₦airaland Forum

tonididdy:
Results so far from Lagos proves that LAGOS IS NOT A YORUBA LAND






#fact!

You are too tribalistic.
Most educated Yoruba everywhere in Nigeria and especially Lagos are Obidient!

tamdun:
Obi is doing well in only Lagos because of igbo population in lagos,he won't get 5% in any other sw states

So many Yoruba people are rooting for Obi in the SW especially Lagos,

IMEI:
Your answer is in the link below, if you're still not clear after reading it, then i can't help you

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/199949/read-in-the-name-of-your-lord-who-has-created-all-that-exists-is-a-command-to-recite-from-memory-not-from-a-written-page

Good Morning,

I read your link sir.
It tried to set a New narrative and tell what I should believe without supporting and JUSTIFYING the new position with either the Qur'an nor the Hadiths.

If the post was good enough, it should be able to effortlessly answer my questions.


1. Why did Mohammed remain UNLETTERED after Allah COMMANDED him to READ /RECITE three times?
2. What was the essence of the Command "Read"/"Recite" when there was no book given to be read nor what to recite known?
3. Why did Mohammed say "I cannot READ" rather than "show me what to read" or "What should I recite"?

Akinbahm:
cc Tenq... I don't want to assume you are here to criticize but lemme ask quick question are you here to learn or critique?

Lemme know how to operate with you... you know time and space is money.

I don't understand you sir!

My objective is to make us all THINK beyond the response of the standard narratives (which to most extent is full of holes).
I almost recited the shahada some years ago but some observable inconsistencies made me slow down to ASK Questions even of Christianity.

My Observation is that the TRUTH will always remain strong under INTERROGATIONS.

IMEI:
In Arabic, the word used for the command to “read!” is iqra’, from the root Q-R-A, which means to both read [aloud or silently] from a written text or to recite something that one has memorized. Hence, the command to read can also be translated as “recite!” [Zurqani, Al-Mawahib al-Laduniyyah]

For a full explanation to your question, refer to this link

https://seekersguidance.org/answers/calling-to-islam/why-did-jibril-demand-the-prophet-muhammad-to-read-when-he-could-not-read/

I understand that contemporary Muslims would rather want to translate IQRA to RECITE rather than READ. However, it is NOT up to you or me to redefine any WORD or phrase we are not comfortable with with the issue of Religion. According to Islam, we have to rely by this list of priority on any INTERPRETATION
1. The Qur'an
2. The Hadiths
3. The Tafsirs
4. The Sunnah

I requested for the HADITHS because it is superior to any modern reinterpretation .

Can you give me reasons why I should IGNORE what the Hadiths say and take your website link over it (the hadith)?


Interestingly, your website link agree with me that IQRA mean READ! The site only attempt to explain the controversy


If IQRA meant RECITE, what do you think should be the logical response of Mohammed to Jubril?

IMEI:
We're going in circles, read all i've written

You're asking the same things again and again without understanding my answers

I gave you three different scenarios when Mohammed's responses could make a meaning.

Alright,
If you insist that IQRA mean RECITE rather than READ, then you should be able to give me a supporting Hadith that agree with you.
I need is a Hadith that agree with you AND it's source so that I can verify




Mind you, there are several hadiths that report this episode not just Imam Bukhari (Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 1, Hadith 3) .
And there are several translators from the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Pakistan etc that have translated the same hadiths.

So, all I need is a Hadith that agree with you AND it's source so that I can verify

IMEI:
Why was Mohammed's response to Jubril's instruction was "I CANNOT READ" rather than "I CANNOT RECITE"?

You have to understand that it's not actually just a command, it's a full verse of the qur'an

He replied that way because for the first three times, the Angel said READ without completing the verse and so the Prophet responded appropriately

He actually lacked the ability to read something written

Why do your Islamic scholars translate IQRA as READ rather than RECITE in your Tafsirs ?

Read is the exact translation that's why

If you're struggling to understand how READ and RECITE can overlap, lookup what white people call a book reading...a book is read aloud i.e. a recital

Read can have several meanings even in English language. If i ask you to read out what's in your mind do you need a book to do that? Or is the sentence wrong?

For the sake of argument, let's say the Angel was prepping the Prophet to READ out the verses to be installed in his mind which he didn't know then, but the Prophet assumed the Angel was referring to a manuscript

This argument is actually baseless

If your argument is that IQRA mean RECITE rather than READ, why do ALL hadiths of the narrative of when Jubril came to Mohammed never translated Mohammed's response as "I CANNOT RECITE" instead, they ALL put Mohammed's response as "I CANNOT READ"?

Secondly,
The Command to Read and Mohammed's response make sense especially to a person who CANNOT Read.

A person who cannot read doesn't even Need to see the BOOK or MANUSCRIPT to respond: "I cannot READ"! Don't you think so?

If Mohammed could read, his response should be
1. What should I read? Or
2. Where is the Manuscript?

Thirdly,
If Jubril's Command was RECITE rather than READ, it is extremely stupid for the answer to be "I cannot RECITE"!
Everyone can recite.

Mohammed's response should then be
"What should I recite? " Without the drama of Saying " I cannot RECITE"!

Lukuluku69:
Ok

Let us wait for the next thread then

Okay Bro!
Have a beautiful night rest!

Lukuluku69:
So, I should wait on the sideline until your confusion cook up another thread?

Alright then.

It's not as bad as that o!
I always appreciate logical and fact based discussions as the point is not just for the sake of argument.

I almost recited the shahada some years ago and the experience was a good one for me. It helped me to start questioning my faith as a Christian and at the same time opened me up to knowing Islam.

If I ask any questions, it is simply because I haven't found any good response from Muslims. On the other hand, I appreciate when people ask me questions too about my faith: I will answer and respond to the best of my knowledge and understanding.

Many things seem trivial UNTIL they are subjected to questioning

For those just coming in, the post and resulting questions is presented


Islamic narratives speak of the first time Allah sent his words the Qur'an through the angel Jubril.

Mohammed was COMMANDED three different times by Jubril to READ. With each command, Mohammed was squeezed by Jubril (we don't know whether this was a punishment OR an aid to Mohammed to be able to Read).

Qur'an 96:1
ٱقۡرَأۡ بِٱسۡمِ رَبِّكَ ٱلَّذِي خَلَقَ

Qur'an 96:1
Read: In the Name of your Lord Who created,

Muslims agree that the Word IQRA "READ" was the first words of Allah to Mohammed.
Unfortunately, even at the end of this encounter, Mohammed could NOT Read.

Some Muslims are trying desperately to say that IQRA mean RECITE rather than READ. Unfortunately, two things get them busted
1. Mohammed said "I cannot READ" rather than "I cannot RECITE".
Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 1, Hadith 3
2. The Qur'an describes the messenger of Allah as unlettered
Qur'an 7:157
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find written in their own Scriptures, in the Law and the Gospel..."
3. Mainstream Muslim understanding of the narrative
"When Prophet Muhammad (صَلَّىٰ ٱللَّٰهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ) received his first revelation, he did not know how to read or write"
https://www.islamicity.org/11380/when-an-illiterate-man-was-asked-to-read/



This being said: THE QUESTION
According to Islam, we understand that when Allah says "BE", it happens
1. Why did Mohammed remain UNLETTERED after Allah COMMANDED him to READ three times?
2. What was the essence of the Command "Read" when there was no book given to be read?
3. Why did Mohammed say "I cannot READ" rather than "show me what to read"?

Thank you.

In perspective, imagine if Jesus told a blind man to SEE and the blind man could still not see!




Let's hope there'll be some interesting response

Cc:
LegalWolf Vanessa7 AntiChristian Empiree, Rash4ductluv, BabaHeekmat, Haekymbahd, motayoayinde, drlateef, Thatfairguy1, MrCodeSolo , Hisbah21, thatsleepboy1 , Lordmoh , OBALOLA55, x123xlolls , Lukuluku69 , mhmsadyq, Ibsaq , Herkeym001 , Sulasa07 , hakeemhakeem , abduljabbar4 ,olaalekan ,Friend22 , uthlaw , Exc2000 , AbuTwins ,Akhirastriver ,Akinbahm , Sino , KayB , youngdroly , jaggabban , ukeleh , Realismailakabir , Bami8064 Greatgr , Gaskiyamagana Compton11 , Alfarouq , MrCodeSolo Satmaniac saintHot, drlateef, Donkmore

Lukuluku69:
If there are abuses on any thread between Muslims and Christians, know that the Christians started it.

The only person that have problems with me on NL is LegalWolf. I doubt if you've seen me throwing insults at people in the course of opposing views.

Lukuluku69:
That said, I can actually see some changes in you. You are actually asking me to stop replying you by your last statement? You!?

Wonder they say never ends.

I think we've gotten to where no progress or change in views can happen. This is not just to argue, no: that would be pointless.

However, I still appreciate you for your inputs.

Lukuluku69:
You don't need an Hadith Translation that agrees with me. You are the one all over the place on this. The Muslims have no issue with it because they recognize the limitations in Translations. Some words can't be translated, some would need a phrase to do so, some don't have an equivalent at.

The issue of Iqra being translated to " Read" by most Scholars is not lost on Muslims. That word has varied meanings. I told you before.

Make whatever of what you want with it, it doesn't change a thing.

If I get you correctly, your interpretation is BETTER than those of your scholars who translated the hadiths into English Language.


I appreciate your response sir as you have tried as best as you can in explaining your point of view. I also appreciate that we can be on opposing sides yet discuss in a civil manner.

Thank you for your input Mr Lukuluku69.

Peace!

Lukuluku69:
To Appreciate the splendour of the horizon, you need to come out into the open and not from a Keyhole.

Start from Isaiah Chapter One. When you do, to understand Isaiah 29:10 won't be an issue.

I said:
Okay sir!
At your service. I will comply

But you've not answered this
Are you saying that verse 10 of Isaiah 29 refer to Mohammed?

Lukuluku69:
Read Isaiah 29 from Verse one to the end. Then come back for it interpretations. But I will suggest you start from Isaiah Chapter One. That way, you will appreciate the journey.

Okay sir!
At your service.

But you've not answered this
Are you saying that verse 10 of Isaiah 29 refer to Mohammed?

Lukuluku69:
The Scholars are straight jacketed with English. Examples abound in the Quran where there are no equivalent words in English but had to make do with what is available.

The Word Rabb has no equivalent in English but the Translators had to make do with Lord

The word Yisa/Isa can only take the form of Jesus because that is what the English know.

So, as you can see, the Translators had limited openings. That is why we prefer the Arabic. It is as it was for Thousands of years.

I understand you perfectly but just as you Lukuluku69 has found a much better translation of IQRA into English as RECITE, I want to believe that the Scholars translating the hadiths are excellent Muslims who desire the conveyance of accurate truth to Muslims. They are not dumb sir!

On that basis, I ask for their translation of the hadiths. Mind you, there are several hadiths that report this not just Imam Bukhari. And there are several translators from the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Syria, Pakistan etc that have translated the same hadiths.

So, all I need is a Hadith that agree with you AND it's source so that I can verify

Lukuluku69:
The problem with you, with your likes is that you take a verse or may be two and run with it.

Why not look at the whole Chapter to get a better understanding of what the Oracle says?

I can take you on, the whole of Isaiah, from Chapter One till the very last and if only you will open your eyes, those blind eyes of yours and you will see nothing but the rise of the Arabian Prophet and the rise of the Arabs.

But I know you won't see it, so why would I waste my time?

That deep sleep you alluded to is the slumber your God's children would be when the Arabian Prophets rises.

Let go of your ignorant arrogant mis-yarns and walk with me, I can wean you.....

I don't mind you taking me through the book of Isaiah, we learn everyday even when we differ.

Are you saying that verse 10 of Isaiah 29 refer to Mohammed?

Lukuluku69:
Bros, you are just blowing grammar. Learn some Arabic. It is unlike English. If you are Yoruba, you will understand it a bit.

What you have are just translations.

I believe that some of your scholars made the interpretations, they should be more qualified both in Arabic, English and Islam to translate properly in context.

That was why I ASKED
Can you show me a Hadith that reports about IQRA Where Mohammed's response was "I CANNOT RECITE" rather than "I CANNOT READ"?

Lukuluku69:
If it was not him, then who?

Verse 10 actually says who?

Isa 29:10-12:
"For the LORD has poured out on you the spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers has he covered.
And the vision of all is become to you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray you: and he said, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray you: and he said, I am not learned."

The verse was directed at children of Israel that God has poured on them a spirit of deep sleep. Was Mohammed under God's punishment?
Specifically, God refers to the prophets of Israel, their Seers and their rulers.

Please read verse 10 again and tell me it refers to Mohammed.

Lukuluku69:
Rather than go on another wild goose chase with the meanings of the verses I quoted, I think the question you should trouble your head with is who was given a book with the command to read and his response being I can not read.

And before you go on, that speech were not uttered in English o.

I just want to understand based on your Islamic Narratives.


Can you show me a Hadith that reports about IQRA Where Mohammed's response was "I CANNOT RECITE" rather than "I CANNOT READ"?

Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 1, Hadith 3 doesn't seem to agree with you, perhaps there are some other HADITHS that describe Mohammeds response as "I CANNOT RECITE "!

Lukuluku69:
Confused one, I cannot read, I cannot recite would still be Iqra!

That word has varied meanings. Read, Proclaim, Recite, desport are all shades of meaning with that word.

Do some Research in Arabic.

1. Have you agreed that Isaiah 29:11-14 could not have been about Mohammed
2. Why would Mohammed say "he cannot RECITE"?

The logical question should be what should I recite as EVERYONE can recite.

Lukuluku69:
As part of your education, find below the Biblical verse that foretold what you intend to mock in your depraved soul. Find the meanings perhaps it will set you on the right path. Perhaps.

And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
-- Isaiah 29:11-14
KJV Holy Bible https://bibliacomigo.page/fkaXzSMgjgzPnRTj6

Is this verse about Mohammed OR you want to understand the meaning?

Mohammed's response to the Command of Jubril clears the whole matter


The Hadiths say that Mohammed's response was "I CANNOT READ" rather than "I CANNOT RECITE"!

Can you explain why?

Dtruthspeaker:
So you admit and confess that he could not read! Ok.

Any more explanations.

Muslims should tell us what Mohammed's response to the command was?

AntiChristian:
Person wey no get wey go never get sense!

His interpretation will be be wrong and he'll continue to argue upon ignorance and arrogance!

I presented facts according to your Islamic sources. My addition to this was to ask questions.

1. Why did Mohammed remain UNLETTERED after Allah COMMANDED him to READ three times?
2. What was the essence of the Command "Read" when there was no book given to be read?
3. Why did Mohammed say "I cannot READ" rather than "show me what to read"?

Lukuluku69:
Yes he cannot read but he can PROCLAIM, he can REPEAT what he heard.

So, I don't understand your confusion here.

The Hadiths say that Mohammed's response was "I CANNOT READ" rather than "I CANNOT RECITE"!

Can you explain why?

IMEI:
Use your sense, even if the Prophet actually wanted to read at that moment, what would he have read? There was no written document there for him to read

It's a quranic command to all people and when it comes to the qur'an, reading is synonymous with reciting...e.g. if i know a chapter of the qur'an by heart, there'll be no need to open the book and read because i can already recite it by heart

The Prophet memorised all that was revealed to him through Allah's command and that satisfies the command to read

If you know anything about qur'an reading and reciting, you'd know that the qur'an is read to be recited and for understanding

For those who understand Arabic, you recite as you read for understanding, non Arabic speakers only recite the Arabic qur'an and read, but not recite translations of the qur'an

Reading and reciting the qur'an is one and the same in its original form i.e. Arabic

Hope that answers the question

Why was Mohammed's response to Jubril's instruction was "I CANNOT READ" rather than "I CANNOT RECITE"?

Why do your Islamic scholars translate IQRA as READ rather than RECITE in your Tafsirs

Lukuluku69:
Oh confused soul!

Iqra has a variety of meanings which "Read" is one of.

I can mean to proclaim, to utter, to read, to recite.

Do some research.

Thank you.
That was why I presented the questions

Why did Mohammed say:"I CANNOT...." ?

You may wish to educate me sir.

As usual, I expect some of you Muslims to ramble about every other issue except the topic at hand. If you are IGNORANT of your Religion, it is better to be Quiet than being an EMPTY Barrel!


Islamic narratives speak of the first time Allah sent his words the Qur'an through the angel Jubril.

Mohammed was COMMANDED three different times by Jubril to READ. With each command, Mohammed was squeezed by Jubril (we don't know whether this was a punishment OR an aid to Mohammed to be able to Read).

Qur'an 96:1
ٱقۡرَأۡ بِٱسۡمِ رَبِّكَ ٱلَّذِي خَلَقَ

Qur'an 96:1
Read: In the Name of your Lord Who created,

Muslims agree that the Word IQRA "READ" was the first words of Allah to Mohammed.
Unfortunately, even at the end of this encounter, Mohammed could NOT Read.

Some Muslims are trying desperately to say that IQRA mean RECITE rather than READ. Unfortunately, two things get them busted
1. Mohammed said "I cannot READ" rather than "I cannot RECITE".
Sahih al-Bukhari, Book 1, Hadith 3
2. The Qur'an describes the messenger of Allah as unlettered
Qur'an 7:157
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find written in their own Scriptures, in the Law and the Gospel..."
3. Mainstream Muslim understanding of the narrative
"When Prophet Muhammad (صَلَّىٰ ٱللَّٰهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ وَسَلَّمَ) received his first revelation, he did not know how to read or write"
https://www.islamicity.org/11380/when-an-illiterate-man-was-asked-to-read/



This being said: THE QUESTION
According to Islam, we understand that when Allah says "BE", it happens
1. Why did Mohammed remain UNLETTERED after Allah COMMANDED him to READ three times?
2. What was the essence of the Command "Read" when there was no book given to be read?
3. Why did Mohammed say "I cannot READ" rather than "show me what to read"?

Thank you.

In perspective, imagine if Jesus told a blind man to SEE and the blind man could still not see!




Let's hope there'll be some interesting response

Cc:
LegalWolf Vanessa7 AntiChristian Empiree, Rash4ductluv, BabaHeekmat, Haekymbahd, motayoayinde, drlateef, Thatfairguy1, MrCodeSolo , Hisbah21, thatsleepboy1 , Lordmoh , OBALOLA55, x123xlolls , Lukuluku69 , mhmsadyq, Ibsaq , Herkeym001 , Sulasa07 , hakeemhakeem , abduljabbar4 ,olaalekan ,Friend22 , uthlaw , Exc2000 , AbuTwins ,Akhirastriver ,Akinbahm , Sino , KayB , youngdroly , jaggabban , ukeleh , Realismailakabir , Bami8064 Greatgr , Gaskiyamagana Compton11 , Alfarouq , MrCodeSolo Satmaniac saintHot, drlateef, Donkmore
Akinbahm , IMEI , FATHAT

LegalWolf:
LOL! Is changing the subject calling you a future theif, ehn

Muslims like LegalWolf would rather change the subject of discuss than address the key issue
I am the Nemesis of Donkeys who carry the books but would neither read nor ask questions not comprehend.


Allah in the Quran QUOTING the Jews, said that that the Jews boasted that they killed their Messiah who is Jesus, the son of Mary and the Messenger of Allah

Quran 4:157
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allāh." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

Muslims do not understand the gravity of this in the Quran simply because they do NOT know who the MESSIAH is to be. If this is not true, I challenge every Muslim to explain by Islamic literatures the Concept of the Messiah.

Crash Course Summary on the Belief of Jews about the Messiah:
1. The Messiah literally means "the Anointed ONE"
2. There can only be ONE Messiah throughout history
3. The Messiah is a Direct Descendant of king David
4. The Messiah is the ONE to Enforce PEACE and Everlasting Kingdom of God on the whole Earth with Jerusalem as the Capital
5. The Messiah is the physical representative of the presence of God on Earth (Emmanuel)

Summary:
The Messiah is the ONE promised by God to Save and Deliver Israel PERMANENTLY from ALL their enemies
i. It would have been no issue if the Jews boasted that they Killed Jesus, son of Mary as its just one man in a million
ii. It may be accepted if they killed the Messenger of Allah because his message to them is too harsh to them
iii. It would be understandable if Jesus was killed because the Jews didn't know that he was the Messiah


QUESTION:
Holding the Quran to be exact literal words of Allah without errors,
1. Why would the Jews BOAST that they killed their only Messiah and what were they going to gain by killing their Messiah
2. According to Islam, who is "the Messiah"?


Let's hope there'll be some interesting response

Cc:
LegalWolf Vanessa7 AntiChristian Empiree, Rash4ductluv, BabaHeekmat, Haekymbahd, motayoayinde, drlateef, Thatfairguy1, MrCodeSolo , Hisbah21, thatsleepboy1 , Lordmoh , OBALOLA55, x123xlolls , Lukuluku69 , mhmsadyq, Ibsaq , Herkeym001 , Sulasa07 , hakeemhakeem , abduljabbar4 ,olaalekan ,Friend22 , uthlaw , Exc2000 , AbuTwins ,Akhirastriver ,Akinbahm , Sino , KayB , youngdroly , jaggabban , ukeleh , Realismailakabir , Bami8064 Greatgr , Gaskiyamagana Compton11 , Alfarouq , MrCodeSolo Satmaniac saintHot, drlateef, Donkmore

Maynman:
Which part is the exact words of yahweh, sir?
Or are they all FORGERY?

You're the one who forged it?


I am sorry, I'm discussing with one who is completely IGNORANT of the subject of discuss. It's a waste of my time.

Over and Out!

Maynman:
Is the bible not the exact words of yahweh, why the torgery and edition?

New Testament is the most doctored and edited document in history.

You should be more concerned about your own forgery.

The Bible is NOT the exact words of Yahweh sir!

Maynman:
Where in that verse mentioned “allah” talking? Did allah write quran?
Is that not the author words?

Ask any Muslim

1. Allah dictated the Qur'an to Mohammed through Jubril
2. The Qur'an is the EXACT words of Allah revealed to Mohammed
3. The Qur'an is perfectly preserved to the punctuation mark.

So, the Word of Allah again

Allah in the Quran QUOTING the Jews, said that that the Jews boasted that they killed their Messiah who is Jesus, the son of Mary and the Messenger of Allah

Quran 4:157
And [for] their (the Jews) saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allāh." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

I didn't know you have not much knowledge of Islam

Maynman:
Show me where Allah claimed such

I've shown you time and again


Allah in the Quran QUOTING the Jews, said that that the Jews boasted that they killed their Messiah who is Jesus, the son of Mary and the Messenger of Allah

Quran 4:157
And [for] their (the Jews) saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allāh." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.