One of the principal requisites for change and a self-confident personality is to satisfy your own needs first. On the surface this may appear selfish, but let's remind ourselves that only when we have done our best to make the most of ourselves can we be of greatest service to our families, friends, co- workers, communities, etc.
Many people use the philosophy of service to others first as an escape from taking responsibility for changing their own lives. They say that their husband or wife must come first; their boyfriend or girlfriend; their church, family or the world must come first. This is nothing but self-deception. An example of this kind of behavior is the person who buries himself sacrif icially in a commendable project with missionary zeal when, in truth, he can't face and eliminate his own problems . You can't change the world, but you can change yourself . The only way the human situation will improve is for each individual to take charge of his or her life. The time has come for you to stop everything else and give total priority to your needs first. This is the only way you will ever be free. Physical slavery is a punishable crime but, far worse, is mental slavery for the punishment is, as Descartes put it so well, "A life of quiet desperation. "
Source :Dr Robert Anthony. The ultimate secret of total self confidence
BetterChurch: There is no mystery about the "inner cosmology." The Spiritually Great were once in our position until they met the Living ECK Master of their time and submitted to his tutelage. But the choice is always made freely without any form of compulsion. Until then, today's mysteries will remain mysteries tomorrow. Lastly, the True Master has the special ability to act both as an Inner and Outer Guide for the Soul who is ready for Truth here and now and not after death. Only then will doubt become a thing of the past. I am talking about knowingness not merely belief. Soul exists because of Sugmad's love for It is all I can say now. My experiences are numerous but I won't share them here. My apology!
Other groups I have interacted with have also said the same thing. That their master is the living master of the time who can act both as inner and outer master
We have guru Marahadji here in Nigeria who claims to be the living master of the time. Different individuals claiming to be the only true master of the time? How can this be possible?
Everyone cannot be telling the truth. If there is actually a living master of the time, then the others are lying . Funny enough they have all giving the same yardstick to judge who the true master is
Recently I tried joining one of Such groups through the recommendation of a friend but after attending their gathering a couple of times, I decided not to proceed further due to what I found out. Just the same thing Living master thing. I believe it would have been a waste of time.
I do not think there is any God the has mandated anyone to be its representative. This is my position
BetterChurch: "These gods have invaded other religions, both East and West, creating the belief that each religion has the original truth it has been able to give out to its followers. These negative powers, however, are only servants to man, although millions worship them in spite of their subordinate position. They each perform a certain function in carrying on the work of the world, in producing human bodies and in keeping these bodies going. They are only the agents of the Sugmad and not gods to be worshiped. They are almost menials in the grand spiritual hierarchy, but each has certain powers and prerogatives, and within his own sphere he is all-powerful. Each must carry on according to the definite laws and rules which are laid down for his government. These are laws of nature; and the trinity—no matter in what religion it may be represented—as Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, may be regarded as servants of the Kal Niranjan, the negative power. Lower than these three, there is another current of power, or god, who is the working force helping to carry on the administration of the physical universe. His Hindu name is Ganesh, but other religions give him different names. He stands almost at the foot of the ladder of subordinates whose business is to serve mankind and help carry on the work of the world. Therefore, as it is seen, man worships the wrong gods; for all religions, whether or not they deny it, are pantheistic, which means many gods. Metaphysics, occultism, orthodox religion, and witchcraft deal with the minor gods of the hierarchy. This also includes the elementals and angelic forces in the lower scales of the hierarchy, who dwell in the subtle regions close to the earth. These great hosts of beings are called devas, devtas, bhuts, prets, and by other names. They are beings somewhat above the ordinary man, and they help to serve man in many ways. They have great power and are quite willing to help those individuals who are in harmony with them. Man is the in-between being, between the spiritual hierarchy and the lowest of the beings: the beasts of the fields, fowls of the air, creatures of the seas, the elements of the soil. But if he works in harmony with all of those powers above him, he will surely receive their help and will eventually rise to the position where he will meet with the Mahanta, the Living ECK Master and then succeed in returning to the heavenly world, his true home."
—The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
The inner cosmology which is described in the above quote is something that is similar to what I have read elsewhere.
From what I have found out, there are hundreds if not thousands of groups claiming to have the authentic description of this inner region and also having a living master whose duty is to take souls at the point of death to its true home.
I think it is an impossible situation to have several individuals claiming to be the only true representative of God at the same time. That is assuming this God actually exist
How do we know who is telling the truth or how have you been able determine if the discription given and your master is the authentic one? This question I have asked you and still continue ask
If you reply with another quote from your religious text then I will assume you do not have any evidence of your own, even if it is experience that you have had, to support what you believe in
BetterChurch: "But the Sugmad was not yet pleased with what It had created, so closing Its eyes It dreamed again. This time It formed the spiritual hierarchy of all the universes. "The hierarchy began with the Sugmad, followed by the ECK, and the Mahanta. After this came the Living ECK Master, the Adepts of the Order of the Vairagi, the lords of each plane within the higher worlds, the guardians of the Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad, and then the lower worlds were formed for those entities named the Atma, or Soul. "Over these worlds, which are three in number, It placed the Kal Niranjan, lord of all the negative worlds. With this, It formed the Kal force, which originated and flows out of the Niranjan as its source. Subordinate to the ECK, the Kal, however, takes precedence over all life in the lower worlds. But it is still subject to the will of the Sugmad."
—The Shariyat-Ki-Sugmad
You have not giving me the answer I wanted.. I want to know how you got to confirm sugmad as the name of God and what makes it special.
What you replied is obviously a quote from what seems your religious book. I have read it but it has not answered my question.
BetterChurch: SUGMAD is a very special name for God commonly used by the ancient Order of the Vairagi Adepts. The head of the Order is always the Living ECK Master of the times.
What makes it special? and the variagi adepts who are they?
OpenYourEyes1: Well, I would say thesame thing to anyone who hear things if this had never happened to me.
The reason you insist on this is because you don't understand fully what created those experiences for you I have experienced something similar to your kind of experience. Initially I thought it was real until I decided to speak with someone who I believe knew better. Thank God I did and I have never had that kind of experience again. This is the reason I adviced you previously to seek professional help or speak with someone you think may have experience on this sort of thing. It is only when a professional cannot identify any reason for your experience before you can now start looking for any kind of Spiritual explanation But from the pattern (grandiose and exaggerated claims) which has emerged from your story I suspect what you had was a psychotic episode. Nearly everyone has experienced this sort of thing. For some persons the episodes are usually severe
Hard drugs, certain prescription, bipolar
disorder and the reading and viewing of certain materials which can programme you with fear are some of things which can result in psychotic episodes. If the cause was due to what you read or watch then the solution is simple. Discontinue reading or watching immediately but if medical then medication and counseling is the way to go. The earlier the better
And finally do you really believe you caused the internet to shut down? did youhave any confirmation from the engineers in charge of the internet that something mysterious which they cannot explain happened on that particular day to make you arrive at this conclusion? If you have any such outer evidence please share it.
The one in your op and others you have been exposed to
And would also like to warn you that your statements that you caused the internet to shut down and heard voices in your head are psychological disturbing
Don't hide your experience share it with someone you think is experienced enough to counsel you
You are the only one that can interpret or understand this reoccurring dream. Don't allow anyone do it for you. There is nothing spiritual about it or to be afraid of. The dream simply reflect your habitual thought. Maybe there is something in your life that is bothering you but you are unwilling to confront it. This has created a conflict which your dream is now reflecting. It could also be that you procrastinate a lot. You keep things till the last moment before doing them. Dreams of seeing yourself going back to your former school to sit for an exam without being able to finish or have anything to write may reflect your feelings of unpreparedness concerning something you have to do in your outer life.
The above may help in understanding the dream or you can ignore it all if it does not apply. Once you can unravel what in your outer life that is the cause the dream will cease to bother you or will stop
Have you considered seeing a professional counselor? You may get help thete
[quote author=Originakalokalo post=79662778]We are not bothering about demons. People need to know about their operations.
Your explanation of their operations is not of any importance since we have the ability to think our thoughts and make our decisions. Except you cannot think for yourself only then should you be worried I also think you should first of all understand the operation of the physical which you can see before trying to understand what you cannot see
Finally, I believe you are trying to create a fictitious world populated by demons who control humans in order to give a sort of validity to your religious beliefs
Originakalokalo: We are not bothering about demons. People need to know about their operations.
Serving God is done with the help of the holy spirit.
But don't forget that one can have the holy spirit and choose not to obey him.
"Do not vex the holy spirit"
Your explanation of their operations is not of any importance since we have the ability to think our thoughts and make our decisions. Except you cannot think for yourself only then should you be worried I also think you should first of all understand the operation of the physical which you can see before trying to understand what you cannot see
Finally, I believe you are trying to create a fictitious world populated by demons who control humans in order to give a sort of validity to your religious beliefs
Originakalokalo: Read well...They project the thought into you and you accept by your free will. You have the choice to say No.
But you don't say know eventually because of pleasures or immediate gain.
If we have the choice to say no, then why worry about demons? I think we should focus on learning or teaching people how to make the right choices and not bothering about demons
And also, if we can avoid sin on our own then we don't need God or the holy spirit
I think you are deviating from the premise of your op
Originakalokalo: My threads centre on sin, salvation, God, prophesies, demons, etc.
Check them well.
But the recent ones focus on the theme of demonology and from what I observed your argument seem to be that if demons don't exist there would be no evidence for God or that the presence of demons(which you have not actually provided any valid evidence for) proves that your God is real and your religion the correct one However I expected you to respond to the argument in my previous post. You have not
So here again, if demons can easily inhabit humans and easily control them, where then is free will?
I have followed this tread and others your have created and have observed that everything centers on demons
It is obvious you are unaware that believing or thinking that demons are controlling your mind or those of others around you is symptomatic of a psychological condition called possession syndrome. Individuals who are experiencing this are advised to seek professional help
Those who believe it is actual demons or it is spiritual attack due to religious indoctrination usually do not heed this advise and If help is not sought on time it may progress to a point when it becomes difficult to extricate themselves from it
At this stage everything around them becomes demons infested. Craze don start be dat o
The overriding factor in life is free will. If demons can easily inhabit humans and make them act and say things which they would ordinary not do, then there is nothing like free will. It means you have called your God a liar. Or don't we have free will as humans?
Ifa is the Wisdom of Olodumaré as a way of life. It must be practiced in every thing you do To be an aborisa (avatar of orisha), you have to LIVE IT.
A true devotee of the orisa exposes their devotion in the name they give themselves, in the clothes they cover their sacred bodies with, in the language they communicate to their community with, in the food they nourish their bodies with, in the values they organize their society with, in the tools they educate their children with, the places they chose to gather in, the medicine they heal their bodies with, and the ancestral wisdom they empower their minds with. You must be so full of Ifa, that you bleed Ifa.
On the matter of magic.
Orunmila's teaches are explicit that the only "witchcraft" that exists is psychological. This is powerful if you are susceptible but it is not actually witchcraft. They caste spells on you thru your psychology by exposing you to self-destructive images meant to subliminally induce fear and panic. This is why you should control the images you let people expose you to (especially from the media and their school system). This is the only way they enter your mind and influence you; not "witchcraft."
I think it would be difficult for those who have come to see witchcraft as real to accept it is psychological manipulation
I also doubt if your post would make any sense to such persons. Your explanations are way beyond what most people in this environment can comprehend and accept . What they know about witchcraft comes from the misinformation and lies peddled by those masquerading as men of God and some fraudsters claiming to be spiriitualist
There was a time I was almost a victim of such manipulation but for a knowledgeable man I ran to who had a perfect understanding of what I was experiencing then, I am sure I would have been undone by it. He made me to see that it was not real. Although, initially I found difficult to accept his simple explanation but some days later the realization of the truth of what he told me dawned on me and the experience ended just as it came
Since that time, more than twenty years ago I have been avoiding any environment that would expose me to such experience. These include Churches, spiritualist, and superstitious people. They really do not know the problems they may have created or are creating for some persons
People have been left mentally confused some have committed suicide or contemplating it. Once an individual comes to fully accept that he or she is under witchcraft attack and believes it is real, the 'nightmare' would not end if their is no way to understand what is actually happening. Going to prayers houses and meeting people who lack understanding would only help to reinforce the illusion.
abijaofficial: The Church has a big parking space in its compound but since it is not enough others park by the road side , there are always law enforcement agents on ground to direct members on where to park their cars . The Judge in question only comes home once in a while because her station is not in the state.
Then it may be possible one of the cars parked by the road side could have blocked her right of way and since service was in progress at that time it may be difficult know immediately who parked by the road side I am sure this may have caused annoyance and led to the altercation
Well, I am just speculating. At this moment no one knows exactly what happened and I may want to agree with you it's not the noise. I know of many redeem churches that are sound proof .
abijaofficial: I attend that Church , i can authoritatively tell you that the Redeemed Christian Church of God Glory tabernacle at Ijapo does not have outside loud speakers and the doors are sound proof so no one hears the noise from outside !
Does the church have enough parking space?
Is it possible that a car from those attending is parked in a way that it obstructed her right of way and she became impatient because she could not get anyone to remove the car immediately?
Whatever the case the poor old woman does not deserve such violence from the judge
Hati13: Thank you! Is your God aka source of energy had no beginning?
I hope you have you have not misunderstood me
I never said my God or there is a God called source energy. I only used the term to describe what I think God represents and I did mention that it is a borrowed term.
To answer your question, I would say since it is the source of all it should not have a beginning. Beginnings and endings are features associated with physical manifestations. However if it has any kind of beginning I would not know
My type of God is the one I refer to as source energy
The expression source energy is a borrowed term which perfectly describes what I think God is. This energy is responsible for everything in existence. I do not think God or source energy needs any form of worship. God or source energy is not human and for this does not need worship
Your second question is difficult for me to answer. I do not know how 'God' created the world but I believe the world and everything in it began at a point in the distant past. I believe the beginning was triggered by source energy
Is there and afterlife? Based on an experience I had in the past I believe there is an afterlife. I can't tell you the exact nature of the afterlife as I have not had much experience. Nobody goes to hell. We are all parts of source energy. This means that if we are sent to hell God has sent himself to hell.
Is it possible to make contact with source energy (God)? Yes. Imagination, thought and emotions are the tools with which we can make contact. Prayers, though it incorporate thoughts and emotions, is not too effective due to the concept of God that is petitioned
Miracles are natural phenomenon. It really does not have anything to do with God answering your prayers However it helps to believe in a God answering your prayers as it helps to deepen your belief which can lead to a miracle. If you are familiar with the placebo affect and how it is used in modern medicine, you would get to understand better how miracles can be triggered by belief. So I believe in miracles but not to the extent of living for a miracle in other to prove or glorify a deity. It is waste of time and energy
fratermathy: Jesus was not a member of AMORC as AMORC is just one of the modern paths of Rosicrucianism Jesus was influenced by Rosicrucian ideals. That is my opinion in this.
Sorry if say you are being evasive by saying that it's your opinion that Jesus was influenced by rosicrucian ideas
I have read Spencer's Mystical life ofJesus and except you tell me that what is contain therein has been dispensed with, it would difficult to accept that it's just your opinion and not to a certain extent the official position of amorc that Jesus was influenced by rosicrucian ideas
Eckankar, if you are familiar with that group, has claimed that Jesus was not only influenced by its teachings but was actually an initiate who attained the christ consciousness as a second initiate. Jesus master according to Ecankar was Zadok. He was said to have trained Jesus in the secret doctrine of Ecankar
Whom do we believe? Amorc, Ecankar or your 'opinion' ?
IAmSabrina: Cc. LordReed, budaatum, Martinez39, triplechoice, Dantedasz
*slow clap*
I'm going to give you credit for finally showing us another video besides SCOAN (something i've been asking you to do). Not just that, but going online to finally dig up the video of an atheist being "exorcised" (something i didn't think you'd do). This alone deserves my response. That being said, i still don't see anything supernatural in this video. You can call me stubborn, but i just don't.
First of all, we see from the films that he took hours with him, sizing him up, getting his personal information. Psychics will do that and then, after buildup, repeat back details of what you've told them as if these were revelations, hooking you on the accuracy of their skills. Then there's techniques of hypnotism such as repetition and focusing on objects. There's the force of his personality. There's accurate diagnoses of his problems because he can use the techniques that work for astrologers and psychics and snake oil salesmen- cold reading that sounds specific to the subject but really are likely to apply to everyone- Do you feel a spiritual void? Do you feel there are things you want to stop doing but are compelled to do anyway such as drinking too much or smoking or overeating or having sex with the wrong people?
Given the right pattern, the right amount of conviction, these things work on enough people to keep psychics and faith healers in business. Not to mention, i'm familiar with John Safran. I've watched his videos where he practices rituals from multiple religions and he seems like a highly susceptible individual. It would be harder to pull on someone who isn't predisposed to see you as an authority. But it's easier to pull on someone who hasn't experienced it enough before to recognize the patterns and techniques.
If you go back, you'll remember i said this a few posts back: "Possession" only seems to occur within religions that embrace the idea that it can happen. "Possession" also seems to take place among people who are highly susceptible and are overly-pious. It seems that when the mind starts to twist due to other factors, the environment in which the subject is contributes to the phenomenon. So clearly, you can see i haven't changed goalposts and my point still stands
This reminded me of Richard Dawkins trying on the so-called "God Helmet" and having no results from it. Turns out the machine was largely a measure of how susceptible to the power of suggestion that people were (it also didn't work on the clergy member that tried the device too--though it worked for, so people claim, some 70% of users)
Also, as far as i know, John is still an atheist. Surely he should have changed his position. So wetin Bob gain?
Once again, this is my final post. You better dig up something better than this if you want my response In a way, this was fun! Thanks
He is unwilling to learn anything.. He does not take is time to read any replies the reason he continues to repeat the same questions
shadeyinka: Your argument if I get you well is that: 1. Christian subjects are willing participants in the hypnosis 2. Highly creative/imaginative people are easy subjects of hypnosis (Jim Iyke as a good example) 3. The environment is designed in such a way as to present a subliminal imagery to predispose subjects to hypnosis.
1. If you listened to Interviews with Jim Iyke after the episode, he wasn't a willing participant at all. He didn't even want to enter the church for he came for a different purpose "his mother's healing". Watch his tape. 2. I partially agree on you with your point 2. It is very difficult hypnotizing a dummy. The higher your imagination ability the better. BUT, this works only when such put himself deliberatly under the hypnoist.
If you watched the deliverance of Jim Iyke from the beginning, HE WAS JUST HIT on the CHEST. And then all the gymnastics started. (It looks like scoan pulled down the full video: can't find it).
AND, all hypnosis need the subject to be prepped before bring put in the state. You may need to watch more videos to unravel how scoan preps their subject.
3. What specifically is special about the environment? The average Catholic church have 10 times more. How come deliverance don't occur there as often. Do I show you Deliverances done in the STADIUM? Would that clear the air for you?
Finally, if you know a little about hypnosis, you will know that it is the hypnoist who suggests the state the subject should be in. How come in this deliverances, no such is taking place.
The "subject" contrary to what happens in hypnosis seem to want to resist the "hypnoist" and has to say or do things under duress. Do you have an answer to this: cause it is contrary to what happens in hypnosis
I don't know what happened to you but with due respect, it is you who need to question things around you. There are so many things that doesn't have scientific explanations.
You keep repeating the same questions which I have already provided answers for.
Others have also provided enough explanations for you to understand what is actually taking place in those videos uploaded. It is either you don't take your time to read them or simply are unable to understand
I will just try to explain as clearly as possible what is actually happening in those videos . I don't know the exact methods used, but fear, anxiety, anger, excitement and any other kind of positive or negative emotions has been induced. Once these is achieved they easily shift into an altered state of consciousness which set the stage for a complete take over of their minds. It does not matter whether you are a willing participant or not. This is advance hypnosis technique which is not open to the public and it works. Whether you believe it or not. They only way to protect yourself is to stay away from such places.
By the time they stand in from of the deliverance minister they are ready to be plucked. Then shock is apllied by. suddenly hitting them on the head or any part of the body to achieve a final to take over of their mind, once this happens the brain slate is temporarily wiped clean and suggestions can then be inputted to make act accordingly. Demons talking through them barking like dog, meowing like a cat and just anything. At the end of the deliverance when the are brought back to full consciousness they don't remember anything.
This is the scientific explanation provided byprofessionals who have studied this phenomenon. You can do your research to disprove this
Although this method can put to good use, it is currently being abused. It is not only the Church that is involved in this. A lot of organizations are secretly using other forms of it to influence people whether for good or bad
As to why it doesn't not happen in catholic churches, the simple answer is they do not use it or hardly use it
So an orthodox church is safe to attend.
, It does not mean that those who use this methods in churches really understand what they are doing. They do it because it is what they have learnt from others and it works. Healings can be achieved but it is usually temporary a few are permanent.
Demons are not responsible for anything. This has nothing to do with denying God. I am not an atheist neither do I attend any church
, I have question for you.. Before the coming of Christianity to Africa, was the African possessed by demons? If he was, how was he delivered?
shadeyinka: If it was hypnosis, how come no hypnoist has the kind of reaction seen in Deliverance in their shows?
If it was hypnosis, when was Jim Iyke peeped?
You don't know anything about hypnosis. Period!
I guess you should listen to Jim Iykes narrative of the event preceding his mission behaviour then come back and tell me how you think he was peeped for hypnosis!
BTW, if you knew a tiny fog about hypnosis, you should be able to tell us the method of hypnosis used. We can now all look at the method and agree with your diagnosis. SMH
The reason for the different outcome is that clinical or stage hypnotist have to deal with subjects who are either sceptical or afraid of the idea of being hypnotised. The deliverance minister has no such impediment. Subjects are not told what is being done to them. It is not called hypnosis but deliverance. But the techniques are the same, under a deliverance minister, the subject,----the person to be delivered----does not have any problem in accepting to be hypnotised or delivered. This explains why such persons are usually wild open and are easily y manipulated..Another factor is the environment. The atmosphere in a church gathering also aid the outcome
There are certain individuals who are highly susceptible to hypnosis., They do not need much or any priming to be put in a trance. One category of such people are those who engage in any form of creativity and are very good at it. They can employ their imagination in their tasks while being temporarily oblivious of their immediate environment. The can easily blend fantasy with reality. Jim iyke being an actor falls into this category, The people who operate in that church know what they are doing. I am sure this explains why they wanted him at all costs to come out for delivarance.. They know he is a perfect subject
The designed of that church, the Iimageries on the wall, the light system and other things I do nor want to talk about are part of the things that immediately put you into a trance when you step into that place
I have been ensnared in your kind of situation before. It took something out of the ordinary to pull me out of it.. Be bold and question what is happening around you. That is the only way you can see things clearly and be free
Everything I have written is insipired from having gone through the same thing. If tb Joshua is not the same then it isyour duty to convince me with facts that I am wrong. But for now I stand on hypnosis as my explanation
shadeyinka: Is it demons that make people drink alcohol, commit fornication etc. Not really at least not all the time!
The fact that a man is delivered from a particular demon does not mean he cannot live as he wills. It's a choice. Let me explain it to you:
If I went to the hospital to treat my diarrhea but I return home to eat my leftover food from unhygienic pots, plates l, water and kitchen. What would be my state?
That is why Jesus said: when you chase an unclean spirit out of a person, the spirit will go and come back more strongly if it discovers that the man is empty of God.
But the issue isn't this: The issue is about what is the correct scientific designation for what befell Jim Iyke is!
Then we can till out the issue of spirits!
I think this is a fair deal.
The scientific explanation for what happened to Jim Iyke is hypnosis
You claimed to know something about hypnosis but I have not seen any evidence in your several post on this thread to suggest you have practiced. Theory is not enough to understand how a thing works. I am not an adept on hypnosis but from what I know and have practiced, Jim was subjected to a subtle but powerful form of hypnosis.
If you know something of hypnosis and cannot see what happened to Jim Iyke, then I doubt what you know or maybe, sorry to say this, your religious indoctrination is the problem you have from seeking things clearly. The idea that demons can possess humans is church dogma and not the truth
MuttleyLaff: triplechoice dont waste your breath with alBHAGDADI and Ihedinobi3, that is well constructed and truthful post
About alBHAGDADI saying Daddy Freeze attacked Pastor Kumuyi over his statement that women who wear men's wears are an abomination unto God and saying that such is found in the Bible, before then quoting Deuteronomy 22:5, I have already on a different thread, asked him to please and kindly in a way that a two year old can understand, that's if at all if he really does know, soon explain to us, the reason behind why, in the Bible, God said cross dressing is an abomination to Him and that women should abstain from wearing what belongs to men, likewise men what belongs to women, but this request seems to be hard and difficult for him to give answers to?
I have already decided to discontiue the aguement. It is obvious the op is seeing things from a different position than mine. I cannot force him to see things from my point of view
alBHAGDADI: Stop trying to be clever, it makes you sound confusing and dubious.
Since when did the words entice and coerce become synonymous that you are attributing entice to mean rape? No dictionary gives the idiom lay hold to mean suddenly or forcefully for one to conclude that it means rape
Look below to see another place where the Bible made use of the idiom Lay Hold. Does it mean I'm raping eternal life when Paul said I should lay hold on to eternal life?
1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
The Bible was not written for a particular people of a particular period. Stop injecting your own ideology into the Bible, thereby speaking what the Bible never said. For your information, the Bible was mainly written for we the people of today who are in the end time period.
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
This means that if we christians see rape as bad and that a victim should not marry the rapist, then it means that that's how God has always viewed it right from the old testament because he changeth not.
Malachi 3:6 (KJV) For I am the L ORD , I change not;
You even act ridiculous when you say God ordered for a victim to marry her rapist. Didn't you see the verse in the OP which states that a rapist should be killed and the victim freed? But here you are saying that God said a rapist should live and even be rewarded with his victim. That means if I see a beautiful girl way beyond my league, the best way to get her is to rape and be rewarded with her as my wife. Junk judgment which can only come from man, not God.
I still insist that you do not fully understand what rape means or how it is carried out.
If an adult enticed or coerced a minor to have sex, it is seen as statutory rape. At that age the victim is not matured enough to give valid consent. This means that even if the victim agrees it is still regarded as rape. That is the position of the law
Also, in certain circumstances it does not matter if the victim is an adult. If she is boxed into a corner and she as no option but to accede to the enticement or coercion it is still rape. Some individuals in position of authority are guilty of this. Either through promise of promotion or threat of sack
As for you not understanding what - - lay hold of-means in the different context, well the fault is yours and not mine. Except you are trying to be evasive, I do not want to believe that you destitute of the idea of context meaning
It is not my ideology that the Bible was written for a particular period. Every evidence points to the fact that it was so. However, that is not to say it does not contain things which are timeless
Finally, I never mentioned that God ordered anything. I said it was a cultural thing and nothing to do with God
alBHAGDADI: Yesterday, I came across a thread which shows Daddy Freeze attacking Pastor Kumuyi over his statement that women who wear men's wears are an abomination unto God. Such is found in the Bible...
Deuteronomy 22:5 (KJV) The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the L ORD thy God.
Reacting to the biblical sound doctrine, Daddy Freeze stated that Pastor Kumuyi is wrong because the old law has been done away by Jesus Christ who died on the cross. I ask, did Jesus die so that men can now wear makeup and skirts with brassieres like cross-dressers? Jesus didn't she'd his blood for you to disobey his commandments, neither has God stopped seeing abomination as abomination. That's a whole another sermon anyway.
Daddy Freeze further stated that if Pastor Kumuyi must obey the verse against cross-dressing, then he must also tell people to obey the verse that says ''women should marry their rapist".
My head sparked when I saw the statement from him which he even buttressed with a birthday verse seen below.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 New International Version (NIV) If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
An untrained Bible student will believe him and the verse above, but we that know that Satan has his own Bibles littered everywhere will not be fooled by the idea behind the above verse. The verse is clearly saying that our God who is merciful and a righteous judge will punish a lady by forcing her to marry the wicked human who raped her and took away her virginity.
First and foremost, let's remember that Satan boasted that he will be like the Most High God. Should we be surprised when we hear that he has created his own Bible too? It is from that Bible that Daddy Freeze quoted from which is the NIV. Not only is the NIV Satan's book, but also all these other new and modern versions which distort the word of God. The only true word of God out there today is the King James Version KJV, and that's where I will be waiting from to show you that God never supports rape.
You see, that law in Deutoronomy is still the same law seen in Exodus. Let's see how the NIV puts it down in Exodus.
Exodus 22:16-17 New International Version (NIV) “If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins.
Compare it with how they put it down in Deutoronomy.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV) If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
As seen above, they are the same laws because they speak of a virgin, not betrothed, bride price etc. But in their intentional mistake, they put rape in one and seduce in another. Let's see how the King James puts it.
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 King James Version (KJV) 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
Exodus 22:16-17 (KJV) And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
Some might quickly think the phrase 'lay hold on her' means rape. No it doesn't. Laying hold on a woman is part of the process of sex. When you have sex with your wife, don't you lay hold on her? Or are you going to be doing it from a distance with Bluetooth? As if the Bible knew some folks will get it twisted, God repeated the same law in Exodus to show he doesn't mean rape but consensual sex. That's why in Exodus it says "if a man entice". Even the NIV uses the word seduce. Isn't it pretty clearly that the sex was consensual? The lady fell for the seduction which means she wasn't forced. How NIV and all these modern versions decided to use the word rape in another verse where the law was repeated is what baffles me. It is clearly to confuse people and make them think God was cruel in the old testament.
God never supported rape. He even ordered for rapists to be killed and the victim spared.
Deuteronomy 22:25-26 King James Version (KJV) But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
The NIV says the same thing.
Deuteronomy 22:25-26 New International Version (NIV) But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor,
So, how come the NIV said the victim must marry her rapist in another verse? Isn't it confusing? This is clearly a mistranslation done by Satan so that his agents can attack the word of God and Christians.
When the Bible says a man lay hold onto a woman and laid with her, it doesn't mean rape but consensual sex. The same Bible clearly spelt out what rape is when it said the rapist should be stoned if the woman cries out. But if shoe doesn't, then it means they both consented to it.
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 King James Version (KJV) If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
Now, where in the below verse does it say that a father should collect bride price after his daughter has cried out of rape?
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 King James Version (KJV) 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
As seen above, the man marries the girl because it was consensual sex which she fell for after his seductive games. But below is pure rape because he forced her, that's why he's ordered to be killed and the lady is not ordered to marry him.
Deuteronomy 22:25-26 King James Version (KJV) But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
This is why you need to stick with the King James Version only. Other versions have been perverted by Satan who has been attacking the word of God right from the Garden of Eden. He has not changed today.
Read link below to see more lies from all these modern Bible versions.
You do not understand what it means to rape someone. The use of physical force is not the only means.
If you entice and coerce a victim, especially a minor, and succeed in having your way, it is rape
The idiom - - - lay hold of--- does not mean touching lightly or any kind of pre-intimacy as you tried to explain.. It means to grab someone or something suddenly and forcefully. To act in such a manner towards your wife each time you want to have sex throws consent away. In certain climes your wife can sue you for rape
However, if we understand that the Bible was written for a group of people during a particular period in the past, then we can find no problem with the command to marry a rape victim. At that time, if a woman is not a virgin she is ostracized and nobody marries her. So to protect victims of rape from such treatment it was the correct thing to force the perpetrator to marry the victim. It is a cultural thing and nothing to do with God
Christianity Etc › Re: The Spiritual Hierarchy by triplechoice(m): 3:22pm On Nov 07, 2019
