₦airaland Forum

@stimulus,

You have presented a very concise case which I am partly in agreement with. I'm very much aware of the scriptures you laid out and agree only to an extent with your interpretations. To clarify issues, I think we need to outline what the contentions are. These in my understanding are:

1. A woman usurping authority over a man.

2. A woman teaching in church (apart from older women teaching the younger ones).

With respect to the first issue, I am very much persuaded that the Bible is refering to a Man and Wife situation and not a Male to Female situation. The implications of interpreting the verse to mean a Male-Female relationship is to propagate the notion that ALL females are by default under the authority of any human with a Penis (I hope my use of words do not offend anyone).

My response to the second part will be in the form of questions.
a. Is 'teaching' a means of usurping authority?
b. Am I now in error when I read books written by women? Joyce Meyers and Gloria Copeland are among the best teachers I know in the Body of Christ?
c. Don't you think Titus 2:3-4 is actually relying on the experience of older wpmen as advisers to younger ones and not an attempt to cut out a role for them to teach the Word of God?
d. Don't you think Titus 2:3-4 is specific to older women and not to all women? How does that relate to the Prophecy in Joel with specific mention of young women.

I hope we can move forward from here and not keep marking time on one spot.

@topic,

If you are depending on your "works" to get to heaven, you have about 0% chance of making there at all.

If you are depending on the finished work of Christ, just relax, you are there already!

@denex,

The African Americans will be called back. The migrated Africans will return when they see that Africa has reached the level of infrastructural, social and economic development that they seek abroad. The Jamaicans have always wanted to come back home. The Haitians all of the Caribean will be part of the Union of the Nations of Africa.

Haven't we witnessed this before? Are you aware that Liberia was founded by a group of free born blacks and freed slaves who left the United States of America in their effort to "come back home"? What is the end result? The generations after them are probably cursing their ancestors for making such a move as they are looking for every means to get back to the United States.

You have the right to dream on, but Africa will never and can never become a single economy or nation as you so desire. Go check it out, the Arab countries such as Egypt feel more allegiance to the Arab League than they ever will be to Africa! MASSOB is still trying hard to secede from Nigeria! There's more likelyhood that Africa will rather disintegrate further than coming together!

@thjesilent1,

I agree with you in most parts except the statement that Adam was lonely! That is not possible. The reason why God created Eve was not to keep Adam company, but to make Adam a true representation of Christ. Adam without the woman represntated and occupied the adamic office as Jesus, while Adam with the Woman represents the Christ!

@topic,

Please check out this link. I think kickoff is almost always reliable. http://www.kickoffnigeria.com/stories/story8320.html

@topic,

Here's another one I got on the same day.

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Fax: :+34655340762
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@topic,

No be battery the thing dey use? Need i say more?

@stimulus,

Thanks for starting this thread.

I would offer just this: please husband, follow your heart if it pleaseth thee to set that carnal desire above the promptings of the Spirit.

Now I am not saying you are wrong, but doesn't that violate her submission to an express demand of her Lord to abstain from sex while fasting and praying?

@topic,

TV and Stimu, you two have moved us away from the topic at hand though I enjoy the exchange nevertheless.

This issue of church authority and man-wife relationship is a very touchy and personal one to me because I have watched a close family virtually disintegrate over it. Believe it or not, I think both of you are right in a sense though I tend to agree more with TV. I find it hard to make a categorical statement, one way or the other because the situation I witnessed was way too complex to be solved by saying to the participants "this is the way, walk ye in it." My advice then was, and still is: "follow the Spirit's leading." I guess that is the best advice from someone who doesn't want to get blamed for the eventual consequences, which either way won't be pleasant!

A married christian woman is in a very interesting position. By God's design, she finds herself under the leadership of two Lords - Christ and her husband. It so happens that the wishes of the two Lords are sometimes contrary to each other, especially if the husband is not born again as in the situation I witnessed. What happens in a situation where Christ tells her not to forsake the assembly of the brethren, and yet her husband tells her he will not have her go near the church? How does she handle a situation where her husband becomes a muslim and insists on dragging her and the kids to the mosque? It appears she has to scorn one of her Lord's wishes in order to please the other. She can't submit to one without disregarding the other.

Now this is closely related to the issues you guys are discussing here. Assuming the church calls out an extensive period of fasting and praying. And according to Paul, fasting must necessarily involve abstinence from sex too.  What happens if the husband is feeling randy tonight and wants to 'get it on'? At that point, she will have to make a choice of following the leading of her pastor (inspired by Christ to call out a fast), or submit to her husband for some carnal pleasing activities. What call would you make?

@angel101,

Is that the only question Nigerians could ask?

Why not? Failure to provide a source is plagiarism which though is frowned on in the west, seems to be no big deal in Nigeria!

@I-man,

I still don't know any practical benefit of tribal marks.

Neither do I. However, how many practical benefits can be weaned from most traditions?

@babyosisi,

circumcision of a male is nor a physical harm,God asked abraham  to circumcise his people.
A man will not be harmed in anyway by circumcision,it helps them keep the area clean of dirt.

Common babyosisi, that it heals does not make it less a physical harm. The tribal marks also heal up and both practice leave a scaring. If circumcision is no harm, why then were Isreal's sons able to wipe out a whole town when they tricked them into circumcision?

If circumcision and facial scarifications are the same to you since they are both your culture,why did you subject your kids to such a "barbaric " act of circumcision and refuse them the "joy" of ibal marks?

Are you saying circumcision isn't in the Igbo culture as well? The fact that i choose to circuncise my kids and not scarifying their faces is a matter of choice. That is the point her. People have the choice to do what they will to a great extent, especially when it is in their tradition and within the bounds of the law.

@chiogo,

I understand what u're sayin' but not in this age and time. those days are gone.

Traditions do evolve with time, but it isn't up to you to tell others what to do with their tradition.

yes, the man wears it with pride but the time when people do such things is gone.

You think so?

Like i said, some yorubas make fun of other yorubas with tribal marks especially at school, i know a few.

It is wrong of others to make fun of people based on their appearances. Those people should be ashamed of themselves.

But hey, it's your choice since u love it and it's in your family.

I never said I loved it, neither is it in my family!

do as u please

I don't need your permission for this and so do those people.

but remember it has its side effects so u be careful.

Circumcision does too. Infact, what doesn't?

@babyosisi,

stop comparing oranges and apples dear.

How is comparing a physical harm on babies a situation of apples to orange? Both are uusally done based on tradition without the consent of the individual involved.

I am still waiting to hear a person like the baba above tell us how beautiful he looks with his facial designs

Did you ask him?

@chiogo,

here's a tribal mark from Burkina Faso. Do you notice how th guy wears it with pride?!

@babyosisi,

I'm sure they also cry when they are given a bath,have you stopped bathing them?
Crying is a part of human nature.

Not when it is caused by pain.

How would you feel if you had a face like the baba above?

I personally don't like it, but I do not speak for everyone.  There are those who really do.

would you wish you never had them?

What diference would it make if I wish never to have been circumcised? The difference is that one is visible for all to see and the other is ehm very private

@Chiogo,

Only yoruba people have tribal marks.

How ignorant can one be?

@babyosisi,

Tayod,does circumcision of a male child harm him physically?

Of course it harms the baby. You needed to see my two boys screaming and crying when they were circumcised, and they were only a few days old. Infact my younger son was just a day old when we had him circumcised.

Is it very necessary to circumcise?

No it's not just as it is not necessary to have tribal marks. The jews circumcise their kids based on a religious tradition, while other people including yorubas use tribal marks for verious traditonal reasons.

Are you by your argument saying those facial scarifications should not be condemned?

What harm has been done by the marks? I have no tribal marks but I was circumcised. Either way, my consent was not sought and neither decision has turned my world upside down.

@TV01,

So I agree with your second sentence, but that is neither here nor there as we are discussing if women can occupy said ministerial offices, and to my understanding (no wisecracks here  ), that's a NO! Will a mature Christian man submit to someone else's wife? Then it's not to far a stretch to ask him to submit to his own wife is it? It's convoluted at best. So I also agree with your 3rd sentence, but not your inherent implication that women can hold office. "if a man desires the office". It's not for women to covet such.

Are you telling us that you submit to the authority in your church solely because of their sex organ? Are you not guilty then of considering a man's person? I submit to the office that those people at my church occupy and not to their personalities or gender! So tell me, do you have any female boss at work? And will that man who finds it difficult to submit to a female authority in church do the same when he is building bricks for Pharaoh in the secular setting? And by the way, the Bible uses the word 'man' in a generic sense, and your reference to "if a man desires" is one of them.

Stand corrected, I don't. But why do people try and read various verses into church structure, except the very scriptures that talk directly about it?

We are gradually getting to those scriptures. However, no scripture can be interpreted in isolation of the others. Sriptures don't contradict scriptures.

Right on marriage (home), wrong on church, and doubly wrong when you suggest there are no scriptural specifics around gender roles in a church setting.

I still maintain my stand. The only time gender specific roles are mentioned is when it relates to marriage. That unit cannot be broken by any means.

No, it was the unregenerated sin nature, lack of biblical understanding and sheer ignorance that made so called Christians attempt to justify slavery (and war) via scripture.

i expected you to take this stand though I disagree with the issue of war. I believe war can be justified as far as the territorial integrit of a nation is concerned. Isreal's wars in the O.T. are mostly about their territorial integrity. Paul mentioned that the boundaries of each nation is set by God and if God resorted to war to mainting this integrity in the O.T., what keeps Him from doing the same in the N.T. I guess this whould be left for some other discussion.

TayoD, you no dey fear  . Surely you expect this particularly weak return to get smashed back with all the ferocity and contempt it deserves (even you under-arm serving paddy - Bro' Analytical - wouldn't attempt this  !).
Junia was "of note" amongst the apostles, not one of them. Junia is/was not and nowhere listed as an apostle (however you choose to categorise the apostles). And Junia' gender is at best debatable. Brother please! Important ko, impotent ni, abeg.

While I agree that Junia's gender is debatable, the Greek word is definitely feminine and I stand to be persuaded that she isn't female. As for the scripture you are reading differently, pwerhaps it will be good to pick up many translations and read what they say:

The Message: Hello to my cousins Andronicus and Junias. We once shared a jail cell. They were believers in Christ before I was. Both of them are outstanding leaders

NIV: Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

NASB: Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

NKJV: Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Young's Literal Translation: salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

I'll post a pic of my babe, then all gender/role confusion will leave you immediately  !

Na wa o. So you are of the company of those who lead a sister about?! Paul will be so dissapoitned with you. While you took his advice to have ministers of the Gospel work for their meal despite that the Lord has commanded that those who preach the Gospel should live by it, you have completely neglected his wish that "you abide even as he did".

@debosky,

I just saw your post while replying TV01.

so single women can speak/lead churches, after they get married, their rights become subsumed under the husband's right?

In so far as an issue that pertains to her family needs to be addressed in church, her husband will have to do the speaking. When the issue addresses the entire congregation, the woman can speak because she is a member of that body in particular. I hope you get my gist!

@TV01,

My point was that the verse quoted does not serve to strip Christians of gender in any and all situations. That verse is oft quoted to justify a "unisex" approach in church roles, but it's context does not suggest it should be applied to this. It talks more to racial, social, cultural and gender equality, which I for one am not disputing. That's not to deny that God has assigned outlined gender specific roles, responsibilities and sphere's of influence/operation.

Within the context of the church as a body, gender is not an isssue. However, the home is still regarded as a unit within the church (heirs together of the grace of life). Since that unit cannot be broken even though both sexes are equal member of the body of Christ, the pre-eminence is still given to the male partner to speak on the behalf of that unit. This pre-eminence exists ONLY within the context of marriage. Any attempt to extend it beyond this unit, is an attempt to propagate sexual inequality.

TayoD dude, we are no longer in Eden  ! I am not disputing this point, but I think you need to take your esoteric theology and distil it into real-life, day-to-day practical Christian living. The scriptural outline is clear from I Cor, Tim & Titus (and a few ancilliary others). The scriptures are pivotal and unambiguous to our understanding of this issue.

I don't understand what you mean by esoteric knowledge. I learnt long ago to not just read the Bible without trying to understand God's thoughts behind it. True we are not in Eden, but God's plan within the garden hasn't changed. What was He thinking about in Eden? Knowing what God's mind is helps us to understand pasages like Women not wearing men's clothes, not muzzling the ox that threshes the corn or not putting on clothes with a mixture of different materials. People who fail to understand God's mind endeavour to literaly carry out these instructions and end up making a ship-wreck of faith.

Men are to lead women, women submit to their husbands, women keep silent in church, do not take authority over or teach men in church, church offices are exclusive to males (mature, upright). Quite a few people try to spin them, but no matter how one reads and juxtaposes these verses, honesty demands you reach the same conclusion.

If men are to lead women, how come Deborah judged Isreal? Or was she a male? As you stated, a wife should submit to her husband and not every man out there. The woman told to keep silent in the church is the married one. Like I said in my reply to LuvinGuy, this is to maintain the order of the home within the church. Where are we told that church offices are exclusive to males? Is this the same church that confesses that their is neither male nor female in Christ? My conclusion remains that the gifts and callings of God are not gender based!

@LuvinGuy,

“Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.” I Cor. 14:34-35.

I am puzzled by anyone who reads this verse and concludes that Paul was refering to all women. The later part of the verse clearly indicates that Paul was talking to married women. The context of that scripture indicates that Paul was concerned about order in the church. Like TV01 stated earlier, Paul reiterated that the order in the home is not meant to be broken just because we are in church!

When an issue regarding a family is raised, the husband should be the one that speaks on the behalf of the family and not vice versa. This is why Paul said the wife should go home and discuss with her husband so they could have a common front. However, the husband must always be the spokes person for the home.

That scripture cannot be applied to single women by any stretch of the imagination.

@FACE,

I did not make any u-turn on my stand on the topic, and I will appreciate if you can point out where I was in support of the topic.
For the sake of clarity, I only conceded that the tattoo analogy was not a suitable one regarding facial marks, but I still stand on my view that the topic will only breed more and more animosity here.
Modifying the heading of the topic would remove any ambiguity as to the real motive of the poster as the Yorubas are not the only group practicing facial scarification in Nigeria.
The manner in which facial scarification is inflicted on infants without their consent is no different from the circumcision of babies “when they are still latched on their momma’s bosom”. Both practices are either cultural or religious and there are people who practice neither.
Those who view circumcision as wicked and barbaric may view your approval of circumcision as primitive. When you point fingers at someone else, you have at the least, three of your own fingers pointing back at you.
Since you agree so much with the topic, can you tell me what will be the useful outcome of discussing the sudden realisation that “ Yorubas still give tribal marks to themselves”?
Regarding those that have tattoos in very prominent areas of their bodies; you are not in a position to classify them as freaks. You have to avoid stereotyping other people without getting to know them on personal levels.
Although most tattoos could be concealed, anybody you can identify as tattoo bearing would have had the tattoo on display at that time for all to see. You can only identify something that needs visual identification by seeing it. To confirm that someone has a tattoo, you have to see it.
Back to the message I tried to covey with my initial response. We all have our prides and also have our flaws. We also have our individual and cultural differences. There is no point in deliberately rubbing the perceived flaws of other people in their faces just because you are aware of them. Issues can be discussed constructively without resorting to any form of prejudice designed to humiliate and hurt other people’s prides.
“Though young men throw stones at frogs in sports, the frogs do not die in sports but in earnest”.

I couldn't agree more with your persuasuion. And by the way, those who think 'circumcision' isn't mutilation just because it is acceptable to a lot more people are just turning logic on its head. In both cases of tribal marks and circumcision, physical harm is done to a child without his/her consent.
And just like tribal marks in Nigeria, circumcision is becoming less popular in Europe and America. German hospitals don't even offer the services anymore and they consider it babaric for anyone to circumcise their kids. In the U.S., insurance companies are weighing the option of paying for circumcision becuase of the aversion to it by a section of the public. These I know as facts!

@TV01,

TayoD, ah, ah, off you go again on one of your "mystical" journeys. I don't know about "Church expressing Mystical Figure (Christ)". I do know about Husband and wife, mirroring Christ and His Church (bride even).

By and large, we are saying the same thing even if you choose to make fun at my use of words.

Presumably you'd follow that line of arguement as you champion same-sex marriages and gay-homosexual sex. After all, there is neither male nor female in Christ

Don't give yourself the liberty to pre-empt my action and belief in a lifestyle that is unequivocally condemned by the scriptures. And by your answer, you tacttically side-stepped the point I made.

Dude, stop it already

Stop what!? This is very pertinent to this discussion. We need to make it abundantly clear that God views a married man differently than He does an unmarried man. It is what makes the difference between God's declaration of "very good" and "it is not good."

Did I say otherwise? Although I wouldn't argue it on your basis above.

Okay let's straighten this out.  1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.. I'm sure you'll agree that the entire passage is actually talking about authority. I also hope you'll agree that the man and woman as mentioned in the passage refers exclusively to a husband and wife. If that is not so, then we must conclude that every man must be the head of any and every woman.

What this means therefore is that in a church setting, no male has any preference over any female whatsoever. Authority is either expressed through the ministerial offices or the marital relationship. Stretching it beyond these two is totally opposed to divine revelation.

We've had long pow-wows about office, function and role. Now about gender, sex and role. Now I understand why you have to take some of the positions you do.

Now that you understand my position, please correct me if I think your position suggests that God's promise to pour down His Spirit upon all flesh in the last days is predicated on gender.

I'm not saying that God is carnal. John 4 says "God is Spirit". Presumably since gender or sex have no role to play (as we are all one in Christ), why can't women lead homes, or better still be "husbands"?

Good question.  The fact that the Christ image which is what marriage typifies still gives pre-eminence to the Head (though we are His body) necessitates this arrangement.  Besides, the role of each is specifically mentioned in scripture as relates to marriage but same is not the case when it comes to the Church.  

TayoD, please stop, you are starting to alarm me.

What alarms me is the thought that God picks his servants based on their gender. It is this kind of argument that made even Christians justify slavery and racial superiority from scriptures.

I outlined my position on Husban/Wife/Church earlier. Very simply too. As for the grace bit, nobody disputes this, but I would suggest that stepping outside God given roles, functions, offices or spheres of influence couls affect the grace on one.

That God gives roles and functions in the church based on sex is untenable. Perhaps, paul was also mistaken when he refred to Junia (a woman) as a leading Apostle - Romans 16:7 - Greetings to Andronicus and Junia, my relatives, who were in prison with me. They are very important apostles. They were believers in Christ before I was.

I can't say so authoritatively, but then again, I'm not your husband

You wish!

@TV01,

I guess you missed my gist altogether! What I am trying to say is that the issue is about Christ and how the church is supposed to express that mystical figure. In Christ, there is neither male nor female which nullifies your statement that roles are assigned based on gender!

The Christ image was prefigured in the garden of eden only when there was marriage between a male and a female. Now think about it this way. When God create Adam, He said it was not good that the man should be alone because the male Adam was not a representative of the Christ without a wife. God created the woman (the sex is not an issue here) so Adam could become the image of the Christ.

So then, authority over the woman is only exercised by a husband over her which is exactly Paul's argument in the NT. If you tell us that God apoints people into offices based on their sex, then you are teling us that God is carnal in His decision-making. How can the flesh be the basis of God's decision? The authority that the woman is asked to subject herself to in the NT is that of her husband and under no circumstance are we told that the male (because of their gender), are in a better position of grace than the female (because of her gender).

I hope I am clear enough now.

@TV01,

Christian women are not permitted to take authority over men. It inverts divine order.

Are you telling us that every woman is under the authority of every man? Isn't the scripture clear that it is a wife (woman) that is under the authority of her husband (man)?

Afam started this thread by writing:  We still hope that many will ultimately use discussion forums to learn more about issues they don't fully comprehend instead of fighting and abusing people that choose not to believe their half baked information.

Davidylan responded to the above statement thus: One only hopes that you will take your own self righteous advice.

Afam came back with the following: I will pass your very narrow minded questions to a mad man on the street to provide answers.
You think you know when you don't know.
When you find it fashionable stating that muslims worship idols then it goes to show how stupid and silly you are and tomorrow you will talk about christianity.
If christianity is all about what you have displayed here then being a pegan will be a far better choice. Religous blindness and bigotry at its best, you are a big embarassment to christian.

And the never ending cycle just continues!!!!

@denex,

You are completely out of order. You are as entitled to your opinion as every Tom, Dick and Cheney out there! While I thought the Poster must be hallucinating, your response portrays no better picture of yourself.

They now have camp grounds, say amen, they now call the quran the "sword of the spirit", they listen to the "little voice", they have a heaven too and have even gone as far as fabricated a messiah who will also come on their own specially arranged resurrection day. Maybe we should bend over backwards and start calling them christlamists!

The illegitimate will always attempt legitimacy by closely associating itself with the legitimate.

@Idinrete,

WHAT ABOUT PASTOR, APOSTLES, EVANGELISTS, LADY EVANGELIST, PROPHET, PROPHETESES, REVEREND, BISHOP, CANON, PRIMATE etc

There is a huge difference here! A Pastor and the others you mentioned occupy offices that people associate them with. It's just like refering to someone as President, Ambassador, Teacher etc, What office do Alhajis or Alhajas occupy?

Question: Which biblical Prophet was said to exhibit madness?