₦airaland Forum

chieveboy:
The mistake people make especially that which inspired your question is that when they hear "ECK" they feel it is a religious affiliate of the ECKankar organization, whereas religions and organizations like Eckankar and other mystical schools are merely built around ECK.

I believe you read my definition of this term earlier in the other thread.

Moreover, Pythagoras and several of these 'ascended masters' present the higher teachings (we call "Eckankar" ) via several names and as disciplines like mathematics, music and so on in the course of history.

The person responsible for bringing the teaching out openly once again (Paul Twitchell) employed the terms "ECK" and "ECKankar", he could have used "SOURCE" and "SOURCEpath" respectively for those in English.

For instance, several religions had worshiped the sun and had called the sun and their respective religions different names but are all referring to that singular Sun we all know.

If you can, kindly read the latest story about Rebazar Tarz, it can give you another angle to grasp this "ECK".

So for each age, someone is always around to teach "Eck" in a way or form the people could accept or grasp. This person is the one with the highest consciousness of the day and is usually ordained by a line of ascended masters Eckists call the "Vairagi Adepts". "Vairag" means detached by the way. Sometimes, they work with a few group while they use dreams and 'direct projection' to teach distant ready souls.





This reminds me of the other guy

These guys however are not cut for making statements like "I am a master", if anyone does this, it may be a pointer that they are likely not. Most times, they don't even say their names.

Pythagoras's concept of mathematics further lends credit to the fact that mathematics or physics is merely the physical representation of the physically-definable aspect of what a portion of scientists call the 'Ether'. His approach in giving this teaching out is from the Mental or Third Heaven.

This ECK can be taught even via nursery school rhymes. Tai chi for instance is said to 'graspable' even from eating and doing basic stuff. So also ECK.

Paul Twitchell 'invented' the word , Eck, and gave it several meanings to make it possible for him to link it with prominent persons and institution in history .

The reason he did that was to find support for his false claim that Eckankar , the religion he founded in the sixties, is at the root of all human inventions and achievements, and also that anyone in the past who had achieved anything worth celebrating worldwide was guided by the Eck.

Eckankar teachings describe the word, Eck
to mean the audible life stream, the Holy spirit, 'finer energy' , 'coalesced matter' (which scientists work with), etc. Eck is also defined as the religion , Eckankar, or is used interchangeably to refer to the same thing; Eck teachings, Eckankar teachings, or Eck masters, Eckankar master, etc

What we have here is a situation where a single word is made to mean different conflicting things at the same time.

The problem with this, is that, for instance, the audible life stream and the Holy spirit don't refer to the same reality as Paul Twitchell wanted his followers to believe.

In Christianity, the holy spirit is understood to mean a person or being that's part of the Trinity, the father, son and the Holy spirit.

While the audible life stream in Hinduism is understood to mean the all pervasive universal consciousness within everyone,

But since Paul Twitchell had tied the two opposing realities as one though the word , Eck, it then became easier for him to proclaim falsely that Paul in the Christian Bible was an Eck master and in the same breath Pythagoras was also an Eck master.

The 'Ether' that Pythagoras referred to in his teachings has no connection with the Holy spirit as it's conceptualised in christianity.

There's no known human language in the world, either in the past or present that the word ,Eck, can be found to mean something.. . Eck only refers to the person of Johann Mayer a German Roman Catholic theologian who was an opponent of Martin Luther

Paul invented the word, Eck, for a reason I already explained above.

Cc, @ oteneaaron

chieveboy:
It was nothing beyond statement of facts and nothing personal. The mango never falls too far from the tree does it?

You never mentioned nor issued any disclaimers or even alluded to such in your explicit statements like "lies lies lies" "Eckankar needs your money", "Paul invented the Masters" "phantoms" , and all such statements that qualify as highly defamatory Paul Twitchell and the organizational Eckankar.

You cunningly employed the 'had-not-been proven-by-any-science' dynamics because you felt it gave you a good basis for your arguments about the validity of the masters, but then in another breath, you admit science is rather infantile in catching up to realities. You set a double standard, to what end and for what motive?

Now, if you had admitted that those online resources you hinted at where you said where the sources for when Paul "invented" the masters too where not really verified no proven by any means you hold "scientific", you would have been absolved of any suspicion of harbouring personal issues with the path. You're only (falsely) mentioning you give disclaimers after I requested scientific proof too, and you never did no alluded to any such disclaimers!



Awwwn, so you know about the "love" huh? Poor you sir, I am 'legitely' sorry if I hit a nerve, I am! Know however that what you're getting is LOVE, not "love".

At least we have peeled off an unnecessary layer today revealing that the reality that since ECK Masters are no lab rats that scientists could catch and put under their scopes, perhaps science if interested would explore other current or novel scientific methodologies for the venture.

Also you by now, you should be ditching the notion that science not verifying anything lends any discredibility to things! If anything, science had been a very good source of misinformation and deceit afterall. This is if you have your ears to the ground lately.

So please kindly take it by face value. It walked and quacked like a duck because it was one.

What I have mentioned about Paul Twitchell are facts not just mere claims. So , I don't need to issue any disclaimer.

If you want us to discuss those then create another thread fur it.

Before we had the Internet in Nigeria, I was already exposed to the falsehood of Paul Twitchell. So don't think I just went online to research whatever I have mentioned so far on this thread.

The internet hass only made what is known about Paul popular. That's all.

All that you have up there is another attempt to misrepresent me as usual.

I never completely dismiss your stories about meeting or seeing the Eck masters. I even shared my friend's wife story along the way, but said those meetings were with phantoms and not real beings.

I can only issue a disclaimer for my explanations about what caused those experiences. I talked about the higher self, soul or egregore which are not scientifically proven, but true using alternative methods of enquiry.

If you believe the Eck masters are real, nobody can disprove your claim successfully. But don't say they have been scientifically proven because when you do so people would surely ask for the scientific methods you have used to see if they can also prove it themselves.

chieveboy:
My truth is demonstrated to a large extent from my experiences on the subject and that of others I have shared here. It is substantial even based on scientific yardsticks, given that same outcome of an exactness in the physical appearance and attributes of the Masters is obtained from each accounts from neutral and u related subjects of the 'experiment' where some are shared by the organization.

You keep seeking "a neutral group" for the study, but it was derived from those in Theosophy, Buddhism, Christianity and even atheism. The neutrality was even such that subjects of the experience where not subjected to any form of suggestion whatsoever especially in my case as a clueless Sunday-School-going child!!!

The idea of asking you to grasp the Peer Review system is that just you alone could form one, you could in every ramification of it and the process given the hypothesis at hand. At least you have the basic qualification as especially an informed critic.

So now have the awareness to request a "scientific process" to verify the Masters right?,you however didn't ask this earlier but was emphatic by saying "lies lies lies" to the account of people on the Eck Masters.

That was the actual putting of the cart before the horse, and is what inspired the prognosis of "Eckankar Beefer" and other adjectives I described you. They were apt and exact! It was based on obvious data you left behind not a "guilt shaming". Infact it is a form of guilt-shaming to say I was guilt-shaming you based on the apparrent cart on front of your horse.

It will take you a while to grasp that the mere stories I share here are scientific proof in the sense of the word. And that Eckankar being novel relative to the conventionality of mainstream science and it's research methodologies (much like millions of other uncovered grounds by mainstream science) has equally novel and unconventional processes for it's science.

At least you earlier admitted to the limit of current scientific systems and equally admitted to science not fully graping matters like some African medicine for instance. The only exception you have proven to make to this reality is when Eckankar is involved.

Can you see why we see what we see in terms of your apparent intent and motive although very very inconsequential after all is said and done?

I missed the above

Personal stories without proper verification is not evidence in the natural sciences, please.

What was the method used in verifying the stories you have been sharing? It's not enough to say because people report the same thing, then that's the evidence.

What's the percentage of people who have reported the same thing as against the general population?

What's the cause of the experience?



You said Eckankar is equal to the natural sciences such as physics chemistry and biology.

Natural sciences rely more on experimental data to prove its claims and not experiential data.



Since you haven't been able to provide any such data, it then means Eckankar is not what you want us to believe it's.

Maynman:
You brought in okonkwo and things fall apart and you are using it as an argument but you won’t tell us what happened in the book, what kind of logic is this?

was okonkwo killed by suicide or gunshot?
Which one is the correct one?
And was the chatgpt incorrect in apologizing and correcting his mistakes?

How did you manipulate it?
can you manipulate it to give you another answer saying he died by drowning?


It was you that brought in chatgpt now that it doesn’t align with you it’s false, see what religion has done to you.

In ' Things Fall Apart' by chinua Achebe, Okonkwo killed himself by commiting suicide.

After killing one of the colonial government's messenger, he hung himself to prevent the shame and embarrassment that would follow from a trial in the colonial court.

chieveboy:
Lol this really cracked me up. I had never been under any guise of humility or fake love, if anything, my tenacity and boldness to hold you by the balls was what you had severally tried to blackwash as insult and injuries. You indeed are a funny man sir .




Lol; In this stanza, you now assume the place of the ECK ITself. Wow, King of kings and lord of lords, I hail thee sir.

Give or take, you are indeed a wonderful creature of God you know, we both are .

I didn't assume it. I only reminded you of something that's also accepted as truth everywhere

chieveboy:
Modified*

I thought to make it simpler for you on the guilt-tripping:

1: I can give it to you hot if the occasion warrants and feel no iota of guilt about it. I understand your dynamics of blackmail too well. You can even write Chanhassen about my 'uneckist' attitude. It's all an antic.

I'm not guilt tripping you , but only called you out for your reckless talk which I never expected.

Your pretences led me to see you for what you're not. Now that you have finally come out and bare your fangs , I'm now in better position to know how to relate with you if I ever have to next time.

There are some persons here I don't discuss with even if they quote me, while lessons learnt from discussing with some others have taught me to ignore them next time.



So be yourself and stop pretending. Hit me with anything. Then , it's either I ignore you or respond with fire
.

2: Of course you never directed any "attack" on me and non were directed at your person either. See below.

3: You seem to be mistaking the Master strokes applied to showcase your motive and intent for "personal attacks", anyways, I told you earlier above: emotional blackmail is not for me..

You are vague here. .


.

4: Please bring all the fact out. I am here waiting for you lol, I am so happy to hear that threat ..



Thanks.

Your threat means nothing to me if it means a lot to you.


I shared a link already go through that one first and respond critically to it.

chieveboy:
...I think I further blurred the lines between me and ben odic. I mentioned this fact explicitly to someone earlier on this regard. If you do anyhow, you get the stick in a way an Eckist can and should 'administer' it. You didn't know there is that too right? I see you are yet trying another angle of "gentleman" and "love"...

If you must know, there was yet one here whom I gave the Ben odic treatment, the person only loves to troll. You were engaged because I felt your concerns where legit and you walked the talk of that "gentleman"...

You opened up later mentioning "Eckankar needs your money" and all manner of libellous statements.


I invited you to open a thread where we can talk the sciences on Eckankar,you would rather keep on, you were "winning" after all...

If anything, you proved to be yet another troll who consumed baked and unbaked materials on Eckankar elsewhere and felt you should weaponise it here especially that "claims about Eck Masters are not verified elsewhere" and "Paul was a fraud"...

If anything, I did a fantastic job of shinning the light on what holds this little weapon of yours together and it shattered right in your eyes and now you're sobber and needs "love" when that was infact what you're getting.

More can be done if another thread where I present my 'claims' further is opened.

I think You can go now sir, with blessings of course.

You have finally revealed your self, and I'm not surprised. You have been hiding behind a smokescreen of fake love and pretended humility . I know your type back then in Eckankar. You joined for power. You will disappointed in the end

The path of power leads to destruction for those who follow that route.

None of the things I mentioned so far about Eckankar were direct attacks on your person. You are not Eckankar, but want to take it personal and start threatening me? I Lol





Just keep your eckist stick nonsense to yourself so you don't end up fooling yourself.

Everything I have mentioned here are the truth about Excankar. They are supported by evidence.

1. It's true Paul Twitchell set up Eckankar as business venture for profit. True or false?

Yes, Excankar desperately need your money for survival.No true master anywhere will ever charge you money for initiations or anything else. That has been the tradition.Black magicians are the only ones who charge you for the services they offer you.


2. It's on record that Paul admitted to his wife and close friends he was going to use Eckankar to make money for himself and become very rich.But, unfortunately he didn't live long enough to enjoy the fruits of his ' labour: Others are enjoying it now


.3.Most of the Eck teachings were copied from elsewhere.I will be mentioning those later
Copied is putting it midly. He actually stole them and there are enough evidences of how he did that and where he copied from. The first time stumbled on the truth of how he plagiarised the works of others, I felt duped and realised instantly I have been wasting my time , money and energy... The most disappointing one was even copying from the Christian Bible and passing it off as something said by one of the Eck masters, Lai tsi.I shared a link already. Dare go through it and begin to get exposed to the truth

4. Finally, Paul invented some of the Eck masters. The others he superimposed his own fake version of history so as to link them to Eckankar. If it is true Rumi, Plato, Pythagoras, and others were living Eck masters in the past, the million dollar question is, why is there no record of them ever mentioning or using the name of God, Sugmad, which Eckankar claimed is God's ancient and sacred name. Or did God change his name in the sixties when Paul created Eckankar?


The above started information can be verified
Go verify them.

You want to go where you will bitterly regret.

This is a public forum where I have family and friends who may be deceived by the lies of your Eck teachings. I take it upon myself to protect them just like others helped me to break free in the past.

If you think what you are spreading here are facts, then quit the ad hominem are defend them. But you surely can't do that hence the personal attacks and the threat.

The article below contains useful information that's corroborated elsewhere to be true

https://innersonickey.org/2016/06/20/the-genealogical-connection-kirpal-singh-paul-twitchell-and-eckankar/

chieveboy:
It was nothing beyond statement of facts and nothing personal. The mango never falls too far from the tree does it?

You never mentioned nor issued any disclaimers or even alluded to such in your explicit statements like "lies lies lies" "Eckankar needs your money", "Paul invented the Masters" "phantoms" , and all such statements that qualify as highly defamatory Paul Twitchell and the organizational Eckankar.

You cunningly employed the 'had-not-been proven-by-any-science' dynamics because you felt it gave you a good basis for your arguments about the validity of the masters, but then in another breath, you admit science is rather infantile in catching up to realities. You set a double standard, to what end and for what motive?

Now, if you had admitted that those online resources you hinted at where you said where the sources for when Paul "invented" the masters too where not really verified no proven by any means you hold "scientific", you would have been absolved of any suspicion of harbouring personal issues with the path. You're only (falsely) mentioning you give disclaimers after I requested scientific proof too, and you never did no alluded to any such disclaimers!



Awwwn, so you know about the "love" huh? Poor you sir, I am 'legitely' sorry if I hit a nerve, I am! Know however that what you're getting is LOVE, not "love".

At least we have peeled off an unnecessary layer today revealing that the reality that since ECK Masters are no lab rats that scientists could catch and put under their scopes, perhaps science if interested would explore other current or novel scientific methodologies for the venture.

Also you by now, you should be ditching the notion that science not verifying anything lends any discredibility to things! If anything, science had been a very good source of misinformation and deceit afterall. This is if you have your ears to the ground lately.

So please kindly take it by face value. It walked and quacked like a duck because it was one.

It's not about hitting a nerve as you didn't hit any. it's about calling you out for not showing any form of respect for the people you interact with.

This is not the first time you have thrown caustic comments at me. The evidences are all over this thread.

But I have ignored them , and not react accordingly because I don't want the discussion to degenerate into the ones we see often on this board.. The comment you made has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I have said. It was a very reckless and wayward talk. If I have to respond to that directly, believe me you will run and hide. No one wins a mud slinging contest. You should know that.

I thought you would act like a gentleman just like Benodic who I have never for once seen displaying the kind of overly condescending attitude you have been displaying all along

You think you know all about Eckankar and can defend it? No you don't. Even Harold, your master, wouldn't not answer certain questions you have been using subterfuge to answer.You're certainly overreaching yourself.

Since you want to go the way of some other people here , I think it's high time the discussion is discontinued.

You never tried to provide any direct answers to any of the questions asked concerning your claims but to deflect into irrelevant things to steer the conversion into other areas.

None of your claims have you tried to substantiate. Not even one.

You shouldn't deceive yourself to think we are on the same page on anything here as you try to suggest in this latest reply of yours. There's a difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence. You have tried to blur the lines between the two in order to make me accept some of the things you have said.

You're the one that claim science, not me, and that what you do is scientific, and and blah blah blah.
But to demonstrate the science or provide the scientific proof in support of your claim, you have failed to do so.

You don't talk scientifically proven, you demonstrate it. That's the way it's done in the natural sciences you claim Eckankar is part of.


I don't like deceiving people.I tell it the way it's.,and it's the reason I declared that my claims don't yet find full scientific support, but it doesn't mean they're not true. There are alternative methods of knowing or validating truth as I already explained.

Finally, you can keep your Gopal Das evidences. I don't need them because I know it won't prove anything. There's no valid historical documents anywhere in support of your claims for the phantom being, and even for the other Eck masters.

Paul Twitchell invented all of that. This is public knowledge. Most eckist are not aware of this, or know about it, but have found away around it in order to continue to believe in the teachings of Eckankar.

chieveboy:
If you notice, I tend to desist from discussing anything that may necessary fall under "not scientifically proven" with you. In one breath, you will accept non-scientific claims like egregores and whatnots when it suits you, but when Eckankar is mentioned in same breath, you would not have it. This is your problem--a legit personal issues! If you came out as mystic from the beginning who accepts the objective and subjective arts, I would have considered.

Your embrace and romance of the very unproven phenomena of "Egregores", "Soul", "Higher selves" "Phantoms" so far have demonstrated evidence that you only accept non-scientific phenomena when Eckankar is not involved.





Incidentally I have stumbled on materials where this dude was written about by an Egyptologist even with old copies of manuscript of some of his work, but here you are...


I will furnish you with materials (free) on Gopal Das if you provide scientific data as to how Paul managed to generate "egregores" and whatnots. God knows I need scientific data or corroboration too.

You seem to derive some pleasure from misrepresenting me. I reproduce below what I said in the past on this same thread.

And mind your words please. I don't have any legit personal issues. That's going too far and being reckless with the way you address people. Is that the love Eckankar ask you to share with others?
Stop the personal attacks please and focus on your Op

triplechoice:
Everyone believes something. There's nobody without something that they believe in. Even scientists have what they believe too.

I have shared what I believe on this board too.

But each time I do so, I always issue a disclaimer that what I share doesn't yet find scientific support amongst scientist in the main body of the sciences. With that, I'm always free to share with the public the truth in life I have discovered.

Not every truth in the world is supported or proven in the sciences.

One can use ones knowledge of objective science to validate or explain personal or group truths to the public. But it's deception to then declare next that such truths have become scientifically proven.

Things that are accepted as scientifically proven in the sciences are always published in a peer review journal. That's the only time it's accepted as scientific facts, and not before.

Eckankar truths are not scientifically proven nor is it a branch of physics as you once declared. If that were true, It would be taught in public schools everywhere .


Nobody likes to be deceived. .

chieveboy:
Before your AWARE11, weren't people having NDEs? Answering this is crucial to my point because it is only a matter of time and scientists would help us see other 'dimensions' physically, for now, they are only beginning in matters of NDE and such.

People certainly were having NDE, but the stories that came from it were not verified until recently that scientists are starting to look into it.

Just focus on your Op . AWARE11 is not mine. So don't refer to it as 'your AWARE11' in order to dismiss it .

It's a research study currently being conducted by those in the main body of the sciences drawn from various disciplines, involving neuroscientists, doctors and nurses in some selected hospitals in different parts of the world, and not just
a group of individuall scientists working independently on their own. They're not comparable to creation scientists who are fundamentalist Christians seeking to prove that Bible myths were actual historical events.

So, it's not what you think. If you want to discuss NDE , create another thread for that.

Who mentioned only Eckankar share such stories? Who "manufactured" the beings shared in other stories outside Eckankar? Paul?

Every religion has its egregore( 'manufactured beings')

An egregore is an autonomous non physical entity that has arising from the collective thoughtforms of a group of people.

Every religion or spiritual paths has created its own egregore either consciously or unconsciously. Angelic beings that some persons sometimes report encountering either in dreams or in waking state, are examples of egregores.

The devil or Satan is an egregore. The great white brotherhood, in AMORC is another example of an egregore or egregores.

A spiritual adept who knows how , can consciously create an egregore to control the consciousness of members in any group or movement he or she is seeking to establish or has established. Egregores once formed, starts to feed or depend on the thought energy of those ,who have been drawn into its reality, for its continual existence.

Egregores certainly can provide help and spiritual assistance to anyone who believe and trust in them, but there's a price to pay sometimes which maybe huge and difficult to pay.

The nine silent ones and the other Eck masters which appear to people are all egregores which controls and determines what members of Eckankar, or anyone drawn to the religion experiences.

How come Paul created "lies" that are able to meet people physically and in the inner worlds to talk to them about real-life stuffs even without prior information or clues to and of these "creations" as in the case of me and my dad?

The 'lies' I talked about are the fake version of history he created and superimposed on well known figures in history in order to give Eckankar an impressive historical past to make it appealing to the public.
Pythagoras, Rumi, Lai tso that he changed to Lai tsi, never had anything to do with the rellgion of Eckankar. There's no single connection whatsoever to link them to Eckankar that was created in the sixties.

If I invented a phantom, the phantom should not predate my date of invention as it where in the case of people meeting the Masters way before Eckankar's reemergence in 1965.

You don't know much about Eckankar history. Even though Paul registered Eckankar in 1965, he had already been teaching some group of persons about the religion he was later to register from books he wrote years before that time.

Some of these books were the flute of God and the Tiger's fangs, originally the God Eaters, with contents that were heavily plagiarized from the works of others.

The published dates of those books were not the same day Paul wrote them. He wrote them long before that time. So, what are you talking about?

In the original manuscript of the Tiger's fang, God Eaters, Paul had mentioned kirpal Singh ,one of those who taught him soul travel, as the person who took him on those inner journeys described in the book, but when he broke away from Singh after a quarrel, he replaced his name with the unknown Rebazar Tarz he created in order to get it published later. This information is documented and available online if you search for it.


Still on your question, before anything manifest in the physical plane, it has already happened in the inner where it still can be experienced by anyone. I already mentioned that the higher self has the capability to know things, past, present and future in the present moment. It's not limited by time and space.

It's a surprise to me that inspite of your knowledge of some of the things I have explained concerning the capability of the higher self, soul, which I know you're aware of, you still want to see things from the position of the lower self that's mystified by such experiences.

Don't you think you're trying to deny the truth that you know so well so you can continue to believe?

There are records of Gopal Das in some Egyptian libraries FYI.

Here we go again. Another wild claim not supported by any valid historical document anywhere. Eckankar says so, and without corraboration from elsewhere, it's immediately accepted as fact by you.

What dynasty did Gopal Das create the cult?

Who was the reigning Pharaoh at the time he created the cult?

And where are the links to the libraries, or any books on it. Mention just one name.

Let's pretend we don't care if Paul Invented these guys or not, simply provide logical (if not scientific) clues, reasons to the questions above.

I have done so above.

I'm still waiting for your evidence that a certain Tibetan who is over 500 years old is living in a hut in the Hindu Kush mountain.

chieveboy:
You will wonder how scientists who conduct research on NDE perform such research lol.

Personal stories are no proof indeed

You are not current about NDE studies.

At the moment scientists have found a way to verify NDE unlike in the past when it wasn't possible to so . That's the difference.

Your stories are not yet verified to be true and besides Paul created Rebazar Tarz and Gopal Das.

And you think Eckankar is the only religion where members share similar stories. No.


I already ask you to search for AWARE11 studies to see how scientists are currently verifying NDE and compare it with your own Eckankar stories.

Please don't deflect again into NDE. Focus on your Op.

chieveboy:
I provided such from people collected from all manner of backgrounds like Christianity, Islam, atheism and so on. I even hinted on mine and my dad's. Eckankar further provided methodologies to contact these ascended masters.

From the look of things, you're actually with the ball, especially how you rather prefer "scientific" corroboration to things like this. I like you to set an example.

Waiting...

Personal stories are not proofs. You should know that already.

Provide proofs that Rebazar is from Tibet and was once a living Eck master.

chieveboy:
How about we keep it simple and in your terms:

Produce a scientific fact to your "evidence" that Paul manufactured the Eck Masters. Remember you earlier mentioned a certain evidence existed to such claim.

Let's start from there at least.

The burden of proof is on you ,and not me.

Defend your Op first. Don't run away.

chieveboy:
My truth is demonstrated to a large extent from my experiences on the subject and that of others I have shared here. It is substantial even based on scientific yardsticks, given that same outcome of an exactness in the physical appearance and attributes of the Masters is obtained from each accounts from neutral and u related subjects of the 'experiment' where some are shared by the organization.

You keep seeking "a neutral group" for the study, but it was derived from those in Theosophy, Buddhism, Christianity and even atheism. The neutrality was even such that subjects of the experience where not subjected to any form of suggestion whatsoever especially in my case as a clueless Sunday-School-going child!!!

The idea of asking you to grasp the Peer Review system is that just you alone could form one, you could in every ramification of it and the process given the hypothesis at hand. At least you have the basic qualification as especially an informed critic.

So now have the awareness to request a "scientific process" to verify the Masters right?,you however didn't ask this earlier but was emphatic by saying "lies lies lies" to the account of people on the Eck Masters.

That was the actual putting of the cart before the horse, and is what inspired the prognosis of "Eckankar Beefer" and other adjectives I described you. They were apt and exact! It was based on obvious data you left behind not a "guilt shaming". Infact it is a form of guilt-shaming to say I was guilt-shaming you based on the apparrent cart on front of your horse.

It will take you a while to grasp that the mere stories I share here are scientific proof in the sense of the word. And that Eckankar being novel relative to the conventionality of mainstream science and it's research methodologies (much like millions of other uncovered grounds by mainstream science) has equally novel and unconventional processes for it's science.

At least you earlier admitted to the limit of current scientific systems and equally admitted to science not fully graping matters like some African medicine for instance. The only exception you have proven to make to this reality is when Eckankar is involved.

Can you see why we see what we see in terms of your apparent intent and motive although very very inconsequential after all is said and done?

Round about talk as usual without demonstrating anything.

Rebazar Tarz is a fictional character created by Paul Twitchell. That's a fact.. There's no Tibetan that's over 500 years old

Be bold to search for the information on this and know the truth. Start from there first.

Exam you never pass. You dey ask for certificate.

Person wey never produce bottle water nor they demand for NAFDAC approval.(peer review)

Produce something first make people see.

chieveboy:
If you understand the basics of what constitute the Peer Review System, set it up and let's go to work verifying Rebazar Tarzs. This is the only reasonable way.

Lol. You want to put the cart before the horse. First of all demonstrate your truth here before you talk about peer review. It's between you and me now.

Peer review is for the public after you must succeeded in demonstrating in private what you know.

chieveboy:
If you marry your earlier admittance that scientists themselves recognize the limit of their apparatus and systems and also to the fact that, a Universal creator for instance cannot or had not been scientifically proven and many others, then you will see the futility of your argument on the aforementioned less than you will see it in a case where several people especially me, meet DISTINCT "inventions" of Paul Twitchell (often) years before hearing of them anywhere else personally or in dreams and NDE, often perfectly describing the looks, smell, etc of these beings.

It gets more difficult for you where these "inventions" or "phantoms" are able to perform everyday actions physically and even cause supernatural events like healing to occur.

This summarizes your dilemma.

It's said that what you don't know or understand is what other people who know it can use to scam or deceive you. I have tried to explain why people have those experiences, but it's not yet making sense to you. The time will come.

Eck masters are not the only phantom beings people have experienced.

Just provide an experiment people can conduct themselves to prove the Eck masters are real. That's how things are done n the natural sciences where attention is more on experimentation
to prove something before it's later observed and confirmed in natural settings.

You said Eckankar is connected to physics. Let's see that without any time wasting.

chieveboy:
You missed the meaning of the paragraph you quotes first.

Try to understand words even from their face values so you won't need to insinuate we use Google to digest basic compound sentences and words, do this for especially the word "Science". "Peer review" has its meaning staring at you in the face even for someone who didn't do any form of research.

After you grasp the meaning of the two words in their conventional definition and application, come back let's talk of how to scientifically verify ECK Masters. Remember, be sure to come with a conventional definition of "Science", I have already broken down "peer review" earlier.


Science has words for ECK, God and Soul.
That you mentioned scientists don't use the term "ECK" as validation for your point expresses naivety on a basic level where it is common knowledge that most body of knowledge and discipline use terms relative to their field while dealing with same thing.

If you were sincere or progressive, perhaps you would have sought definition of those terms ( despite the fact that I did that from the beginning of the thread).

I am not sure at what point I told you this thread is to link Eckankar with natural sciences even though the whole of the natural sciences and social sciences are sub-branches of the science of Eckankar.

I am not sure why you will not have it that the Physics is a branch of Eckankar. I am sure however that you know that this would somehow demystify Eckankar to the public, this is not good for your ambition.

Lol . Which ambition? This is Nairaland. Once you post anything here expect it to be challenged. You want to guilt trip me?

The other time it was beef and then later an affront against Eckankar. Talking of affront, do you know what it means for a person or organisation to mislead another person with lies to make them act irrationally for years believing they were doing the right thing.

I don't hold on to anything, and it's the reason I still say Eckankar has its good side, something I know some ex members would never admit I know of someone who angrily left with all the property he once donated to Eckankar for use. You can imagine that.

I suspect you're trying to postulate me into something that's all. It won't work.

Please just focus on your Op which has to do with the Eck masters .

I had mentioned at the beginning that the Eck masters such as Rebazar Tarz were fictional creation of Paul Twitchell. I still stand by that. The ball is in your court to prove me wrong. I'm not interested in your peer review, physics , or meaning of any word deflections

What do you want to tell me now? , 'Eck', means spirit and that
'ankar' means, the way and when put together, Eckankarr means the way of the holy spirit?

You want me to keep reminding you that I knew of Eckankar before you?
Just focus on your Op so the thread is not derailed again or better still, ignore me. If you can't answer my question about Rebazar Tarz.

chieveboy:
Identify this "main body of science" please. Give it a distinct identity if you can.

It is not true that "nobody takes you serious" if any of your work does not pass through the criteria of "main body of science". A dead giveaway on this is your statement on a certain "higher self" and "Soul", at least we have one irrefutable guest to this as your person. You make me laugh all the time, I give you that.

Where did you read that scientists have accepted soul as real or that humans have a soul? It's only amomgs those who study spirituality that the soul is recognised .

If you don't know the difference between individual scientists working on their own and other groups of
trained scientists in the natural sciences who are expected to publish their research findings for it to be peer reviewed by others before it can be accepted as fact, then I'm afraid there's nothing I can tell you again, not especially after you already boasted that you can teach me quantum physics.

You call peer review journal *ss journal? SMH
.

I can imagine the seriousness in opting for the game plan in using this angle of argument that since the Eck Masters have not been scientifically proven, they are false, so you expect every one to fall for this. It is so naive as to draw derision..

I don't have your assumed game plan. It's your habit to just imagine anything and immediately shift it to me.

You were the one, not me, that bought the science talk into the discussion. You first declared that Eckankar is science and also that physics is one of its branches. Have you forgotten so soon?

Labelling anything science or scientifically proven is not enough. Anybody can make that claim. The important thing after such declaration is to demonstrate it or provide evidence . if not , you have made an empty claim.

I have asked you severally to substantiate your claims, but each time instead of responding directly, you went off on a tangent to lecture me on metaphor, fiction, quantum physics, imagination, astral plane and what not that has no relevance to the question asked.

Eckankar is not taught in public schools as part of the natural science,. So why do you expect the public to swallow your claim without questioning it?
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Science if anything is 80% theories. This is what drives science literally: unverified OBSERVABLE phenomena!!! Big Bang, Evolution, and so many others!!!

Digest the below and marry it with the above.



1: In science, it's called a 'Theory' if not yet a 'Law' or Formula. For it to be one, it must pass through a verification process relative to expected outcome that are usually 'Substrate Neutral and according to certain 'Guidelines'. This however changes with the branch of science in question and applications of it. .

You have displayed a layman understanding of scientific theory up there, and still think you're qualified to teach anyone science?

You went to do a Google search and don't understand what you researched. Go and find out from trained scientist ,who studied it in the university, what is scientific theory in the sciences and come back here to inform me what you're told.
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2: You need to get how the system works--the Peer Review System.

It's basically an assessment of your work to check if it meets certain standard (Relative to the Guide' IN YOUR FIELD. This could be anything like the study of the Paranormality of ECK Masters!!! In other words, the Peers are people who are equally versed in what you do. So you can't take Peers from Microbiology to review Parapsychology!.

Another Google search you didn't understand.
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A field of study is Pneumatology. It is a branch of theology that deals with the study of the 'Holy Spirit'. Left to your "body of science", it's "lie lie lie". I suppose you will send in a letter of reprieve and 'rubbishment' that a certain "body of science" had not yet "scientifically verified" this thing called "Holy Spirit"..

Just imagine the wayward comparison. So, Pneumatology a branch of theology which studies the ' holy spirit' is now part of the natural sciences such as physics, chemistry etc ?

Chai ! no wonder.
I now understand better the person I have been chatting with. This is the last reply from me.
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3: More to open your consciousness: An intrepid maverick by the name Maxwell Chikumbutso invented a power generator that runs out of 'nothing'. Your "scientifically approved" guys went to check it out here in Africa Zimbabwe, they are Peers.

They did all manner of tests and couldn't identify any point where the 'laws of conservation of energy' held sway. Even for this reason, the guy can't yet secure a patent on this because he has no "Peers". Still, the generator powered cars non-stop, he fitted it into a TV that connects to no grid. The tech is featured in the documentary "Thrive 2" where world-acclaimed physicists where the Peers. I suppose since your "body of scientists" could not make anything of how the tech works, he was deceiving people. . .

He is not deceiving people .Unlike you who says something but cannot provide proof or demonstrate it, only sharing stories. The young man didn't not share any story. He showed them the real thing live and direct.

It's just a matter of time for the scientists looking at it to rationally explained how it works, and who knows, he might even win a Nobel prize for his invention after .

Scientific truths are rationally explained truths. If it cannot be rationally explained then, it's not considered science yet. The things you learnt in schools in the sciences are thoroughly explained to show how they work. The term, Eck or holy spirit is never used in the natural sciences to describe anything. Don't use that to confuse your followers.

Scientists talk of energy and not holy spirit or Eck. Eckankar is using Eck to replace energy. I'm aware of that, but it's a way to connect what they do with science.




.

Lol, "scientific methods" are just yardsticks that some folks agree between themselves. They are not static but dynamic, the yardstick keeps changing to absorb new knowledge because we "we learn everyday".

Science has branches, "scientific methods" that applies in Chemical Engineering does not apply in Sociology or Economics. This is why it beats me to see you running the little antic of introducing the "scientific body" game just so to say Eckankar claims are not verified in one lab likely in the USA .

I don't think you know much about the scientific method.

Economics is social science and not the same as the natural sciences You want to confuse me here as usual. But you failed again.

While Social scientists work with experiential data , those in the natural sciences work with experimental data. So they both cannot be compared in their use of the scientific method.


You claimed that physics is a branch of Eckankar , meaning it's part of the natural sciences and also a higher form of it. If that's true can you please mention just one experimental data eckist are currently working with or have worked with to prove Eckankar claims. Just one.

What you have posted here so far as proof are personal experiences.



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Guess how "scientifically proven" is done in disciplines like psychology and sociology for instance? Same way you have people who experience something like the ECK Masters in Eckankar.

It a no brainer!!! Random sets of people come in and identify these Masters often years before finding out they are real and there are others who continue to work with them DAILY. Not just daily, but PHYSICALLY, often with distinct scents that accompanies the presence of these guys who do some real stuff like giving them stuff in the dream and the wake up to find it with them, or healing them of diseases that awon "scientifically proven" can't heal!!!

Funny man! .

You are talking to me forgetting that I didn't hear about Eckankar just yesterday. Most of the things you mentioned up there were some of the things I also repeated to others about Eckankar. You only me reminded of the past. That's all.

You're the funny man here.

I never affirmed that if something is not scientifically proven that it means it cannot work or is not true.

Some herbal medicine are not scientifically proven but work better than the orthodox one. On their labels you usually find the disclaimer from the FDA that the claims of cure made by using the product is yet to be proven . Is that not so?

There are alternative methods to prove or discover truth in the world that we live in ,but these other methods, even though they sometimes work or a far effective, are still regarded as pseudoscience, by trained scientists in the natural sciences..

You haven't been able to demonstrate the science that is Eckankar on this thread up till now yet you want the public to accept your claims that it's a higher form of scientific practice.

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If it works, there goes the 'Scientific Proof', No Peer review needed. If it doesn't, then it is a theory that needs subjecting to methods laid down by the manufacturers on how to use the supposed fake medicine. If it fails, it is fake. Follow the manufacturer's method that led to their claims, if the effects are reproducable, there is your 'science'!

The Igbo traditional healers use steam from some plants to cure Iba. Those are the procedures, use " the steam and cover yourself in it", Iba is gone! USA people don't have that in their "procedures" and no one needs a "body of science" for that. .

I already explained this. Above, and it's not the first time.
Trained scientists in the main body of science don't stop with 'if it works' , then it's good. They also want to know what causes it to work so it can be replicated by others: Why did it work and can it be rationally explained in a way everyone can understand it?
If you go online to search ,you will get a very detailed explanation of how the phone you're currently using works to enable you make call and post on Nairaland. Nothing is hidden.


.

Lol, refer to the above.



The stories shared in this thread as I have told you earlier is proof. There is no such a thing as randomity in nature as it where. People just can't have inner and outer experiences with distinct and specific set of Non-existent set of people called the ECK Masters as you try hard to make people believe.

Studies have been conducted on the matter of death, it's not under a microscope as you have us reason, they ask people their experiences lol, same thing you try hard to rubbish here. What these people report is what most set of the group report: "Passing under a tunnel of darkness to a light".

Who conducted these researches: "A body of Scientists" lol..

NDE experiences is currently being studied in the sciences. Google, AWARE11 , for latest updates. You cannot compare NDE with those of meeting with Eck masters. The later is wholly subjective.

People who have had an NDE would sometimes report, after been resuscitated, some of the things doctors were doing to bring them round at the time they were pronounced clinically dead, proving that the experience is not hallucinatory or completely subjective.

Morever, scientist studying NDE have been able to observe through modern brain scanners some of the activities going on in the brain when people are having those experiences.. The knowledge gathered so far has helped them to determine the exact period people pronounced clinically dead have NDE.

Even though they still cannot explain everything, they now agree people actually have those experiences, and that not all of it is hallucination. This wasn't arrivedd at through guesswork or by only listening to NDE stories alone, but by a meticulous study of the phenomenon.

For Eck masters nothing is known only unverified stories of people who claimed to have met them.

The main reason why it's difficult to sell Eck masters to the public is that there's evidence Paul created them.

Members of Eckankar either don't know this or know it but afraid to look at the evidence for fear of losing their beliefs. The first time I knew of it, I was disappointed and didn't waste my time to walk away. I don't like being deceived and I also try not to deceive anyone.

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What was the yardstick or 'Guide': The oral reports of people who where once clinically "dead".

What was the outcome? Same "Tunnel... light"

The didn't go through or see the rainboots of Superman, or the Mainland bridge, their reports had a single thread running all of them!!! Science MR!!!


We learn daily!.

You are not coherent here. It's not the 'oral reports' alone I will post a link for you to see what's actually being done at the moment

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Hahahaha, na you we suppose ask you o, you so many years there yet here you are and someone who joined Eckankar from Nairaland is giving 'disturbing' updates .

Actually, Jesus has a parable on that. It's found in the Book of Matthew 13:1-23.

We learn everyday!.

You only repeated what I have done away with for long. Nothing you can tell me about Eckankar that I have not heard before.

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Lol, it's basic use of English where ones application of Semantics and Pragmatics could have been of help. It means the people who use a form of Soul Travel are 'Scientists', simple!

Meanwhile, till today, scientists are still bringing counter arguments on established scientific facts like on 'photons' for instance. You on the other hand are fixated on some beef. If science have branches, how can someone say all scientists adopt what other scientists adopt? Crazy indeed.

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You just want to use any means to connect Eckankar with objective science when there's no such connection at all. You don't care if it makes any sense or not to do so.
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There goes several answers to your affront on Eckankar!!! First, science study the body of ECK which forms the physical. In other words, any material thing is a condensate of the ECK at the highest level and the Atom or Matter at the coarse or base level.

Current apparatus with earth scientists are limited to the material atom indeed and people who know what they are doing admit this limit, when would you yours?

Scientists however have made headway in going beyond the atomic level with new machines I hinted on earlier.

If you have not yet grasped the above, invite me to a thread so we can go into the Eckankar-Physics relation. This thread is already over-derailed.

You have been usimg Eckankar terminology to describe what is being done in the natural sciences in order to link it to Eckankar. That's deception.

You can only deceive the gullible public with that ,and not me. The natural sciences and Eckankar are two parallel lines. They don't meet.

The word, Eck, is not understood by outsiders to mean anything. Scientists don't use that word to describe anything they're dealing with, and there's no dictionary, except Eckankar dictionary that the word, Eck, is described the way it's understood by eckist. I can equally fit in the word, 'mago mago' in the place where you have using ,Eck to link it with objective natural sciences, without any change in meaning. I will also declare that 'mago mago' means the holy spirit.

Use a common language next time if you are sincere and not trying to deceive the public. I know you cannot do that because everything you have explained is exactlly how it's explained in Eckankar, and you cannot deviate from it, without getting into trouble. You will be sanctioned for departing from Eckankar teachings and doctrine.

Finally, the blame for the thread being derailed belongs to you.

That's why I won't be responding again ,unless you answer directly to my first comments of how it is possible for anybody to still continue to live in their physical body for 500 years now.

Or provide evidences that can be independently verify concerning your claims . Anything else is ignored from this moment.

Thank you.

chieveboy:
Some more grist for your mill: Paul of the bible is an ECK Master today

Not only Paul. Muhammad the founder of Islam was an Eck master.

Sango, Orunmila and others were also Eck masters.

Eckankar really can mess up with people's minds

chieveboy:
Its not me per se, It walked and quaked like a duck...

Lol, Scientists now do a form of Soul Travel! The things they see and find in this science is what finds its way in (admittedly some) cartoons, sci-fi, tech, medicine etc without some public *ss journal! This man, where do you stay na, and what have you been doing? .

Eckankar, you didn't follow, Science, you're not taken along.

Scientist now agree that 'Material Science' is limited. They drop the material body to use machines to propel their consciousness using what is referred to as the 'astral' in other climes and interact with Matter, doing science where the scope of the microscope stops . I know all hell of 'na lie' is let loose where you are right now . If you're pointed in a direction, you will say they are "paid actors". Contrarianism spurred by apparent lack of success in Eckankar!

I recall I told you Physics is Eckankar, albeit a rather dumped-down form of Eckankar, you said "na lie"! If you now see the gains of science on the subject of Eckankar, I wonder what you will say. Science and Eckankar meet as Quantum Physics (QP), where QP still is just a nursery stage of the gains made in establishing that the building blocks of Matter is not actually the Atoms and most likely not 'Quarks', but are entirely 'non-local' to our domain.

You are here waiting for someone to publish a journal right? D'banj has the word for what you're in for, and its somehow long

I'm not surprised you failed to understand what I explained about scientifically proven.

I admit as individuals or groups, one can use the methods of science to prove one's claims, but in the main body of the sciences before anything is accepted or tagged as scientifically proven it must pass through certain criteria, if not , nobody takes you serious

The conditions that must be met is to ensure
that the public is not deceived by anyone claiming science . And one of the conditions is that your findings must be published in a peer review journal for other scientist to validate it .

This still doesn't mean as individuals you cannot publicly or privately prove your claims scientifically if you know how to use the scientific method. But have you done that here? No. You haven't. But just sharing stories.


Anyone can form a new religion or come up with anything, and just declare it's sciencei or scientifically proven . How can we be sure? That's the question.

People who sell fake medicines or other substandard products usually make the false claim
of having some approval to sell when they don't, or their products is scientifically proven to work in order mislead the public to buy from them

Honestly you're behaving like someone living far away from civilization, and because of that cannot understand how things work in the real world.

You claim to be good in the sciences, yet don't know the criteria for judging what's scientifically proven and what makes something a part of the sciences. You have a layman understanding of the technical term, scientifically proven.

You just cannot claim science without proof. That's the truth. You can only deceive the uneducated or the gullible public that Eckankar is a branch of physics. Not me.

Is it not the same Eckankar I know that you only joined recently from being exposed to it on Nairaland?

You're the one on a long thing if you think Eckankar is a branch of physics and that scientists are now ',doing a form of soul travel.

Just imagine the crazy talk. You make it seem scientists everywhere have now accepted ' a form of soul travel' as part of what must be done to discover truths.

Finally, scientist are just not admitting the scientific methods of enquiry has its limitation. They already know that for long.

chieveboy:
Its not me per se, It walked and quaked like a duck...

Trying to hide with the above after you were asked to provide proof of the alternate moniker you claimed I have?

SHM

I understand you cannot take it that I met Gopal Das even as a kid and recognized him in an Eckankar publication. I also get the 'inspiring' angle you chose to interprete my dad's meeting with the current Living ECK Master. I know...

All of these are not relevant. Just provide proofs that the Eck masters are real beings , and also that RUmi, Shamus, Pythagoras were once Eck masters who taught Eckankar. It's as simple as that.

I also get how you joined Eckankar to no success, whereby this failure to get such experience was your verification of the falsehood that the 'Paid Actors' vis Harold Klemp, Paul Twitchell, Phil Morimitsu, Hundreds of other writers, Me, My Dad and all the ECKists who study ECK and make it work for themselves in their daily lives from time immemorial to today. I get all this. I suppose you're having a good time in your current path which is all that matters?

Lol. You don't know anything about my Eckankar past. You're Just speculating to find something to hang on to. I had experiences in Eckankar you can only dream of having. So don't go there. .

Forget about me for now and ask yourself ,why a former RESA, A former president of Eckankar, and other numerous higher initiates above the fifth level have all left Eckankar.

Is it because Eckankar failed them, or they too, according you, were unable to have any experiences of meeting with the Masters?

Instead of proving your claims made on this thread, you choose to attack my personality.


If you want links to websites and Facebook pages of former eckist sharing their experiences about Eckankar, just let me know.

When you visit those pages, you will meet with former eckist who have shared their Eckankar experiences of 'meeting' phantom Eck masters and travelling to illusory Eckankar higher worlds or heavens . You will also get to read why they finally choose to leave after all those wonderful experiences . When you're done, come back here to brag again or talk about my own experiences you know nothing about.

I'm aware Eckankar has barred you from visiting such sites. It's not just barring you alone, they have also threatened you with karma or being cut off from Eckankar and the master. Have no fear . The truth is that, they're afraid you would leave them, hence the threat.

Eckankar need your money to survive.

The screenshot mentioned an experience with a master "not here in the physical plane...". The statement sounds like someone who knew more than he mentioned. Moreover, the statement which led to all this digging and me revealing more, even that of my dad's, was that i said "you must have read where I wrote elsewhere my experience with Gopal Das". I indeed I have written it elsewhere. a guy here on Nairaland called Temple333 was the person I mentioned this to, asides the different instances I had mentioned this experience.

Changing the goal post again. It started on this thread when I ask how many times you' severally' mentioned Gopal Das.
Now you have shifted to another thread I don't know anything about.

Accept your lot in good faith and move on. People whom the ECK masters chose to reveal themselves to are merely old friends from past lives, had shared a bond, where students of these guys or are more open to truth or Love basically. Others who met them by intent are sincere in their search for truth about this.

The same thing I was also made to believed in the past untill the deception was exposed.

You just regurgitated one of the false narratives in Eckankar: that those who meet with Eck masters had some connection with them in the past or are sincere seekers of truth.

The irony of it all is that the religion telling you about sincere seekers of truth is actually lying to you.

And which past?

Is it the one with fictional Rebazar Tarz or Gopal Das Paul Twitchell created in the 60s?

Now you know? Did you even for one second turn to look at yourself trying to obfuscate and rubbish a Soul Travel experience of someone in one sentence and then bringing in the subject of "Soul" or "The Higher Self" in another? Do you know how much ignorance you further let out around the subject of "imagination"?

Where did I rubbish it? Show me?

I said such experiences are not unusual for soul to have. How is that rubbishing it?

And where is the ignorance I displayed on the subject of imagination'?

Because of your poor understanding of what Eckankar teaches about imagination, you wanted to make me believe that once you imagine anything, then it must already be existing somewhere in the physical plane . if not, you wouldn't have been able to imagine it in the first place.

But when I challenged you, you then shifted to astral plane where you said cartoon characters can exist as if the astral plane and physical plane are the same kind of place.

Is spider Man existing in a material form anywhere in this world that you and I occupy?


FYI, Paul Twitchell copied Eckankar teachings from other spiritual paths where they're correctly taught. I know you're ignorant of this because they always tell you that he came to gather the teachings of Eckankar that were scattered in different spiritual paths and religion in different parts of the world. Lies, lies and lies.

Continue sharing your stories, but Just know they are unverified stories of people , which cannot serve as proof of anything at this time.

Scientists don't prove their theories with personal stories. You said Eckankar is science and I branch of physics. Where's the science? You have not been able to demonstrate or prove it. Just empty talk all the time.

You accept those stories as evidence because you have know way of explaining why people have those experiences .
Also because ,it was put together by Harold from stories sent to him.
Harold is God representative to you and cannot deceive you.

So who am I that you should listen to . Someone just making noises on Nairaland.

chieveboy:
I don't know...I can only be sorry for having an experience with Gopal Das way before I knew how to read and write.

This is the beauty of personal experience: NO ONE can take away your experience!

I wish someone without 'vested interest ' would understand that the attached image is of someone speaking of someone they know and recognize their name even if they didn't mention it.

Besides, I did told you "I mentioned his name earlier". This would be about the third time I was mentioning their name and the experience here on Nairaland.

Not to impose Gopal Das and the "phantoms" as you call them directly here or via your alternate Moniker I always ignore, keep your convictions while I keep my experience.

Can we agree on this?

I don't have any other active Nairaland moniker apart from triplechoice. You always imagine things and want to believe them without confirmation.

And no, you didn't mention the name Gopal Das at first. . In the screenshot you shared below, there's no mention of the name Gopal Das yet, you still want to imagine it's there.

Please let's end this. it's leading to no where. I already suggested you hold on to your convictions as long as they benefit you.

Everyone believes something. There's nobody without something that they believe in. Even scientists have what they believe too.

I have shared what I believe on this board too.

But each time I do so, I always issue a disclaimer that what I share doesn't yet find scientific support amongst scientist in the main body of the sciences. With that, I'm always free to share with the public the truth in life I have discovered.

Not every truth in the world is supported or proven in the sciences.

One can use ones knowledge of objective science to validate or explain personal or group truths to the public. But it's deception to then declare next that such truths have become scientifically proven.

Things that are accepted as scientifically proven in the sciences are always published in a peer review journal. That's the only time it's accepted as scientific facts, and not before.

Eckankar truths are not scientifically proven nor is it a branch of physics as you once declared. If that were true, It would be taught in public schools everywhere .


Nobody likes to be deceived. .

Good morning.

chieveboy:
This really isn't an effort to convince a triplechoice is it? How would you have know if this hasn't been done?

So now it indeed sounded convincing finally right and it's "salt and pepper"? .

Your father is here in Nigeria and dreamt of Harold in America he has never met or seen before, and so?
Is the higher self , soul, not capable of having such experiences? . yes or no? Make sure you answer this question, if not, it would prove to me you're just pretending.

I'm not on this thread to convince you of anything, but to question your claim. It's your responsibility to convince me. Don't shift that burden to me.

It's not a must that your father will later get to meet Harold or join Eckankar and if that doesn't happen then I'm talking bullshit. This is the position you're viewing things from and it's very disappointing despite what I tried to explain before now which you never bothered to read.


I'm not a dream interpreter and I'm not interpreting your father's dream as you think. We started with dreams of people like yourself who dream of something and later get to experience or hear of it.
And I said such dreams that come to pass are described as dream of precognition.

Your father dream is yet to come to pass , as we might expect, for it to be accepted as that. There different kind of dreams , not only dreams of the future.. You should know this as an eckist because Eckankar let you know the different kind of dreams that exist.


The likely scenario I suggested of what may play out to confirm if your father's dream is that kind, was with the assumption that he might have had a precognitive dream.

The higher self, soul, is not limited to knowing the future alone.It can see the past, and even what's currently happening far and near in the present moment, with what is perceived downloaded to the brain for storage ,so that when we wake up from such dreams we are able to remember it.

However, not everyone remembers their dream and this is usually due to pyschological and biological reason.


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I repeat, the man drew Harold, kept that in his diary. I repeat again, he and Harold may most probably never ever meet physically.

I also repeat, the man will never ever join Eckankar in this life time. He does his thing .
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You can't blame me for expressing doubts . You have not presented evidence for the drawing to confirm if he got the exact image of Harold.

He will never meet Harold or join Eckankar if it's not a precognitive dream. Do you think Harold is even conscious or aware he met your father in a dream? He doesn't know.


Now for the first time, you just announced the drawing is in his diary. You now have a perfect excuse for not showing us. A dairy is private. You're very smart..

"Harold does not exist", "my old man's meeting with Harold was likely inspired by very imaginative mind of a youth". I give you all of this for free. You are very very right, the Eck masters are figments of imaginations and you understand what imaginations really are.

The above is wayward talk if you read what I have explained above. I did before, but you won't read carefully to make the right deductions.

Your father dreamt of Harold, and not the way you are putting it, as if it's a physical meeting.


And you want to compare Harold a living person, anyone can meet live, with phantom beings that subjectively appear and disappear to people?
Ok

chieveboy:
The funny thing about all this back and forth is this:

1: Indeed mentioned severally even to you that I met Gopal Das. You rubbished that.

2: I told you my dad met Harold, as an artist, he drew perfectly Harold Klemp. He didn't say "I saw a white man" as you villainously presented it, he drew the man lol. Still You will not have anything 'good' scribed to this experience.

You lie. You never severally mentioned you met with Gopal Das on this thread At first you only claimed you saw an Eck master in a dream . It was only recently, after much back and forth, you revealed the identity of the person as Gopal Das. The thread as not gone far. Anyone following can go through our conversation to confirm for themselves. It's clear you have been lying to me to prove your points.

So, why do you now expect me to believe completely your claim that your father met Harold in a dream , and has a perfect drawing of him.
If there were such drawing, by now ,it would be news in Eckankar because you would have snapped it, at least with your phone camera, and posted it, either here or sent to Eckankar headquarters in America. You just added salt and pepper to your father's experience to make it palatable. A lot of eckist do that all the time when they share their encounters of meeting with the so called Eck masters. I know that very well from my time there.

Note again my old man will never meet or become an Eckist. Why urging me to go tell him of Eckankar na? So your theory will become fact by fire by force? . Eckankar evangelises not.

Eckankar evangelises not,? Really ?
Then, what's this thread all about if not evangelising?

You have created several threads to talk about Eckankar ,yet you say Eckankar doesn't evangelises.

You're in denial and acting deceptively too.

Eckankar evangelises, and it's called ,VAHANA. .Other eckist do that here to share Eckankar with the public.

You can only deceive yourself with your lies not me.

And how does my theory becomes 'fact by fire' if you tell your father about Eckankar?

Telling him that the person he drew is the spiritual head of Eckankar is not evangelising if you don't announce yourself as an eckist, or try to convince him to join Eckankar while doing so

You surely can do that ,but haven't done so because I suspect there's no perfect picture of Harold he drew anywhere. You only added curry and tyme to your father's experience to make it appetizing. That's all.



You have been an eckist for long. You excitedly share Eckankar with others here and maybe offline, but not with your father who has a drawing of the spiritual leader of Eckankar.
Is Eckankar a secret cult and because of that, you don't want to let him know you're part of the group?

You're not making sense.

And how would you know ( if that has not happened already) if in the future your father, would not get to hear about Eckankar or meet with an eckist?
Is he incapacitated or imprisoned somewhere?

Even some illiterates living in the villages, without access to the internet already know about Eckankar.

Continue lying to yourself.

3: You keep hammering on Secular sources, perhaps you can tune into CNN's BBC evening program lol. Why:

I mean it's basic! Where else to study or get information about say Zoroastrianism if not in circles of interest on that particular subject?

If something is true, it must be known to be true everywhere, and not only in Eckankar.

When a truth claim is made by a single scientist or a group of scientists working together, it's always possible to confirm it from other scientists elsewhere to be sure it's actually true.

You said Eckankar is science.

And, Eckankar, according to you knows some 'scientific' truth, but this truth cannot be corraborate from elsewhere. If we try to confirm from another person then, we will no longer know the truth or be misled.

Like an adult trying to mislead a child that something is true,

'Don't tell anyone o! or ask anybody. If you do you will die or they will deceive you.'
'Im the only person who knows the truth. Listen to me alone' Lol.


You have been feeding me with unverified history according to Eckankar, and you want me to swallow it like a religious sheepie without asking questions .

Let's take the Man Peter of the Bible. Do you know where he was born? How old he was? Now, that we do not have sufficient information on Peter, do we now begin to declare that Peter was lie?

You have now ran to the Bible as if what was recorded in the New testament were true history. You're showing desperation here.


Shamus, Rumi and Lai tso, which Paul changed to Lai tsi ,to deceive the public, were never Eckankar masters. Their history is well known and can be verified by anyone to be sure if they were Eck masters in the past, but not so for a Peter in the Bible. The New testament is not an historical document.

So , don't compare those two.

I posted recently the village where Rebazar grew. It's is a an existing geographical location still existent. I will take you serious as not just a tantrum thrower if you could take a trip. You're the one with a problem after all.

Every fictional story usually as it's physical setting which is a real place known to people. It doesn't make the story true. I don't need to travel to Tibet to confirm Eckankar fictional tale. It's foolish to do so

It's like asking me to travel to the Eastern part of Nigeria to confirm if Okonkwo in, Things Fall Apart ,by chinua Achebe, actually existed and once lived there, just because those parts where mentioned in the story.

You're the one who made the claim. So travel there and bring proof that Rebazar Tarz is from Tibet. While there ,make sure you find out who gave birth to him so we can determine is family lineage to confirm if there's such a person
Safe journey whenever you intend to make the trip.

4: The stories Harold shares are experiences of everyday people sent him. I am not sure how he "manufactures" all of that.

I will keep my comments on those to myself. I believe one day you will know the truth. Some eckist know the truth, but choose to remain in Eckankar. It's their choice. The religion is not without its good.

And where did I use the word ,manufacture,. You have come again. The stories were compiled.. I never said manufacture.

Take mine for example. If you had read that or that of my father's (assuming he joins Eckankar), we will still have same result. Is it not you again? I am sure you can't wait for me to go 'convert' my father to Eckankar just so your contrivances will come to pass

You're going round in circles here. I already explained severally how people can have those experiences. So, what are you still talking about?

All the stories you have shared so far involved only single persons sighting the Eck masters. We are yet to see where more than two persons met the Eck masters at the same time. If there's any such story, it still can be explained. But there's none yet.

It's not my business if you convert your father. It doesn't benefit me in any way. This is childish talk coming from you.

I never said everyone who dreams about Eckankar or Eckankar master must surely end up becoming an eckist. Where did I say so?
I said you can dream of something you haven't seen before, and get to see it later. It's your choice or decision if you would want to take further from there. No wonder you have misunderstood me. It's your fault you don't take your time to read me

5: Lol, you didn't say "they generated the thought forms" but you said "she picked up the thought forms". Lol. There is a subject known as 'Semantics' and 'Pragmatics'. Buhari was the one who generated the thoughts I guess.

Always misinterpreting my words.
I said they didn't 'deliberately' generate thoughtforms for her to see and not that they didn't generate thoughtforms. As long as one is alive thoughtforms are generate by the brain, consciously or unconsciously.

You ignore the, word, "deliberately", in my statement, or you don't know the meaning or that?

All these attempts to mislead people to make them believe I said something you assume I said, won't work.

Everyone generates and carries thoughtforms about because we are all thinking beings, and one's predominant thoughts can be picked by others who are sensitive enough.

It doesn't mean people deliberately generates thoughts for others to see.

You don't understand what I explained.

Even neuroscience is gradually confirming how one's thoughts can be seen through modern brain scanners. and you are here talking off point and misquoting me.

6: You know Eckankar for long, that you didn't know that Horses, Cartoons and cartoonish characters and ANY of your wildest imaginations exists as REAL characters in especially the astral speaks volumes of that your "knowledge".

And are we talking about the astra realm here?

See again, you want to confuse me as you usually do.
But you failed again woefully.

Cartoon characters are products of imagination which is only seen in comic books and movies.

It's you who don't fully understand Eckankar teachings on imagination.

Yes, we can't imagine anything that doesn't 'exist' However not everything that we imagine can be manifested in the physical realm the way we imagine it..
There are unshakable physical laws that determines or limits what can be made manifested in the physical plane . You can only suspend those laws temporarily in some instances, but cannot bypass them for long or forever, and that's why it's very laughable to hear Eckankar say a certain Rebazar Tarz is still living in a physical body for more than five hundred years now.

Story for religious sheepie who don't think to swallow.lol

.You assume you understand the teachings very well, when you don't.

You were even like "you don't know am" with due respect, I understand who you are to a fault as far as your romance with Eckankar is concerned!

I was surprised you didn't know that no one can imagine anything outside existence or creation and that imagination isn't really "imagination".

Here we go again with your lies.
Show my where I affirmed that no one can 'imagine anything outside of existence'?

I'm really disappointed that you're know sounding like some members of other religion here who would use anything to defend their religion. Eckankar according to you is science, then demonstrate it for me and stop all these irrelevant talk.

If I don't know much about driving a car or cooking, does it then mean I wouldn't know if somebody is a good driver, or a can cook a delicious meal by eating what they cook ?

You can continue to attack my personality if you think that would proof Eck masters are real or that Pythagoras was an Eck master.

You presented imagination as if it was the "imagination" of the mainstream. From there, I knew you merely window-shopped Eckankar with nothing much made of the spiritual stuff.

People like that often leave disappointed, and I am sorry.

Where again did I present imagination as 'mainstream imagination'?
I just proved that it's you and not me who doesn't fully understand Eckankar teachings on imagination.

I swear you really disappointed me. You're now trolling, something you are not known for, here on this board.

You have no information about my time or association with Eckankar in the past.
I never left in disappointment. I left after knowing the real truth about certain things I was misled to believe, but still very much grateful for the experience and what I learnt.
Eckankar is like a preparatory school and nothing more.
Most of the things they teach you were copied by Paul Twitchell from other places where they are properly taught

I have refrained from saying certain things in order not to set confusion in your mind because you already appear rattled, and now struggling to express yourself clearly . Very much unlike the chieveboy of before.

I still have friends in Eckankar who know the truth but still remain there for their own personal reasons.

Just rest. You can't defend Eckankar. No one can do so successfully without embarrassing themselves Just pick the good from Eckankar and enjoy yourself. That's the only way to go about it.

It's enough.
I won't reply again, unless it's necessary for me to do so.

Thank you.

chieveboy:
1: Okay I agree it was fake. I saw the concocted image of someone in America back in 1992 in a remote part of the world with absolutely no link to my present life at the time who told me and did things that came to pass.

You keep changing what you said before. First you never met or know the person, later it became Gopal Das, and now, it's an American.Was Gopal Das an American?

I am a humble student to your school of hide-and-seek

You're not humble when you refer to yourself as humble. That's pretended humility.

Okay. Watch your self in the next quote




After downplaying dreams earlier as "not real" , you somehow lent them some credit here where they actually "become real" this time even in the quote below.

You misinterpreted my words as usual, not the first time.
I only said cartoon characters appearing in dreams doesn't mean they become real in the waking state. Read it again .

I recall I told you or someone else elsehwere that even the cartoon characters are real. The dream world had been sources of fashion, literature, "fiction" and our techs.

Cartoon characters are real? Really?
You want to blur the lines between fiction and non fiction to create confusion in people's minds so they accept without thinking anything you say is real to be real?
You need to try something else. That won't work with me.
Getting ideas from dreams doesn't mean Harry Potter is real and existing in a physical location we can meet with him.

Good. This is good...here, you're saying dreams show us real people who exist even without us meeting them. I can guess our "higher self" or "soul" meet them in some timeline right?

Let's keep going. You're doing very very well.

I'm doing very well? Almighty Eck master chieveboy who knows it all. Thank you.

It's not only real people we meet in dreams. We also meet cartoon characters or anything not real.Don't forget that too.

Note so far, you said dreams are real, and others that could involve meeting Eck Masters are the exception.

I never said every dream is real. Show me where I said so?
And I also never said dreams with Eck masters are the exception. I said they're the same kind of dreams but different content. You continue to miscontrue my words and this the reason it's better this conversation ends. It's either you're doing this deliberately or find it difficult to understand me. I suspect the former as it's becoming too much.

Dang! You took the word right out of my mouth! But then this is only true if ECK masters are not involved right? We can see all others like our future wives, jobs, timeline but "ECK Masters"? Sam sam!

Here you go again.

Go back to read what I wrote again. I said one can see anything, real and not real, in their dreams and get to experience it later. I never said it's only true if Eck masters are not involved. Show me where I said so?


Also, remember I said in a dream, a statue or an image in a picture can come alive and start talking to us. People can also see parts of a movie they have never seen before and later get to see the full movie later in their waking state.

Are you in anyway suggesting the dream world is now real and the brain replays our experience back to us and we call it "just a dream"? That our scientists are yet to find out that their are other worlds with real people who may look funny to us (like cartoons) and we go there in our dreams and our brain due to our background fail to fully present these things?

I never talk of any dream world. I only said when we sleep whatever our unconscious perceives during that period is relayed to the brain for storage. Dreams scenery and imageries are created from the impressions we receive during this time.

Yes, in the context of a dream certain things becomes real to us, but when we wake up and realise we were dreaming, we no longer regard them as real. Cartoons characters can become real in dreams, but not real in the waking state because they don't exist in a material form we can physically meet with. Have you ever met with a real spider man who flies and rescues people in times of emergency? No, you haven't,

Could what I said earlier that creators of our cartoons are merely relaying what they saw in the so-called 'dream worlds"? Well it's possible if there are no Eck masters there.

Where is the location of the dream world?
The Eck masters like cartoon characters are products of imagination. They don't yet exist materially. At best they only exist as phantom beings which some people can see.

You should also realise that every cartoon character is not from dreams. People sometimes create then using their imagination in full waking consciousness.

Wow. We might say even if people with a beef with eckankar do not think or proven that Eck Masters have existed since before time existed?

You're vague here.

'people with a beef with Eckankar do not think or proven that Eck masters have existed since before time existed? What are trying to say here?

I believe you omitted something which has made what you wrote difficult to understand.

A'a, let me get something here. You're the one who said people get to meet people they will meet in the future in their dreams, say a wife. So if I met a wife in a dream at the age of 6 for instance and later meet her 20 years later, are you saying she was fake too?

How can she be fake.
You met with a physical person you later married You see them everyday after that time. Except in movies or magazines, you don't get to meet cartoon characters you saw in a dream just like you do with wife. You deliberately removed carton characters in this instance to confuse me.

Let's grant your wish and say Gopal Das a whole abbot of a School in the capital of the astral plane whom diverse others meet in person and via Soul travel or dream was fake.

Just look at what you're trying to do here.

The physical realm where people meet their wives and your astral realm where people meet your Gopal Das are not the same kind of place.
The comparison is inappropriate. Try another.

My dad who met Harold and still haven't met him or even knew Harold was real to this day, can you give us some of that wisdom on this please? Does this mean my dad will join Eckankar or something? If he joins, will his dream be that of a meeting with Harold which he saw before it happened?

You're a strange fella. Your father met with Harold in a dream and till today he doesn't know if Harold is real?

What is stopping you as an eckist from telling him who Harold is?
You want me to do that on your behalf?

You can see that the story about your father meeting with Harold doesn't make sense.

Maybe he told you a white man appeared to him a dream and you just concluded it was Harold. You know the truth but just want to imagine it's Harold.
If the story is true, your father doesn't need to meet with Harold physically. He can in the future, if that has not happened already, see his photograph hanging somewhere, and then remembers it is the person he saw in a dream. Or may not even recognize he is the same person.

Note Harold can't travel, my dad can't travel either so they can't meet physically. Shy did he have the dream? Harold is the Living Eck Master.

I'm afraid your story is not adding up. You earlier said your father doesn't know the identity of person he met in a dream.
Now, he dreamt Harold is the living Eck master.

As for meeting with Harold physically,it doesn't need to happen because he dreamt about him.

Football fans sometimes dream of their favourite player scoring a spectacular goal, and don't need to be present physically in a stadium for the dream event to happen or see it. They may not watch the live match when it happens, but watch a replay or even see the picture of the player scoring the goal just like in their dream.



If your dad already know about Harold as the Mahanta in a dream, why do you want us to believe he has still not heard of Eckankar all his life?

And you're an eckist. So your father doesn't know about the religion his son is part of?

She actually is a neophyte still. She is that big spiritual right? Let's go on.

Neophyte is a word used in some spiritual circles to describe those considered ignorant or just starting. But this description is misleading. What people say, do and can be aware of is what actually reveals their state of consciousness and not because they're not members of Eckankar

There are some children operating from a higher level of awareness, and this is seen from the things they do and say which their peers are incapable of.

The word Neophyte is for power and control within certain groups.No true master would refer to anyone as Neophyte. They know better.

I never said my friend's wife is big spiritually whatever you mean my that.

You're speaking from the position of power.

ECKists again believe nothing and prove everything.

Talk is cheap. You have proven to be a believer and nothing else. I asked for proof, but you have been sharing stories which you have been made to believe are true. Morever, you haven't provided any outside sources to confirm if Shamus and Rumi had anything to do with Eckankar in the past, yet you say you don't believe.

She was so grand as to be able to see "illusory thought forms", she didn't catch the one that "misled" her to an Eck center to see other "phantoms"...I suppose she would have known these guys are fake or perhaps she needs plenty more people to generate the thoughts so her "eyes" could see them?

She never claimed to be 'grand' or boasted she has any special powers. She only reported what she experienced while there.
Morever it was her husband who took her there for the first time. She never went there on her own. So keep your talk of 'misled' to yourself. This comment of yours, as once more confirmed you're not taking your time to read me. Her husband was the exist that took her there.

Yes the masters come to Eck centers, and even work with many others who do not know of the term "eckankar". Just like my dad, the soldier in the earlier story which your avoided and countless other humans and animals.

Not only Eck masters, anything else including the thoughtforms people carry about.

The stories you said I avoided are unverified, except by your master whom you respect, and that I know is the reason you don't question anything.

A lie you portrayed was that Eckists generated the masters via their believes for your friend's wife to see. Eckists on the other hand focus to see the light via their pineal gland.

I never said they generated the masters for her to see. What's wrong with you!
I said eckist believe the masters are always present especially when the hu is sung. And that's not a lie.

I said she pick on the thoughtforms in that environment. Nothing
was deliberately directed to her.

Your wife's friend how ever never saw Jesus the epicenter of all church or the Holy Spirit who is ALWAYS invited to church service. Note that you suggested she saw from the psychich realms, so that she never saw Jesus isn't no excuse, she was not looking into the physical as you put it. Not even "holyghost fire".

What do you know about this person to know she has not seen or experienced Jesus or the holy spirit?

I never categorically stated she's pyschic. I only said instead of your calling her a Neophyte, it's better to refer to her has pyschic since she's sentitive enough to perceive those kind of things. It was my own suggested description of her, but you're now running away with that.
SMH

She had never seen these strong thought forms. Infact, she most likely had never seen any thought form in her life only in the case of the ECK masters. Kindly dial her phone on this quickly please.

I ask again, what do you know about the person you have never met before.

Your psychological gimmick won't work.You want me to to call her about something that happened more that 15years ago. What for?

Her husband who was an eckist then ,at the moment doesn't want to ever hear of Eckankar again. And you want me to call her?

Besides she's not the only person I know that has shared that kind of experience. Some were even eckist, but they have left the path after knowing the truth about such experiences.

Lol, you really have a beef with Eckankar. When Zadok for instance the Eck Master in the times of Jesus was around, I suppose you expected "Eckankar" is what the science is called?

What beef?

You're pathetically now sounding like Christians who often like to accuse non believers of hating God. Lol

My friend your guilt tripping is dead on arrival.
Zadok the Eck master in the time of Jesus who also taught him? Another Eckankar fictional tale. Lol

What secular sources confirms that there was an Eck master called zadok who taught Jesus?
Later ,you will boast you confirm things for yourself and don't believe like others.

The problem of little or half knowledge. You indeed went to Eck centers yet didn't care to learn the basics. I told you earlier Eckankar was a science. You wouldn't have that and insisted it was a religion. I told you why it was registered as "religion" but no, that would 'exonorate' it from the hold of your bias.

If only you knew the person you discussing with right now, you would not say the above.

I know Eckankar is not like the normal everyday rellgion, but that doesn't make it objective science.
I knew of Eckankar when there was nothing like Eck worship service. So what are you talking about. You don't know me at all.

I need to see the look in your face right now after telling you the famous Pythagoras was an Eck Master also lol. I guess you will throw yet another tantrum.

You failed woefully. I only pity you here. Pythagoras was never an Eck master. Eckankar only made you believe that. It's the same elsewhere. Amorc, also tell their members that Pythagoras and others were once Rosicrucians in the past.

ECK means the 'Light and Sound of God' or whatever name you feel is right for it. In Shamus, they call it "Bani" or the celestial music.

"Ankar" means "the way" or "path". This is very basic fact you would have chosen to grasp in your romance with Eckankar.

The above is meaningless. I can choose to parody it for you to see how.

' Yamayama' means the light and sound of God or whatever name you feel is right for it'

First of all, prove that what you're talking about exist or is real before trying to describe it.

And what are the 'basic facts' in Eckankar you think I don't know

"Eckankar" hence is a science around the ways of contacting and working with this force consciously. The science needs to fall under an umbrella under USA laws and had to be a for-profit or non-profit. It was registered as the former and then later as the later.

Registered as pseudoscience, you mean?

It was presented in diverse of ways according to the conciousnes of the people relative to their time. As Zoroastrianism, parts of Buddhism, parts of Christianity, parts of Islam etc. The recurrent theme is ALWAYS the Light and the Sound! The masters give it out and withdraw the teaching and science accordingly.

If it gets mixed up with cultures and unnecessary rituals and beliefs, someone like a Paul Twichell is given the task to remove these socio-cultural and religious trappings mixed into what's supposed to be a pure non-religious science who then reintroduce it again alif the consciousness of the day is ready for the teaching or science.

You are on a vahana,lol, connecting Buddhism , Christianity and others with Eckankar.

The gist about the ECK Master Shamus:

'Eckankar' is a set of teaching around the subject of the Holy Spirit which Shamus was known for. Basically Eckankar and Sufism teaches you that this force is seen as light and heard as Sound.

Shamus taught about the Light and sound of God. His student Rumi spoke of this force or "sound" in many occasions in his poems also. This is "Eckankar"!!! Even if taught in a church!

ECKANKAR simply means "Science of the Holy Spirit" I don't know your beef... An Eck Master means a "Master of the Holy Spirit". As you know, humans can only create a religion of it but it can't be a religion. Physics is a branch of this science.

Na wah. Physics is now a branch of Eckankar.

His branch of Islam (Sufism) deals purely with the spiritual or "Ihsan".

There are three levels of islam vis: Islam, Iman and Ihsan. Someone who has Islam is a 'Muslim'. Someone who has Iman is 'Muh'min' (Faith, believer). Someone who has Ihsan is a Muhsin.

Ihsan means 'spiritual perfection'. You study Ihsan with 'tasawwuf' or "inner transformation". In other words sufism is mysticism under the umbrella of Islam. Note that mysticism like Eckankar is no religion regardless of the religious umbrella.

They practice the 'zikr' (repeating of the spiritually charged words) like HU, the 99 names of Allah and do the 'dervish dance' to go into altered states of consciousness or Soul Travel. Shamus not only reached the God-realized state (Eck Mastership) he is also the keeper of a portion of the 'Shariat ki Sugmas' the Holy book of Eckankar.

So do hate the organization (Eckankar), but then Eckankar is not an Organization. Paul has to do this for the books as I have told you severaly.

'HolySpiritAnkar' and HolyspiritMasters exist even in Nigeria and other planets. Francis of Assisi still comes physically to Eck Centers and disappears. There is nothing we can do about it.

Normal talk one regularly hears from eckist. Nobody hates Eckankar. Just tell people the whole truth, and let people decide whether to join or not. Eckankar is not a perfect religion. It also contains lies and deception like every other path or religion out there

I figured you loved your contrarian candy, so...



A'a, even "holyghost fire" they don't see? What of the "blood of Jesus" they cover themselves with. I think that one should be visible even to our aunty that you'll call later to confirm something for us given the context of use and significance.



Earlier you rubbished what our aunty saw as "phantoms that come and go" now she is "someone with higher consciousness" or "psychic", but who could not distinguish phantoms from real stuff? Do you know what a psychic is?

FYI, I don't subscribe to holy ghost fire .

And now, afraid you're no longer coherent.

It's my description of her. There may be other explanations. But you haven't come up with anything reasonable.

You tried to mislead people earlier that Eckists combined to 'beam off' images of masters they're "fed to believe" and your "psychic" woman here was able to see them. A psychic would see how a charade organizes itself too because it's hard to hide things from that perspective.

Any lie to uphold your beef.

You're pathetic and an embarrassment to other eckist I know. Where did I say the eckist conspire to beam off images so she could see them?

Just look at you. SMH.

Pyschic in the context I used it, mean being sensitive enough in that instance to perceive what was happening unconsciously. I never said she posses pyschic powers. The real meaning of a word is determined by the context which it is used.

chieveboy:
1: Okay I agree it was fake. I saw the concocted image of someone in America back in 1992 in a remote part of the world with absolutely no link to my present life at the time who told me and did things that came to pass.

I am a humble student to your school of hide-and-seek




Okay. Watch your self in the next quote




After downplaying dreams earlier as "not real" , you somehow lent them some credit here where they actually "become real" this time even in the quote below.

I recall I told you or someone else elsehwere that even the cartoon characters are real. The dream world had been sources of fashion, literature, "fiction" and our techs.



Good. This is good...here, you're saying dreams show us real people who exist even without us meeting them. I can guess our "higher self" or "soul" meet them in some timeline right?

Let's keep going. You're doing very very well.

Note so far, you said dreams are real, and others that could involve meeting Eck Masters are the exception.




Dang! You took the word right out of my mouth! But then this is only true if ECK masters are not involved right? We can see all others like our future wives, jobs, timeline but "ECK Masters"? Sam sam!




Are you in anyway suggesting the dream world is now real and the brain replays our experience back to us and we call it "just a dream"? That our scientists are yet to find out that their are other worlds with real people who may look funny to us (like cartoons) and we go there in our dreams and our brain due to our background fail to fully present these things?

Could what I said earlier that creators of our cartoons are merely relaying what they saw in the so-called 'dream worlds"? Well it's possible if there are no Eck masters there.





Wow. We might say even if people with a beef with eckankar do not think or proven that Eck Masters have existed since before time existed?





A'a, let me get something here. You're the one who said people get to meet people they will meet in the future in their dreams, say a wife. So if I met a wife in a dream at the age of 6 for instance and later meet her 20 years later, are you saying she was fake too?

Let's grant your wish and say Gopal Das a whole abbot of a School in the capital of the astral plane whom diverse others meet in person and via Soul travel or dream was fake.

My dad who met Harold and still haven't met him or even knew Harold was real to this day, can you give us some of that wisdom on this please? Does this mean my dad will join Eckankar or something? If he joins, willhis dream be that of a meeting with Harold which he saw before it happened?

Note Harold can't travel, my dad can't travel either so they can't meet physically. Shy did he have the dream? Harold is the Living Eck Master.

She actually is a neophyte still. She is that big spiritual right? Let's go on.



ECKists again believe nothing and prove everything.

She was so grand as to be able to see "illusory thought forms", she didn't catch the one that "misled" her to an Eck center to see other "phantoms"...I suppose she would have known these guys are fake or perhaps she needs plenty more people to generate the thoughts so her "eyes" could see them?

Yes the masters come to Eck centers, and even work with many others who do not know of the term "eckankar". Just like my dad, the soldier in the earlier story which your avoided and countless other humans and animals.

A lie you portrayed was that Eckists generated the masters via their believes for your friend's wife to see. Eckists on the other hand focus to see the light via their pineal gland.

Your wife's friend how ever never saw Jesus the epicenter of all church or the Holy Spirit who is ALWAYS invited to church service. Note that you suggested she saw from the psychich realms, so that she never saw Jesus isn't no excuse, she was not looking into the physical as you put it. Not even "holyghost fire".

She had never seen these strong thought forms. Infact, she most likely had never seen any thought form in her life only in the case of the ECK masters. Kindly dial her phone on this quickly please.



Lol, you really have a beef with Eckankar. When Zadok for instance the Eck Master in the times of Jesus was around, I suppose you expected "Eckankar" is what the science is called?

The problem of little or half knowledge. You indeed went to Eck centers yet didn't care to learn the basics. I told you earlier Eckankar was a science. You wouldn't have that and insisted it was a religion. I told you why it was registered as "religion" but no, that would 'exonorate' it from the hold of your bias.

I need to see the look in your face right now after telling you the famous Pythagoras was an Eck Master also lol. I guess you will throw yet another tantrum.

ECK means the 'Light and Sound of God' or whatever name you feel is right for it. In Shamus, they call it "Bani" or the celestial music.

"Ankar" means "the way" or "path". This is very basic fact you would have chosen to grasp in your romance with Eckankar.

"Eckankar" hence is a science around the ways of contacting and working with this force consciously. The science needs to fall under an umbrella under USA laws and had to be a for-profit or non-profit. It was registered as the former and then later as the later.

It was presented in diverse of ways according to the conciousnes of the people relative to their time. As Zoroastrianism, parts of Buddhism, parts of Christianity, parts of Islam etc. The recurrent theme is ALWAYS the Light and the Sound! The masters give it out and withdraw the teaching and science accordingly.

If it gets mixed up with cultures and unnecessary rituals and beliefs, someone like a Paul Twichell is given the task to remove these socio-cultural and religious trappings mixed into what's supposed to be a pure non-religious science who then reintroduce it again alif the consciousness of the day is ready for the teaching or science.


The gist about the ECK Master Shamus:

'Eckankar' is a set of teaching around the subject of the Holy Spirit which Shamus was known for. Basically Eckankar and Sufism teaches you that this force is seen as light and heard as Sound.

Shamus taught about the Light and sound of God. His student Rumi spoke of this force or "sound" in many occasions in his poems also. This is "Eckankar"!!! Even if taught in a church!

ECKANKAR simply means "Science of the Holy Spirit" I don't know your beef... An Eck Master means a "Master of the Holy Spirit". As you know, humans can only create a religion of it but it can't be a religion. Physics is a branch of this science.

His branch of Islam (Sufism) deals purely with the spiritual or "Ihsan".

There are three levels of islam vis: Islam, Iman and Ihsan. Someone who has Islam is a 'Muslim'. Someone who has Iman is 'Muh'min' (Faith, believer). Someone who has Ihsan is a Muhsin.

Ihsan means 'spiritual perfection'. You study Ihsan with 'tasawwuf' or "inner transformation". In other words sufism is mysticism under the umbrella of Islam. Note that mysticism like Eckankar is no religion regardless of the religious umbrella.

They practice the 'zikr' (repeating of the spiritually charged words) like HU, the 99 names of Allah and do the 'dervish dance' to go into altered states of consciousness or Soul Travel. Shamus not only reached the God-realized state (Eck Mastership) he is also the keeper of a portion of the 'Shariat ki Sugmas' the Holy book of Eckankar.

So do hate the organization (Eckankar), but then Eckankar is not an Organization. Paul has to do this for the books as I have told you severaly.

'HolySpiritAnkar' and HolyspiritMasters exist even in Nigeria and other planets. Francis of Assisi still comes physically to Eck Centers and disappears. There is nothing we can do about it.





I figured you loved your contrarian candy, so...



A'a, even "holyghost fire" they don't see? What of the "blood of Jesus" they cover themselves with. I think that one should be visible even to our aunty that you'll call later to confirm something for us given the context of use and significance.



Earlier you rubbished what our aunty saw as "phantoms that come and go" now she is "someone with higher consciousness" or "psychic", but who could not distinguish phantoms from real stuff? Do you know what a psychic is?

You tried to mislead people earlier that Eckists combined to 'beam off' images of masters they're "fed to believe" and your "psychic" woman here was able to see them. A psychic would see how a charade organizes itself too because it's hard to hide things from that perspective.

Any lie to uphold your beef.

.



After I read how you tried hard to downplay my experience and those of others I posted here with the Eck Masters, I saw you will go any length.

You can counter what I have explained without all these unnecessary emotional reaction.



What length will I go to? You're imagining things and want to project it ion me.

I haven't downplayed anything. I only said it the way it's. The difference between your dream and those of others is the content. If precognitive dreams only involved Eck masters, then we can begin to really look at it as something special

But they don't.So how is that downplaying anything.

The stories you have shared so far only contains single individuals, either in public or private claiming to have met with the Eck masters. The encounter that happened in public appear ivery doubtful .

How is it possible for only one person amomgs a crowd of people to sight a strange being without anyone else taking notice?

I noticed you modified your reply.

Please provide secular sources for what you're explaining concerning Shamus so one can corraborate them as true. I don't need history according to Eckankar alone.

This is the era of the internet. A little Google search will expose you to how Paul associated past historical figures with the religion he founded in the 60s and how he also invented the others Eck masters like Rebazar Tarz and the others.
This is the main thing if you want the know the truth. What beef? You're the one already beefing me through some of your comments.

I have said enough.

chieveboy:
Can you cut to the chase and tell me how Paul Twitchel manufactured the ECK master Gopal Das who I met in my dream as a Sunday-school-going kid?

I hope you take your time to read what I will explain below. Your replies are showing you don't take your time to read me before replying.

The dream you had as a kid is not proof that what you dreamt of is real. Children sometimes dream of cartoon characters, such as spider man, incredible hulk or even Santa Claus, and it doesn't mean they're real. In a dream anything could happen. A statue or something existing in a painting can come alive an start talking to us

And it's also not uncommon for some people to dream of something they have never seen before, and which they get to experience , days ,weeks or years after in the waking state.

Some individuals have met with their future wife in a dream before they later get to meet and marry them in the waking state. For others, it could be anything, the job they're currently doing, where they now live , parts of a movie they have never watched ,or a painting they have never seen. I myself have had such dreams countless times in the past.


The reason people have those kind of dreams, popularly known as precognitive dream, is that one's higher self, the real being, also referred to as soul or the unconscious mind by others, has the capability to perceive things before they happen . Soul or the unconscious mind, can perceive the future in the present moment.

What the higher self perceive, from its point of view is what the brain then records and play back to us as dream while we sleep. I accept that this explantation doesn't find full scientific support at the moment, and the reason is because scientists are yet to localise the unconscious mind to any part of the visible human brain in order to understand fully how it works so as to be able to rationally explain such dreams.

Even when science is not yet certain of the cause, the fact remains that people have such dreams.

Unfortunately, this natural occuring phenomenon is what Eckankar is now using to make its members and non members believe such precognitive dreams holds huge spiritual significance and are proof that some of the Eck masters which Paul created are real and can also appear to people in their dreams. Nothing could be further from the truth.
You only had a dream in the past which revealed to your mind what you're currently doing . You're a now an eckist. The dream doesn't proof anything other than that,and It's your choice if you want to see it as spiritual.

I like how your Christian friend saw Paul's-invented ECK Masters as a neophyte ( Someone who hadn't been brain-washes to see fake things as real).

To you she's a neophyte, but might actually be someone with a higher state of consciousness having the ability to perceive other people's thoughts or imaginative invention ( the Eck masters). What she saw where phantom beings and it was why they appeared and disappeared each time the hu was sung. Real people don't appear and disappear.

Eckist have been made to believe that the masters would appear reach time they sing hu, and those thoughtforms was what she experienced while in the midst of those eckist who sang hu in that meeting. After that occasion she never had that kind of experience again , confirming it was what was going on then in that environment that led to that illusory experience.

Shamus I Tabriz is another Master I told you is popular in Iran. He even has a Wikipedia page and statue built in Iran. How did Paul Twitchel do it?

Shamus had nothing to do with Eckankar .He was an Islamic scholar when he was alive. There's no single evidence outside of Eckankar to prove he served has an Eck master or teach anything that has to do with Eckankar .That Shamus served as an Eck master was Paul's own fake version of history he superimposed on a well known figure who lived in the past in order give Eckankar an impressive historical past to make it appealing to those who would like to join the new religion he was trying establish in the 60s .People prefer what has been existing before to what is just starting now. That's the trick and that was why he associated Shamus ànd other prominent individuals who lived before with Eckankar. Other new age religion like Eckankar and some esoteric groups in the past or present have also done the same thing Paul did. So it's a well known method for setting up a new religion or any other similar organisation.

. Eckist are the only ones who have accepted Paul's fake version of history to be true because they believe a representative of God cannot lie. But Paul lied. That's the painful truth. Masters are also not above deception.

If you can bring Just one evidence from an outside source , not Eckankar, which confirms beyond reasonable doubt ,that Shamus ànd Rumi to be followers of Eck or Eckankar in the past, then I will believe you.
The Wikipedia page discussing Shamus didn't reveal anything about his association with Eckankar or Eck.So why sharing that link?

Have you heard of Francis of Assisi? That one is popular with the Catholics. He is a Master as well. Hello Paul...?

Sheik Bayazid Bastami is another Master popular in Iran. Paul...?

The same as Shamus. Francis of Assisi and Bastami had nothing at all to do with Eck or Eckankar as a religion when they're were alive. Paul claimed that, but it's not true.
If you insist, then bring evidence from outside of Eckankar that they did and I stop arguing this.

And where are the Catholic priest or any other Catholics on Nairaland. An eckist says Francis of Assisi had something to do with Eckankar in the past. Is that true?

I think to end this, let's just agree to your logic that everyone else who met them was crazy and mental, or they have very strong faith and believe in the ECK masters like your Christian friend's wife.

You're being dishonest here and now reacting emotionally . It's a shame that you deliberately left out some of the more important reasons I gave why some people see those phantom Eck masters in the dream or the waking state.


I never for once mentioned or even suggested mental problem as the cause. I explained that some individuals are open to seeing what others are imagining or have imagined and it's not because they have mental problem.

Most christians don't expect or believe they would see Jesus physically, unlike eckist who expects that it's possible to see an eckist master in that way. Morever one's expectations, whether conscious or unconscious, can make one have certain experiences which they may not be able to explain rationally.

What do you know about what goes on in people's consciousness especially at the unconscious level?



And I never said my friend's wife believe or had any faith in Eckankar. I only suggested she's open to seeing things like that. You can describe her as pyschic . If you like and not call her neophyte. She may be higher than you in consciousness and not yet realised it in this lifetime.



I think is better to end this at this point because this is not the first time you have tried to miscontrue my words or try to link me with things I never had in mind. Morever it's now my word against that of your spiritual leader ,Harold klemp, whose book on the reality of the Eck masters you have been serialising here. He says Eck masters are real .So with that, why should I expect you to believe or listen to anything I, who you also may have dismissed in your mind as a neophyte, have to say concerning the Eck master of your religion. I'm wasting my time.

Thanks for your time and,

Good afternoon.

chieveboy:
The boldened really cracked me up. After Muslims, I think Christians would arguably come second when it comes to belief in their saviors.

Of course, Muslims take their religion more seriously than christiains do theirs.[/quote]

Eckists on the contrary don't do blind beliefs. I have told you this severally.


They rather confirm things for themselves. Eckists know and not belief. As you confirmed, there is a difference when someone beliefs what they not have personal experience..

True believers are never aware that what they believe in is not real or true, and this why it's not uncommon to hear them talk almost exactly the same way you have talked.

You often hear some Christians announcing that Jesus is real because they have a personal relationship with him.

Believers elsewhere also rely on personal experiences as proof that their religion is real.

But unfortunately, personal experiences within religious circles are not enough for determining truth because ones mind can be easily tricked into experiencing an illusion as if real.

And this usually happens to those whose minds are susceptible to experiencing such delusions or fantasy.


There's enough evidence out there if you're interested in knowing the truth, that Paul Twitchell at the beginning actually created the Eck masters which some persons have been experiencing as real beings. Shamus , Lai tsi, originally Laozi, and others where real individuals in history which Paul had superimposed his fake version of history on in order to create the impression that Eckankar is not something new but had been existing in the past. Some other religion and esoteric groups have also done the same thing . .

So for somebody like me who's aware of all of these,, there's nothing that can convince me otherwise that those Eck masters are real.

However, I would like to say that inspite of this obvious deception in the rellgion , Eckankar still has something to offer its members or anyone else interested following the part. I can attest to this from what I know personally about the religion.

Heck more Eckists have met the departed Jesus than his supposed followers. Eckist use the tools which everyone else is scared to use.

The so called meeting with departed Jesus is an illusory experience brought on by the 'tools' those eckist are using.

I am not sure where you get the idea that the man believed and and so he had an experience from "how the mind works". If anything, his response was that of someone who didn't have the slightest idea. That's if you understand what you read.

I don't think you understand very well some of the truths your religion teaches despite some of the obvious deceptions it contains. I will remind you;

Thoughts coupled with strong emotions are the tools for creating effects in the lower world's . If you don't know how to protect your mind you can be easily drawn in to experiencing the good and the bad which others anywhere in the world have created using their imaginative faculty.

Your Mahanta, in one of his books I have read, understands very well how this works, hence he strongly advise eckist to avoid people and places where black magic is practiced so they don't get drawn' into experiencing the illusory negative mental creation of others that can wreck havoc in one's mind.

But what happens to those who not fully aware of what goes on in the environment in which they live in? I'm sure you can guess the answer?

I am posting next the experience of a Nairalander with the Eck Masters.

You free to post them maybe for others but not me. I had once read a book written by an eckist, Phil moritmusu, not sure if I got that name correctly, it was long time ago, about his encounter with the Eck masters.

And even, my friend's wife who's a Christian and still is, once shared a story of how Eck masters kept appearing , disappearing, and moving about in parlour where an Eck meeting she attended with her husband ,who at that time was an eckist, was being held.
According to her, each time the eckist in the meeting closed their eyes to sing the Hu the masters will appear and start to move around. She saw them because she didn't not close her eyes or join in the singing.

If there's anything that would convince me it was her experience. I know her very well to know she's not the kind of person to conjure anything that never happened.
But, I know better now, and my friend, her husband, is no more an eckist.

I am actually watching the game too and Arsenal are doing well

The coach made the team drop two points. Fear of losing the match actually made the team lost. Second half they were afraid to play.

chieveboy:
You asked of it and I gave you. Earlier, you believe no one had met him except in dreams.


I have never heard of someone in Christianity saying they met Jesus physically on earth as in the story above after his departure. Be sincere please.

I said those can be rationally explained. If you read the story again, you would find clues of what caused the lady to have that experience, but you may not be able to link them yourself to understand what happened.

And , how can we tell she didn't meet with someone who fits almost exactly the description of Tarz?. She read a book which contains the story of an encounter with Tarz and later met with someone that fits the description. Why not before that time?

The mind is involved, and that's all I can tell you for now. Don't want to go further than this. I have once had
an experience similar to that untill I later understood what happened. The human mind is very powerful.

There's a reason why Christians hardly have those kind of 'physical encounter' with Jesus. About 99 percent of Christians cannot muster the amount of belief needed for that to happen. They don't really believe in Jesus, but think they do.
Eckist , from what I know and seen by interacting with them, have stronger and powerful beliefs in their religion as compared to Christians. And one can be drawn into this and influenced by it if one get close enough for that to happen. The lady in the story is friends to eckist.

Amomgs members of certain religious groups from the Eastern part of the world that shares almost the same teachings and beliefs as Eckankar, this kind of experiences are not uncommon.

Later. Let me go and watch my team Arsenal .[/quote]

chieveboy:
A Meeting with an ECK Master (Rebazar Tarzs)[size=9pt][/size]
By DF

One evening while a friend and I stowed away in her bedroom to confide in one another away from her children, our light conversation turned to serious philosophical matters. We opened our hearts and divulged many secret thoughts and goals. One of mine, I told her, was to experience grace—whatever that truly meant.

She smiled and leaned across her bed to pull a book from the shelf. As she handed it to me, I remember feeling as if the exchange was taking place in slow motion.

The words on the cover sank into my heart: The Flute of God by Paul Twitchell.

She didn't say much except that the book was written by the man who founded a teaching called Eckankar. He was a spiritual master she had met once in a dream. She also said she had read the book no less than twenty times over the years, and each time she read it, its words ran deeper and more profound.

As soon as I got home, I opened the book. Each paragraph was so meaningful and so right; I would reread them two, three, and four times. It was less that I was learning something and more that the book confirmed what I'd always thought, felt, and known to be true. I must have exclaimed, "Yes!" out loud a hundred times in the first few days of poring over that little book.

During my twelve-hour workdays not much else was on my mind except The Flute of God. In the third week after receiving this spiritual gift, something extraordinary happened.

It was 7:00 a.m., and I was standing on a New York subway platform. I hoped to get a seat on the train so I could read in comfort all the way to Wall Street. I jumped on the subway and saw one seat. But I decided to relinquish it to another person who was competing for it and opted instead to lean against the dirty end-door of the car.

Once under way, I wedged my briefcase between my feet and pulled out my treasured Flute of God.

Several minutes later, I looked up for no particular reason. I found myself staring directly into the eyes of a man standing two feet in front of me. At that moment time ceased to exist.

Gazing into his eyes, I was engulfed by all-consuming love. I cannot describe the feeling. It was actually far more than a feeling. It was a knowing, deep and complete. I felt as if I'd come home. Perceptions were passed to me, all truths of some kind, but I couldn't articulate them to another person because they could not be separated into thoughts. There was a wholeness about this knowing.

The next moment was overwhelming. I became aware that we shared a bond in an all-consuming love that was unspeakably deep.

That scared me, and instantly I was back on the subway—staring at a stranger. I must be out of my mind for staring back at this guy, I thought. He's probably some kind of weirdo. I tore my gaze away, noticing that I was physically very warm. But I had an overwhelming urge to return to his eyes, so I glanced back up.

Again, perceptions flowed quickly before I tore myself away. I settled for looking at his hand instead, which rested on the handrail overhead. He had grasped the handrail of the subway car to steady himself.

When I felt I could take no more, I said so. Bending my head low, staring into The Flute of God, I said inside myself, "Look, I can't take this anymore, please go. And please don't go suddenly, because if I look up and you aren't there and the subway hasn't even stopped to let you off like a normal person, I'll really freak out. So I'll wait until the next stop, and when the subway doors have opened giving you time to leave, I'll look up."

So I waited. And when the subway doors had opened and began to close again I looked up. He was gone.

Later that evening I met my friend who'd given me the book and her daughter. The first thing I said to them was, "You guys! I met someone today. I mean I really met someone today."

They looked at me curiously and somehow grasped what I meant. (They'd been members of Eckankar for years, though I didn't know it at the time.) The first question the daughter asked me was, "What did he look like?"

Look like? I hadn't thought about it. Stumbling, I told her he looked Indian. Not American Indian but like someone from India. His skin was a deep tan color. And as I thought about it, his presence had been almost too vivid, like in a dream. He had a dark black beard, but it was cropped really close to his face, giving a clean-cut impression.

The daughter got all excited and impatiently asked me what he was wearing. Again, I had to think. "Well, you know it's strange; he wore a three-piece suit. It had a vest (an outdated style), and the color was odd too. It was a dark red or maroon and seemed to be made of a heavy wool."

At this, both of my friends became highly excited. The daughter was yelling, "You met Rebazar Tarzs!" Rebazar who? I had no idea who they were talking about. (Even though I'd seen the name in The Flute of God, I had mispronounced it.) But I knew I'd met a spiritual teacher of some kind.

When she said, "Rebazar Tarzs" aloud, my whole being was shaken to the core.

They asked if there was anything else about him, and I said that the most important feature was his eyes. They were a deep chocolate brown, and his gaze was so intense it was indescribable.

At that, the daughter said I had to go to their house that night, to look at some pictures she had of the ECK Masters.

It would be two hours before we could leave for their house due to a meeting we were hosting. I felt elated and scared. I was sad that I hadn't shown this being more respect somehow, and I walked around thanking him inwardly a hundred times for taking the time to visit me. I knew that it was the most real thing that had ever happened to me.

Later that evening I stood in my friend's house looking through her pictures of ECK Masters. We came across a black-and-white sketch of a man I instantly identified as the person I'd met on the subway.

She smiled and said, "Yes, that is Rebazar Tarzs."

Excerpted from the 1997 Eckankar Journal, copyright © 1996 ECKANKAR. All rights reserved.

Cc triplechoice

Christians have shared similar stories of meeting with Jesus. So, it's not unexpected that we find the same in Eckankar or any other religion.

I will tell you two things,
1. These stories are unverified
2. These personal experiences of meeting with Jesus or Eck masters can be rationally explained.


Now, the only thing I would like to tell you so we don't continue to drag this, is for you to stick with your religion if you think it's working for you

I know ' a little bit' about Eckankar to know that it contains teachings and practices that are extraordinary helpful to its members or anyone who tries them, but that is not to say it doesn't also contain............