Alao046: Is it the same case for jews and Hindus? Are they also killed if they openly declare to leave the religion.
Your facts are not correct. The Jews have a disproportionately high percentage of Atheists.
Hindus don't crucify anyone for adoption of other religions. It is Muslims who kill apostates especially when they have political power to do so.
Alao046: Take Nigeria as an example, i have more than 20 Atheist friends here in Lagos, i swear that i am the only one who was a muslim b4 becoming an atheist, the rest of them were formally Christians. Christianity is a chicken foot religion, wether u like it or not
Depending on where you live.
The first open atheist in Nigeria I know was a Moslem (a taxi driver at Ilorin). He hated God as if he has a personal vendetta against Him. The second open atheist I know was a lecturer (who gave up on Christianity because his father died despite his prayers).
Wherever there is fear of ostracization or punishment for apostasy, the higher the chances of a person not declaring their de-conversion.
In my 200L, I almost recited the sahada and become Moslem. I counted the cost: my parents would be hurt but they wouldn't disown me neither would they stop paying my school fees. I could do that as a Christian because Christianity is NOT by force.
You were a former Moslem, if Islam isn't a chicken foot religion, why did you leave it for Atheism?
MaxInDHouse: That's the way parable is interpreted. Remember that Jesus was talking about the Pharisees who are still alive standing right there. So it's about how they are feeling inside for instance they asked Jesus to perform a sign before they can believe that he is truly the Christ God sent to them. Please what other sign do you think Jesus can perform to convince those stiff-necked people? So it's not about signs but they just want God to come down and speak to them face to face before they agree!
As for the modern day Pharisees they know very well that they have no business whatsoever with God but just as the first century Jewish leaders they're prepared to face God's wrath after all it will not be in the presence of their deceived followers! Matthew 27:25
What are the so-called modern day Pharisees doing to show that 1. They accept the punishment given out to them and 2. They don't want their followers to have the same kind of punishment
Blessedofchrist: I also once passed out everything was gross darkness for three hours...doctors worked on me till i came back to life,years later when i gave my life to Christ,i can tell you i know what it feels like for someone to die,i was in ikeja going back home instantly it seems as if everything around me has vanished,the peace of Christ was in my heart..it literally seems as if i was walking a golden path to heaven,...so i understand that some people will go to hell and some heaven...some weaks ago,devils came into my room but night and where pulling my spirit out of my body...i was seeing my physical body until a bigger hand pushed me back into my body before i now woke up..
It is certain that there exists Life after this Life and the crossing point is death.
NDEs are different. Some is blank and others are deep and profound. But the important thing is that a man should take care of his eternal future.
2Cor 4:18: "While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."
saddler: True Christians dont celebrate Christmas.
Neither Jesus nor his Disciples celebrated their birthdays.
Jesus knew about birthday celebration but yet didnt do it. His disciples knew about birthday celebration but didn't do it and now you are celebrating the birthday of Jesus for him.
Are you more knowledgeable, righteous and holy than Jesus or his disciples?
If birthday was a good thing to celebrate, wouldn't Jesus or his disciples have celebrated their birthday?
Be wise
Like Jesus never went to the University He nor His disciples never watched the Television Jesus and His disciples never joined any choir
I wonder why Christians have began doing that which Jesus did not do
MaxInDHouse: It's not a literal event but parable so it simply means each generation of false religious leaders coming after them will not like to bear the same title they bear. That's why you can't see any religion today even in Israel where the leaders are called Pharisees, Sadducees or Scribes. Only Rabbis which means teachers of God's word. In each next generation of faithless religious leaders they will continue to change their titles to fit in so that unsuspecting interested ones will easily be ensnared {2 Corinthians 11:14-15; Matthew 24:24} today the Pharisees are here and what is most important to them? It's their religious titles which they want everyone to use in calling them {Matthew 23:8-10} with the last breath in them they're prepared to protect these religious titles, so don't be surprised when they are addressed as Pastor, Bishop, Reverend, Pope, Father, Apostle and so on. They will not yield the same positive results as those who were known by those offices in the past rather it's the fruitage of past faithless religious leaders like Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes that you'll see in their works! Matthew 7:16-18 So they are not repenting in a literal sense but dodging from the usual titles of those who have the same attitude in past generation!
NO! The chasm simply means what each person cherishes most. Faithless religionists cherishes worldly material possessions while faithful people are only interested in having a good standing with God no matter the condition they fine themselves. Matthew 6:24 So with what each person takes as paramount in life it becomes impossible for someone in one side to cross to the other. Matthew 7:13-14 Faithful people will be prepared to die for their faith while faithless people will be prepared to let go of the truth to keep worldly riches! Luke 18:18-23
The torment symbolizes agonizing pains in their hearts as they're seeing people who never attended their rabbinical schools of thought (seminary schools) preaching and teaching with efficacy! Act 4:13 For instance i was a Muslim before i became one of Jehovah's Witnesses, the first time my cousin who has been a pastor in RCCG tried to argue with me i had only spend 3 months studying with the JWs. He felt so threatened before the whole family as i was opening the scriptures and explaining with efficacy. That was when i first understood what it means to be tormented within because he can't just understand how someone like me whom he has know all his life as a Muslim suddenly became a strong advocate of Christ using the Bible as if i'm part of the writers!
In fact he almost hit me when he asked "how come you're this good in using the scriptures to support everything you're saying just within 3 months with Jehovah's Witnesses?" When i quoted the Bible book of Luke 12:11-12!
Can you imagine that they all brought me before the whole family back then i was just 25 years old, those claiming Muslims, Christians even the Traditionalists all wanted to convince me that i've left the truth! Now think of how tormented my cousin who is almost 40 and a branch pastor with RCCG for many years could feel in such a gathering when his efforts to convince me that leaving Islam for Christ is bad simply because i am studying with JWs who have so much equipped me with God's word! 2Timothy 3:16-17
Well i wish you were present that day you will see what torment for false religionists really meant!
I appreciate your patience, however I can't say I fully understand your explanations with respect to this parable because it seemed that the Rich man's had learnt a bitter lesson for which he dosen't want his brothers to repeat. He didn't even plead for himself.
He passionately begged Father Abraham to send someone if possible from the dead to preach to his brothers so that they won't make his mistakes.
What are the current spiritual leaders of this world doing to show that they do not want their members from falling into their kind of errors?
Alao046: Compare the ratio at which other religious followers become atheist to that of Christians who become atheist alone. The difference is very wide. I will say again it's bcus Christianity is more like a play group, no body on earth takes Christianity serious, even the Christians themselves don't take it serious.
Tell me what happens if you openly declare to de-convert from Islam to Atheism in any of this countries Saudi Arabia Pakistan Afghanistan Iran Somalia And some other states to a total or partial extent.
Now, can you find a single country in the world including the Vatican where de-conversion from Christianity can lead to your death.
Let me ask you a question. If you invite a friend to come and join a healthy, beautiful and beneficial group, after your friend join up do you think he loses his right to withdraw his membership? If you invite a friend to come and join a bad, destructive cult group, after your friend join up do you think he retains his right to withdraw his membership at will?
What's the difference between North Korea and USA with respect to citizenship?
LordReed: Do you consider this evidence of an afterlife? So an atheist will go to heaven even without believing in the god? Or an abusive parent will go to heaven and be the one to welcome the child he abused?
My personal opinion of this is, this man had a profound experience which has left an indelible mark on his psyche but it is not evidence of an afterlife.
Interestingly, 1. It's not an evidence of the Christian God or any other God/god 2. It however shows that life seems to be able to survive death 3. He was neither in heaven nor hell as well as his father 4. When he woke up, the experience was too real enough to affect his views about life and death. 5. It is scientifically impossible that from his out of body experience, that he'll be able to describe what the doctors were doing to resuscitate him.
Atheists may need to find an explanation to explain away this man's story. I'm not sure he is now a Christian but I'm sure he doesn't believe that death is annihilation.
Finally, I think that dying and the differences in NDE can be likened to a person coming to the planet earth for the first time. His experience depend on WHERE on earth he landed in. I'm sure you'll agree with me that a first timers experience in Sahara desert or Alaska in the North pole, New York city or Sambisa Village, North Korea or South Korea would be different even though it's the same earth. A day on earth isn't even enough to get to one's final destination whatever the initial landing spot is
MaxInDHouse: All thanks goes to JEHOVAH our God who promised to help us unravel sacred secrets by means of His active force (Holy Spirit) John 16:12-13 The rich man is the Jewish religious leaders who are disguising as workers in God's spiritual vineyard but indirectly they're working for Satan. Their brothers are generations of suchlike ones who will continue with that same attitude. God will not perform anything spectacular to warn false religious leaders rather in generations afterward, they will only have true servants of God who are doing the right thing so if they decide to pitch their tents against the true servants of God the only sign honest hearted individuals will notice is that God's servants will always stand out not having anything to do with false religious leaders who are deceiving themselves with contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines yet claiming they belong to the same God!
False religious leaders will always feel tormented each time true disciples of Christ open their mouth to preach and teach {Act 4:18; 5:28} that's why they will tell their followers not to listen to whatever Jesus' true disciples are saying because the truth always expose them as followers of worldly politicians. When false religionists are talking they may pretend by singing and praying together but when you look closely into their doctrines you will see clearly that they're not for the same spirit. Act 23:6-9 Only true believers have the same line of thought throughout the earth because what they're preaching and teaching is the truth. Others are deceivers that's why they'll welcome different ideas so far the one bringing it doesn't say anything against their teachings. So false religionists and their leaders will always feel bad and they will not like to hear the true disciples of Christ talk in any gathering due to the TORMENT the truth unleash on them!
Thank you so much for the detailed explanation.
If I get you correctly, the Rich man symbolise the Religious Leaders of Israel. If this is the case, what caused their change of mind enough to desire that followers do not experience what they are experiencing. When was this their repentance (so to speak ) activated? Did they repent during the time of Christ?
The GULF seem like an impossibility of the Religious Leaders (Rich man) becoming like Lazarus. Is it that they are doomed for being religious leaders?
Finally, what is "THIS PLACE OF TORMENT" as reported by the Rich Man (he obviously didn't want his brothers to come to the same place)?
Alao046: most atheist here where Christians before, Christianity is the weakest religion on earth. So It is very easy for a Christian to convert to atheism because of the nonsense and foolishness of the Bible. you will hardly see Muslims or Jews or Hindus become atheist because those other religious have strong faith and I think they are more solid than Christianity, so you hardly see people from those religions become atheist. most people here attack Christianity because they were Christians before, so it is what you know that you will attack.
Really? The greatest atheists have been European or at least of the first world root. They have attacked theism from Christian point of view and refuse to bother themselves with the so called weak religions that is not worth any intellectual vigor.
A Foremost Atheist like Bart D. Ehrman sees Islam as a JOKE with respect to intellectual vigor
MaxInDHouse: Please feel free to ask for the SYMBOLIC TERM you will like to know it's meaning after these first three!
Lazarus: The common Jews who knew only what the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes and other Jewish Rabbis told them. They're like beggars going to the gates of the rich man (Jewish religious leaders) desiring to feed on the crumbs (whatever the Rabbis agreed to tell them) falling out of the tables (doctrines of the Rabbis) at the gates {anywhere they can find a Rabbi)
Rich man clothed in purple: Jewish Rabbis who are also the rulers. Purple is the official royal colour of monarchs back then. They have all the scriptures in their head (rich symbolically) but will only dish out what they know will not fire back at them so that they will continue as the rulers of the people.
Sours in Lazarus's body: Rejection of the nation several times leading to their being dominated by pagan nations like Babylon and Rome who are like dogs taking advantage of the sours in Lazarus's body.
Feel free to ask for other symbolic terms in the parable!
Thanks for these How about the Rich man's brothers especially in relation to the Prophets they were supposed to have with them?
What also is the significance of the TORMENT experienced by the rich man in relation to the impossible Gulf of separation between Lazarus and the Rich man?
LordReed: 1. What do you mean by limbo or fetched?
It just simply means without a scene experience. Fetched means being directed to a new scenery
LordReed: 2. Why would an objectively existing thing be dream like? And why is recall quality the same as a dream recall?
Simply because you WAKE UP from the state of physical unconsciousness. Every experience during that state may be like waking from a dream because the scenery is completely different from what is normally obtainable
LordReed: Everybody dreams so what is the difference between these NDEs and a dream since the NDEs are more like dreams than reality?
It has been scientifically proven that they occur when there is no electrical activity of the brain. Dreams involve electrical activities culminating in REM state with movement of the eyeballs
LordReed: I don't think being unconscious precludes you from receiving sensory input. For example when we are asleep we still receive sensory input from our environment even visual on occasion.
The brain is still very much the active giver of dreams. Even animals seem to have dreams
MaxInDHouse: The highlighted is the keyword! You and i aren't saying the same thing!
There are differences in the three and i've explained every detail but it's like you want to see everything written word for word which is not possible.
Those declared RIGHTEOUS before Jesus never saw nor heard him so how can they become righteous through faith in the things they never heard? Romans 10:14 God awarded them that because they were willing to put faith in the first things they heard which wasn't spoken by Jesus himself but prophecies pointing to the coming of Messiah and they accepted it obediently.
The UNRIGHTEOUS are people who never heard the things of God before but lived by their conscience so God will also remember them even though they never lived up to the things He commanded unlike those declared RIGHTEOUS through their WORKS of FAITH!
The WICKED are those who deliberately chose to be evil so to whatever God says they will not yield so far nothing is hindering them from doing whatever they like. God will not remember this category during the resurrection because they dismissed God in all their dealings. Psalms 9:17
If you won't agree with this then there is no need for further discussion because it will lead to endless arguments! 1Timothy 6:4
MaxInDHouse: Well Jesus made us understand that our own God is not a monster!
If we are all unrighteous then it's humility and obedience that makes us different from the WICKED. The thief executed beside Jesus was unrighteous before his convertion but he is not WICKED, WHY? Because he humbly accepted the truth after thorough meditation on the life and ministry of Jesus so he later knew that if God's promise about the Messiah is fulfilled in his own eyes then he needs to repent and turn to God! Well there's no need for arguments it's simple you talk about your own God while i also talk about my own God! Titus 3:9
I don't think their is any argument here. The point is that our righteousness was imputed to us because we TRUSTED in Christ. Even the thief on the cross became righteous simply because he trusted Christ enough for his salvation. Luk 23:42: "And he said to Jesus, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
I guess that was why the bible says: Eph 2:8-9: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Our imputed righteousness for salvation is NOT by WORKS of RIGHTEOUSNESS but of FAITH in Christ
Sorry it looks like an argument but it isn't. We were probably saying the same thing in different words.
I am still interested in the symbolic interpretation of the parable of Lazarus. Thanks
LordReed: Well shouldn't everybody who nearly dies be having NDEs if there was truly an objective experience called afterlife?
I think it's a question of two things 1. How far the person was gone. (Was the person just left in limbo or fetched). 2. Ability to recall the experience as I don't think it is different from having a dream except that it looks/feel more real (some people routinely forget their dream experiences).
The fact that they happen to a significant number of people who have flat lined is the key thing. I've heard a report where a blast Nd woman reported similar stories with the sighted. The most striking for me is when the "dead" is able to witness what was happening at the point of death in the physical (like what the doctors/medics were doing and report of events at the point of death)
Here is a NON Christian influenced NDE for your perusal
MaxInDHouse: Good Morning! No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him! John 1:18
Whenever anyone talks to you about FEAR for the true God please think about the person who said:
Jesus said to him: “Even after I have been with you men for such a long time, Philip, have you not come to know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father also. How is it you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9
Does Jesus' attitude commands a fearful sight?
Please do not compare God's attributes to that of any angel because even though they are also His children in the spirit realms He doesn't introduce any of them to us as the model to remember whenever we think about Him, the one and only character God presented to us is Jesus {Hebrews 1:5 compare to John 3:16} so my friend look onto Jesus that's the exact photocopy of our God! Colossians 1:15
I think you attribute "weakness" to Christ in human form as the gentle one who cannot hurt a fly. Do not forget that it was the same Jesus who VIOLENTLY drove out the people buying and selling in the temple. Isn't Christ the same one who will rule the earth as with a rod of iron? Rev 19:15: "And out of his mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treads the wine press of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."
Rev 1:17: "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand on me, saying to me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:"
Jesus is not as "teddybear-gentle" as you think sir!
MaxInDHouse: Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, how i wish you concentrate on the person who has been chosen to do the JUDGING? My friend, always think about Jesus! God will not do a single thing about the good or bad people "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth" Matthew 28:18 So the JUDGING has been given to God's only begotten Son, therefore whoever Jesus wants to live will live and anyone Jesus condemns is a walking corpse! Luke 9:60 How do we arrive at the RIGHTEOUS, UNRIGHTEOUS and WICKED setting? Well it's by meditating thoroughly on Jesus' utterances! Proverbs 2:1-5 Jesus is the coolest person to deal with so RIGHTEOUS ones who are humble like little children will enjoy his company {Matthew 11:28-30} UNRIGHTEOUS ones who feels sober after knowing their blunders are tenderly cared for by our Master, Lord and King {Luke 7:38-50} because a humble and obedient friend died our King shed tears {John 11:35} but as for the WICKED who deliberately chose to be evil our King will exterminate them! Luke 19:27 So meditate on that, believe in the only begotten Son of God and stop doubting the RIGHTEOUS JUDGE! Isaiah 11:4
All of us are unrighteous before we know the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God {Psalms 14:3 compare to 1Corinthians 6:11} and we made the U-turn! Ephesians 4:22-24 So it's only those who remain adamant that's causing heartburn for the Holy One of Israel {Genesis 6:6} that's why God's word defined them as WICKED!
The bible make it clear that NO one is truely righteous before God. Rom 3:10: "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"
Rom 3:23: "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
We were JUSTIFIED because of God's grace through the atonement of Christ through our FAITH in Him.
What this means is that there are just two categories of people 1. The righteous ones who became JUSTIFIED through Christ 2. The Unrighteous ones who have NOT being justified by Christ.
A wicked person is a relative term (as can only be judged by God) within the class of the unrighteous ones. Rom 1:18: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against allungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"
2Ths 2:12: "That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
MaxInDHouse: I will do that but first of all i want you to see clearly the difference between the RIGHTEOUS, UNRIGHTEOUS and WICKED!
Rom 1:29: "Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,"
You can see above that wickedness is not another class but example of unrighteousness like the others like deciet, envy etc
1Jn 5:19: "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in wickedness."
If one is not righteous, he can only be in wickedness
MaxInDHouse: Fear is the word that comes to the minds of the disobedient and rebellious {Hebrews 10:26-27} as for loyal and faithful ones who are striving to imitate JEHOVAH He is our God, Father and dearest Friend. That's the picture Jesus painted of the one who sent him whenever he refers to Him as "FATHER" Luke 11:13
In other words, just as described by you, God is nothing to be feared. If humans can hardly stand before Angels, how do you think he could stand before God (except God extend such grace to him)?
MaxInDHouse: There is a misconception on the part of readers here, it's three categories of people: The RIGHTEOUS~ People who knew God's laws and struggled to live by it even when others around them ignore God's righteous standard.
The UNRIGHTEOUS~ People who never lived by God's laws, it may be that such ones don't know anything about it so God view them as unrighteous but they are not WICKED.
The WICKED~ People who ignored God's laws and rendered their God's given conscience dead. This category are the ones God will not remember during the resurrection!
I wish this is exactly the way the bible distinctively defined the deference between the righteous, unrighteous and wicked people. The definition is no biblical basis.
Rev 20:15: "And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Rev 21:8: "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
Shouldn't you classify fornicators as unrighteous rather than wicked (from your definition). We know nice people whose only sin seem to be this!
MaxInDHouse: God only remembers good people they may be those who knew and lived by his laws or good people from their own reasonings doing everything they know is good to others based on their conscience even when they don't know God's laws. But as for those who deliberately chose to be wicked, they will not be remembered!
You have still just repeated your self without answering the questions.
Don't you think that the resurrection of the ungodly dead mean that they were NOT forgotten by God?
Rom 1:18: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;"
1Cor 6:9: "Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"
1Jn 5:17: "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not to death."
This is what the scriptures say about the unrighteous!
YOU PROMISED to say what EACH of the symbols mean in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man
Irupetepete: you only believed what they told you, you didn't witness it... You see nothing
Since you are among the 70% of those who has nothing to say about death, such are not even aware that they were dead in the first place. There's nothing special about you bro!
Irupetepete: All these are lies.. I was dead for over an hour this year, I saw nothing.. I repeat, you see nothing. When I woke up, I could have fabricated convincing lies, atleast more than 70 people saw me lying dead.. If I told them I saw things, they will believe and help spread the lies.. So if anybody tells you he died, woke up and saw things, slap sense into their empty heads
Not everyone remembers their NDE. It's not an experience unique to Christians alone.
The Driver of my department had one NDE experience. He was trying to cross a river and two tall men came to him and said: young man, if you cross this river, there is no coming back! He turned to look at them and suddenly discovered that he had slumped and people were trying to revive him.
This other one happened to a woman in my church: Mrs Ajulo. She had been sick for some time and brethren from the church went to visit her in the hospital. They were all chatting until Mrs Ajulo stopped to tell them: "can't you see them..?", "The Angels have come for me..."...she was the only one who could see the Angels as the visiting brethren were confused about the sudden change in conversation. She suddenly began to briefly speak in tongues and slumped on the bed. The brethren ran to call in the Nurses...she was pronounced dead.
Less than 30% of those who were resuscitated has NDE report to give. More than 90% of these don't publish their testimonies.
MaxInDHouse: That's what ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE of God's word can mean for you! He (God) doesn't feel comfortable with the acts of wicked people {Genesis 6:5-6 compare to Habakkuk 1:13} so He will not like to remember them since the memory of them will bring back their evil deeds to sadden Him. Psalms 9:17 compare to Proverbs 27:11
You paint the picture of a God is soft and fluffy Teddy Bear. Even His name is fearfull
Deu 28:58: "If you will not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;"
Exo 23:27: "I will send my fear before you, and will destroy all the people to whom you shall come, and I will make all your enemies turn their backs to you."
Deu 10:20: "You shall fear the LORD your God; him shall you serve, and to him shall you hold, and swear by his name."
Why should we fear this kind of your teddy soft God?
MaxInDHouse: The second death refers to what will later happen to resurrected ones after Christ's 1,000 year reign. Before Jesus begin ruling the earth he will first exterminate all those who aren't ready to obey him {Luke 19:27} so it's during his reign that he will begin to raise the death (only those who are righteous from God's standpoint and idol worshipers who lived by conscience because they never had the opportunity to know the true God) It's the Christians that will be resurrected first because they already know God's plan to renovate the earth, while they're doing this those who served God before Christ will also be resurrected before pagans who only lived by conscience. After the resurrection of both then a global training will begin because we must become perfect before we can be ushered into everlasting life. During that global training anyone who is not ready to live by the things we are learning by then will die once he is 100 years old {Isaiah 65:20} after 1,000 years Satan who has been locked somewhere so as not to distract people will be released to come and do the final test for billions of PERFECT people {Revelations 20:7-8} all those who still follow Satan after they've been certified as PERFECT will be destroyed all with Satan, by that time what the Bible book of Romans 5:12 is no longer the cause of their death but what they chose to do when they find themselves in the same condition that Adam and Eve found themselves in the beginning {Revelations 20:11-14} So they're dying the SECOND TIME not because of Adamic sin but due to their own rebelliousness! Revelations 20:15
Let's say I don't have any problem with this, however, that is not what I am speaking about.
Don't you think that the resurrection of the ungodly dead mean that they were NOT forgotten by God?
They have to be remembered for them to be resurrected. This resurrection is BEFORE the second Death.
MaxInDHouse: Let's resolve the case of first and second death then we will go into Jesus' parable to discuss each symbolic term!
MaxInDHouse: God's word is to be read carefully, studied diligently, meditated upon thoroughly and pray fervently for you to get the accurate knowledge thereof! Proverbs 2:1-5 God's word says the wicked will be forgotten just as they forget God {Psalms 9:17} and Jesus referred to people who aren't searching for God with all their hearts "DEAD" because their names will not be found during resurrection. @ Act 24:15 Paul said there's going to be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous, he made us to understand that those who searched for God with their hearts has been declared righteous even when they never learned from God's only begotten Son Jesus {Hebrews 11:4-32} whereas Jesus said true Christians are greater than any righteous one who lived before John {Matthew 11:11} because they've learned righteousness of God completely from Christ! Romans 10:4 So who are those whose names will not be remembered during resurrection? Well it's people who never knew God's laws and never care to listen to their conscience. As for those who lived by conscience they will be remembered even though they never knew anything about the true God! Romans 2:14-15
If there was a resurrection of both the godly and ungodly, don't you think that God's memory of them is intact?
Couldn't the remembrance be speaking about the second Death in lake of fire rather than the first death?
MaxInDHouse: Jesus was speaking to his own people who knew from God's word that the dead are conscious of nothing so the Pharisees to whom he is talking knew very well that the parable is about them. Luke 16:14 If you want to know the meaning of each symbolic term i can help you: Lazarus, beggar, rich man, his gates, his torment, Lazarus's desires, his sours, the dogs, their death, father Abraham, water from Lazarus's fingertip, chasm between them, rich man's brothers, Moses and the prophets
But if you don't it's OK!
Please I'll like to know o! And especially why the living and the current lives of the rich man's brothers were included
MaxInDHouse: NO! God only erase the memories of worthless people {Psalms 9:17} but as for those doing His will their names are well documented in His memory book! Job 14:13-15; Malachi 3:16; Revelations 20:15
So what God's word says @ Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 is that all things in the brains of the dead is gone at death, their memories only works when they're alive. That's why you can't find any dead person who came back to life relate anything while he was dead.
1. The scripture in Ecclesiastes did not discriminate between the righteous and the ungodly. 2. Simple comprehension shows the frame of reference "UNDER THE SUN"!
But then, why would Jesus speak a parable completely negating this. (Lazarus, Rich man, Rich man's brothers )
lady2sexy: Well I can’t speak for all the white folks the few I have met in my place of work are all irreligious. in fact the few I have worked with mostly from western Europe, US, Canada are strictly anti religion.
Just last week the white folk sent to head our department almost sacked our head of operations because of our usual morning devotion. He yelled at everybody like a mad dog and warned that it should be the last time we bring our god damn unproductive religion obsession to the office. He used all sort of f word to denigrate and insult everybody and blamed the dwindling fortunes of our department on our unproductive religious act. He said instead of mapping out strategies on how to improve and achieve our job objective we resort to clapping, dancing and making noise. though we tried to explain that we have done all those before trying to back it up with prayers but he shouted us down.
The previous white guy that headed our unit ain't religious but he's indifferent about our morning devotion as long as we do our normal safety tips and work meeting. other white guys in the coy are also not really interested about religion. only two out of lot identify themselves as Christians but they are basically non practicing as they know next to nothing in the bible. We understand they are Christians as a result of family background.
This is really serious, they brought religion to us and now they are no longer interested.
guys have any of you witness this anti religious stance while working with white folks. And guys that live abroad especially the western world educate us on how an average white folk perceive religion especially Christianity because if am left with this little experience of mine I would say they are satanist
The first and second world wars destroyed the foundations of both their faith and family. It was just all about survival at all cost and with time, the fathers who had no time for church gave birth to children who never went to church.
Economic, Political and Financial development are not to be strictly prayed for. They are to be planned and worked for. No one needs to be a Christian to become rich and economically successful
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun! Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
That's why no resurrected individual in the Bible said anything about what happened anywhere while they're dead because there is no knowledge in the grave! Ecclesiastes 9:10
This is what the Bible teaches so if people are now seeing something different from what God's word says then know that demons are at work! Galatians 1:8
I agree with JW organisation that the memories of the dead like Mary Slessor, Alexander the Great, Adolf Hitler and even Anini is completely forgotten both by God and man. Is that not what the highlighted said?
■ God created man a physical being this from the clay of this earth without a spirit component to man's self, apart from the breath of life(spirit) - Genesis 2 vs 15 - 17 - which God also installed in animals He created - Genesis 6 vs 15
■ When Adam fell, God judged man and condemned mankind to die a Physical Death(dust to dust) - Genesis 3 vs 19-22. There is no reference to Adam experiencing Spiritual Death and so this idea is foreign to scripture. So also is the idea that mankind inherited spiritual Death from Adam.... how could we inherit that which God never decreed? Instead like our ancestor Adam, we experience Death of a Physical kind when out time on earth is over.
■ Jesus Christ restated the fact that the birth we experience when we are born of our mothers is a physical birth - John 3 vs 1 - 8. Like our ancestors before us, we are Born from Clay of this earth and when we die we return to the earth. However, through Jesus Christ, we can receive Salvation from God's Judgment and curse - John 3 vs 16 - 21, redemption from Physical Death, and promotion onto eternal life by being born-again- born from Spirit where a new spirit is installed in us by God - Ezekiel 36 vs 25 -27
Kobojunkie: I made my position know severely in the course of this discussion. Go through my comments to see how I have had to repeat my self several times on this.
You asked for scriptural justifications, and you were given. Onus is on you to address each scripture and show WHY it cannot mean what I think. A blanked judgement was what you did with a fiat
Kobojunkie: As the referenced passages reveal, Adam was not created with a special spirit assigned him different from the breath of life which animals were also created with.
There is also the fact that Adam missed out on eternal life (Spirit of Life) by his sin against God..
You asked me the same kind of question and I gave you more than enough scriptures. I am not asking that you repeat your position, I am asking that you justify your position with scriptures
Kobojunkie: Could you try to be more concise cause it is hard to follow whatever it is you are trying to say with all those verses embedded.
1. The same breath of life that was breathed into man in the beginning, was also breathed into animals by God Himself. So whatever attributes you wish to claim of the breath of God(indeed spirit since God is Spirit) you would also need to have apply to animals- Genesis 6 vs 15
2. Isaiah, along with all those anointed or chosen by God in His Old Covenant Law , God bestowed His Spirit on. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that Isaiah and all the other prophets, kings, of Old has spirits since God decreed it so in His Law to them.
3. As for what is written in Ezekiel and beyond , the tense as you already submitted indicated a new spirit to be installed in the future.
You asked for scriptural justifications and it was given. I assumed you will do justice to the scriptures
Christianity Etc › Re: Are You An Atheist Or Anti-christian?? by TenQ: 4:57pm On Dec 26, 2021
