₦airaland Forum

yemmy_ma: awww, apologies for my last comment. Maybe i should have included 'pun intended'. If only you knew me a bit more.

I thought you were serious.

AjanleKoko: I doubt students of these days in Nigeria even know their curriculum, frankly speaking.
I went to school in the 90s, studied electrical engineering. Some of the engineering management courses we took, from second through final year were as follows:

Control Engineering Theory and Systems is a part of electrical engineering anyways, not engineering management. My masters thesis was in the control systems domain.

- Law for Engineering Practice
- Linear Programming & Optimization
- Finance for Engineers
- Principles of Maintenance Engineering
- Engineers in Society

and a bunch of other stuff. Seven or eight different courses, at least 3 credits per semester.

Same in the United States and worst of all, in the workplace. There are colleagues that can't get an algebraic expression right; let alone, detail their complex design in clear technical documentation. -- and I am not trying to be funny. Hand-calculating engineering problems and phenomenons is just not their strength: thinking out of the box is uncomfortable or doesn't exist. It's all left to the computational software or templates. In more case than none, the work gets done till something goes wrong and they can't help themselves or retrace their procedures and tame/correct their errors. What annoys me is that there are people who deserve the positions but lack the means to attain it.

yungboss: thanx trac for enlightening me, this is an area in which i have never really invested much attention.
As it stands now, what do you advice i do...thought i made this post since, the car has overheated not because of coolant issues but because a mechanic i gave the car to for service didn't properly close the radiator. I bled the radiator using water...so i'm asking...what should i do now?

This is a quick-fix: drain what you have installed as much as you can. You will need about two or three kegs of antifreeze. Use a keg for a 50/50 mixture and a quarter of the second as a 50/50 mixture. Then pour about a half-a-keg into your chamber. If it isn't full, then add water to top it off and let it idle with engine running to let the air out as the water pump belches the air out. Have your heater running at maximum while you rinse as water flows in.

Note I: I am assuming you have a 9 litre capacity engine.
Note II: You cannot get all the water out from the inner block of the engine, hence the one-and-a-quarter 50/50 mixture half of plain antifreeze to get a near-50/50. I've used this method and would again.

A thorough job would be to have a cooling system flush with at a shop.

Your ratio should always be 50/50 antifreeze to water.

AjanleKoko: Most engineering programs in Nigeria incorporate courses that cover the basic fundamentals of engineering management into their curriculum. Even at undergraduate level. Control and automation engineering is a fundamental part of mechanical and electrical engineering, at undergrad level.

I understand that and that should be everywhere where mechanical and electrical is taught as a discipline. The appropriate word is engineering management not business admin. I was curious about the ratio of engineering management to core engineering. To be quite frank, my initial question was asked because I thought Systems Engineering had to do with the telecommunications industry because a friend of mine that studied so in college gave me that impression.

Use what the manufacturer specified. Using a heavier oil than what is specified will damage your engine especially the rear main seals. Also, your engine runs hotter and your top-end will be poorly lubricated. There are also tighter crevices that the oil wouldn't be able to flow through plus your oil pump is over-worked and you will also have higher than abnormal engine-oil pressure because of the higher volume-pressure flow due to the heavier oil density. Engine will go through reciprocating drag, i.e. resistance that was never factored in the original design. In some vehicles, you can as well be expecting sludge in the longrun.

cretin: wow, thanks
just a quick one,

is there any empirical or documented evidence that shows that synthetics give better mpg?, if yes is it significant?

In layman's terms, synthetic oil is not oil but formulated "whatever" that was done in the lab. It is lighter and has less friction to surface-to-surface contact than oil derived from crude plus it provides higher stability in extreme heat. Scratch the heat out for the main answer to your question. With lower resistance to surface-to-surface contact, reciprocating parts and moving mechanics function with a lot less frictional resistance, thus using less work to get work done. Therefore, you have less parasitic losses in the drive train.

Synthetic doesn't add horsepower as Royal Purple or people claim. It is lighter and outperforms the crude alternative in the extremes as well as regular. Does it clean your engine? The blunt answer is NO. It's got some cleaning reagents but that's all about it. Regular oils too have the same kind of reagents.

llade: I made a post about my engine oil light n d fact dat I heard a rattling noise while driving. D thing is my mechanic has diagonised sludge in d engine, n said d cranshaft was cut by one metal only in d 1999 camry v6 engine. The tin is besides changin d oil pump filter n cleaning d sludge, he said he cud give d cranshaft to a good repairer to fix it before he reassembles evrything. Dis option he gave me rather dan buyin a new engine since d oil pump, rings, valves and engine block are ok. House pls shud I take d option of dese repairs as he has made an estimate of less dan 40k instead of buying a new engine.

No merits: forget that route. There is a lot to the manufacturing of a crankshaft and it is to several thousandth to tolerance plus a fair knowledge of "instrumentation" is needed to even out the centripetal forces. Any mistake in the thousandth will give an undesired outcome (short/long-run). Designing a crankshaft has a lot of discipline to it and it must be right. The manufacturing method is by cooling the molten metal in a cast, so there are no welds or seams. You cannot repair it (at least to the cost you are anticipating) and then replant it and expect it to work without the adequate pre-production phases. A couple of thousandths to a hairline crack is sufficient to cause a catastrophic engine failure due to heat and forces exerted on the crank per revolution. I hope I have conveyed something over.

Get a new engine instead. I wouldn't trust whosoever that anticipates rebuilding the engine. The unknowns of the new engine far out-depends what you plan to rebuild. Having your car on your mind and your mind on your car is not "cute." There are other things in life than to worry about a car and worse of all, depleting the bank account. Do an engine transplant, synchronise the engine with the transmission and you are good to go; plus is a lot cheaper in the immediate-run and the long-run: you only worry about wear-and-tear. Toyota's are prone to sludge. It is just how the engines are designed. You do a minor oil change and a major oil change.

AjanleKoko: Go here for the Unilag Systems engineering handbook.

Thanks! It is the same manufacturing (Industrial Engineering) curriculum but with less business integration and leans more on automation, shop management and control-systems. -- pretty focused curriculum.

Siena: The Toyota Camry is also sold in the United States, Saudia Arabia, Australia, as well as other really hot countries. In Arizona, temps often exceed that of Nigeria, the same goes for parts of Australia. The overheating issues in Nigeria are more due to the fact lots of users run their cooling systems with 100% plain water, no coolant added. A bad move. Water has a lower boiling point than a water / coolant mix.

Also, wrong spark plug grades, fuel grades will make an engine run hotter. Some mechanics in Nigeria still go by one grade of spark plug fits all cars, which is not true. Just because a spark plug has the same thread, seat and reach of another does not mean they're the same.

This is right on the money. Many parts of America are hotter than Nigeria.

Antifreeze and coolant is the same thing; different names but it is the same thing.

https://www.nairaland.com/983235/car-overheatssomeone

One of the biggest jokes this year.

yungboss: exactly wat came to my mind when i saw this post, antifreeze is not applicable in Nigeria cos we are in an arid zone, for my car i use like 80% water and 20% coolant,i dont know if this makes sense but God has been helping me. The engine has never overheated and runs well. Bmw e36 I6. My 5kobo take. Let hear from better enlighten pips

Yea, you are right -- does not make sense. Antifreeze is not applicable in Nigeria: How?

Your engine also is not running well according to design. The problems are in the longrun and not the short-course. To save a reply-post, I will explain. The upper and lower block are of two different materials and composites and administer heat differently. Sure enough, the expansion will be different when it comes to heat. What would your concerns be? The gasket (head) and your bolts. The bolts are stretch bolts to accommodate the uneven expansion of both metals and contract when cool. With the way you have set things up, the gasket will be flatten prematurely and your bolts might go through plasticity. This is how the straight-engines are packages and designed to function. 80-20 is plain wrong and you can't justify such formulation with the appropriate logic. You are also investing for a warped head (which might not be able to be corrected depending on how bad due to "clearance" thickness). The water pump is also on its way out because it needs the antifreeze for lubrication and in a false sense, a thermal boundary layer for the bearings and coatings. This function cannot be achieved via water.

Use only the approved coolant by the manufacturer. The coolant have "sheet" descriptions and are engineered to spec with adequate Reynolds related to Heat Transfer and other properties. In other words, the fluid itself has been engineered to formulation. Never mix coolants.

lamba lamb: Thanks a lot sir, I really appreciate the information above.....I will try my best to follow it up.

You are welcome.

All the best:

AjanleKoko: It's a clone of the UI industrial engineering program.
Or was it something else you were asking?

You've answered it but a bit shallow. What concentration is it? Is it biased towards control-systems, robotics, machineries?

Your outlook to life is wrong, therefore you've made judgements at the expense of a fair oversight/investigation. In addition tot he first statement, if it is your destiny, then you are in trouble if you miss it because you will not recognise your helpers. Don't get me wrong, it may/mayn't be your path but at least since it crossed your awareness and in the integrity of your own person, make full conclusions. If you commence on a path and there are no oppositions, it is because it is leading you nowhere.

-- reason for the first paragraph? You had belittled yourself when in actuality it isn't the way you routed your conclusions. Also, in correction, you cannot do all. You will also pick a concentration by junior or rising junior (3rd year) and your focus begins from there. When you get your degree, it doesn't mean that is your focus. School only prepares you for what the real work is. You learn just the fundamentals in school; the courses you pass and the higher you acquire only grants you the ability to understand and translate to use the proprietary information a company/corporation would administer to you. Your specialisation would be when you start working. The medical field is wide with a lot of disciplined specialisations. Do you do all and then fear that you might become discombobulated and end up with nothing? Absolutely not! Howbeit the same with "manufacturing." You are only getting an education and not a career; in other words, a means to an end. I'm not saying manufacturing is what you must do but never to underestimate yourself.

Never look at something and say it is too much for you or it is too big and complicated. If it is a mountain, begin from a point and bore-through till you've overcomed it.

In summary, you learn the bare fundamentals in school. The subsidiary knowledge will be imparted to you by the company you begin you career with. Then you nurture your career and every two-to-three years, you venture into different descriptions (opportunities within your specialty). The overall reflection is what the corporations term as experience.

AjanleKoko: UI - Industrial Engineering
Unilag - Systems Engineering
UNIBEN - Production Engineering

I'm not aware of the FUTA program.

AjanleKoko: Systems Engineering exists in Unilag at undergrad level.

What is Systems Engineering?

yemmy_ma: Thanks for clearing the air. I know U.I has a program called Production Engineering, FUTA runs Industrial Management. Maybe you can explain better the questions asked by Ihedinobi. Thanks

Industrial Management will focus more on the financial/managerial/safety/time motion studies at the moderate expense of the engineering aspect. In other words, less rigorous engineering to favour the aforementioned "variables." IE is nothing but a traded-off Mechanical, Electrical and Business Administration fused to make a curriculum suited for an allocated time-frame (4 years). The trade-off of Mechanical and Electrical is more to favour the Business aspect in Industrial Management.


It is very wide subject to talk about and a post cannot explain in totality a mere summary of what it is as one can with Mechanical Engineering. The opportunities are wide and many. Some colleges had it together with their Mechanical Engineering curriculum but it took 6 years to complete and very expensive for the institutions to run, so it was split into two. Your concentration will also matter and prepare you for the field you will professionalise in. I'd recommend this if you decide to pursue this - never skimp on CAD/CAE/CAM (even if you might never use them). For the electrical aspect, be able to digitally simulate digital circuits before implementations. Multisims is the only tool I know about. Your mind will be broadened for these are professional tools. Getting acquainted with the simulating environment is easier said than thought.

Ihedinobi: Please could you name a couple or so of Nigerian unis that do the Manufacturing Engineering? Are you a professional in the field? I'd like to ask you a few q's if you are.

All the major corporations in Nigeria have them. This is particularly true for the Oil & Gas sector; this is from the decentralised and employee caring Shell to the cold Exxon and Schlumberger.

To clear certain things for the sake of clarity, I will mention some reflections of the Industrial Engineering titles:
- Operations Engineer
- Manufacturing Engineer
- Safety (Ergonomics) Engineer
- Financial Engineer
- Process and Statistical Engineer (Process is not to be confused with the Chemical Engineering derived Process Engineer)
- Production Engineer (not truly the same as a Product Engineer)

-- and many more depending on the specialisation of function. So, tagging it as Industrial Engineering is narrowing it. The name varies geographically. I met a Nigerian years ago and I was explaining to him product lifecycle and the use of computer aided engineering and manufacturing. He told me that it is known in Nigeria as Manufacturing Engineering (which I believe is the global title to the sector for the name oversees the other derivatives).

yemmy_ma: Well, its not so popular in Nigeria, but of course those enthustiastic engineers in Nigeria are interested in the mainstream engineering like the mech, chemical, eletrical and not forgetting petroleum etc. I am not necessarily an industrial engineer but i could relate my field to it.

So are you a professional or student and whats your specialization in Industrial Engineering?

This is because it is called something else. It is called Manufacturing Engineering and it is very much in use in Nigeria. The oil companies have them and without them, the other engineering branches cannot really function. This is because they interface with the people/client/market and feedback the information to the other engineering sectors while "they" themselves are part of the sectors within the cycle. They are the highest paid of all the other sectors too. This position also has no cap limit as Mech or Elect etc engineers have in their careers. The opportunities are broader as you move up the ladder in your career.

No, it may favour you in the short-term but it wouldn't in the long-run unless restitution is done (owning up). You can always tell who a person is by what the person says. If you are knowledgeable and fit the job, you will be considered. If you have the potentials to be perfect for the job but hasn't been exploited due to the fact that you lack the experience, a right thinking HR and the interviewing agent will spot it and it is left to your discretion. I don't believe you ever want to work in a place where you are not trusted (if the truth is eventually discovered - even if you are good). Peradventure, if inter-office sees it as nothing wrong, then you have bigger problems to worry about later because some day, they might turn on you (e.g. filtering employees).

Yes you can! You will have to apply the way you understand analytically to the fields you want to specialise in. It would not be "out-of-the-box" straight fit-in, so to tackle this problem, you will have to take some professional certifications and then improve on it with your intellect achieved from your BSc. For instance, I will be helping a friend of mine with a Math degree to transition into the Oil & Gas sector in a few months. In my friends case, starting up will be as a designer and time goes by, when the rudiments have been understood and mastered, an engineering position can be applied for. This is after certain certifications have been taken and the appropriate professional experience has been acquired and credibility earned.

The telecommunication industry is a lot easier, though there will be a lot to get acquainted with as you rise. The Oil & Gas industry is very liberal about their trainings than any other industry I know. You will learn on the job too as you work your way up.

I don't know how people reflect on degrees in terms of certain job descriptions in the region you live in. An employee referral will do you much help.


All the best!

It is time for an overhaul. The band is worn-out and sooner or later, you will break the piston and have no reverse.

It is a service that requires to be meticulous. You have three options:

- Ditch the car and get another
- Have it overhauled to spec (there is only one way to do this and it is the right way. Anything else will either fail or not run right)
- Replace the transmission (this is a costly but short term solution)

I don't know the layout of the vehicle in question but if it is like the vehicles I am accustomed to, while the transmission is down, you might as well change the engine rear-main seals (that is if you will overhaul it). If you don't have much of a sentimental value to the vehicle, get rid of it. Honda's have questionable transmission reliability per set time (and it is not an opinion).

babs2aroks: From my own View, I guess his making refference to his RPM when car is idle

For me My RPM guage at start is the morning goes above 1 and graudally falls to about 0.5, I guess anything bellow 0.5 gives the engine a ratlling noise or power goes off...

My opinion here is does he have to adjust the idling rpm to achieve a balance on power? I know a feel people get it adjusted to maintain a bit of sability and less vibration...

I just found out today that idle does 500 - 650 mark when the oil pressure is at 1.5 bar (after two hours of combined driving). I was always use to the idle in the morning. It must vary from car to car.

Run from the S80 (if you haven't bought it). Reliability! It also shares parts with Ford vehicles. Save yourself the sweat and get something proper.

The S60 is the continuation of the Volvo that everyone has been accustomed to. In other words, completely Swedish. A real Volvo will have 5-Cylinders (as of today). This vehicle also is not sharing parts with Ford. If you are undecided about what year to choose, the 2004 model is the most dependable. If you have no need for the AWD, stay away from it. The haldex does have its own set of issues/

yungboss: lol@ur anology, e make sense. thanx Ik, taken in. I never reach to speak grammer with trac o...no mind me. U, trac, siena and some other folks here...are guys i respect. I thought i was making enquiries.
@trac,
Pls dont take it too hard on a brother only learning.

@ YungBoss

There are no hard-feelings. I understand now what your intents were; I thought you were trying to be clever. (You should have no problem handling the truth )

Ikenna351: @ Trac & Yungboss,

Dis una grammer don too much. Mey una take am sofly sofly. Me i no do engineering o! Na ordinally Political Scientist i be. The only thing i sabi na spanner and sensor A or sensor B. All these grammer you guys are vomiting here sounds Abracadabra.

Seriously! Yungboss, there is no point trying to prove to anyone why you chose the car you have over others. I used to make that mistake, but have stopped it longtime ago. You. I mean, only YOU, knew what you saw in your car; you know why you prefered it over others and want to stick with it, as long as it takes. You don't have to convince me to believe in your choice. Yes, there could be other better cars out there. But what about it. Must you test all of them before you stop to exist? I can only leave a particular brand when it gives me reason to, otherwise, whats the point. To put it in another manner, must you keep changing wives or girlfriends, as you meet beautiful ladies you never imagined could exist on daily basis? You only have to take one, close the door and face other things in life. Unless that babe gives you reason to look for another (even though we could try to endure untill the thing no gree work again). But then, we have so much in life to explore than to keep limiting our precious time on one thing, changing it over and over again, just to get the full test & satisfaction of it, when there are more things in life to pursue and conquer. Thats how I see cars.

Hope I didnt derail too much?

Ikenna.

@ Ikenna

You may not have studied engineering as you said but you are mechanically inclined (at least to a certain degree). From some of your post, you are a petrolhead (i.e. a person that is enthusiastic about motoring and enjoys the pleasure of driving). To a degree, automotive was covered in my college curriculum and I also went to auto-school and took two trainings: engine installation/rebuild and electronics. This is why you find some of my posts different; it is because I am explaining it from an engineering or manufacturing perspective.

I was going to state the same to YungBoss about choices but you have beaten me to it. It's all good.

babs2aroks: From my own View, I guess his making refference to his RPM when car is idle

For me My RPM guage at start is the morning goes above 1 and graudally falls to about 0.5, I guess anything bellow 0.5 gives the engine a ratlling noise or power goes off...

My opinion here is does he have to adjust the idling rpm to achieve a balance on power? I know a feel people get it adjusted to maintain a bit of sability and less vibration...

Is 500 rpm what the factory intend for it to be normal operation? If you never took time to find out, I'd be a bit concerned because it is low.

Ikenna351: He was referring to the fifth generation Honda Accord '94-'97.

I think Honda used AFM in their old cars and not MAF, i think.

Ikenna

Air flow meter, air meter, mass air flow is all the same thing. Different people and manufacturers call them differently. That is where his problem is. He will have to replace the sensor but not delete the check engine light for the engine would have to readjust to factory's defined statistics. The trims are sinking low.

Ikenna351: He should leave the Throttle body for now and deal with IAC (idle Air control valve) first. From the symptom he described, its idle related.

@Op,

When the throttle body butterfly closses, the IAC bypassed air from the air filter box into the intake manifold, to keep supplying air needed for combustion. If the IAC is dirty or clogged, the valve inside wont be opening and closing properly when the throttle body butterfly opens and closes.

If I were you, I would pull out the IAC, clean it with carb cleaner, allow it to dry, lubricate it with engine oil before mounting it back. And make sure the socket is well plugged in.

No matter how you clean your thottle body and the IAC is still not opening as factory, the engine will never idle properly. It will always stall. But it wont hurt to clean the throttle body afterwards.

Ikenna.

A stumbling is a MAF issue and not a pulse issue from the idle speed control unit. Stumbling not rough idling but bad momentary idle that causes the engine to shudder (so the engine is killed). This is the symptom of a bad MAF. He wouldn't have gotten a proper start-up duty and then it goes all south within a minute or less. If he forces to rev it to keep it alive, it will rev inconsistently across the tach as it tries to faint. It killed the engine not fluctuating the idle up/down and leaving it in that state. The check-engine-light should also not be cleared for it isn't suppose to after service. It will reset itself. This is for adaptability. Also, diagnosing ICV's starts with testing the sensor with a multimeter for voltage drops and proceeding to the valve itself. If the fault is at the control sensor, changing the valve will not help.

Throttle body is completely off-limits in isolating the problem. However, it is strongly recommended to clean the whole thing with the entire intake along with the flame-trap (if the vehicle has one).

What Honda is he referring to?

forbeta: Please Help...
I use a Honda Accord(Bulldog). D problem is when i starts d car first time in the morning, the engine idling(fire) reads 1, but reduces gradually with time from 1 to 0.2 and as a result, the engine begins to vibrate and stops whenever i marsh brake. Dis happens especially when d A/C is on. I hav tried all d mechanics that i knw but dey culd not solve it. Can any one pls tel me what the cause is?

It would also be helpful if you stated the make and model of your vehicle along with the year along with a few prior repairs and factory alterations. You will be assisted easily.

At this point, never take the battery out.

Siena: You say the idling reduces from 1 to 0,2. Could you please clarify what the 1 and 0,2 represent? That way I won't be giving you advice based upon an assumption.

Siena, I think his vehicle is stumbling (from his description). Messed up trims: his values are off predefined/allowable statistics due to his MAF going bad. From presumptions, this is a best of hypothesis.

yungboss: Rubbish: this isn't to be disrespectful but that is just what it is; seriously.

I'm not going to straighten anything with you. I'll pick the raw oh-no-he-didn'ts and mildly highlight them to you. I'm not making a feud. Straighten yourself in those aspects.

First: I did not state steel anywhere. Honestly, I really can't help you here because I will throw you into confusion. Explaining grades and properties is an unpredictable conclusion - let alone where to begin. Having said this, you were better off being quiet for I couldn't comprehensively size you up.

Secondly: I will skip this.

Thirdly: another load of pointlessness. To be quite frank, I don't understand how you drew such a conclusion. Cosworth does not make MB's and they don't do quality for Mercedes. To let you know what Cosworth, it was a Stage II and Stage III. I am not too certain about the Stage numbers because the numbers are interchanged compared to mainstream but in definition, it was exterior, suspension and engine. The mentioned test you claim wasn't done by Cosworth. It is a Mercedes tradition of quality-control. One fact is this, a few years ago, a 27-hour run was done not to far from where I stay. Figure out how special models are done.

Fourth: this is the obvious. You can start by reading BMW's financial report. Then follow-up with those that have the 212 models. I need not tell you the approach BMW took on the F series. A little clue (if you'd understand), the BMW you are referring to has grown up.

I am not a troublemaker but your response was disturbing; inter-changing chassis with builds is something a novice will not err in. No disrespect anywhere!



How can you explain chassis to me?

What you have stated is not truly comprehensible because I cannot tell your point-of-view plus it doesn't make sense. This isn't emotional, this is something else.

Don't try to further educate: you are talking to the wrong person. I will not be talking about this if I was not knowledgeable about it. This is NL, not the laboratory, race-track or a driving event. We are here with one common interest. That interest is shared-humanity. One or two attempts of exchange and nothing is constructive, I withdraw. I don't debate because it is a waste of time and more waste than good is done.
ok, pls lets keep things to ourselves, since i have not made ''common sense'' by asking a few questions and you seem to be the repository of knowledge about certain vehicle dynamics. No need for subtle insults please, i respect your opinions.
Correction: i never stated cosworth built a benz the word carries a quotation.

I don't mind you asking questions. I took my time to respond to your initial query and further processed it out for easy understanding. This way, I can carry many along. Then you responded with a difficult-to-understand reply that was fragmented. This, sure would lead to an argument/debate and it is something I would avoid.

The cars you are referring did not help the situation in anyway but made things go awry. I did not feel insulted in any way. Take the pain to read what I stated. You will understand how vehicles are setup. It will be a lot harder for manufacturers to con you into purchasing another car as oppose to what you have if certain principles are understood.

There are different engines in production. They are also proprietory methods to building them and it puts them at an advantage or enables a company keep a cult-like base. Same goes for chassis setup. MB happens to boast about their new combustion technology and in many of their engines, they had to peg (limit) them because the transmission wasn't capable of the torques and power at certain bands. In Group C F1, when a Mercedes swifts through, the unrefined sound is very obvious, i.e. different from the valvetrain sounds other Group C's vocalise. Let's humbly bring ourselves to everyday activities. The bluetec engine is limited to approx 4500rpm (or something to that effect) but the torque is enormous. It was limited also for the sake of comfort. The technology is brilliant and also very tempting to me. BMW is about to release an M5 that would be diesel but it will be tri-turbocharged. Three turbos to give out some torque. The bluetec isn't turbocharged. That speaks a lot. I forget to mention: Zero-to-Sixty in the bluetec E is 6 seconds. That is stunningly quick for a diesel.

You got the aluminum thing wrong. The bangle-butt BMW's exteriors are made from plastic and aluminum. Why? Logic can explain that. For the gullible, a ready-made answer is there: performance. Mercedes lost a lot of devoted customers and they began retracing their steps. The C Class for the first time in public awareness declared that high-strength-light-weight steel was used for the exterior and was tested against 20,000 psi of force (I'm not sure of the unit). How would aluminum and plastic hold up to such mass - how much more force? It was also coupled with a hydrodynamic chassis that had a personality of its own and it would self-adjust the tyres on certain road conditions. The model sold well. In the Guinness Book of Records, AMG makes the best engines. You need to drive one first. I'm not trying to be superstitious, it is as though the car can read your mind and tell how you feel and drive accordingly. It is like a repressed animal waiting for the unguarded moment and it becomes a complete beast. There is a difference between a 550 and a 55/63. The difference is as clear as noon and midnight. Also, if you are the conservative driver and you just drive your car slowly, the car adapts and defaults to a 550 and remains lazy till a reset is done. There is almost no difference between the highest engine 335i and an M3. Some people can't justify the money. What BMW worked upon was lateral dexterity/nimbleness to the very limit of the chassis and matched it with the appropriate horsepower for its agile potentials.

There is a technique to drive cars. Some cars are forgiving and some aren't. The M3 is known to handle well but once you are out of the limit, it is game over. Since it is good on the race-track, it's not that good on normal everyday roads. It is also very stiff and harsh. The AMG's are not. They are good on road and track and they are comfortable but the power is very brutal and it is obvious. This is how the market wants it.

There are many things I have against BMW's as a manufactured vehicle. It is not on the same level as a Mercedes. In 2009, I read somewhere BMW took a bailout. I rarely see BMW's today. The F Series are not common and BMW has a free maintenance program. Two people have told me that it was factored into the price of the vehicle. If it is true, then I wonder how much those cars truly cost. What's worse is the customers they have lost due to their undependable and poor quality vehicles.

yungboss: just going thru the post again, you also made reference to BMW regarding horsepower, lets compare bmw and merc of same class e.g, c class vs 3series, e class vs 5 etc. You'l discover that mercedes always have the bigger horsepower. Bmws are sort of conservative in torque and hp,result is an antithetsis of what the numbers reveal. Most Bmws are faster than merc of same class (pls correct me if i'm wrong). Mercs are weightier, bmws are lighter and hence tend to be faster(especially off the line, top end could be a differnt story, debatable). The 3.0 e36 m3 and the c43 amg v8 (i ddnt compare the c36 amg)...same goes for the higher models.
Been wondering the bmw that has the aluminium chassis...from the e90 downwards...i know the e46 m3(pls correct me if i'm wrong) has a few aluminium constructed parts like the camber...i dunno of plastic and aluminium chassis save for the new efficientdynamics...

How can you explain chassis to me?

What you have stated is not truly comprehensible because I cannot tell your point-of-view plus it doesn't make sense. This isn't emotional, this is something else.

Don't try to further educate: you are talking to the wrong person. I will not be talking about this if I was not knowledgeable about it. This is NL, not the laboratory, race-track or a driving event. We are here with one common interest. That interest is shared-humanity. One or two attempts of exchange and nothing is constructive, I withdraw. I don't debate because it is a waste of time and more waste than good is done.

yungboss: i saw your post yesterday but couldn't respond, my car's brainbox got fried yesterday, took it to a car wash, washed the engine and somehow mysteriously water touched it...you have written exhaustively on a number of issues, upsides and downsides of BMW but i just want to get proper understanding about a few things.

1. Aluminium is chosen over other materials in car design simply because of its light weight. result is faster acceleration, better braking, improved fuel economy. Alumium will not rust and besides, it is more expensive to use in vehicle production than steel. it also absorbs impact a s well as steel. my question is relating to you comment "An autopsy of a BMW definitely will deter you from using your own hard-earned money into purchasing one. The build underneath its magnificent garb is not what many would expect. A car made of aluminum and plastic does not worth the premium price as oppose to aerospace light-weight-high-strength-steel.". how is steel superior to aluminium in terms of efficiency,or are you making reference to bmw's-Vision EfficientDynamics


2. i have driven a few mercedes: my family's old merc that they call flat boot (coupe), mercedes W124 200E, E320 and my mercedes C220 sold here on nairaland: https://www.nairaland.com/780631/benz-c220-4-sale-n400k
i sold the mercedes which was a difficult thing for me, 'cos it was still in an almost pristine condition. i am a huge fan of mercedes benz. I sold it because i didn't want to have two cars, and wanted to get a BMW...i test drove a 1996 BMW 328i with body packaged like the M3 and instantly fell in love with it, the ride was way different from my c class: less body lean, 6cylinder engine, low CG,etc...
when i talked about suspension, i meant the way the spring and its associated systems are set up...using my own car as a reference, the car is low cos it has short but stiff springs which gives it a little spory feel contrary to the C class i had...suspension is a very vast part of the automobile set up, maybe i would admit a little play of emotion here...

3. your coment: If you want to delve into this aspect, bring to my attention a BMW model that had its engine mounted in the entire chassis and driven at top speed for 27 hours (neglecting refueling) is this in reference to the achievement of the old Merc 190E 2.3-16 & 2.5-16 "Cosworth"? if that's your reference, sure you are aware that the car was modified for the race (320hp,suspension,gearing etc) to test the engine's bulletproof reliability, besides which production Mercedes today is capable of achieving that feat?


4. Above all, your mentality is old. Your perception of MB’s and BMW’s is old. That idea died in fall of 2009. Mercedes for the first time integrated performance without an acceptable depreciation of comfort/ride quality in their model 212 E Class and serious torque to match. This is for the normal series models. The was to reflect the 124 models but with advance technology. This ate into BMW’s market share. The last BMW (model after the E60) has been softened and not as wild as the previous models have been known for. This, I believe was a last-minute conclusion over foresight predictions BMW E90 M3 VS C63 AMG...when put on the track BMW came out on top, i'm sure the C63 has the ABC setup...what about the 750li vs s63 AMG...the BMW got comfort setup, sports setup, sports plus setup on their new model cars (cant begin to search which models got what but the e90 m3 sure has a range of settings) so its both ways for the Mercedes and BMW, reaching out to a wider customer base...

i gotto go check up my car...will be back

Rubbish: this isn't to be disrespectful but that is just what it is; seriously.

I'm not going to straighten anything with you. I'll pick the raw oh-no-he-didn'ts and mildly highlight them to you. I'm not making a feud. Straighten yourself in those aspects.

First: I did not state steel anywhere. Honestly, I really can't help you here because I will throw you into confusion. Explaining grades and properties to you is an unpredictable conclusion - let alone where to begin. Having said this, you were better off being quiet for I couldn't comprehensively size you up.

Secondly: I will skip this.

Thirdly: another load of pointlessness. To be quite plain, I don't understand how you drew such a conclusion. Cosworth does not make MB's and they don't do quality for Mercedes. To let you know what Cosworth, it was a Stage II and Stage III. I am not too certain about the Stage numbers because the numbers are interchanged compared to mainstream but in definition, it was exterior, suspension and engine. The mentioned test you claim wasn't done by Cosworth. It is a Mercedes tradition of quality-control and data is taken. One fact is this, a few years ago, a 27-hour run was done not to far from where I stay. Figure out how special models are done. I doubt the 27-hour run was done in the 60's and 70's and if it were, it wasn't on the 190's. Other methods were used to achieve extended consistency at top end. Another reason you do not know what you are saying is because it wasn't always 27-hours. I was surprised at the extra hours added the normal. The goal was to promote the awareness of efficiency and fuel utilisation.

Fourth: this is the obvious. You can start by reading BMW's financial report. Then follow-up with those that have the 212 models. I need not tell you the approach BMW took on the F series. A little clue (if you'd understand), the BMW you are referring to has grown up.

I am not a troublemaker but your response was disturbing; inter-changing chassis with builds is something a novice will not err in. No disrespect anywhere!

Ikenna351: Trac, even though i have disagreed with you once, i quite agree with you on this.

No offence to BMW fans, but the way you guys make noise about having the best road handlers don't add up. How can you claim you own the best among the best, when you have not tested or used all the best to back up your claim? Yes, we can be emotional about our vehicles, but shouldnt be extreme.

The very first time, the very fist day i drove old school Benz E-class (V-boot), i was so impressed. The steering feel and the over all car character was out of this world. Am not a fan, but I respect that car. If thats how the modern Benz cars handle, then it would be wrong to consider benz as a non-performer. Let the truth be told, everyone would like to own Benz, but not everyone can afford to keep such machine on the road.

Am yet to drive a BMW, to know how good they are too. But trust me, i admire them whenever i see one passing. Pardon me, am a RWD and Euro car freak. I like the looks and specs of E46 328i (I6) and wouldnt mind to have one. But the leg-room will be too small for me (am 1.90m or 6ft 3.5" tall). Too small for my height.

Well, I love my Lions and plan to add another, by the Grace of God.

Ikenna.

The Mercedes you referenced was the last groundhooked in a normal series. You also had proper forceback though comfort oriented. Steering was the traditional MB recirculating ball. The engineering detail that went into that model was great and I believe it was overdesigned. If not overdesigned, it was overengineered. Durability was fundamental platform of design, not reliability as we have today. One thing about the 124 is that you never get tired of it. If you've owned other cars, you will always default to the w124 as a car built to be one. You feel good driving it not posing by one. As great as this model is, the 123 was still a joy to be in. This, however (123) is the best MB in mass production that ever rolled upon the surface of this earth. This is also the last Benz built to a standard.

I don't consider myself a car freak. -- just have a passion for well-built cars though. I am very much into chassis and suspensions and in many cases, I look to find out how the front and rear contributions of a car maximises the forces imposed upon by the ground surface. So, minute details like chassis flexes, load distribution upon certain components is of great interest to me. I am into auto-crossing/gymkhana and driving events. I'm an avid Porsche enthusiast. MB's philosophy gave me the understanding in life that anything doing is what doing well. To over-engineer and engineer to be durable and not reliable: engineer to the aspect where it can not be further improved. This engineering philosophy is how I product-engineer today. Sadly, MB claims they adhere to their philosophy but we see otherwise.

BMW owners feel they drive the ultimate driving machine and boast about a 50/50 weight distribution and they feel like drivers. The two defenses just make no sense to anyone that is learned about automotives. The first joke: the ultimate driving machine -- it is so not a BMW. It is no where close. The truth is the McLaren F1 is the ultimate driving machine. It does what the passenger car does very well and as a thorough-bred race car and also, almost unbeatable. This is the official ultimate driving machine. The version is powered by a Mercedes engine. This vehicle cannot be readily available to everybody. The next vehicle that is practical with respect to mass production is a Porsche 911. This is the ultimate driving machine. It is a super car and also a humble car. It can be driven in all weather and ergonomics is good. On one of the peak climb races, a Porsche was taken from a dealership and fitted with anti-rollbars (as the racing rules stated) and nothing else was modified. Plain stock and it won the competition. Can we say that of today? No! You will need to make modifications. The second lie is the 50/50 deception. You can get near-50/50 in a passenger and special race-models can get you 50/50. In many cases, the seats aren't adjustable. If you want to be irritating about the 50/50 thing, drivers weight would be factored in. Well, there is nothing irritating about that because you shouldn't weigh more than 200 pounds. Secondly, a 50/50 for distributed vehicle for optimum handling would first of all be an all wheel drive with three open differentials. People customise their vehicles to achieve this sort of configuration. There are other factors also but I can't convey them through the keyboard because it's completely sketchy and mixed up.

One lesson - stick to that rear wheel configuration. Front wheel drive dynamics is mockery and a joke compared to a rear wheel configured vehicle. GOD in His awesome and flawless understanding did not equip any of His creatures with the fore legs to propel them. The bias was at the back: bigger legs with reinforced muscles and hip to match. Theoretical principals do not obey commercial principals. In extreme situation is when you will discover how flawed the front-wheel design is. The principles stated by professors will be debunked instantly.

Back to the unresolved: you never finished your case within the coolant and your v6 conclusion. You were just wrong on both topics. A reply would have awarded you a refresher on frequency, vibration and centripetal forces. I was also going to add the real-world differences between the two engines at top-end from mid-end.

Now that I told you, I wouldn't.