₦airaland Forum

Karma is real, but not as it's understood or described in most rellgion.

Karma simply means the consequences,. not punishment, arising. from one's physical and mental activity.

There's no higher power or gods that dole out karma to anyone.

Everyone is responsible for his or her karma.
You reap what you sow ,whether good or bad

Nobody can take away one's karma or bear it for you. Religious people are misled into thinking another person can take away their sin or karma. It's not true, but a lie used for converting people

If you do something you experience the consequences yourself, if you don't do anything you also suffer the consequences if not doing anything yourself.

If you dwell on negative thoughts all the time, it won't be long before depression sets in. On the other hand,If you dwell on positive thoughts all the time,you also reap the benefits in the form of good mood, or happy feelings.

If you eat garlic and onions for some days and don't brush your mouth, the consequence is people not wanting to get close to you. If you deliberately offend another person all the time, it won't be long before the person start resenting you. You reap friendship or positive response when you do good to others.

The, depression, good mood, avoidance, friendship, and resentment are all karmic consequences that has come from some actions taken in the past. This is how karma works. It's not punishment from any God

However, most people only focus on the negative aspect of karma, without being aware that people also reap the good they have sown too, which helps to balance out bad karma and make it possible they don't get overwhelmed by it.

Nobody is completely bad and no one is completely good. The politicians some people use as excuse to dismiss the principle of karma are people who may have sown positive karma, which helps to balance out their negative karma. Too much of everything is bad. That's what they say.

Those who struggle to see the connection between the things they do and the consequences that naturally follow are for the most part operating from a very low level of awareness. They're not fully conscious of what's going on around them, hence they dismiss the principle of karma.

Karma is a fact of life.

MaxInDHouse:
So you know JWs do assist non-jws, shey?

That makes your comment useless because i never said JWs don't help non-jws!

If JW can assist non members, then why are you still mocking someone who openly asked for help here a very long time ago?

Is he still asking you or anyone else for help after that time?

Did he specifically ask for help from you and JW members alone?

are JWs the only ones on this board who could have assisted him at that time?

I remembered you and your friend, Tatime, were
behaving diabolicaly during that period, in order to prevent other people from assisting the person who abandoned ego to seek help from the public.

Not only that, your friend, with your support, even embarrassed the wife when she came out here, while still lying down on the hospital bed where she just put to birth, to confirm that the plea was a genuine one.

Now, after that show of shame from both of you, you still want to regard yourself as one of the JWs who assist non members.


Speak for yourself, and don't hide behind other kind hearted JWs.

And, Just imagine they way you keep bringing up something everyone else as long forgotten.

You keep reminding us, and still continue to talk about it as if it just happened yesterday.


Old man maximum, wey dey behave like small pikin

SMH

MaxInDHouse:
I remember an atheist on this forum who always speak against faith in God but when his wife was in the hospital needing financial support this guy came here on this same forum begging religionists for money with his wife who claims she's a born again Christian both begging for financial assistance to foot the hospital bill. Well trust religionists nah they were giving him in the name of their gods and the funny atheist thanking them in the name of their god!

You are on your own.

Poverty-stricken and very selfish JWs are the ones I know, who like to use JW doctrine as an excuse not to assist those outside their group.

The wealthy JWmembers have no qualms in assisting non members.

If you only help your fellow JW, how are you different from a Boko Haram terrorist who would also do the same?

thesicilian:
Now you're just being emotional. That's why I said at the beginning that you're not really that much of a freethinker. Freethinkers are logical, not sentimental. Maybe you're still at the baby stages of your so called atheism. Like those women who claim to be independent feminists but can't afford to go Dutch on a date.
1. It was the Bible that labelled you a fool, not me.
2. There is something called principle, you might have heard of it. Or maybe you should find out what it means. Some people would rather die than accept to do certain things.
3. Partial knowledge can more often than not be more damaging than no knowledge at all. Do you think that prostitute you alluded to would have remained a prostitute after meeting with the men of God? She was a sinner before meeting them, but not likely to have remained so after. Do you think they'd have been sent to her by God if she was an unrepentant prostitute/sinner/atheist? Even the sinners and tax collectors Jesus dined with, was for the purpose of converting them, not to prove to others that he was woke. When they turned, they were welcomed into the body of Christ. And when they refused the gospel, they were left alone. The relationship didn't continue after rejection. Christianity is not democracy, majority don't have to agree with something to make it accepted in Christianity, there are sets of rules that must be followed.

And since this conversation has started to circle, this will probably be my last response here.

Lol.

Let's assume I displayed some emotions ,does it mean there's no truth in what I have said?

Instead of critically responding to my response, you have reacted emotionally by deflecting to feminism, democracy and what nots.

And if you were really using logic as you claim you wouldn't be so quick to abel me an atheist . What do you know about me.?

Did I announce myself an atheist?

Ok, You are free to end the conversation God's right hand man who knows how everyone in the world would turn out to be in the future.

thesicilian:
Lol
That is one of the idiosyncrasies of the Christian faith. But I think it boils down more to personal hypocrisies really. I personally would not ask for nor be too eager to accept help from someone whose belief systems are polar opposites of mine. Mostly because one day I may be obligated to return the favour in a manner that may not conform to my beliefs.

What business do you have with anyone who has made up his mind that everything you stand for is pure foolishness?

Life doesn't operate the way you think.

You may find yourself one day in a life and death situation where the only person willing and available to help you is that person you have labelled a ', fool'.

What would you do then, refuse the help and stand the risk of losing your life, thereby sending your friends and love ones into mourning?

As long as you live amongst different kinds of people, believers and non believers, don't ever rule out the possiblity that a day may come when the only person that's truly ready to offer instant help is that you least expect.

Remember, in the Bible, it was a prostitute , a person not regarded as knowing God, that hid the spies from those seeking to kill them.

Common sense and the humanity we all share is what's needed to handle certain situations.

thesicilian:
It's not really about having different belief systems, it's more about not being too inclined to help those who go completely against your belief system. As a Christian myself I'll more than willing to help a Muslim, a Hindu, an African traditionalist than an atheist. These people believe in God in one way or the other, unlike the fool who says there's no God (according to my Bible).

And if that 'fool' is your brother who is a multi billionaire, you won't hesitate to run to him for help when you need to, not minding his non belief.

Christians are reluctant to help anyone outside their fath, but would quickly accept assistance from anyone that offers it, not minding who they person is, with the excuse that God can use anyone to help them, even if it's the devil.

thesicilian:
I sense sarcasm, but like I said, if you're a true freethinker, you'd see the reality. It's like telling a fisherman you don't believe in fishing yet asking him to share his catch with you.

It's selfish behaviour to share what we have with only those who believe in what we do.

Redoilbeta:
Thanks for you inputs. I understand, But honestly, I wasn't Being Rude or Engaged them in any Form of Arrogance, I'm not the type at all, Also I'm still trying to fathom how I have bitten them.

I never even relate with them bringing up a discussion about Religion at all ,They just discovered I wasn't following them to church Programs anymore, the weekly Activities, I use to be very Sound and Eloquent when it comes to Evangelism...

They asked me reason I wasn't joining them anymore and I Humbly told them my stand now.

So they became Wild and Annoyed.

Well as many gave rightly Said... There is no Problem, It's a Matter of time, I will gets something to do, After all I wasn't a Lazy Person right from time...

Not Specifically I would get a help from an Atheist too, I didn't becomes an atheist because I wanted help from any, If it comes fine,if not fine also.

Just play along with them until you can survive on your own.

They have refused to help you as before because they want to have you back to church That's all.

You shouldn't expect things to ever be the same again when you choose to live in disharmony with the people whom you depend on for your sustenance in life.

It's either you find a way to live in harmony with them, or you find a way to stand on your feet.

Religious people everywhere strongly believe their god is responsible for whatever they get from life. Your non belief is now a threat to this belief.

You can't bite the finger that feeds you and still expect to be fed by it.



You just need to play along until you're able to survive on your own , if not ,it may be difficult.

chieveboy:
Please do create a thread on this and invite me. Scientists have long done justice to the matter of NDEs or OBEs as far back as the 70s. These guys (AWARE11) are rather elementary comparably. Thanks.

Who are the scientists please?

What did they conclude after the study?

Any link to the study report to enable one confirm your latest claim?

Because from what I know, nothing has been concluded yet in the main body of the sciences.. Scientists don't yet accept that consciousness can be separated from the brain.

I hope you provide proof this time around so that this claim of yours doesn't go the way of the others none of which you have yet to substantiate .

chieveboy:
You're taking it too far, what objective call confirmation had their methods and tools delivered so far? What qualifies as "confirmation"? 2D images and and some texts? I don't think so




True, and all we would and accept as fact or "proven" would then be mostly some aftereffects of 'reality' and facts that we take home as reality.

It becomes more unrealizable especially how results rely 100% on the hypothesis or theory inspiring the manufacture of the scientific tools and methodologies. You will see why I said this:

Natural science as far as it relies on physical tools, theories and hypothesis is a science of the aftermath of reality in it's most nearest meta-physical (not the stereo "metaphysical" ) definition, this is premised on the fact that the building blocks of what earthlings term reality are entirely non-local to our space-time domain. Basically, we're saying all we deal with here are aftermaths of 'finer' if not, 'true' realities.

This introduces the premise of half-truths or half knowledge which in most cases is an outright lie. Take the example of seeing a half moon and reporting it (A moon) as a crescent, and then all scientists in that domain build machines and methodologies that deals with crescents--disaster or a lie at best.





It's possible to see images my friend, and it had been done elsewhere already. I am not disposed to state where and by whom and pleeeease, move on and don't dwell on this. Didn't we all say that there is more than meets the eye?

Meanwhile, that the 'aware' guys didn't see images, sights and sounds means there are in the premise of half truths and outright lies. An OBE is not an MRI scan image neither is it whatever any 2D electronic data scientists chose to accept as a confirmation for an OBE. And OBE is an OBE, anything short of SEEing, BEing and KNOWing is a spectating of effects, and yes, Scientists in this same world we dwell do this (seeing, being and knowing).

That we should go with AWARE2's report for confirmation of NDE or OBE is an invitation to accept a very misleading information. We would only be romancing a mirage brought about by the 'granduer' of saying "we're scientifically proving NDE" and the drama surrounding the venture. We humans do that, for instance, we sold our kidneys for iPhone 4s.



This sounds like there isn't much to go home with is there? No harm in trying though, they should keep trying.



It took me 1 minute to probe and grasp this.

I am not sure how this makes sense by the end of the day given the basic meaning of the term. Scientists are saying a 'Veridical perception' is when someone is seeing a plate of Akpu and describing the Akpu they all know.

Question is when one is having an OBE, supposing they hear sounds humans do not hear? Does this pass as veridical? It's simple, the dogs hear the dog whistle but we humans do not. When a human now hears this during an OBE, are we saying hearing sounds at ultrasound level is hallucinatory?

This question is if we do not extend it to seeing Buildings, people, etc during NDEs and OBEs that do not look anything like our conventions.



I want to guess the root word in "Veridical" is "Very" because veridical basically means 'truth' according to the internet.

You statement here negates the meaning of a veridical perception. If you leave me, the term means imagining or "seeing" things that we have on earth and nothing more. Perception is not only via OBE. We perceive the smell of food daily and it's veridical. If we perceive food however and no obvious or hidden food around, we're hallucinating?That's the meaning of the term and it's application.





The skepticism arises from the issue about natural sciences I have told you earlier--that of studying and experimenting after-effects of reality. The drugs, the microscopes, the machines, etc are all inspired by second-class information. Not entirely bad because we dwell in the domain of after-effects and we can 'create' more of such for our daily lives. Half truths can be outright lies however.



I did, I was surprised to find that the research depends 90% on the experiences of people (see screenshot). People where made to identify pictures and events while outside their bodies. I recall you faulted this scientific method. How people come from no where and identify the ECK Masters like even me.

All the while, I was thinking AWARE2 'gets inside the head' of the Subjects with some special device, probe and send brain wave or activity scans as 2D images or frequencies.

Veridical perception lastly dismisses hallucinations", further on what I said earlier. It is a big mistake arising from too much romance with half knowledge and half truths which are lies mostly. If anything, hallucinations stretches the human sensoria to extents where further realities are observed comfortably or uncomfortably. Thanks

I will come back to respond to this later.

In the meantime you still don't understand what's veridical perception during NDE.

That's why you struggle to understand the article . Please do some further readings on the subject.

Finally ,nobody was made to identify pictures. as you put it. It's not possible to make an unconscious person during cardiac arrest to do such.a thing. They were only ask what they experienced during that period to see if it comes confirms with what was going on in that environment during that unconscious state when they are not supposed to have any kind of awareness.

Read what you wrote again and ask yourself, how is it possible for the researchers to make people identify pictures while outside their bodies? How can they see they're outside their bodies to start asking them that?

Read the article again.

chieveboy:
Firstly, merely judging by how in-your-face I had been with you, never could you have mistaken any of it as some (fake) humility.

In my outer life, I have taken on a certain group of 'giants' who further have potent juju...

Perhaps you didn't notice me until when you introduced whatever led to you getting it without unnecessary filters. It was an honest mistake on your path to mistake me for some meek Eckist as requested.


Secondly, I have consumed too many of such before requesting Eckankar membership. Too many. Some of the questions and comments you may find some of these anti-Eckankar forums may be mine. Some are even off the internet. I further saw when a new group left Eckankar creating their own path.

Attached is a screenshots that may pass as a de-marketing of Paul to you written by Harold Klemp himself.

How does it concern or affect me if you're a meek eckist or not. I cannot know everything about you from Nairaland. My reaction is from what you have displayed here on this board.

Concerning your so call demarketing of Paul by Harold, you surely don't know the complete story of why he did that.

chieveboy:
I can bet you $1 that whatever the report, all you're getting is 2D data as "confirmation". Since you know about the report, kindly summarize here. It will be nothing to go home with.

Brain effect of OBE experiences can be perfectly replicated with some of the fantastic drugs and herbs out there if you don't know. Alpha, Delta and theta states of the brain are just what the scanners wil be able to capture. Nothing more.

If you employ advanced means like Soul Travel however, you get the main thing like the scientist I told you of earlier whose report you're not getting online. So for science to properly investigate mere Supra physical event, they need better machines than 2D-reporting ones.

My question is, what do you know about the methods they're employing?

Scientists don't always see directly the things they're dealing with, but through the use of certain methods they're able to confirm if a particular element, not visible to the naked eye or instrumentation, is present somewhere. True or false?

AWARE11 researchers haven't gotten to the stage where they can see images( don't think that would ever be possible) in people's head.

They research is still at its elementary stage so nothing is completely confirmed yet.

At the moment,they're only concentrating on the veridical aspect of NDE in order to verify if the experience is hallucinatory or not. I admit they have some limitations, but it's not as you think.

So far, they have only succeeded in confirming just one case .Its not an easy task when you consider the nature of the experience.

If you don't know what's veridical perception during NDE, you won't understand what I'm talking about.



It's not possible to have veridical perception without an OBE.

However, skeptics have argued that it's not even possible to have an OBE in the first place.

So whom do we believe?

Do you know what veridical perception is during NDE and how it's confirmed?


It won't make sense to share a link about something you may not understand.

Go through the below

https://neuroskoki.pl/en/awareness-during-resuscitation-results-of-the-study/

chieveboy:
You will recall you used the AWAKE 2 as reference for a confirmation or verification of people having NDEs, and I reminded you that the AWAKE 2 if it merely focuses on the MRI image scans (I called it "brain dance images" and "brain postures" earlier) of people's brains, still does not pass a confirmation of anything EXCEPT if scientist are able to view in real-time the experience of the OBE subjects.

My point is:

1: Monks have been scanned when they are in high meditative state. The scans showed unbelievable brain activity. I suppose they'll be similar to those in AWAKE 2. Exception of course if AWAKE gives us video feedback of what the OBEd guy sees, smells, and feels.

2: If you would accept 2d images (MRI reports) as confirmation of a more grander occasion and experience, fine. Know however that in the case of similar scientific study and discipline like 'Past Life Regression', the experience of the subjects is the primary data for confirmation. Brain scan images are not used.

3: So personal experience even in Law is admissible if logical enough.

The only missing thing here is for scientists to develop interest to decide to converge and focus on the reports of Eckists on the Eck Masters.



Hundreds of thousands if not millions infact. In your romance with Eckankar, you must have come across how they often do not always market a religion or point people to any immediately. Also how these masters work with groups in diverse fields of study if it suits their mission. Rebazar Tarz and a particular Master not mentioned at all in the Eckankar literature is said to romance Hollywood resulting in movies that stretch the consciousness of man.

You have them Agriculture, Tech especially, Medicine and, Mysticism and so in. If you must know, Nigerians are part of what we call Eck Masters too.



Many:

1: Past Life relationships
2: Soul's readiness for Truth
3: Love
4: Divine Intervention



I must have made an understatement if at all I ever equated Eckankar with Natural sciences. Based on your antecedence l, what I can tell you is that what we call Natural sciences today are elementary mysticism or religion in advanced climes.

Science is even admitting to this--"The best of technology being equal or indistinguishable to magic".

Is this a joke or what?

Where are the advanced climes located where the natural sciences is being refer to as religion or mysticism currently?

Your final submission is only made by those who cannot distinguish between magic and the rational sciences

.[/quote]

chieveboy:
You will recall you used the AWAKE 2 as reference for a confirmation or verification of people having NDEs, and I reminded you that the AWAKE 2 if it merely focuses on the MRI image scans (I called it "brain dance images" and "brain postures" earlier) of people's brains, still does not pass a confirmation of anything EXCEPT if scientist are able to view in real-time the experience of the OBE subjects.

My point is:

1: Monks have been scanned when they are in high meditative state. The scans showed unbelievable brain activity. I suppose they'll be similar to those in AWAKE 2. Exception of course if AWAKE gives us video feedback of what the OBEd guy sees, smells, and feels.

2: If you would accept 2d images (MRI reports) as confirmation of a more grander occasion and experience, fine. Know however that in the case of similar scientific study and discipline like 'Past Life Regression', the experience of the subjects is the primary data for confirmation. Brain scan images are not used.

3: So personal experience even in Law is admissible if logical enough.

The only missing thing here is for scientists to develop interest to decide to converge and focus on the reports of Eckists on the Eck Masters.



Hundreds of thousands if not millions infact. In your romance with Eckankar, you must have come across how they often do not always market a religion or point people to any immediately. Also how these masters work with groups in diverse fields of study if it suits their mission. Rebazar Tarz and a particular Master not mentioned at all in the Eckankar literature is said to romance Hollywood resulting in movies that stretch the consciousness of man.

You have them Agriculture, Tech especially, Medicine and, Mysticism and so in. If you must know, Nigerians are part of what we call Eck Masters too.



Many:

1: Past Life relationships
2: Soul's readiness for Truth
3: Love
4: Divine Intervention



I must have made an understatement if at all I ever equated Eckankar with Natural sciences. Based on your antecedence l, what I can tell you is that what we call Natural sciences today are elementary mysticism or religion in advanced climes.

Science is even admitting to this--"The best of technology being equal or indistinguishable to magic"



I will let you have whatever arises from this assertion.

Eckankar however is not a belief path.

Anyone who believes anything from Eckankar without making effort to confirm is suffering from Social engineering of religion. Eckankar is not made for that.

These posts as you have been told are to inspire the spirit of adventure and exploration for one to know that perhaps, there may be more to the boundaries of religion.

But you have not been able to show how it's not based on a set of beliefs.

For instance, how is it not a belief that the living Eck master is God's only true representative on earth?
As for AWARE 11 , please stop mentioning anything about it because you have shown that you have no knowledge about what they're doing. They have no means to confirm or see what people experience subjectively, but have devise a means to verify what people report during NDE.

Go and read the report first before passing judgement. What you continue to say about AWARE 11 is completely off the mark and it's annoying you keep repeating it with the confidence of someone who's abreast with what is being done

chieveboy:
The mistake people make especially that which inspired your question is that when they hear "ECK" they feel it is a religious affiliate of the ECKankar organization, whereas religions and organizations like Eckankar and other mystical schools are merely built around ECK.

I believe you read my definition of this term earlier in the other thread.

Moreover, Pythagoras and several of these 'ascended masters' present the higher teachings (we call "Eckankar" ) via several names and as disciplines like mathematics, music and so on in the course of history.

The person responsible for bringing the teaching out openly once again (Paul Twitchell) employed the terms "ECK" and "ECKankar", he could have used "SOURCE" and "SOURCEpath" respectively for those in English.

For instance, several religions had worshiped the sun and had called the sun and their respective religions different names but are all referring to that singular Sun we all know.

If you can, kindly read the latest story about Rebazar Tarz, it can give you another angle to grasp this "ECK".

So for each age, someone is always around to teach "Eck" in a way or form the people could accept or grasp. This person is the one with the highest consciousness of the day and is usually ordained by a line of ascended masters Eckists call the "Vairagi Adepts". "Vairag" means detached by the way. Sometimes, they work with a few group while they use dreams and 'direct projection' to teach distant ready souls.





This reminds me of the other guy

These guys however are not cut for making statements like "I am a master", if anyone does this, it may be a pointer that they are likely not. Most times, they don't even say their names.

Pythagoras's concept of mathematics further lends credit to the fact that mathematics or physics is merely the physical representation of the physically-definable aspect of what a portion of scientists call the 'Ether'. His approach in giving this teaching out is from the Mental or Third Heaven.

This ECK can be taught even via nursery school rhymes. Tai chi for instance is said to 'graspable' even from eating and doing basic stuff. So also ECK.

Paul Twitchell 'invented' the word , Eck, and gave it several meanings to make it possible for him to link it with prominent persons and institution in history .

The reason he did that was to find support for his false claim that Eckankar , the religion he founded in the sixties, is at the root of all human inventions and achievements, and also that anyone in the past who had achieved anything worth celebrating worldwide was guided by the Eck.

Eckankar teachings describe the word, Eck
to mean the audible life stream, the Holy spirit, 'finer energy' , 'coalesced matter' (which scientists work with), etc. Eck is also defined as the religion , Eckankar, or is used interchangeably to refer to the same thing; Eck teachings, Eckankar teachings, or Eck masters, Eckankar master, etc

What we have here is a situation where a single word is made to mean different conflicting things at the same time.

The problem with this, is that, for instance, the audible life stream and the Holy spirit don't refer to the same reality as Paul Twitchell wanted his followers to believe.

In Christianity, the holy spirit is understood to mean a person or being that's part of the Trinity, the father, son and the Holy spirit.

While the audible life stream in Hinduism is understood to mean the all pervasive universal consciousness within everyone,

But since Paul Twitchell had tied the two opposing realities as one though the word , Eck, it then became easier for him to proclaim falsely that Paul in the Christian Bible was an Eck master and in the same breath Pythagoras was also an Eck master.

The 'Ether' that Pythagoras referred to in his teachings has no connection with the Holy spirit as it's conceptualised in christianity.

There's no known human language in the world, either in the past or present that the word ,Eck, can be found to mean something.. . Eck only refers to the person of Johann Mayer a German Roman Catholic theologian who was an opponent of Martin Luther

Paul invented the word, Eck, for a reason I already explained above.

Cc, @ oteneaaron

chieveboy:
It was nothing beyond statement of facts and nothing personal. The mango never falls too far from the tree does it?

You never mentioned nor issued any disclaimers or even alluded to such in your explicit statements like "lies lies lies" "Eckankar needs your money", "Paul invented the Masters" "phantoms" , and all such statements that qualify as highly defamatory Paul Twitchell and the organizational Eckankar.

You cunningly employed the 'had-not-been proven-by-any-science' dynamics because you felt it gave you a good basis for your arguments about the validity of the masters, but then in another breath, you admit science is rather infantile in catching up to realities. You set a double standard, to what end and for what motive?

Now, if you had admitted that those online resources you hinted at where you said where the sources for when Paul "invented" the masters too where not really verified no proven by any means you hold "scientific", you would have been absolved of any suspicion of harbouring personal issues with the path. You're only (falsely) mentioning you give disclaimers after I requested scientific proof too, and you never did no alluded to any such disclaimers!



Awwwn, so you know about the "love" huh? Poor you sir, I am 'legitely' sorry if I hit a nerve, I am! Know however that what you're getting is LOVE, not "love".

At least we have peeled off an unnecessary layer today revealing that the reality that since ECK Masters are no lab rats that scientists could catch and put under their scopes, perhaps science if interested would explore other current or novel scientific methodologies for the venture.

Also you by now, you should be ditching the notion that science not verifying anything lends any discredibility to things! If anything, science had been a very good source of misinformation and deceit afterall. This is if you have your ears to the ground lately.

So please kindly take it by face value. It walked and quacked like a duck because it was one.

What I have mentioned about Paul Twitchell are facts not just mere claims. So , I don't need to issue any disclaimer.

If you want us to discuss those then create another thread fur it.

Before we had the Internet in Nigeria, I was already exposed to the falsehood of Paul Twitchell. So don't think I just went online to research whatever I have mentioned so far on this thread.

The internet hass only made what is known about Paul popular. That's all.

All that you have up there is another attempt to misrepresent me as usual.

I never completely dismiss your stories about meeting or seeing the Eck masters. I even shared my friend's wife story along the way, but said those meetings were with phantoms and not real beings.

I can only issue a disclaimer for my explanations about what caused those experiences. I talked about the higher self, soul or egregore which are not scientifically proven, but true using alternative methods of enquiry.

If you believe the Eck masters are real, nobody can disprove your claim successfully. But don't say they have been scientifically proven because when you do so people would surely ask for the scientific methods you have used to see if they can also prove it themselves.

chieveboy:
My truth is demonstrated to a large extent from my experiences on the subject and that of others I have shared here. It is substantial even based on scientific yardsticks, given that same outcome of an exactness in the physical appearance and attributes of the Masters is obtained from each accounts from neutral and u related subjects of the 'experiment' where some are shared by the organization.

You keep seeking "a neutral group" for the study, but it was derived from those in Theosophy, Buddhism, Christianity and even atheism. The neutrality was even such that subjects of the experience where not subjected to any form of suggestion whatsoever especially in my case as a clueless Sunday-School-going child!!!

The idea of asking you to grasp the Peer Review system is that just you alone could form one, you could in every ramification of it and the process given the hypothesis at hand. At least you have the basic qualification as especially an informed critic.

So now have the awareness to request a "scientific process" to verify the Masters right?,you however didn't ask this earlier but was emphatic by saying "lies lies lies" to the account of people on the Eck Masters.

That was the actual putting of the cart before the horse, and is what inspired the prognosis of "Eckankar Beefer" and other adjectives I described you. They were apt and exact! It was based on obvious data you left behind not a "guilt shaming". Infact it is a form of guilt-shaming to say I was guilt-shaming you based on the apparrent cart on front of your horse.

It will take you a while to grasp that the mere stories I share here are scientific proof in the sense of the word. And that Eckankar being novel relative to the conventionality of mainstream science and it's research methodologies (much like millions of other uncovered grounds by mainstream science) has equally novel and unconventional processes for it's science.

At least you earlier admitted to the limit of current scientific systems and equally admitted to science not fully graping matters like some African medicine for instance. The only exception you have proven to make to this reality is when Eckankar is involved.

Can you see why we see what we see in terms of your apparent intent and motive although very very inconsequential after all is said and done?

I missed the above

Personal stories without proper verification is not evidence in the natural sciences, please.

What was the method used in verifying the stories you have been sharing? It's not enough to say because people report the same thing, then that's the evidence.

What's the percentage of people who have reported the same thing as against the general population?

What's the cause of the experience?



You said Eckankar is equal to the natural sciences such as physics chemistry and biology.

Natural sciences rely more on experimental data to prove its claims and not experiential data.



Since you haven't been able to provide any such data, it then means Eckankar is not what you want us to believe it's.

Maynman:
You brought in okonkwo and things fall apart and you are using it as an argument but you won’t tell us what happened in the book, what kind of logic is this?

was okonkwo killed by suicide or gunshot?
Which one is the correct one?
And was the chatgpt incorrect in apologizing and correcting his mistakes?

How did you manipulate it?
can you manipulate it to give you another answer saying he died by drowning?


It was you that brought in chatgpt now that it doesn’t align with you it’s false, see what religion has done to you.

In ' Things Fall Apart' by chinua Achebe, Okonkwo killed himself by commiting suicide.

After killing one of the colonial government's messenger, he hung himself to prevent the shame and embarrassment that would follow from a trial in the colonial court.

chieveboy:
Lol this really cracked me up. I had never been under any guise of humility or fake love, if anything, my tenacity and boldness to hold you by the balls was what you had severally tried to blackwash as insult and injuries. You indeed are a funny man sir .




Lol; In this stanza, you now assume the place of the ECK ITself. Wow, King of kings and lord of lords, I hail thee sir.

Give or take, you are indeed a wonderful creature of God you know, we both are .

I didn't assume it. I only reminded you of something that's also accepted as truth everywhere

chieveboy:
Modified*

I thought to make it simpler for you on the guilt-tripping:

1: I can give it to you hot if the occasion warrants and feel no iota of guilt about it. I understand your dynamics of blackmail too well. You can even write Chanhassen about my 'uneckist' attitude. It's all an antic.

I'm not guilt tripping you , but only called you out for your reckless talk which I never expected.

Your pretences led me to see you for what you're not. Now that you have finally come out and bare your fangs , I'm now in better position to know how to relate with you if I ever have to next time.

There are some persons here I don't discuss with even if they quote me, while lessons learnt from discussing with some others have taught me to ignore them next time.



So be yourself and stop pretending. Hit me with anything. Then , it's either I ignore you or respond with fire
.

2: Of course you never directed any "attack" on me and non were directed at your person either. See below.

3: You seem to be mistaking the Master strokes applied to showcase your motive and intent for "personal attacks", anyways, I told you earlier above: emotional blackmail is not for me..

You are vague here. .


.

4: Please bring all the fact out. I am here waiting for you lol, I am so happy to hear that threat ..



Thanks.

Your threat means nothing to me if it means a lot to you.


I shared a link already go through that one first and respond critically to it.

chieveboy:
...I think I further blurred the lines between me and ben odic. I mentioned this fact explicitly to someone earlier on this regard. If you do anyhow, you get the stick in a way an Eckist can and should 'administer' it. You didn't know there is that too right? I see you are yet trying another angle of "gentleman" and "love"...

If you must know, there was yet one here whom I gave the Ben odic treatment, the person only loves to troll. You were engaged because I felt your concerns where legit and you walked the talk of that "gentleman"...

You opened up later mentioning "Eckankar needs your money" and all manner of libellous statements.


I invited you to open a thread where we can talk the sciences on Eckankar,you would rather keep on, you were "winning" after all...

If anything, you proved to be yet another troll who consumed baked and unbaked materials on Eckankar elsewhere and felt you should weaponise it here especially that "claims about Eck Masters are not verified elsewhere" and "Paul was a fraud"...

If anything, I did a fantastic job of shinning the light on what holds this little weapon of yours together and it shattered right in your eyes and now you're sobber and needs "love" when that was infact what you're getting.

More can be done if another thread where I present my 'claims' further is opened.

I think You can go now sir, with blessings of course.

You have finally revealed your self, and I'm not surprised. You have been hiding behind a smokescreen of fake love and pretended humility . I know your type back then in Eckankar. You joined for power. You will disappointed in the end

The path of power leads to destruction for those who follow that route.

None of the things I mentioned so far about Eckankar were direct attacks on your person. You are not Eckankar, but want to take it personal and start threatening me? I Lol





Just keep your eckist stick nonsense to yourself so you don't end up fooling yourself.

Everything I have mentioned here are the truth about Excankar. They are supported by evidence.

1. It's true Paul Twitchell set up Eckankar as business venture for profit. True or false?

Yes, Excankar desperately need your money for survival.No true master anywhere will ever charge you money for initiations or anything else. That has been the tradition.Black magicians are the only ones who charge you for the services they offer you.


2. It's on record that Paul admitted to his wife and close friends he was going to use Eckankar to make money for himself and become very rich.But, unfortunately he didn't live long enough to enjoy the fruits of his ' labour: Others are enjoying it now


.3.Most of the Eck teachings were copied from elsewhere.I will be mentioning those later
Copied is putting it midly. He actually stole them and there are enough evidences of how he did that and where he copied from. The first time stumbled on the truth of how he plagiarised the works of others, I felt duped and realised instantly I have been wasting my time , money and energy... The most disappointing one was even copying from the Christian Bible and passing it off as something said by one of the Eck masters, Lai tsi.I shared a link already. Dare go through it and begin to get exposed to the truth

4. Finally, Paul invented some of the Eck masters. The others he superimposed his own fake version of history so as to link them to Eckankar. If it is true Rumi, Plato, Pythagoras, and others were living Eck masters in the past, the million dollar question is, why is there no record of them ever mentioning or using the name of God, Sugmad, which Eckankar claimed is God's ancient and sacred name. Or did God change his name in the sixties when Paul created Eckankar?


The above started information can be verified
Go verify them.

You want to go where you will bitterly regret.

This is a public forum where I have family and friends who may be deceived by the lies of your Eck teachings. I take it upon myself to protect them just like others helped me to break free in the past.

If you think what you are spreading here are facts, then quit the ad hominem are defend them. But you surely can't do that hence the personal attacks and the threat.

The article below contains useful information that's corroborated elsewhere to be true

https://innersonickey.org/2016/06/20/the-genealogical-connection-kirpal-singh-paul-twitchell-and-eckankar/

chieveboy:
It was nothing beyond statement of facts and nothing personal. The mango never falls too far from the tree does it?

You never mentioned nor issued any disclaimers or even alluded to such in your explicit statements like "lies lies lies" "Eckankar needs your money", "Paul invented the Masters" "phantoms" , and all such statements that qualify as highly defamatory Paul Twitchell and the organizational Eckankar.

You cunningly employed the 'had-not-been proven-by-any-science' dynamics because you felt it gave you a good basis for your arguments about the validity of the masters, but then in another breath, you admit science is rather infantile in catching up to realities. You set a double standard, to what end and for what motive?

Now, if you had admitted that those online resources you hinted at where you said where the sources for when Paul "invented" the masters too where not really verified no proven by any means you hold "scientific", you would have been absolved of any suspicion of harbouring personal issues with the path. You're only (falsely) mentioning you give disclaimers after I requested scientific proof too, and you never did no alluded to any such disclaimers!



Awwwn, so you know about the "love" huh? Poor you sir, I am 'legitely' sorry if I hit a nerve, I am! Know however that what you're getting is LOVE, not "love".

At least we have peeled off an unnecessary layer today revealing that the reality that since ECK Masters are no lab rats that scientists could catch and put under their scopes, perhaps science if interested would explore other current or novel scientific methodologies for the venture.

Also you by now, you should be ditching the notion that science not verifying anything lends any discredibility to things! If anything, science had been a very good source of misinformation and deceit afterall. This is if you have your ears to the ground lately.

So please kindly take it by face value. It walked and quacked like a duck because it was one.

It's not about hitting a nerve as you didn't hit any. it's about calling you out for not showing any form of respect for the people you interact with.

This is not the first time you have thrown caustic comments at me. The evidences are all over this thread.

But I have ignored them , and not react accordingly because I don't want the discussion to degenerate into the ones we see often on this board.. The comment you made has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I have said. It was a very reckless and wayward talk. If I have to respond to that directly, believe me you will run and hide. No one wins a mud slinging contest. You should know that.

I thought you would act like a gentleman just like Benodic who I have never for once seen displaying the kind of overly condescending attitude you have been displaying all along

You think you know all about Eckankar and can defend it? No you don't. Even Harold, your master, wouldn't not answer certain questions you have been using subterfuge to answer.You're certainly overreaching yourself.

Since you want to go the way of some other people here , I think it's high time the discussion is discontinued.

You never tried to provide any direct answers to any of the questions asked concerning your claims but to deflect into irrelevant things to steer the conversion into other areas.

None of your claims have you tried to substantiate. Not even one.

You shouldn't deceive yourself to think we are on the same page on anything here as you try to suggest in this latest reply of yours. There's a difference between anecdotal evidence and scientific evidence. You have tried to blur the lines between the two in order to make me accept some of the things you have said.

You're the one that claim science, not me, and that what you do is scientific, and and blah blah blah.
But to demonstrate the science or provide the scientific proof in support of your claim, you have failed to do so.

You don't talk scientifically proven, you demonstrate it. That's the way it's done in the natural sciences you claim Eckankar is part of.


I don't like deceiving people.I tell it the way it's.,and it's the reason I declared that my claims don't yet find full scientific support, but it doesn't mean they're not true. There are alternative methods of knowing or validating truth as I already explained.

Finally, you can keep your Gopal Das evidences. I don't need them because I know it won't prove anything. There's no valid historical documents anywhere in support of your claims for the phantom being, and even for the other Eck masters.

Paul Twitchell invented all of that. This is public knowledge. Most eckist are not aware of this, or know about it, but have found away around it in order to continue to believe in the teachings of Eckankar.

chieveboy:
If you notice, I tend to desist from discussing anything that may necessary fall under "not scientifically proven" with you. In one breath, you will accept non-scientific claims like egregores and whatnots when it suits you, but when Eckankar is mentioned in same breath, you would not have it. This is your problem--a legit personal issues! If you came out as mystic from the beginning who accepts the objective and subjective arts, I would have considered.

Your embrace and romance of the very unproven phenomena of "Egregores", "Soul", "Higher selves" "Phantoms" so far have demonstrated evidence that you only accept non-scientific phenomena when Eckankar is not involved.





Incidentally I have stumbled on materials where this dude was written about by an Egyptologist even with old copies of manuscript of some of his work, but here you are...


I will furnish you with materials (free) on Gopal Das if you provide scientific data as to how Paul managed to generate "egregores" and whatnots. God knows I need scientific data or corroboration too.

You seem to derive some pleasure from misrepresenting me. I reproduce below what I said in the past on this same thread.

And mind your words please. I don't have any legit personal issues. That's going too far and being reckless with the way you address people. Is that the love Eckankar ask you to share with others?
Stop the personal attacks please and focus on your Op

triplechoice:
Everyone believes something. There's nobody without something that they believe in. Even scientists have what they believe too.

I have shared what I believe on this board too.

But each time I do so, I always issue a disclaimer that what I share doesn't yet find scientific support amongst scientist in the main body of the sciences. With that, I'm always free to share with the public the truth in life I have discovered.

Not every truth in the world is supported or proven in the sciences.

One can use ones knowledge of objective science to validate or explain personal or group truths to the public. But it's deception to then declare next that such truths have become scientifically proven.

Things that are accepted as scientifically proven in the sciences are always published in a peer review journal. That's the only time it's accepted as scientific facts, and not before.

Eckankar truths are not scientifically proven nor is it a branch of physics as you once declared. If that were true, It would be taught in public schools everywhere .


Nobody likes to be deceived. .

chieveboy:
Before your AWARE11, weren't people having NDEs? Answering this is crucial to my point because it is only a matter of time and scientists would help us see other 'dimensions' physically, for now, they are only beginning in matters of NDE and such.

People certainly were having NDE, but the stories that came from it were not verified until recently that scientists are starting to look into it.

Just focus on your Op . AWARE11 is not mine. So don't refer to it as 'your AWARE11' in order to dismiss it .

It's a research study currently being conducted by those in the main body of the sciences drawn from various disciplines, involving neuroscientists, doctors and nurses in some selected hospitals in different parts of the world, and not just
a group of individuall scientists working independently on their own. They're not comparable to creation scientists who are fundamentalist Christians seeking to prove that Bible myths were actual historical events.

So, it's not what you think. If you want to discuss NDE , create another thread for that.

Who mentioned only Eckankar share such stories? Who "manufactured" the beings shared in other stories outside Eckankar? Paul?

Every religion has its egregore( 'manufactured beings')

An egregore is an autonomous non physical entity that has arising from the collective thoughtforms of a group of people.

Every religion or spiritual paths has created its own egregore either consciously or unconsciously. Angelic beings that some persons sometimes report encountering either in dreams or in waking state, are examples of egregores.

The devil or Satan is an egregore. The great white brotherhood, in AMORC is another example of an egregore or egregores.

A spiritual adept who knows how , can consciously create an egregore to control the consciousness of members in any group or movement he or she is seeking to establish or has established. Egregores once formed, starts to feed or depend on the thought energy of those ,who have been drawn into its reality, for its continual existence.

Egregores certainly can provide help and spiritual assistance to anyone who believe and trust in them, but there's a price to pay sometimes which maybe huge and difficult to pay.

The nine silent ones and the other Eck masters which appear to people are all egregores which controls and determines what members of Eckankar, or anyone drawn to the religion experiences.

How come Paul created "lies" that are able to meet people physically and in the inner worlds to talk to them about real-life stuffs even without prior information or clues to and of these "creations" as in the case of me and my dad?

The 'lies' I talked about are the fake version of history he created and superimposed on well known figures in history in order to give Eckankar an impressive historical past to make it appealing to the public.
Pythagoras, Rumi, Lai tso that he changed to Lai tsi, never had anything to do with the rellgion of Eckankar. There's no single connection whatsoever to link them to Eckankar that was created in the sixties.

If I invented a phantom, the phantom should not predate my date of invention as it where in the case of people meeting the Masters way before Eckankar's reemergence in 1965.

You don't know much about Eckankar history. Even though Paul registered Eckankar in 1965, he had already been teaching some group of persons about the religion he was later to register from books he wrote years before that time.

Some of these books were the flute of God and the Tiger's fangs, originally the God Eaters, with contents that were heavily plagiarized from the works of others.

The published dates of those books were not the same day Paul wrote them. He wrote them long before that time. So, what are you talking about?

In the original manuscript of the Tiger's fang, God Eaters, Paul had mentioned kirpal Singh ,one of those who taught him soul travel, as the person who took him on those inner journeys described in the book, but when he broke away from Singh after a quarrel, he replaced his name with the unknown Rebazar Tarz he created in order to get it published later. This information is documented and available online if you search for it.


Still on your question, before anything manifest in the physical plane, it has already happened in the inner where it still can be experienced by anyone. I already mentioned that the higher self has the capability to know things, past, present and future in the present moment. It's not limited by time and space.

It's a surprise to me that inspite of your knowledge of some of the things I have explained concerning the capability of the higher self, soul, which I know you're aware of, you still want to see things from the position of the lower self that's mystified by such experiences.

Don't you think you're trying to deny the truth that you know so well so you can continue to believe?

There are records of Gopal Das in some Egyptian libraries FYI.

Here we go again. Another wild claim not supported by any valid historical document anywhere. Eckankar says so, and without corraboration from elsewhere, it's immediately accepted as fact by you.

What dynasty did Gopal Das create the cult?

Who was the reigning Pharaoh at the time he created the cult?

And where are the links to the libraries, or any books on it. Mention just one name.

Let's pretend we don't care if Paul Invented these guys or not, simply provide logical (if not scientific) clues, reasons to the questions above.

I have done so above.

I'm still waiting for your evidence that a certain Tibetan who is over 500 years old is living in a hut in the Hindu Kush mountain.

chieveboy:
You will wonder how scientists who conduct research on NDE perform such research lol.

Personal stories are no proof indeed

You are not current about NDE studies.

At the moment scientists have found a way to verify NDE unlike in the past when it wasn't possible to so . That's the difference.

Your stories are not yet verified to be true and besides Paul created Rebazar Tarz and Gopal Das.

And you think Eckankar is the only religion where members share similar stories. No.


I already ask you to search for AWARE11 studies to see how scientists are currently verifying NDE and compare it with your own Eckankar stories.

Please don't deflect again into NDE. Focus on your Op.

chieveboy:
I provided such from people collected from all manner of backgrounds like Christianity, Islam, atheism and so on. I even hinted on mine and my dad's. Eckankar further provided methodologies to contact these ascended masters.

From the look of things, you're actually with the ball, especially how you rather prefer "scientific" corroboration to things like this. I like you to set an example.

Waiting...

Personal stories are not proofs. You should know that already.

Provide proofs that Rebazar is from Tibet and was once a living Eck master.

chieveboy:
How about we keep it simple and in your terms:

Produce a scientific fact to your "evidence" that Paul manufactured the Eck Masters. Remember you earlier mentioned a certain evidence existed to such claim.

Let's start from there at least.

The burden of proof is on you ,and not me.

Defend your Op first. Don't run away.

chieveboy:
My truth is demonstrated to a large extent from my experiences on the subject and that of others I have shared here. It is substantial even based on scientific yardsticks, given that same outcome of an exactness in the physical appearance and attributes of the Masters is obtained from each accounts from neutral and u related subjects of the 'experiment' where some are shared by the organization.

You keep seeking "a neutral group" for the study, but it was derived from those in Theosophy, Buddhism, Christianity and even atheism. The neutrality was even such that subjects of the experience where not subjected to any form of suggestion whatsoever especially in my case as a clueless Sunday-School-going child!!!

The idea of asking you to grasp the Peer Review system is that just you alone could form one, you could in every ramification of it and the process given the hypothesis at hand. At least you have the basic qualification as especially an informed critic.

So now have the awareness to request a "scientific process" to verify the Masters right?,you however didn't ask this earlier but was emphatic by saying "lies lies lies" to the account of people on the Eck Masters.

That was the actual putting of the cart before the horse, and is what inspired the prognosis of "Eckankar Beefer" and other adjectives I described you. They were apt and exact! It was based on obvious data you left behind not a "guilt shaming". Infact it is a form of guilt-shaming to say I was guilt-shaming you based on the apparrent cart on front of your horse.

It will take you a while to grasp that the mere stories I share here are scientific proof in the sense of the word. And that Eckankar being novel relative to the conventionality of mainstream science and it's research methodologies (much like millions of other uncovered grounds by mainstream science) has equally novel and unconventional processes for it's science.

At least you earlier admitted to the limit of current scientific systems and equally admitted to science not fully graping matters like some African medicine for instance. The only exception you have proven to make to this reality is when Eckankar is involved.

Can you see why we see what we see in terms of your apparent intent and motive although very very inconsequential after all is said and done?

Round about talk as usual without demonstrating anything.

Rebazar Tarz is a fictional character created by Paul Twitchell. That's a fact.. There's no Tibetan that's over 500 years old

Be bold to search for the information on this and know the truth. Start from there first.

Exam you never pass. You dey ask for certificate.

Person wey never produce bottle water nor they demand for NAFDAC approval.(peer review)

Produce something first make people see.

chieveboy:
If you understand the basics of what constitute the Peer Review System, set it up and let's go to work verifying Rebazar Tarzs. This is the only reasonable way.

Lol. You want to put the cart before the horse. First of all demonstrate your truth here before you talk about peer review. It's between you and me now.

Peer review is for the public after you must succeeded in demonstrating in private what you know.