₦airaland Forum

yungboss: i dont get you trac, what do you mean...do you think i just made up a story or what! Sorry it sounds like a story to you but i say my experience and not made up stuffs like you think. for your info, i used a merc c class for over a year, a c220 which i sold...so you dont need to tell me about making sense or not. I'm a huge fan of mercedes, even though bmw drives way better... My cousin had a toyota camry 2.2 back in 2009...i used the word 'probably' at different points in my comment, so i dont really understand what you talking about. whats your grouse and the unneccessary anger? your comments are too vague to be understood....

Not at all – don’t get me wrong.

I responded only to your first paragraph not the second or your personal experience. As I stated, the first paragraph (i.e. concluding with “on the road you see today). I don't see how I would profit from discrediting your personal experience(s) or be angry anywhere.

Pardon me if my response was vague. It is an inherent limitation in written communication; emotions and point-of-views are sometimes not conveyed.

yungboss: brov, no one meant quarell here you know, it was cos of the way you presented your comment earlier...
BMW vs Benz...hmmm. bmw will eat a mercedes up in the area of stability and balance, you really cant compare both, they are different in that area. Bmws are much more superior in terms of handling,better suspension and steering feedback. Around corners they perform better than almost all cars (apart from some of the porshe and maybe those high end eurocars: lambo,ferrari etc) on the road you see today.

This is what I responded to. The only thing correct was the quick-ratio steering.


This is truly emotional and not even factual. In manufacturing, it is opposite. An autopsy of a BMW definitely will deter you from using your own hard-earned money into purchasing one. The build underneath its magnificent garb is not what many would expect. A car made of aluminum and plastic does not worth the premium price as oppose to aerospace light-weight-high-strength-steel. Many of the BMW’s are not fully German. Some are partly American (do your research on that). It is a small company with little capital compared to Mercedes Benz. We don’t have to talk about combustion technology because there is nothing to discuss on this aspect. If you want to delve into this aspect, bring to my attention a BMW model that had its engine mounted in the entire chassis and driven at top speed for 27 hours (neglecting refueling) as a part of quality-control. A hint: many cars can barely top-speed and remain on that notch for 15 minutes without a drop in mechanical efficiency. Another thing to note is that was civilized while doing so.


You highlighted stability but you were only right to one degree; a very limited degree indeed. This also is vehicle motion and configuration. The vehicle itself is configured or setup with steady-state* forces/acceleration (lateral, longitudinal) and transient (which is dynamic) state forces/acceleration (lateral, longitudinal) and steer relationships (or slip angles; which is how much you run wide from intended direction). The characteristics are logged and the best set-up that applies to the widest range of road-conditions is configured. It might sound easy but it takes months plus cold-weather tests are factored in. In most of these cold-weather conditions, the test-vehicle is shipped to a region that is completely ice in land (somewhere in Europe). What’s my point of view here? In response to your initial reply, a Merc is factory configured in a particular way that favours a wide variety of conditions plus occupancy safety. The softer turn-ins and softer ride is deliberate for the sake of predictability and safety. If you are getting to the limit assigned to the particular model by MB, you will understeer and your human instincts kick in. You will have to reduce your velocity and in some cases, renegotiate your cornering attitude. This practice is called “terminal understeer.” All road-going cars have terminal understeer to prevent the driver from going anywhere close to the limit. BMW’s have lower terminal understeer; after all, you shouldn’t be driving a BMW if you don’t have basic knowledge about driving dynamics. The M’s are the worse: no margin at all. It is a very unforgivable vehicle and once you hit the limit, you will be out of control. It is to a great advantage when done right. If you want a vehicle with near-neutral** handling or neutral handling**, then it is up to you. You modify it yourself with the understanding that the state of your vehicle is suited for you with an altered state of reaction if the need calls for it in emergencies. Whatever you do, you just don’t dabble near the limits of your vehicle because you will get no warning as you reach your performance envelope. BMW's are firmer for a sportier ride but there is a trade-off.


Better suspension: another emotion conclusion. I don’t know how to tackle you on this one because it is quite wide and I am not sure where or how your opinion was drawn. MB’s chassis is very complex and BMW’s are no where as close. A chassis that integrates performance and comfort with torque factored in cannot be compared to a chassis designed and optimized for performance alone. It isn’t easy building a chassis as MB does – on rough roads, most of the vibrations and impact is absorbed and spread throughout the chassis, leaving a filtered-out impact to you. The ride quality in BMW’s is not pleasant. The setup is best for twisty roads. You might argue that it is performance oriented but the 911 Turbo S refinely comfortable, yet the performance around corners is remarkable. You can imagine how the lower 911 models would fare greater in comfort and refinement.


You are correct about the steering feel. Slow steering ratios and little feedbacks. It has been refined but it’s still to the same progress. It is what is selling. That is what people want. The Cayenne Typ 958 sold well and people traded their Typ 957 for the 958 due to these remote characteristics. Porsche has transitioned to electric steering also.


Above all, your mentality is old. Your perception of MB’s and BMW’s is old. That idea died in fall of 2009. Mercedes for the first time integrated performance without an acceptable depreciation of comfort/ride quality in their model 212 E Class and serious torque to match. This is for the normal series models. The was to reflect the 124 models but with advance technology. This ate into BMW’s market share. The last BMW (model after the E60) has been softened and not as wild as the previous models have been known for. This, I believe was a last-minute conclusion over foresight predictions; the chassis is still sport. The current E Class as boasted has more than 80,000 patents in one build alone, as announced by Mercedes.


The reflections a driver gets from a BMW:

• A non-conservative styling
• More machine interface: quicker steering ratio, unrefined tactile feel of certain duties (clutch, brake, gas, manual gear lever changer)
• Engine that is biased for horsepower, hence the exhilarating effect
• Chassis compliance to stiffness


_{*Steady state is linear motion at constant speed and cornering.
*Lateral force is cornering forces
*Lateral accel is increasing velocity upon cornering forces
*Longitudinal forces is the forces that are before and after acceleration
*Longitudinal accel – accel/decel upon longitudinal forces
**Neutral handling - when lateral acceleration is applied, it doesn't understeer or oversteer but goes the intended geometry as the driver steered}

yungboss: Around corners they perform better than almost all cars (apart from some of the porshe and maybe those high end eurocars: lambo,ferrari etc) on the road you see today.

This isn't anywhere as true.

yungboss: brov, no one meant quarell here you know, it was cos of the way you presented your comment earlier...
BMW vs Benz...hmmm. bmw will eat a mercedes up in the area of stability and balance

Many cars require a technique to go fast around corners. The Corvette, Viper and some other vehicles bluntly handles poorly. Professional drivers can tame these vehicles for they are experienced. Also, road-going cars are not the standard for how well a car handles. This can only be concluded when you have acquainted yourself with the racing championships. This alone will change your perception.

yungboss: here comes trac the mercedes fan ok for ur info, i used a merc c class for over a year, a c220 which i sold...so you dont need to tell me about making sense or not. I'm a huge fan of mercedes, eventhough bmw drives better... i shared a toyota camry 2.2 with my cousin back then in 2009...i used the word 'probably' at different points in my comment, so i dont really understand what you talking about. whats your grouse really cos your comments are too vague to be understood.

I'm not much of a Mercedes fan as I was in the 90's to mid 2000's and I don't keep up with MB’s due to their builds. However, they are great cars with astonishing engineering innovations. It might surprise you that I really don't like cars but the technology and the science is what I'm interested in. It is hard finding another car as good (if you understand how cars are designed and manufactured) as Benz's.

The point you made about BMW against Mercedes was based totally on emotions and perceptions. That is what I referenced.

VolvoS60: Despite my username, never owned a volvo

I think the styling of the 1st generation S60 has got to be among the best I have ever seen.

As some posters have said, volvos have (arguably) the most comfortable seats in the automotive industry. It is rumoured that orthopaedic surgeons were part of the design team involved in putting together the seats and general ergonomics of the S60 & S80 series.

What put me off was the problem of maintenance. Volvo forums on the web strongly advise using mechanics who have the VADIS software for diagnostics. Without the software, any attempt at repairs will be a shot in the dark. I have visited DARCARS (they claim to be an authorized Volvo dealer & service centre) on the Badagry expressway but I'm not sure how good they are. It is depressing to read stories such as those of sojioguns (i remember when he was making his enquiries on this forum about getting his S60), owendei and eyoiba. Surely there must be mechanics in Nigeria who have the experience, the know-how and the hardware to fix volvos and other european brands? I have been meaning to open a thread on pain-free car maintenance in Nigeria. Anyone have any practical tips?

Volvo's are easy cars to fix compared to some others. It is a huge problem when you don't understand what you are working with/on; worse even, how the vehicle as a whole operates.

For every car that you are associated with, you have to learn it thoroughly. People just start working on cars without paying the price to understand the core-fundamentals. It is an unforgiving vehicle when you mess things up. It is worse when you begin to "re-engineer" stupidly. VADIS is not necessary to keep your Volvo in operating standards. They are meant for dealerships or Independent Repair Centres and paying annually is serious thousands of dollars. Volvo uses its own tools and many parts have to be ordered from Volvo (as many European cars are). It is a car that isn't for everyone. Some models are problematic or guinea-piggy. This came as a result of the Ford merging. So, certain reVolvolutions should be avoided (referring to year models). On the other hand, some models is nothing but sheer stupidity in design. Logically, the engineering design did not yield much in acceptable practices and had been unproven to be dependable. There was no explanation of how the design inefficiencies were resolved, so reliability sunk because the engine was put in wrongly. I don't think the model is still in production but that was some serious cost setting.

Volvo is an expensive car. Parts are expensive, labour is fairly cheap. An average mechanic cannot work on a Volvo. An experienced European mechanic would averagely get things done without prior knowledge. There aren't much precautions to be aware of besides the standard precautions. A difficult car to work on is a Mercedes Benz. Diagnosing a Mercedes is work and sometimes, you have to sleep over it. The tools will not help you if you lack understanding or experience. Understanding the fuel-loop cycle on and MB gas engine is complicated on its own and this is the tip. If you are stumbling at this point, you aren't getting far in understanding the engine itself because it is heavily integrated with pneumatics or control-systems. This is just combustion. The brake-family is another, then other aspects. Volvo's aren't as complicated but they aren't conventional either. People buy cars and don't consider who will fix them. The "smarter" ones purchase cars and think they can repair them by themselves without spending months learning the vehicle's proper operation and then fixing things when things break.

For liability purposes, many shops will not carry some basic service on a Volvo. Most of the reasons were lack of tools. Some services are dealer-only. Some tools are just the rarest or less-common configuration.

VolvoS60: Despite my username, never owned a volvo

As some posters have said, volvos have (arguably) the most comfortable seats in the automotive industry. It is rumoured that orthopaedic surgeons were part of the design team involved in putting together the seats and general ergonomics of the S60 & S80 series.

I never heard of this: what the Volvo engineers said was that the seat styling was gotten from their swedish culture. But we are talking about two different things here. I don't find it hard to believe what you just stated. It is far better and logically explainable than having no clue. The feeling you have after an extended drive cannot be traded for anything. I am referring to a duration of 5 hours of driving. In my experience when I got out of the vehicle, it was as though I got off the couch after watching a 30 minutes format. I was not a bit tired or fatigued in anyway: no stress anywhere. This isn't to be funny - it was a s though you hadn't really done much. It wasn't the ride because it is stiff and ground-hooked. I don't like the headrest - nevertheless, no car has given me such ergonomics on an extended journey as a Volvo has. It is one of the vehicle manufacturers that I will recommend to people based on their certain factors.

efetoma: End Of Discussion! God Bless You Trac.

You are appreciated

You don't have an S70 if it only needs four plugs. As a matter of fact, you don't have a true Volvo if it uses four plugs or more than five. A real Volvo as of today uses 5 plugs and 5 cylinders, L5 configuration. The 850 and S70 is one vehicle. I cannot say anything about the 850 but the core of the chassis is basically the same, save for some chassis enhancements and refinements. The ratio of parts shared is almost close to one (in my opinion).

The issues with the S70 isn't many. The car does have fairly poor cooling but you have the light-pressured turbo and wouldn't be much of an issue. I'm not sure about the year of your vehicle and the driven wheels. The AWD seems to be more demanding in maintenance than the non-AWD models.

Other than interior rattles and plastics breaking, I have no problem with this vehicle. There were certain recalls to the vehicle and as of four or five years ago, the accelerator-by-wire was finally addressed.

The plugs it uses it the multi-leg plug and it is the three prong plug and so far, this is only gotten from Volvo. It is also cheap and should be replaced every year. If you use the standard single prong plug, engine misfires after extended drive or continuous heavy acceleration (or after spirited-driving is completed). The flame-trap at this point would be blocked with oil or soot. The plugs are cheap and each prong functions as designed.

The engine mount will break. This is surety because it is an L5 and the nature of these engine design is the primary and secondary main forces are in balance but to a certain degree. It is one cylinder short, so the consequence (left and right motion) is transmitted to the engine mount. This is the layman's explanation. The engine mount is right in front of you when the hood is opened and it is quite small. The mount itself is not rigid and you will want to stick to that because the frame of the car will be subject to vibration. It is also a high-revving engine and it will be more pronounced. There are some polyurethane bushings but I can't really comment on that.

Suspension: the chassis is sport setup. The tyre is driver-friendly and not tyre friendly in the rear. Vehicle is stiff but not harsh. The springs actually strain negatively. In other words, they sag and shorten. If you have to replace it, a Volvo spring is not the way to go. The dampers aren't that great in quality (my impression) The suspension in general has a shorter lifecycle and will require complete replacement when a suspension is due. The suspension has high performance components. The strut mount seat on the right passenger side always fails. It isn't uncommon to replace it twice a year. The strut mount is priced according to your personal opinion but the labour is another subject entirely. Volvo made it soft to give an acceptable ride but the cost is high due to frequent replacement. I got this solved. The part was replaced with a Mercedes part. I can't remember what I settled for but 7 years later, no issue. I am just remembering now (as I type). Steering also is super-sharp and vehicle doesn't roll/bend in corners; it just leans lightly (except under heavy cornering). To a degree, it doesn't feel like a front-wheel-drive car in dynamics but I can still tell because the front wheel is burdened when steering under heavy braking. This is not obvious.

Brakes - if you have Volvo brakes, they will be replaced frequently. They are softer than the conventional rotors. You have to replace the rotors with the brakes. The O-ring in the master brake cylinders will wear out and an unexpected reaction. I can't remember clearly if it was serious pulsating on the brake pedal but inappropriate stopping or no stopping or brake-travel to the firewall or both. Either way, you will have it fixed the soonest. The problem is simple: use a non-Volvo master brake cylinder. No torque-steer or torque braking.

Electronic stability: the system board in the module (computer) will crack. It is $600 (as of 2005) and the dealer was kind to tell me that it will still break because the Scandinavian climate doesn't get so hot and it is a design that was overlooked. You will have to rebuild what you have and have heat-sinks-wraps embedded in it. It has been 8 years for me and the problem never reoccured. It is very common. When this computer goes out, you loose ABS, Traction Control and ESP with an annoying dashboard light that violates the contrast of the dashboard.

Transmission: It uses the Aisin-Warner transmission fluid. Transmission has to be serviced at major intervals. It is also very strong.

The intercooler shroud or radiator support. This is made out of plastic. In other cars, you have the frame of the car (metal). This houses your intercooler, fan, headlights, headlight washer motor, bumper and a few others that I can't remember. If it is broken, everything is out of alignment. Replacing this is costly and the possibilities that it will be done right depends on who works on it.

Timing belt: when Ford acquired Volvo by '99, Volvo ditched the hydraulic tensioning and switched to the mechanical tensioner. This surely shortened the life of the timing belt service by half. If you are into the '98 models, the first batch of production had the hydraulic and you replaced the timing belt every 140,000 miles. It isn't so for the later '98 and up. The mechanical setup was stricter. You have to replace the timing belt and the mechanical tensioner. Replacing the belt alone gave you time. In about 10,000 miles, the tensioner will fail and you might as well farewell the engine and give it up for a rebuild or get another engine. This definitely was certain. This is the caution. If no date is by the timing cover with respect to the last service, ask questions. If you own it, and you have no record, do that quickly. It's just one of those duties that aren't funny.

Combustion technology is good, multi-port fuel injection and exceptional gas mileage and acceptable performance. Oil used is 0w40 Euro formula or 10w40. If it has been using synthetic, you cannot switch to fossil oil. Engine note is good and also a high revving engine.

Keythumbler: this is so funny, I'll let other discuss this. Maybe, they will share their experiences. It's funny because I wasn't involved. I wouldn't have had mine addressed if the service tech did not pester that on me. It worked most of the time for me.

Subframe mount: this will need to be replaced. It sags! Ride comfort will be compromised also.

I cannot remember the model for the Mercedes where the strut seat was transplanted from but it worked. Don't use another Volvo strut seat. I can't think of anything else besides the piece of plastic between the windshield and fore-dashboard. It is so thin and the sun breaks it. The day-time running sensor moves out of place.

If you plan to purchase a Volvo, be sure it is well maintained. If not, avoid it. Volvo's are expensive to maintain but they work when properly maintained. All the issues that I stated above were at my early years of ownership. I ditched many Volvo parts and installed race or reinforced parts. Truth is that at the time of the S70, Volvo was broke and corners were cut in the production of their vehicles. It is also an emotional car and it was also my daily driver because it was slightly smaller and easier to park than my E-Class. It just wasn't anywhere as refined. It is a car you can also work on. No matter what anyone tells you, when you are about to exit your vehicle, leave the engine running for at least half a minute then kill the engine. This is to prevent coking of your turbocharger and to extend the life. Everyone has their opinions and emotions will run high stating better turbocharger design is what is made today. It is abnormal replacing the turbine after a hundred-and-some-odd miles. It is easy to work on it (compared to Mercedes Benzes).


Overall, it is a strong and very predictable vehicle. I have not had to do much service besides tune-up in many years on it. This also is the only car where I did not use complete Volvo parts in my repairs. As stated earlier, I had to use race, high performance or heavy duty parts for some unacceptable failures. I also had to replace parts that I never knew existed in a car but this is due to the cost-cutting and financial set-back Volvo experienced. Taking this to Nigeria - I'll recommend some suspension changes. The springs and dampers will have to be replaced as a fundamental with non-Volvo parts. Lifetime springs and lifetime dampers is nothing short of the best.


All the best!

yungboss: brov, no one meant quarell here you know, it was cos of the way you presented your comment earlier...
BMW vs Benz...hmmm. bmw will eat a mercedes up in the area of stability and balance, you really cant compare both, they are different in that area. Bmws are much more superior in terms of handling,better suspension and steering feedback. Around corners they perform better than almost all cars (apart from some of the porshe and maybe those high end eurocars: lambo,ferrari etc) on the road you see today.
A '01 toyota camry V6 tried following me, around a bend on the ughelli express (that axis),delta state. He kept up nicely with me at 150km/h, i was impressed, a fairly sharp curve. As soon as we came out the curve, i was getting ready for a little show but the driver just let off on the throttle immediately,way below 140/150...i guess he realized he made a mistake trying to following me,probabaly thinking to himself that it was dangerous thing he had done. Well we didnt race,we just continued normal driving.
You'r drivng one of the most powerful cars in the world bro, thumbs up

Explain! It is people like you promoting what's unreal. Nothing you said made sense. Almost everything you wrote is incorrect (save for your last paragraph). You've also been deceived greatly by propaganda marketing and mushy opinions.

ziddy: Most common oil in Naija market is 20w50. Then you can go for Mobil 1 (0w40) which costs an arm & a leg compared to the regular stuff.

I searched for a 5w30 all over Ikeja couldn't find one, I was told to go to Ladipo. had to settle for Mobil 1.

0w40 is a heavy oil. M1 0w40 is european formulated and it is meant for many european cars with certain engine materials and design. Sadly, it has been reduced in potency. It will not give you the protection needed for a Japanese vehicle. 20w50 is plain unreasonable for a standard performance and high performance car (maybe American cars). 20w50 should be on super performance cars and higher. It's a different issue for trucks for they are designed for torque under heavy-duty conditions. The difference in oil weight can be observed when you lift a quart each. At operating temperature and higher, the viscosity (the hotter the oil, the heavier it gets) would be too high for your chamber and it wouldn't reach the upper engine as the proper specified oil would, thus leading to poor upper engine lubrication and unaccounted burden on the oil pump.

thomasjohn: thanks for all the advise, dnt know much about all this wax,sealant ish, i just came across something called "detailing" dat gives cars extra shine and protects the paint.
pls tell me more about sealants, their pros and cons and pls where i can get one in lag.

thanks

Basically, what it does is to add an thin enamel layer (polymers) to your already finished paint film. What you see on your car as paint work actually isn't paint but paint-film. This is plastic-bonded. The colour (that is your vehicle's colour) is oil and it can evaporate to some degree leaving it to harden (then break) or oxidise. As of 2007, automotive in paint-coat technology was the use of paint-film. A few years later, I came across a different technology in the bonding of the Camaro. It had something to do with magnets or so (don't quote me on this). This is what differentiates a car when the paint finish is being tested with a tool when you trade-in your car. What the sealants do is to act as protection against the sun and harsh conditions (for instance - high speed driving under hot weather). The hard enamel (acrylic or silicone) takes the brunt instead of actual finish. When you buy a car from the dealership, it is polished and sealed from the production plant. Polish and coating is to be done every year and this detail goes as high as $300+. This is also stated in your owner's manual. If your original vehicle finish is dull, polishing and coating it will not restore its original integrity. You'll have to clay the exterior using a clay compound. This is abrasive but you need a clay compound of very fine "grits" to clay-blast the dull surface off. It's like sand-papering but the purpose is to exfoliate the vehicle's finish in other to favour the brighter and desired colour. After this procedure, polish can be added. Most sealants have polish integrated in them. Apply your sealant and buff.

A point of caution: you do not need to use a clay compound. As a matter of fact, I don't recommend it.
Another point of caution: I will strongly (and I mean strongly) recommend an electric buffer (rotary buffer). It is a very stressful job by hand and may appear perfect but a few days later, about two or three percent imperfections may surface. A few rainfalls and you might loose encouragement. You might stop halfway into the project and it isn't good.

I will recommend a few brands to you.

If you own a Mercedes Benz, the Menzerno Nano is best. This is what MB uses.
Zymol - This is good but might not last 52 washes. You might have to reapply the formulation a few months later.
Zaino - If you find this, I highly recommend this.
3M Products
NuFinish Car Polish - the price is cheap (about $9+) on this, the shine/reflection is on the upper scale. I can't tell you why it is cheap but it is very good. I believe this is a standalone.

With the rotary buffer, you can do it yourself.

thomasjohn: please where can i get very quality car wax and sealant in Lagos.

thank you

You have to be careful what you get. I am not sure if wax should be recommended. A product without wax is best and the result is totally rewarding all year no matter the washes or rain-pour. They are hard-enamel or acrylic coating/sealants and they out-perform waxes. You might need some clay to fine away the dull surface for a uniform appearance for polish preparation. There are also cheap ones too but they are no slouch; it out-performs wax. Wax is out-dated, though some companies still develop them but not much coughs out of the primitive technology. It is too soft and not durable and the draw-backs makes alternative technology convenient. -- though some companies have released products with claims to defy this logic. If you can't come across the acrylic based polish-sealant, the silicone coats should be your compromise. It is no where as good but it sure beats wax in paint preservation.

All the best!

Ngutor: Seems this wonderful thread is fizzling out. Too bad. Just hope I get a response. My wife wants a merc and am thinking of a c-class in the range of 180/200/230 from 2000 to 2003 model. Anybody got any idea about particular issues with them

You'll only have to worry about quality/build issues and misc.

Seun: Does anyone here use the ML350?

Do you plan to buy or you own one? If you are in the market for one, I'll recommend the bluetec (I presume you were referring to the gas model) or the 550. It is smoother and overall, a keeper. The 350 is a sectioned=off V8 and rough by nature and I'm sure will get louder as it ages which will be obvious (the 320 does). Since it is an after-thought, certain issues will arise; and have already arisen and it is expensive. The difference in miles per gallon between the 350 and 550 is one. So fuel consumption cannot be in choice. The technical recipe and reward for the bluetec is very seductive. Torque is enormous and very usable (especially when you need it). Longevity also is appealing.

I have to question the integrity of the tool or database you are using. SAE 20w-50 has NO business with a Camry. I doubt if the oil pump is strong enough at 100 degrees C for suction for that oil weight. The 40 weight oil is also a bad choice. The oil can't flow through tight orifices. The manufacturer states 10w-30 and the following will abide by that statement: 0w-30, 5w-30 and 10w-30. Nothing more; that is for all weather.

sultaan: Why not, because that is the most common weight in the market i.e 90's model year, early 2000 is 5w30, late 2000 is 5w20.
There is no car in the market I know that calls for a 20w50, maybe a f350, or tractor trailer, but no car.

The M5 for many years used the Castrol 10w60 also known as BMW S62 oil. The W cancels out after cranking your engine. With this weight of oil, it made no sense mechanically to fire up the engine and drive spiritedly as some people would do, so revs were limited till the engine was warmed and the tachometer redline limit changes from its restricted redline limit to the non-restricted redline limit. I am not sure if the CLK63 Black Edition uses a heavier oil; so far (as far as I am concerned), all AMG's use the 10w40 (and the normal series).

tedanne: hi Trac,
quite an age i might say.wondering why you havent been active here with the rich knowledge you are sharing with fellow NL and outside this forum.is there any other medium you can be reached outside NL? i have some questions i need answers to on the AMG models and would be happy to get these answers.i can be reached via okiemute@gmail.com.
rdgs

Tedanne,

I am actually not a social butterfly and I get on NL when I see a notification in my inbox. I rarely check my inbox as well because I rarely get e-mails. I will answer your AMG questions (if it is within my understanding) here if it's trivial. If the nature is quite sensitive, I will shoot you an e-mail in response. Also keep in mind that I am almost clueless about the current AMG models because they are new and my interest shyed away from MB's years ago. However, I am still an AMG enthusiast for a four-door sedan. I am just unimpressed with how it turned out to be when Mercedes acquired the entire division and quality issues went down.

Are you planning on buying one? Half the fun is hunting for one.

emmyz09: hello mr Trac/ Sienna
please i need your help in analysing peugeot 806 2000 model atomatic i like the car but i need real expert details so as not to regret after buying the car.
its a little urgnet though kindly oblige me. am grateful here is my email emmyz03@gmail.com. and every contribution is welcome .
thanks in anticipation of ur responses

Funny enough, I don't know the car you are talking about. I am not a professional and I don't like cars; just the engineering and selected models. Siena will be able to help you , for he is a professional and has experience with a wide range of vehicles.

charlesu69: [b][/b]hello trac!

have been following this thread and from wat hv seen i should commend ur effort.

i own a mercedes w203 c320 2001 model and am having some issues:

1) i do have a constant battery drain when car is parked. have traced everywhere including the seat control modules as advised from different forums but to no avail. my electrician has done all he could but still a flat battery every morning

2) similar to mr Tweex u helped, i still have the same ESP/BAS/ABS not available error. dunno how to go about that issue.

3) i have fuel pump issues for which i bought a bosch w203 fuel pump, but i guess i bought a fake one as the performance of my car is crap. i observe that if am in traffic for a while with the AC on i get an error code "CONSUMER VOLTAGE UNDER DEFECTIVE". dis happens at 500rev/min, however if i maintain a 1000rpm the battery sign with that error code goes off? my question is dat could it be the performance of the engine affects the charging system that i turn shows that error code?


thanks in advance.

Charles,

This is my understanding:

You have a voltage distribution problem or high voltage distribution error. You will need a volt amp tester with load resistance integrated into it to probe the alternator. There is a procedure checking the regulation voltage of the battery and alternator on MB's and extreme caution has to be taken. This test will narrow out the culprit (either a bad or unspecified battery, a failing alternator or a hypothesis that a short has occurred somewhere). The alternator aspect would be the most challenging because there are other areas within this department to look out for. The technician/mechanic would need to use a blueprint diagram for this if he is not thoroughly knowledgeable about the layouts . I am not sure if the seat problem is related to the voltage distribution setup but it is best to have that issue resolved first and see what happens next. What I have in mind makes the entire issue far complicated and I don't believe it has to do with your case for there are pressing problems in existence and would need to be resolved.

I hope you got your brake family issue resolved. If you did not, reset your wheel angle sensor and BAS.

There are certain services in a Merc that require a reset. There are also certain services that will require the part replaced to be hard-coded to that very car using the MB handtool. This is why certain parts should not be replaced but fixed. Either of the two conditions when omitted will cause the vehicle not to run right or not work at all; even worse, cause a chain-reaction or conjure other problems.

I honestly will recommend that you find a specialist that specialises a Mercedes Benz alone. If you can't find one (due to the "market" ), you can settle for a specialist that works on Merc's, BMW and Audi's. This is because the approach dealing with Mercedes gas vehicles is fundamentally different from other vehicles I have encounted. Everything has to be done right lest it doesn't work and the ECU will guarantee that you'll be returning to resolve the pending issues.

You'll also have to check the v-belt for wear (poly belt). This could be another culprit. In some cases, the alternator may not be bad but the backup fuse (which is a cheaper fix minus the diagnostic charges). If the voltage is higher than what is acceptable, problems will be reflected.


All the best.

elite: Is it possible to get the 4cyl c class that isn't a kompressor?

Yes!

I do have one piece of caution to hand over to you; avoid the lower 4 cylinder models. They are underpowered and you might not be impressed by the performance it offers when you have others in the car with you. So, 220 and up!

toba: is it then advisable for cars that their termostat had been removed to be restored for the cars to have their fans operate at a closed loop?

Why would you remove a thermostat?

cretin: about 70% of all cases of overheating are caused by bad thermostat/radiator.......the other cause is damaged relay.the avg mechanic is too lazy/incompetent to trouble shoot...so he connects the fan permanently to the battery.......a fan relay costs less than N800 naira depending on the car......if the relay is bad..the fan stops working.

70% is hyper estimating i.e. 7 out of 10. If a cooling issue is thermostat related, a significant amount of them wouldn't be overheating. Many thermostat brands fail in the cold state as a factor of safety.

Both cars are the same. Same engine and same transmission. Wheelbase is different. They all use the same parts.

Same with the Lexus. In some market, the Lexus is the Toyota. Lexus GS350 is Toyota Aristo. I think the Crown is the LS450. The Prado is what is GX. That's marketing for you. Same vehicle, one with three circles and another with an encircled L.

In the American market, the Avalon comes premium.

Ikenna351: Trac,

I don't think you understood Cretin. What we have here in the market is coolant, not antifreeze. The label on a bottle TOTAL coolant, that I use, states its pre-mixed (Mixture of water & anti-freeze). And the instruction on the bottle is not to mix it again with water. Now the percentage of the mixture is what I wouldnt know. Those that do 70:30 of water and coolant may not have faith that it was properly mixed. Otherwise, you do not need to mix it with water again, hence, the antifreeze will be so diluted that it wont do it work anymore. That's why i buy from reputable brand: TOTAL. To be sure to some extent that what they claim is the content is what it is.

Ikenna.

You are going to have to explain this to me because I have no clue to your presented point-of-view; that is: referring to the second and first-half of the third sentence.

To save me from a post in response, I will state what I know. I actually went to my storage and looked up the approved coolant for my cars and it was italicized "Antifreeze Coolant." I also found images online that I have attached to this post. I have never heard a dissociation between coolant and antifreeze. What I pointed out is that some think dumping more coolant, they'll get their system running cooler because of the word "coolant."

Premix and full formulate are two different states (as you stated). The one mixed with water is more expensive and you have 50% antifreeze in it for the same size as the 100% variant. Some are logically questionable for they state that you can add it to any coolant. Now, if you are stating that antifreeze has been premixed, then you are wrong.

The first image is approved by the listed manufacturers. In other words, Valvoline had submitted their formulae to the manufacturers and the manufacturers tested it against their standards and it met or exceeded the standards. This specification of antifreeze is also bullet-proof and it is not as expensive as Mercedes or the Audi coolant. If I am not wrong, the coolant for MB is Zerex G05 but the bottle is rebranded with a few alteration to the sheet specification (fluid formulate standard). There is only one sheet specification from the part catalogue (and that is sheet specification 325.0) for both tropical and non-tropical.

The second image is the water mixture of the first at half-and-half.

The third is recommended for the list of manufactured brands listed. It isn't approved but recommended.

One of the sad issues that I have realised on NL is that people think they are smarter than the heat-transfer engineers that set-up the vehicle's cooling design. They come up with their own modifications and veer wide from intended specifications. It is better for your cooling system to work overtime than to be of questionable integrity and mess the entire rings, cylinder walls and other areas of dependency.

Pastor Kun: Car care tips

Drive with care everyday
Being car considerate shouldn’t stop after the break-in. Drive with care every day and your car will reward you with longer intervals without repair.

•Do not race your car’s engine during start-up.This is a quick way to add years of wear to your engine, especially if it’s cold outside.
•Accelerate slowly when you begin your drive.The most wear to the engine and drive train occurs in the first ten to twenty minutes of operation.
•Warming the engine by letting it idle in the driveway is not a smart idea.The engine doesn’t operate at its peak temperature, resulting in incomplete fuel combustion, soot deposits on cylinder walls, oil contamination, and ultimately damaged components.
•Put less strain on your engine and automatic transmission by shifting to neutral at red lights. Otherwise, the engine is still working to push the car even while it’s stopped.
•Avoid driving at high speeds and accelerating quickly, especially when it’s very hot or very cold outside. Such driving behavior will result in more frequent repairs.
•Extend the life of your tires with careful driving. Observe posted speed limits. Avoid fast starts, stops, and turns. Avoid potholes and objects on the road. Don’t run over curbs or hit the tire against the curb when parking. And, of course, don’t burn rubber.
•When turning your steering wheel, don’t hold it in an extreme right or left position for more than a few seconds. Doing so can damage the power-steering pump.
•Consolidate your short driving trips. Most of the wear and tear — as well as the pollution your car generates — takes place in the first few minutes of driving. Doing several errands at once, during low traffic hours if possible, will keep your engine happier longer.

People don't abide by these. If manufacturers built their vehicles/products to the standards you stated, lots of recalls would be done, money wasted towards bad publicity-control and may never earn their customers back if they figure what went wrong about their perspective of what customers want.

Can you honestly tell me that you abide by most of what you've written . Only one of them is fully correct; and that's the first one. Point number 4 is just humourous (and that is plain wrong). Fully depressing the brakes disengages the clutch. Some vehicles have the ability to spin the rear tyres while the brake is fully depressed and the throttle is partially of fully depressed.

The wear your engine receives that makes the noticeable difference (90%) is when you start a cold car and not within the first 20 minutes. The ECU will not allow spirited driving till the engine has warmed up.

elite: Ok Mr Trac. Thanks for your response.
Which of the BMW, Audi or Volkswagen would u recommend for a first time european vehicle driver?

I don't like the BMW's, so you won't get anything from me concerning those brands.

If you are purchasing the Audi's, I will not recommend the American specifications. Reliability is questionable and it isn't uncommon to spend thousands in a single service job. The European brands are reliable. This includes the VW as well. The only American spec of the family that is close to the quality of the Europeans are the Toureg models. This explains why there are clashing remarks about the VW/Audi brands in terms of reliability.

cretin: @ trac.i meant 70% coolant...30% water.the avg radiator is 4liters n the average nigerian wudnt want to fill his radiator with 4 liters of coolant @400 naira per 0.5l of coolant.when i changed my radiator..i drove it with 100% water for sometime before i flushed it and made it 30/70. 30 being coolant!....just to prevent/reduce rust.

You are still wrong. However the two last sentences are proper in judgement.

The radiator is nothing but a heat exchanger. It isn't the entire portal. The engine has jackets throughout the block to provide the fluid flow for equilibrium and heat transfer.

The 70% coolant and 30% water is without understanding. Partly, I would suggest the misunderstanding would be from the name issued to the antifreeze: coolant. In reality, coolant never reduces temperature in your engine. What the coolant does is to carry the heat from the block (especially the inner) to the exchanger. In Heat Transfer, nothing ever cools; you only get an equilibrium. So, ice in warm water results to an equilibrium - or in layman's terms, a fine balance between the two. Then you can say it is cold. The water in the mixture bring about the equilibrium. This is done to prevent the antifreeze from overheating and water from overheating. Antifreeze does overheat, water evaporates also. The marriage keeps the job done.

This is the harmony. The antifreeze carries and transports the heat; water creates to the degree the state of equilibrium (puts the temperature in check and not out of control) as it is brought to the exchanger and the fan dissipates the heat to the atmosphere. It is at this point the temperature drops drastically - when the solution has gotten to where air and the cycle starts again.

With the scientific explanation details, you do have an idea how the "open-system" works. How does 70%-antifreeze-30%-water work in a tropical region? It won't take long before you reduce the lifecyle of your head gasket and risk a head warp. As a matter of fact, the vehicle will overheat. I had a friend bring to my attention a few years back that his car was overheating (running very hot) on the freeway and the journey was almost 4 hours. Upon investigation, his fluid was deep green and I made it clear to him. During the winter, the 70% proportion is ideal because it is very cold plus the vehicle's heater would constantly be on.

30% antifreeze and 70% water is logical but in my honest opinion, you will have to do the flush more frequent than the 40%/60%, 45%/55% or 50%/50% ratio. It is too extreme for my understanding because the water pump needs lubrication from the antifreeze also and I believe there are certain regions that warrant that.

If I am not wrong, you need at almost two gallons of antifreeze. I really don't understand the cost-savings that you are relating to. You don't get the cooling right, your oil looses its integrity faster (because it is enveloping more heat than designed) and you get bad gas mileage. The two-gallons is cheaper in the overall long-run.

cretin: ur radiator isnt cooling properly.....do u hv coolant in it or water?.......pls flush the radiator and fill with coolant 70/30 or buy a new double cell radiator and replace ur existing radiator...it probablly is clogged or is old and has been patched in the past thus reducing the available cooling area

70% coolant will cause the vehicle to overheat. Coolant does not cool the engine; it also has no cooling properties. You don't live in the Scandinavian regions or cold climate regions to give this type of advice. The type of coolant also matters (especially for Audi's). It is worse when the engine is turbo-charged.

elviszzz: thanks Cretin,i dont have coolant in it nor water,i will have it flushed then if d problem persists den wld replace with a new one.

At this point, you can be rest assured that your engine is toast.

Lexusgs430: @ Trac been trying to track you for almost a fortnight. Need your expert input on particular mercedes Benz models that seems to be tempting me.
(1) mercedes sclass coupe 500 (97)
(2) mercedes sclass coupe 600 (97)

These cars have always tickled my fancy and I am contemplating getting either, which would you advise considering lagos roads, parts and repairs?
Thanks in anticipation

You are lucky I did not delete the numbers.

https://www.nairaland.com/520025/mercedes-benz-thread/10#8577704

The two numbers are there and I know him as Engineer J or just call him Jay. Tell him a Mobil staff recommended him and he will understand what's up. He is very strict - keep that in mind; it will explain many things.

Lexusgs430: @ Trac been trying to track you for almost a fortnight. Need your expert input on particular mercedes Benz models that seems to be tempting me.
(1) mercedes sclass coupe 500 (97)
(2) mercedes sclass coupe 600 (97)

These cars have always tickled my fancy and I am contemplating getting either, which would you advise considering lagos roads, parts and repairs?
Thanks in anticipation

How do you do?!

The S600 (140) is what made me a genuine Mercedes enthusiast (at the time) and I studied Mercedes and their approach to engineering and standards. Their philosophy fit my personal standards, sadly today they don't stand my their former integrity. I love the post-war Benzes and not too impressed with the contemporary ones.

You have picked two cars with very high attention to engineering detail but two different mannerisms. I am not really into the coupes but if you want to travel S-Class, the 600 is the way to go. The 6L was actually for the S Class. The 5L in my opinion were mostly suited for the E's and were stroked and rearranged for the S models. The 600 is a true keeper and it is also rare to find. It will be with you for many more years. There aren't much cars in this world today with that amount of refinement and quality. Never opt for a '99 S Class if you find one.

You are dealing with a heavy car. This will be the area of concentration we will focus on and I will try my best to list all that I can for you. I will recommend that you do a pre-purchase inspection (PPI) and pay "paranoid" attention to the suspension itself (assuming all other factors are normal). In some cases, you need not be paranoid about the inspection because you'd have drawn your conclusions about it. If unacceptable, deduct as you negotiate or walk away. It's not worth paying premium for something out of shape because you are still going to fix it.

Note: If any of the Merc's have been neglected (maintenance deferred), walk away from it. If it's been flooded, forget it. It affects your wallet and the vehicle will never get any better but worse as time progresses. Those that tell you otherwise lack understanding or have an agenda. Try soaking a system board (circuit board) in water; how do you salvage that?!

Firstly, it's german - in other words, you will have rubbers aging and rottening (breaking off). Though not much mentally, it is a pain replacing every single rubber (mounts, vacuum lines, etc). Rubbers visually might appear good but indeed it is worn out.

The main part: The best approach is to shave off cost from the total price of the vehicle if the suspension is really not at par. Suspension as most of the components that keep the vehicle as intended. This is also age-related and it is not ok to own a Mercedes with bad or worn out suspension components. Shaving off the total cost of the vehicle will help you rebuild your suspension. The V12 is also very nose-heavy and you almost overlook this. This was much of a concern for the S models were originally fitted with V rated tyres and during the course of the vehicle's production, it was later downgraded to H rated compounds to reduced wear rates.

* Engine Mounts
* Springs (you can leave the springs as a priority but the dampers should be replaced and the sway bars for acceptable roll-stiffness. The springs are dampers are isolated and can be done at a later time).
* 4 sets of dampers (shock absorber). Bilstein HD (Heavy Duty) is what you will need. You won't have to replace it again because it is lifetime.
* Strut Mounts
* Subframe mounts - this carries the bulk of the difference between an old Benz or a new one. The difference is extremely clear.
* Upper Control Arms
* Sway bar bushings (get the two outer and the two inner) - vehicle should drive in a straight line without steering input
* Rear End Sway Links
* Trailing Arm Bushings - you will have to replace this. If bad, the rear of the vehicle will begin to steer and it is extremely noticeable at freeway speeds and would require counter-steering to keep yourself in a straight line.
* Ball Joints
* Idler Arms
* Tie Rods
* Steering damper
* Sway Bars

It might appear intimidating but all these would keep the Benz as new as it can be for the age. If all these were taken care of, nobody would sell that Benz at book value.

Both engines are good and as far as I am concerned, no Achilles Heels. The 119 (V8) is my favorite V8 engine and the 156 follows it. Since you are in Lagos, two bottles of Techron is recommended. A full bottle in half a tank or mid-way between a quarter and half a tank. The second bottle should be fed through the fuel pressure regulator vacuum line. From my experience, it is best done when driven for a while and the engine is at operating temperature. I usually use a spray nozzle and squirt and it goes directly through the lines to the throttle body then everywhere else it should be. It sits for 10 minutes or so and start to purge the carbon. It could also be done on a cold or warm engine but the best result that I've gotten is when the engine has been driven for a period and the process is done. This is necessary for the EGR valve from time to time as it gets clogged with carbon over time due to its long and angular orifice.

Both cars are good. I will never take the V8 over a V12.

You've gotten a project if you decide to keep your vehicle according to specs.

In terms of parts, to keep it running as long as possible and predictable, you are best to use Genuine OEM parts. It is understandable to make a compromise on small parts that can be easily replaced but not very wise when you have to do a major repair and questionable unpredictable parts are used. This is because it is expensive and the likelihood of redoing the repair is very high.


Who to recommend to repair? I use to know a person back in the 90's and i haven't spoken to him since then. He is the only Nigerian that I know that worked to specs and was very strict about it. He worked on German cars. I got his number last year but I don't have it anymore. I posted it on one of my posts and I am not sure if I deleted it. His alias is Engr. J and the post is on the Mercedes Thread. The nairalanders might be able to give it to you (if they have it). He is quite expensive but the jobs are thorough and the parts are genuine.



As you already know, looking for a Benz to purchase is half the fun. It isn't easy but that makes it fun.


Happy Benzing!

elite: You seem to know benz very well.
Well, can u recommend a ride that will perform well on the highways because I do more of travelling. Currently considering 2005 camry, 2005 eod v6 and the c320 2003 model. Wats ur take on these machines asper performance, reliability, fuel consumption, maintenance and stability on the highway?

Mercedes in general are good for high-speed and long distance journeys.

I cannot really speak much for the Camry. I cannot say anything about the Honda because I am not familiar with the brand. With the Mercedes, my best advice would be to avoid the very model you are inquiring. On the other hand, if you decide to go with the model, avoid the V6 engine. Mercedes' cost savings led to the sectioning of the V8 to give a V6 with a 30-degree splay-angle. Besides it not as smooth as the engine that left it, its silent shaft (balance-shaft) can barely even out the vibrations. So, it is prone to silent shaft failure and it is a very expensive repair because it rips right through the engine. This is the Achilles heels for that engine. It doesn't matter if it is on the M's, E's, S's or G's. It is recently a dedicated V6 has been made for the C Class. This leaves you with the 4's or the V8's. Avoid the supercharged engines (except you have a good mechanic). The turbine is also a wear item and it is expensive in replacement.

Since this may be your first Mercedes, my best recommendation would be the model before or the model after. The model before is robust in its own way, though not free from its own issues. Though all are not as refined as a true Mercedes, the 280 is the smoothest in the normal series. I do not know much about the 2007 C Class (except the AMG) because I never developed interest in it; however, what I am certain is that the quality (most of it) had returned to that very model. It could still be better but it is many levels higher than the 2005 you are looking into and it is very refined in ride comfort.

If you ever consider the E-Class (210), you either get the straight 6 or the V8. If you opt for the later model, avoid the 2003 - 2006 and avoid the V6's. It's got issues and it is a lot; one of which is the brakes that has a number of times it can be actuated. The recall ends in 2014 and you will be on your own. It'll also be best to get the steel-spring suspension as opposed to the air-suspension. The air-suspensions are unpredictable and they could fail at any time and very expensive to replace.

If your choice is a Mercedes, keep the Toyota for a while as your dependability on your Mercedes grows. This way, you can have a feel of the vehicles personality in terms of maintenance.

yungboss: okay, thats highlights a few questions about these engines...tho my line of engineering deals with electricals i'm sure i'm not out of place here.
Talking about I-6, i have observed that most bmws especially the 3series, perform better than most cars of the same power/torque number. Sometimes i think bmw scaled down its numbers for performance against what they actually are. From experience, i ran against a 3.0 avalon and i caught up comfortably at 118mph. My car's got 148hp against the avalon's 220hp...
The power surge from 140 to 180km/h was unbelievable, for a 2.0l I-6 engine...is there anywhere in Nigeria to dyno (observe the torque curve) cars to measure actual power/torque of a vehicle?

You were at an advantage on certain aspects; lightness and better aerodynamics. BMW's philosophy is also efficient dynamics. If I am not mistaken, BMW has the world's most advanced variable timing and coupling it with top-end performance, the Avalon would have been quick of the line but would not maintain the lead as it continued (due to its lack of top-end performance). The Avalon also is not tuned for performance - in other words, it isn't properly quick. It might also weigh in excess of 3800 pounds or more.

yungboss: Nice one trac, nice one. Just seeing ur post. But from my little knowlege i though that the I-6 engines have no 'net' shaking force when they are rotating but not FIRING. Once firing i.e.running, all internal combustion engines have some shaking force and harmonics acting to some degree, for instance, torsional motion.

You are right on it but it goes way more than that.

Let's talk about how you feel behind the wheel of these engines. The v6 cannot be torquey or deliver torque as an inline of the same numbers. The main culprit is balance-shaft and the second-order vibration left to be suppressed by the engine mounts, so you have parasitic losses and it is greater the higher the rev/min, thus defeating purpose of available power to the driver. This is not to say power would is not produced but the gains would be a whole case different if it weren't for the nature of configuration. So, what is done is to have the power rearranged (it's an engineering term) to the lower end of the tach and this is where people are impressed. So, it isn't a high-revving-high-output engine. So, off the line, it'll take off but it won't maintain it.

The inline is another matter. This is from personal experience, the power is progressive and exponential. Once you get into the power band, there is a surge and it keeps going. The sound feedback you get from the engine is enthusiastically rewarding. There isn't much torque at the lower band of the tach because that is just the very nature of the engine. You will have to rev it to conjure the power and torque and using all the tach is pleasure. Power is designed for top-end performance, so off the line may not be that impressive but there are serious gains for the rest of the mile in a race.

I am not a fan of BMW's and I don't like them because I can read through one and explain in design what they are. But the very core of BMW's is what I give great honour to: the inline sixes. BMW is a company that only makes engines - the other aspects aren't truly their core. The inline 6 designation that was in the M3's (especially the CSL) was one of a particular kind. Great performance at high rpm but that detail to optimisation got to its final limit. BMW stated gains couldn't be gotten of the 3L displacement within the inline and still maintain the high revving potentials, hence the switch to the v8. This configuration does not suffer from the secondary-order vibrations the v6's have and it is also an acceptable compromise to the straight 8s. It doesn't perform like a straight 8 or identical numbers but the variations can be overlooked. You will never find a military tank with a v6. They are all inline six' with power in excess of 1000 and higher.

yungboss: Trac you facts have alot of rough edges to them...i travelled last year in an 8-yr old merc c320 v6 and there was nothing like vibration you mentioned, like ik said what's the function of the balance shafts? So you mean to say all v6 engines are a flaw? Interesting.
At high speed, aerodynamics come into play i agree. But power matters to a great extent
Lets look at a hypothetical case, a toyota celica rated at say, 170hp and a 5.7l toyota tundra rated at 450hp (hypo numbers), at 160km/h which do you think will have more comfort going down, based on your statement that hp doesn't really matter at top speed...which is more aerodynamic? Idk...

All v6's are flawed designs.

I am quite acquainted with the v6 you are talking about. Actually, it's a v8 that has been sectioned. What MB did was to use special engine mounts to suppress the secondary order vibrations and the balance-shaft barely cancel out the vibrations. The fact you cannot feel anything doesn't mean it was flawlessly designed. The engine you are referring to is the 112 motor. It wouldn't be a sale-potential if you could feel the flaws at the point of sale. This engine is louder than its predecessor and unrefined as well (bad harmonics within certain rpm bands).

Here comes the interesting part. I never said horsepower doesn't matter at top speed. You are referring to approximately 100-110mph, right?! Aerodynamics isn't noticeably coming into play that you will need your reserved power to the overwhelming drag. This is still nothing to the chassis and people drive at those speeds everyday. At 160mph+/260kph+, you'll begin to feel the air push down your vehicle as you press-on. This you'd notice as your vehicle is pressed downwards on its suspension. You also might not be able to see clearly through your windshield. Stopping the car is another matter and the headache you might have later (depending on how long you drove at those speeds). The higher you go, you'll need power. I am not referring to the Tundra or anything with that magnificent surface area. To be quite frank with you, the Tundra can't reach those speeds because it isn't aerodynamically designed for such feats. The idea of sport cars being streamlined to reduce surface area is to be able to cut through the air with little resistance and to also have the tyres planted. It is recently the Lotus crossed over to the 200+hp territory. They are quick, can dial into corners tighter, brake later and take-off earlier, 4 cylinders so less reciprocation masses and they stumped with the big dogs and you can guess the rest. The same goes for the Porsches; aerodynamics and acceleration were the key principles. The example of the Porsche 356 is a perfect example. Power isn't everything.

Ikenna351: Trac, for the first time, I disagree with you on your theory on V6.

Am not here to talk about the I6 or dispute the fact that is good. Am not a theorist or an idealist, but a realist. I dont talk about what i dont know of or have not used. I havent driven or used an I6, So i cant comment on what i dont know. But i have heard how sweet an I6 could sound when on high rev. A school of thought argues that I6 performs better, while another school of thought will swear by V6 performance. Like I said, am not a theorist. But I have seen BMW I6 in action & could say they are damn machines!

Now to your theory on the V6. Its wrong for you to say all V6 are flawed engines. I dont know the V6s you have used that made you conclude so. I have two PRVs. Guess what? Each are 90 degrees V6s, not 60 degrees. I know where you are going with the 90 degrees: the imbalance. But guess what again? My two PRVs have Balance shaft on each of their right cylinder banks. The first generation PRV (90 degrees) suffered the mechanical imbalance because it was an odd-fire engine, hence the vibrations. But then the second generation PRV that the Renault 25 introduced, was an even-fire 90 degree V6. The balancer shaft in the even-fire PRV made it one of the smoothest & sweetest running V6 ever produced in that era, hence the elimination of engine vibration. The higher you rev the engine, the smoother & sweeter it sounds. Hence, the V6 songs!

I was driving to Enugu from my hometown, Awkuzu, on Onitsha-Enugu expressway with my brother last January, with my 605 V6 5sp manual. At a point, he asked me " how come the car is so soundless at the speed I was doing (which i dont want to mention here), as if there is no engine in the engine bay?" He was impressed. At that speed I was doing, he couldnt believe there was no vibration of any form, no engine sound heard (which we would have been hearing harsh engine sound with most I4) & the car was tearing the wind effortlessly. Yes, I could say effortlessly because I was the one driving. I knew how light i depressed the throttle pedal, which I was barely accelerating, yet the car was flying, you could say that. Since that day, he was converted, a V6 believer! The other day, he called me & was so excited that he saw a Peugeot 406 V6 for sale where he stays. But sadly, didnt have the financial strength to take the car home, make it his. A truely converted V6 fellow! I felt sad too.

Should we talk about my RWD Peugeot 505 V6 5 speed manual? Lets not even go there. Test-drive one & your theory will change, if you can still find one, anyway. I believe a lot of 60 degree V6 owners out there will have one or two things they will say too about theirs, how difficult it is for them to leave the V6 world because of the performances of the V6s they own or have owned. Like I said, am a realist, not an idealist.

Ikenna.

It's not a theory, it's tribology. I did not make it up and I could go deeper but this thread will head elsewhere from it's intended focus but I will keep it in layman's.

All v6's are flawed. It isn't an opinion but the nature of the configuration. The balance shaft is used to balance-out the rocking couples but this only cancels the first order vibrations. What is worse about the v6's is that the second-order vibrations are not eliminated because of the cost to research and engineer would out-cost the vehicle price limits, so the use of the engine mount is used. The second-order vibrations can be resolved but I am only aware of one approach and I can only explain it in details using equations derived from the forces of the crank assembly and make some amplifications and then, might have to dig up my notes to refresh myself.

To term a spade a spade and use black/white logic, the only v6's that are not flawed are the horizontally-opposed or boxer configurations. Those engines are perfectly smooth and need no balance-shaft. They are 180 degrees v6's. Some call them H's but they are v6's (if you want to be technical about it).


The 90 degrees is worst of all the configurations; the crank is thrown at [(30+90)+(30+90+...n], thus there are certain points in the cycle where you have dead spots (no power delivered). 720 by 120 is 6 and this is the v6 configuration at its optimum. When you have 720 by 90 (i.e. 720/90)and then, your expected conclusion is 6, you are certain some explanations should be ready to justify the expectation. So, this is simple arithmetic for the less-than-180-degrees v configuration. In layman's terms, to get this engine configuration to acceptable standards, certain measures are taken into effect that enables the inherent deficiencies to be masked. The inherent problem to this configuration is never eliminated. It's only patched. The results are clear in the long-run.

People that are certain that a v6 is better than a straight 6 know nothing about engine performances. Cruising from one end of Lagos is not a method to benchmark. You can only make judgements when you have aggressively driven it on a race track.

I am in no way stating that the 605 v6 is a bad vehicle but it offers no performance. The same with the Ford Mustang and some others in the same calibre. You have BMW's in your area. Drive a model that has a high-turbulent flow compression engine in it. That is a car with an acceptable level of performance (not the best); not the best example for sure but a taste of what performance is. If you can get hold of a Subaru, the 2.5L 4 Cyl or the 6 cylinder, the imprints it will leave on you will be remarkable. -- and I'm referring to the Impreza. The 2.5L will outperform all the vehicles you have mentioned and would out-smooth it as well.

The realistic measure would be to look at graphs that plots the performance curves and that would resolve any disputes.

jameau: @Trac, great post. Really appreciate it. I will definitely get another mech as suggested. Perhaps you can also suggest one so that i take a sample of opinions from them?

@ Jameau

I would love to assist but I don't know anyone that can help you. I use to know a person in the 90's but I don't have his information. Nairalanders would be able to help you on that. I'd recommend you go to a service shop where German or European cars are serviced; not the service shop where any vehicle is being serviced. The mindset is different, certain precautions and specifications are to be taken/done when working on German cars. This way, you don't have remedial services (especially when it is at your expense).

yungboss: sorry bro, your statement is grossly misleading. That merc is 'somwhere' as dependable as a toyota. Just spend a little more on maintenance thats all. Overall its got better ride quality than a toyota... My uncle uses the 2003 C320 and a BMW e39 528i since 2007 or 2008. i saw him recently and we got talking , i asked him how his car was,he had nothing but praise for it 2gether with the bmw...the only major concern 4me is the wire harness...understand when it needs a complete wire overhaul and fix it when its time, you'l be very fine with it.

The Mercedes in question is no where as dependable as the Toyota within the original post.

In addition to what I said, Mercedes Benzes (21st century) is no where as dependable as a Toyota. This is not the 20th century. No argument or point-of-view can prove otherwise. If you're in doubt, start with the definition of the word "dependablity" and ask those that own them.

elite: dDfdc

I'm afraid ur post makes no sense to me!

You wouldn't know till you own one. The post-war Mercedes standards are the reputations you have familiarised yourself with and they were designed with an approach of durability with no expense spared. Mercedes-ownership is not the same as Toyota-ownership. You can drive a Toyota for 10 years without having to replace a part (except wear items). This isn't so with the Mercedes. This is the "league" I was referring to. If you aren't the kind to do a lot preventative maintenances and use genuine parts and follow specifications strictly, your ownership experience will not be as enthusiastic as envisioned.