing person.

Can I ask you, how will you know those wh are keeping the aw because of their love and reverence for God from those who are keeping the law because of fear of punishment? God wants the former, and you can never tell those who fall in that category until there is an enabling environment.