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Christianity Etc › Re: Design An Anti-Tithe Tract for £50 by trustman: 8:11am On Jul 16, 2014

NativeBoy: Much has been made about tithing here on NL. It is definitely true that many pastors have used the concept of tithing to intimidate their congregation into giving. That notwithstanding does not mean that Christians shouldn't tithe.

... ... ... ... ....

Also, we see how big of a deal it is to God. So how tithe, there is a powerful biblical principle that runs straight through the Bible, from OT to NT.

1. Was circumcision a 'big deal' to God? Did he make it a 'big deal' for the church?
2. Can you show where this 'powerful biblical principle' was prescribed for THE CHURCH?
3. IF tithing is still applicable, how does God's Word say it should be done?

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Christianity Etc › Re: .:: Non-tithers Are Criminals ::. by trustman: 9:36pm On Jul 15, 2014

donhils: listen, quoting so many bible verses is not what will convince us that you actually know what you are saying. when you read all these places, do you actually read in context? or you just pick one verse and read? do yourself a favour when they (pastors) quote these verses for you, try reading some verses above and below it so you'll understand very well. Running a church needs money so pastors look for a way to take it From members. suddenly everybody starts quoting old testament.

If the Bible quoted will not convince you, then whose report are you believing?

3 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 4:36pm On Jul 13, 2014

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F5: The Distortion of the Cross[/size]

The cross is central to the Christian faith. No wonder then that it is one if the most attacked issues by cults and religions.

WoF teachings about the cross happen to include 'stories' that are not substantiated by the Bible.

Again these teachings originated with E. W. Kenyon (who was influenced by New Thought Metaphysics) from whom we have seen that Kenneth Hagin derived most of his own 'doctrines'. Kenyon taught, among other things, that man is a little god "in God's class" and so can use the same faith-force that God does; a teaching we have looked at in F4.

From Hagin, who popularized Kenyon and added to his theological deviations, other WoF preachers such as Kenneth Copeland, Charles Capps, Fredrick Price, Benny Hinn and company enlarged the deviations.

Kenyon is quoted to have written: "Since sin and sickness are purely spiritual, mere physical death could never atone, nor could it deal with the source of sin and sickness: Satan".

WoF teachers' theory about the cross is that when Jesus died on the cross he became "sin" and was imputed with Satan's nature, abandoned by the Father, and went to hell for three days and three nights where he was tortured by the devil. According to most of the well known WoF teachers, Jesus did not complete his work of redemption upon the cross. Nowhere in the Bible is that taught nor the story that Jesus was tormented by Satan in hell.

When Jesus told the thief in the cross "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise" was he referring to a punishment by (or a wrestling match with) Satan in hell? When Jesus said "It is finished" was it a cry of anguish or a proclamation of victory?

If Jesus took on the nature of Satan, that will no longer make him the "... Lamb without blemish or spot" (Hebrews 9:14, 1 Peter 1:19). That would have meant that he did not qualify to purchase our eternal redemption.

The Scripture is clear that Christ's work was done AT THE CROSS - "He himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, ..." (1Peter 2:24). It was the offering of himself to God that paid for our sins, not winning a wrestling match in hell over Satan. It was God that needed to be appeased; no one else.

Lets look at a few statements by WoF preachers on this:
Kenneth Copeland
"When Jesus cried "It is finished!" he was not speaking of the plan of redemption. There were still three days and nights to go through before he went to the throne. He was referring to the Abrahamic Covenant. Jesus death on the cross was only the beginning of the complete work of redemption" ( Kenneth Copeland, "Jesus - Our Lord of Glory", Believer's Voice of Victory, April 1982, page3).

Fred Price
"Do you think that the punishment for our sin was to die on a cross? If that were the case, the two thieves could have paid our price. No, the punishment was to go into hell itself and to serve time in hell separated from God" (Frederick K.C. Price, Ever Increasing Faith Messenger, June 1990, p. 7)

This false doctrine has also been expressed by Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyers and other WoF teachers at one time or another.

Why is this teaching wrong?
The teaching is wrong because the Bible teaches something different. See what 'the cross' did for us:
Rev. 1:5b - "To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood"

1 Peter 2:24 - "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed"

Heb. 13:12 - "Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate"

Colossians 2:14 - "by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross."

Colossians 1:20 - "and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

Philipians 2:8 - "And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

Ephesians 1:7 - "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,"

Galatians 6:14 - "But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."

Clearly Jesus' work was done on the cross. The statement Jesus made on the cross " It is finished!" is said to be a single word in the Greek which means that what is finished stands finished for all eternity. It means in layman's terms, that it was a 'done deal'. It means the payment for man's sin debt was done in full. The matter was settled there and then - finalized.

I REST MY CASE ON F5

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 3:29pm On Jul 12, 2014

[size=14pt]Is there a need to write/speak against some practices of the WoF movement today? [/size]

Many Christians trust popular WoF preachers as people who are giving then Biblical truths. Where and when such teachings are actually in opposition to the Scripture these trusting followers are being misled into errors. They will therefore live their spiritual lives based on error and falsehood rather than the truth. The result should be obvious to any unbiased mind.

No well-meaning believer will doubt that there is the need to set believers free from a wrong spiritual mindset so they can live the Christian Way of Life as Christ intended it to be. Living outside God's prescribed way leads to the believer eventually losing out on what should have been his - "Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward" (2 John 1: cool

.

Wrong teachings not only deny the believer of a fruitful and impactful life here on earth but also of eternal rewards which surpasses anything they can have in this life. Man-made traditions, distorted teachings, and the like, have always been obstacles to the true spiritual life the Christian is to live in Christ.

The Bible is full of warnings to keep off, reject, discern (and use of similar language) wrong teachings:
Acts 17:11- "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true"

Romans 16:17 - "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which Ye have learned; and avoid them"

1 Corinthians 4:6 - "I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another."

2 Corinthians 6:17 - "Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,"

Galatians 1:8-9 - "8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed."

Ephesians 5:11 - "Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them."

Philippians 1:9-11 - "
9 And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment,
10 so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ,
11 filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God."

1 Thessalonians 5:21 - "but test everything; hold fast what is good."

2 Thessalonians 3:6 - "Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us."

2 Timothy 3:5-7 - "5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
6 For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions,
7 always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth."

Titus 1:9 - "He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it."

Titus 3:10 - "A man who is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject"(KJV).

2 Peter 2:1 - "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction."

1 John 4:1 - "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

2 John vs 10&11 - "10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting,
11 for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works."

There is therefore the need to provide information to help people identify the teachings that are contrary to sound doctrine and separate them from the pure Word of God. Keeping quiet, glossing over issues, refusing to 'hit the nail on the head' as it were will actually do more harm not only to the body of Christ but to a true witness to the world of who and what our God is.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 12:16am On Jul 11, 2014

[size=16pt]FINAL THOUGHTS ON F4: THE DEIFICATION OF MAN: The View That Christians Are Little "gods" [/size]

The idea that a creature can be ‘god’ is what led to Lucifer’s downfall. (Isaiah 14:14) He presented the same idea to Eve in Genesis 3:5. Throughout history this same idea is being repackaged and offered to man – that he can be ‘god’. The results of ‘the fall’ on man do not even seem to be appreciated by the WoF advocates.

WoF teachers teach that Christians are “little gods” based on mishandling of bible passages. That God reproduced himself or decided to make his creature equal to himself is a doctrine taught nowhere in the Bible. God created man, at least on this side of eternity, to be lower even than the angels – Psalm 8:5. What we are in relation to God is clearly shown in Scripture.

The Christian is being transformed; he is not a finished product yet. 1 John 3:2, 3 tells us – “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and [size=13pt]what we will be has not yet been made known[/size]. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 All who have this hope in him purify themselves, just as he is pure”.

Romans 12: 3 –“ For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him” (AMP).
- “For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you (NIV).

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Christianity Etc › Re: "Should I Be Disappointed In God,when It Looks As Tho He Doesn't Answer Prayers" by trustman: 7:55pm On Jul 10, 2014

The thread talks about the issue of disappointment to apparent unanswered prayer.
Some would claim they can always know and be in 'charge' of their situations so they would always have positive situations. Even when there are what appear to be contrary to their 'good' living they shrug it off. They then live in denial.
For example:
What state is "when a person gets attacked by sickness"?

- Is the person sick?
- Is the person suspecting (or having premonition) that he will be sick?
- Or is the statement "gets attacked" being stingy with words?

If such a person can "rule and dominate all the wiles of the devil" and can even do things "without even praying at all" then why should the attack even happen in the first place?

Has God completely ceded to man the control of his situations or does God HAVE THE RIGHT to intervene as he deems fit - either to allow pleasant or unpleasant things?

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 6:45pm On Jul 10, 2014

Image123: Jesus is Lord. i hardly said anything, why all this long tori for me only? i only addressed a part of anony's post and added a scripture passage to the mix. i wasn't answering any question or commenting on a bible verse. Draw your conclusion please, let's not unrail the thread, you know.

“Contend earnestly for the faith” – Jude 3

"11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible," - Ephesians 5: 11&13

"Yet this you have: you hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate." - Revelation 2:6

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 12:21am On Jul 10, 2014

DrummaBoy: [size=16pt]F4: A THOUGHT ON THE DEIFICATION OF BELIEVERS[/size]

One of the greatest blessings of sound preaching is that it brings light. Gospel preaching is not entertainment, it is not a "feel good" talk, it's not motivational speaking; neither is it a message of condemnation. Gospel preaching is light. You know you've heard the gospel when you leave with understanding. Such understanding that births strength in the inward man. It comes with renewed inner vigour and a richer appreciation of the works of Jesus on the cross - a renewed love for the Savior. Gospel preaching should also produce repentance and a God enabled commitment to new living. At the height of it all, true gospel preaching will leave the listener with a sense of indebtedness. Such that one cannot repay - so we leave with a great feeling of humility and thankfulness.

On the other hand, a message on the deity of a Christian produces fruits that are miles away from these. Where one is supposed to find humility, it is replaced with pride. Where you ought to find gratitude, the individual is full of pompous talk and boasts, imitating the minister whose message is forever annotated with anecdotes and fables - true and false. Were you ought to find repentance, there is a marked indifference to sin. In fact non Christians love such sermons because it helps build fleshly ego. Where there should be a clear picture of the cross, the listener remembers only the ministers stories and testimonies. The end result is disastrous, because then we have Christians running the street in name alone.

Romans 12 depicts the Christian lifestyle. After a rich evaluation of the cross of Christ and its blessing to the church, Paul in this chapter reminds us of practical Christian duties. Many of the things he said cannot be practised by the Christian who thinks he is a god. He commands believers not to mind high things but associate with men of low estate. A Christan who is a god cannot do this. He says that believers should not think of themselves above what they really are: so much for a doctrine that teaches believers are gods. He says Christians must not curse but bless. The very reason why Christians go cursing around is simply based a false belief that they are more than what they really are, they are gods, their words carry power and thus they can curse. It is a big shame. Paul ends that chapter by admonishing Christians to leave vengeance to God. A Christian who thinks he is a god does not need to obey this; he simply does what deities do: determine an awful judgement on those who offends him. I see how many of them behave; how these preachers talk. One of them went a-witch-slapping-crusade the other day. It's so demeaning.

Today it is the world that is reminding Christians how to behave. Since we no longer have role models in church. My father, who is still a Muslim, tells me that when Pentecostalism started in the early 70s with the SU revivals, they used to be critical of orthodox churches devotion to buildings, ecclesiastical clothing's and heriachies, and their all round "deadness". Today the Pentecostals, under the influence of WOF, are doing worse. Chief among these is the deity of the believer.

Someone wishes to know the extent of a Christians authority. Indeed our authority is derived first from who we are in Christ and our knowledge of these (that has nothing to do with deification of saints) and then our obedience. When the believer faces a situation of challenge, which can include satanic ones, God is faithful to his word to give us a mouth, a wisdom, a scripture and the anointing to still Satan in his tracks. This situation is very different from a situation where the Christian, with a warped understanding of his deity, walks the street, hands akimbo, thinking he can defeat all demons in hell. Stories abound of many who have seen their untimely deaths this way. We trust God to save us in a time of need; we have no confidence in ourselves. This is how Christians have lived for centuries and these are the examples we see in scripture. Nothing more.

The doctrine of the deification of the Christian is only one of the doctrines of demons we have today. It is however about the oldest doctrine because it was part of the message the devil preached to Eve that led to the fall of man. Unfortunately this is the gospel WOF will still have us believe.

The bolded does not seem to matter to WoF adherents. You show them Scripture rightly divided they refuse it. You show them how even in the lives of their proponents things don't work out exactly like they claim, they still find reasons to give. I guess when people have itching ears anything goes!

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Christianity Etc › Re: "Should I Be Disappointed In God,when It Looks As Tho He Doesn't Answer Prayers" by trustman: 12:13am On Jul 10, 2014

nlMediator: ^^^

Nothing in your post refuted what I said.

1. Sickness as the will of God. Peter said we should suffer. Did he mention sickness there as what we'd suffer? No. He said we should follow in Jesus' steps. Did Jesus suffer sickness? No. Obviously, you can't find one scripture that says that sickness is the will of God. And you have no answer to the assertion that if sickness is the will of God, James would be encouraging us to go against God's will by calling on the elders to pray over the sick to be healed.

2. Timing of death. My quarrel is that your position is that God determines the time of everyone's death, while I said He only does for some people He's given a special assignment. You have no scripture to back your position.

3. So people believing God to live long as He promised them is boasting to you? Feel free to believe what you want but I don't see the boast there. It's God's will for us to live long and so there's no contradiction with James.

Where Scripture is quoted and it is refused what does one ~~does~~ do?
To engage in long-winding exchanges?

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: "Should I Be Disappointed In God,when It Looks As Tho He Doesn't Answer Prayers" by trustman: 10:25pm On Jul 09, 2014

[quote author=nlMediator]

Many things are wrong with your post. I can only highlight a few as I don't have so much time to burn.

Really?

1. You introduce James 5 as evidence that sickness can be the will of God. Does that make sense to you? If it's God's will, why is James encouraging people to violate God's will? And why would God go against His will by answering the prayer of faith to heal the sick as James 5 says He would?

1 Peter 2:19-23, "19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
22 “He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”
23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly".

1 Peter 3: 17 "17 For it is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil".

1 Peter 4: 12, 16, 19 "12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you
16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.
19 So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good".

2. God determines the timing and manner of everyone's death. Can you provide just ONE verse in the Bible where God says that? I'm not interested in your assumptions, just what the Bible says. The truth is that God gives SOME people a special assignment and within it determines when and how they die. For the rest, He lives their length of stay on earth to a number of factors: the faith of the individual, prayers of the saints, lifestyle choices (smoking, drinking etc), environment, etc. God Himself said we can do some things to prolong or shorten our life. He said to honor your parents so you can live long. If He timed me to live for 30 years and I honor my parents and still die at 30, He has not kept His Word. If His timing is that I'll live for 90 years, but I live recklessly, dishonor my parents, etc, I can be sure that His timing will prevail? Simply put, why did God tell His children they can lengthen their days when that means nothing as He has already set the time? Is God frivolous? Is God a liar?

I said:

It is God who determines the TIMING [/b]and [b]MANNER (sickness, accident; peaceful, violent – Acts 7:58, Hebrews 11) of death of the Christian.

you said:

The truth is that God gives SOME people a special assignment and within it determines when and how they die.

So i'm not quite sure what you're quarreling with. You still state here that 'God ... ... determines when and how they die'. So?
However, see these: Psalm 31:15; John 21: 18 -22. v. 22 - "22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 'If i want' is an expression of WILL.

3. Faith leaders dying. None of them ever claimed they will never die. None of the ever claimed that people cannot succumb to sickness. All they keep on saying is that if you live by Faith, you'll get the results they're talking of. They are not immune from the principles they espouse. If they stop believing, it stops working for them. And you can't sit in your house and know if they kept believing or not. More importantly, using the principles they preached, and that you deride at every turn, they lived longer than anybody gave them a chance, even seeing their great grandchildren. Principles that work that far are to be celebrated, not denounced. And those of them alive continue to use it and are seeing the results. If they had followed your prescription, they'd have been long dead and buried.

See Acts 18:21 - "21 But as he left, he promised, “I will come back if it is God’s will.” Then he set sail from Ephesus".
James 4:13-17 - "13 Now listen, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money.” 14 Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15 [size=13pt][b]Instead[/size], you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” 16 As it is, you boast in your arrogant schemes. All such boasting is evil. 17 If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn’t do it, it is sin for them".[/b]

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Christianity Etc › Re: "Should I Be Disappointed In God,when It Looks As Tho He Doesn't Answer Prayers" by trustman: 2:56pm On Jul 09, 2014

On God’s Answer to Prayers
God DOES NOT ALWAYS respond positively (i.e. with a YES) to our prayer for something or our faith.
Paul prayed for the ‘thorn in the flesh’ to be removed. God responded; but it was with a NO! Paul pleaded with the Lord. HE DID NOT ADDRESS THE SITUATION (2 Cor. 12: 8, 9). Was Paul not matured enough to know the WILL of God without resorting to prayer? Why didn’t he rather address the situation if that is truly God’s system (God’s manner of approach for the believer).

On God’s WILL for the Christian
The Bible gives the general will of God for the Christian. Then, of course, God has his will for the individual believer. That WILL can include what may be regarded as ‘Negative’ such as suffering (including sickness and disease) and death.
In Revelation 2:10 Jesus Christ told those in the church in Smyrna “DO NOT BE AFRAID of what you are about to SUFFER”. So God’s will include permitting suffering in the life of the believer. Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that when a Christian is sick he should assume IT IS NOT God’s will Apostle James clearly showed us how we can approach prayer for the sick.

Is the Christian Omniscient?
There are things that, like death, are better left to the sovereignty of God. “the secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may DO ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW” (Deuteronomy 29:29).
Nowhere in the Bible are we told that the believer MUST necessarily KNOW or DECIDE the time of his death. It is God who determines the TIMING [/b]and [b]MANNER (sickness, accident; peaceful, violent – Acts 7:58, Hebrews 11) of death of the Christian. What matters is not this flesh. What matters is what counts for eternity; for the hereafter.
Stephen’s death in Acts 7 would be described by many today as ‘horrible’, ‘ghastly’, ‘gruesome’, or in such terms. But Jesus Christ literarily gave him a standing ovation. Why? Because through it all Stephen (like Job) glorified God. He kept the faith. He held his head high. Could Jesus Christ have saved Stephen? Yes. Did he save him? No. Why? Was it because Stephen did not ‘DECIDE’ to be saved? For those who may even think so (i.e. stand on the ground that he (Stephen decided NOT TO BE SAVED) how do you explain the standing ovation Jesus gave him?

The Sovereignty of God
When issues are left ONLY to man’s exercise of FAITH, the SOVEREIGNTY of God becomes relegated to the background. In other words, man’s actions are seen as being more important than God’s involvement in human affairs. The believer who thinks that God must accent to his will (or faith) is claiming to have greater wisdom and better plan than God. That is blasphemy! We DO NOT dictate to God. We go to him to ask for his grace. No Christian has the right to question the sovereignty of God.
No Christian ‘owns’ his life. He has been ‘bought with a price’ to ‘belong’ to another – God. He must therefore subject himself to and depend continually on his master.

On Exercise of Faith
Faith, for any issue or situation, should be in God or directed toward God and not ‘for’ or ‘to’ the situation. No Bible verse asks the Christian to have faith ‘for’ or ‘to’ a situation; it is always to be ‘in God’ or directed toward God.

Questions that need Consideration
• How come a number of foremost advocates for being in ‘control’ over situations have themselves (or their relatives) battled with sickness and disease and even death? What happened?
• Is the Christian free from issues that face other human? Look at this scenario: It rains continuously for days. The place where a Christian (or even a group of Christians) live, because of inadequate drainage or is low-lying gets flooded. Will he, simply because he is a Christian, be excluded from the others (unbelievers) in the neighborhood will face in having to battle with the flooding?

God’s positions on issues are clear from the Bible. What the Christian needs to do is to study to find them out and choose to align himself with them.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 8:48am On Jul 09, 2014

MrAnony1: This is a quick reply typed on my way to work.....I have been very busy of late: my response to F1 is still halfway typed since two sundays ago but it appears the thread has moved on. This is good.

I must say that I love what I have been reading and seriously, I don't think there is much I can add but upon reading our brother Ihedinobi's replies to the thread, I have decided to respond quickly so a to nip something in the bud before it becomes a huge flame.

@Ihedinobi, consider this question: If you saw your brothers sheep for whom Christ our shepherd gave his life being led killed by wolves in sheepskin. How would you warn them of the danger? Will you not expose the wolf?

These false teachers do not teach in secret, why then should we protect their identities? I believe it is upon us to bring to God's light both the false message and it's teachers so that our brethren are not ensnared by the evil message of death.

@Trustman and BabaGnoni, we must be careful not to have an "us vs them" mindset when someone asks us a question.

I beg you all; let us not allow this thread to devolve into a petty fight. It has been civil thus far. God bless y'all. Gotta run now

Thank you for your observations and suggestions.
We'll do our best.
I think we live in the days and times when Christians
have, and are still been 'programmed' to think differently
from how the Scripture will have them think. This is in reality grievous like BabaGnoni will say: I think it is EVIL.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 12:08am On Jul 08, 2014

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F4(Contd): THE DEIFICATION OF MAN: The View That Christians Are Little "gods" [/size]

Are Christians Little gods like Word of Faith Preachers proclaim?

“Contend earnestly for the faith” – Jude 3

You may have read it or watched it preached that ‘Ye Are Gods’

Is the teaching that men were created to be “gods” biblical?

The WoF proponents teach that God created man in “God’s class” and so as “little gods” man is cable of exercising power like God does.

See some of the claims by WoF teachers:
Benny Hinn: “… …You are a little god on earth running around”
Kenneth Copeland: “Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh”
Kenneth Copeland: “You don’t have a God living in you, you are one!”
Kenneth Hagin: “The believer is as much an incarnation as was Jesus of Nazareth”
Paul Crouch (TBN): “I am a little god! Critics be gone!”
Creflo Dollars: “ I’m going to say something, WE are gods, in this earth, and it’s about time we start operating like gods instead of a bunch of mere powerless humans”

The Scriptural Position
The Bible clearly teaches that God is unique and above and beyond all other beings. All his attributes are infinite – limitless. He is in a class of his own.

So when men say that men are “gods” in the same ‘class’ as the supreme God are they saying it based on clear interpretation of passages that appear to suggest such or on a faulty interpretation?

The key portions of scripture used by WoF followers to justify their claim are Psalm 82:6 (I said, ‘You are gods’), and John 10:34-35 (Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came – and scripture cannot be broken – do you say of him who the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming’, because I said ‘I am the Son of God’?)

Looked at in context Psalm 82 begins with God presiding to execute judgment. He then went on to indict those who, when they too ought to be just in their delivery of justice, have more or less perverted justice. When in verse 7b we read: “… … you will fall like every other ruler” we see clearly the position of those who were being addressed. To the extent then that this Psalm has to do with rulership and administration of justice, it clearly does not stand to support the teaching that it applies to Christians in general.

The statement in verse 7a should also be an eye-opener: “But you will die like mere men". It is a pointer to condemnation of those being addressed. It is like God was employing what may be termed ‘divine sarcasm’ in the use of the word ‘gods’ throughout this passage.

In the John 10 passage Jesus’ argument is that if God can use the term ‘gods’ to refer to mere mortals then who better qualifies to be referred to as (and why should the Jews object to his calling himself) “the Son of God”? It was pointer to himself, to let the Jews know who he really was. It was not a declaration that all men (or believers in particular) are “gods”.

Another passage usually used by those who teach the deification of man is Genesis 1: 26-27 where God created man in his “image”.
Questions to consider include:
1. What is an image?
2. Is an image always an exact representation of the actual thing it represents?

While an image, say a statue, may be a representation of someone, it is obvious that in terms of ‘personality’, ability and capability, that image and the actual person cannot be placed on the same ‘class’.

So just using the term ‘image’ to assume that man is now in ‘God class’ is either a failure to see from other scriptural statements the very sharp distinction between God and man or an attempt to be mischievous. The only person who can be termed to be in the God Class is the Lord Jesus Christ who is described in the book of Hebrews as being “the exact representation of his being” or “express image of his (God’s) person” – Hebrews 1:3.

In 2 Peter 1:4 (another passage used by claimants of ‘You are gods’) we are said to “be partakers of the divine nature”. However that same portion goes on to state that it is for the purpose of the Christian escaping the corruption that is in the world through sinful lust. So what we see here is that the believer shares in God’s character in order to live free of the world’s corrupting influence. That is the purpose of sharing in the ‘nature’ of God: Not for the exhibition of some ‘God class’ power, but an enablement to live away from the power of the fallen world. Again there is no support here nor justification to use this portion of scripture to claim that man has been made ‘god’.

Why Did Apostle Paul Miss This Opportunity To Teach Us About “Little gods”?
In Acts chapter 14:8 – 15 after Paul healed a man the people said, "The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!" If there was anything like the doctrine of ‘Ye are gods’ here was an ideal opportunity for the apostle Paul to teach the doctrine. But what did Paul say, "But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their garments and rushed out into the crowd, crying out, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and earth and the sea and all that is in them"

The apostles were outraged at being called "gods" yet this is what WoF teachers preach today. This was a great opportunity for God to use them to teach us that we are gods: instead of doing that they tore their clothes and told them that they were also men just like them.

These people in the Acts passage had it in their ‘theology’ that men could be gods. But Paul didn’t buy that. He didn’t say “Yes, I’m made in God’s ‘image’ so let me use this as an opportunity to explain this ‘doctrine’ to them”

Now how does this line up with the teachings of popular WoF preachers today? I wonder if they were the ones involved what their reactions would have been. Do they ‘know’ more today than Paul and the other Apostles knew?

The teaching that believers in Christ are "little gods," is clearly unscriptural. It is a flawed interpretation of the Scriptures propagated largely by teachers of the Word of Faith movement.

6 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 10:59pm On Jul 07, 2014

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F4: THE DEIFICATION OF MAN: The View That Christians Are Little "gods" [/size]

Introduction

It is worrying enough that many claims that are unscriptural are coming out of the Faith movement. What is of greater concern however is the fact that they have been all too readily accepted as Christian teaching, which should make any discerning believer wonder just what is happening in Christianity today.

The next increment which we are going to look at their claim that - Christians are little “gods”.

Creflo Dollar said: “And if God produces man and everything produces after its own kind…if horses get together they produce what? If dogs get together they produce what? If cats get together they produce what? But if the Godhead gets together and says, ‘Let us make man’ then what are they producing? They are producing gods….You are gods because you came from God and you are gods, you are not just human…” (Creflo Dollar, “Made After His Kind”, September 15,2002)

Creflo Dollars also wrote: “The Holy Spirit dwells in your born-again spirit, so it is perfect, flawless. It’s just like God!” (From Creflodollarministries website (Articles: ‘No Longer Mere Men’, 23rd April, 2013)

So, according to this man God ‘got together’ like other animals do to produce man?

Incredibly, the WoF theology deifies man to the status of a god and demotes God to the status of a man. In WoF theology man was created as an exact duplicate of God, including size and shape.

By proclaiming ourselves to be "little gods" we try to place ourselves on the same level with God. Without doubt, this is the very height of arrogance and is nothing more than self-worship and self-glorification.

5 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 9:37am On Jul 07, 2014

truthislight: This is what I call deliberate distraction and being a distraction.

The sooner the posters/discussants remember that they are free moral agent the better for them and the thread, and the earlier this thread will move forward and faster and the interest kept alive.

Thanks a lot for this. We actually felt like you noted above. We'll be moving forward.

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 9:35am On Jul 07, 2014

ihedinobi2: I agree that they did. And I have pointed out that Jesus Himself addressed multitude circumstances directly too. And one does not have to look too far in Acts to find examples of the apostles doing the same. Does this addressing of circumstances that are adverse to you count as looking to God to resolve difficulties?

The Christian cannot equate himself with Jesus. He had inherent authority. We can only at best have delegated authority. The Apostles too were unique in their own way. They were pioneers. They were foundation layers.
You either address and depend onGod seeking his intervention in any issue or choose to handle it on your own way. There is no other Biblically prescribed way.

5 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 8:04am On Jul 07, 2014

ihedinobi2: Thanks for your responses. Do you suppose that we could examine your grievances now or not? The question that I am interested in right now is how a Christian is to deal with the difficulties that life brings their way.

So far you have said that it is contrary to the Bible to address our circumstances vocally. Judging by what Jesus said and did and what the apostles also said themselves and did, I am very much at loss why you say that. That is the last question I asked you. Do you have some answer for me?

Both the humanity of Christ and the Apostles looked to God to resolve the difficulties they faced.
See Mark 14:36, Acts 4, Romans 5:3-5

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 12:00am On Jul 07, 2014

[size=16pt]MY ADDITIONAL SUBMISSION ON F3: WEALTH/PROSPERITY[/size]

The Problem With The Prosperity Gospel

“Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions.” Luke 12:15

“For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.” Hebrews 13:14

Word of Faith promises its followers wealth and prosperity. WoF preachers teach their followers that they can use their faith to acquire material abundance. According to them, financial blessing is a guaranteed result of faith in God.

To them man has creative power with our spoken words because we are “little gods” and God has delegated sovereignty to us. In their ‘theology’ God cannot act on His own; He needs man’s ‘faith’ expressed through words to act. In fact, they believe man is the master of his destiny and can get what he wants by applying the ‘right’ formula. So getting wealth too is hinged on ‘using’ the right system.

Kenneth HagIn said: "Believe it in your heart, say it with your mouth, that's the principal of faith and you can have what you say."

The following are from the website of Kenneth Copeland Ministry (www.kcm.org):

“Throughout the Word, God plainly shows that His will is for His covenant people to have a surplus of prosperity.’

“Physical prosperity is twofold—health and wealth. Jesus redeemed us from the curse of the law—sickness, poverty and death (Deuteronomy 28: 15-61). Health and wealth belong to the believer.”

Kenneth Copeland has also said:
- "The man who holds to poverty rejects the establishment of the covenant. The man who
holds to the covenant rejects poverty”.
- “Poverty is an evil spirit”
- "Prosperity is a major requirement in the establishment of God’s will,"
and "God’s will for His people today is abundance"

The following is from Joel & Victoria Osteen’s Blog

Don’t Settle for Beans and Rice
Posted by Joel Osteen on 3/28/2014
One time, I received a letter from a young couple. They had both been raised in low-income families. All they saw modeled growing up was lack and struggle. Their families had accepted this lifestyle, but not this couple. They had been coming to Lakewood. They didn't have a "not enough" mentality; they had an abundance mentality. They knew God had a Promised Land of blessing in store for them. So, they took a step of faith. … … …

According to Joel Osteen in his book YOUR BEST LIFE NOW:
- “God wants to increase you financially, by giving you promotions, fresh ideas and
creativity” (p. 5),
- “He wants you to live in abundance. He wants to give you the desires of your
heart…God is turning things around in your favor” (p. 78).

Does Scripture agree with these positions?
Another major issue is this: did the Lord Jesus and the Apostles put a lot of emphasis on financial prosperity?

The Lord Jesus warned in Luke 12: 15 –“Then he said to them, “Watch out and guard yourself from all types of greed, because one’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”
In Matthew 6:19 – 21, He also said: “Do not accumulate for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But accumulate for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also”.

Apostle Paul had these to say:
A true Christian leader must not be a lover of money (1 Timothy 3:2-3).
The Christian is to be content with whatever he has (1 Timothy 6: 6- cool

.
The Christian is warned of the danger of the desire to get rich and to flee (1Timothy 6:9-11).

James tells us:
Being poor is a high position while being rich is a low position (James 1:9-10).

What we see is that, in sharp contrast to the WoF's emphasis on gaining money and possessions, the Christian is challenged to regard worldly riches as secondary to things of eternal value. The MAJOR REASON Jesus came was to take care of man’s greatest problem and that problem is not physical but spiritual. Concentrating on the physical issues of life belittles the work Christ came to do. A look at the life of Jesus, the apostles and the early church (a look at the book of Acts is a good starting point) and their stance on wealth and prosperity should show not only how they viewed these but also what the pattern for the Christian and church today should be. The focus of the Christian should be on who and what God is, not on the things we can get from Him. True riches are things money cannot buy; that is what the Lord and the Apostles encourage the Christian to seek for.

Now, did the disciples and apostles receive an abundant life the way the WoF preachers of today proclaim?
Was it that they somehow did not have the ‘revelation knowledge’ for prosperity gospel?
So where and how did these prosperity preachers of WoF get their understanding from? From “fresh revelations”, given to them by who?

Satan’s Strategy
One of the strategies of Satan is to get the believer to have his eyes on wealth and possessions. When he succeeds the believer becomes a casualty in his Christian life. Like someone aptly noted:
“Hastening for wealth is MATERIALISM – the excessive desire for things, whether for a more expensive car, a more ostentatious home, designer clothes, or just more money. … … … Much like an addictive drug, the snare of materialism amounts to a ceaseless roller coaster ride between exhilaration and misery”.

Lusting after material things is in reality shifting of focus from God to things. The WoF movement encourages this. It should be clear to any discerning Christian that that shift of focus is in fact sin.

The promise to make wealthy through a quick route excites the average person and the WoF preachers capitalize on this. The attractive viewpoint of divinely created wealth easy to get by all who will follow the ‘right formula’ is also a major subject matter of many a metaphysical school of thought to which WoF has been linked. The Bible teaches radically different things about what prosperity is, and how believers are to think of and go after material wealth.

There is certainly something wrong with building doctrines on twisted interpretations and applications of scriptural passages. This is what the WoF teachers do in order to support their erroneous position on acquisition of wealth. The Bible is full of passages warning about the deceitfulness of riches and money, yet the WoF preachers drive Christians down that same route.
A major problem with the wealth/prosperity gospel is that is seeks to apply a ‘theology’ that is really no theology at all. Instead it has incorporated metaphysical ideas into Christianity and with ‘Christian language’ lures many away from the true gospel into that which is not the gospel at all. Unlike what the WoF preachers teach, it is God, in the exercise of his sovereign will, who bestows on the believer what he wants. Ultimately we receive from him in GRACE and do not create our own world.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 11:54pm On Jul 06, 2014

ihedinobi2: If you people would stop thinking that every question is calculated to ensnare you, you would be able to see my answers. You ask how different opposing one to his face is from launching a violent attack on one's person after I've told you that personal attacks are what you have done on this thread to the ministers you've named. It is curious.

When you attack one's person, you are not attacking their errors, it is them you have issue with not their error. When you are attacking an error, it is only incidental that a person is involved. This is why we know nothing of any personal grouse Jesus had with Pharisees and others. He visited their homes and shared their meals because his fight was with the spirit that held them bound in their error not with they themselves. Paul challenged Peter in order to save believers who were seeing the whole thing and falling into error as well not because it was Peter.

You'll find in another letter of Paul's (his first to the Corinthians) that there was another issue with false apostles. How many of them did he name? The fight is never personal. It is always spiritual. You name people only under extraordinary circumstances. It is not foolishness that Jesus should pray mercy for the Pharisees et al even after all His "attack" on them.

The acceptable start is always that these people are your family. If they are in error, THEY need to be corrected. Not destroyed. The absence of mercy and compassion is strong evidence of the absence of Christ Himself.

Thanks for your input.

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 11:40pm On Jul 06, 2014

ihedinobi2: Which of these ministers here mentioned is any of you "opposing to his face"?

I will need your clear answer to:

What is "violent attack"? How is it different from "I opposed him to his face"?

before i can answer clearly.

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 11:32pm On Jul 06, 2014

ihedinobi2: Perhaps they are and yet the Spirit in believers is one. Mr Anony here on this thread used to be thought to be another moniker I use and vice versa because of the similarity of our persuasions. Style may vary, but the Spirit cannot. Either Paul made a violent attack on Peter's person as has been evident against so-called WoF ministers on this thread or he did not? That has nothing to do with style and everything to do with Grace. Which do you suppose it is?

What is "violent attack"? How is it different from "I opposed him to his face"?

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 11:22pm On Jul 06, 2014

ihedinobi2: I'm very glad you brought that up. Very glad indeed. Judging by how easily you put Scriptures up though I did expect you to be the one who would.

I beg you, is the language and tone of Paul in this passage comparable to the language and tone of this thread?

Language – ‘the words, their pronunciation, and methods of combining them …’

Tone – ‘style or manner of expression in speaking or writing’

Each individual is different in the way he uses words in speech or writing.
So it would be difficult to expect two individuals to communicate exactly in the same way.

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 11:08pm On Jul 06, 2014

How about this on naming or never name names

Paul Rebukes Peter

Galatians 2:
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he had clearly done wrong. 12 Until certain people came from James, he had been eating with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he stopped doing this and separated himself because he was afraid of those who were pro-circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also joined with him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray with them by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not behaving consistently with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, although you are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you try to force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 4:00pm On Jul 06, 2014

ihedinobi2 @BabaGnoni
@DrummaBoy

Can any of you give me some examples of places where Jesus was "naming and shaming" Pharisees and religious leaders of His day?

Matthew 23: 29 - 33 "Woe to you, experts in the law and you Pharisees, hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have participated with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 By saying this you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up then the measure of your ancestors! 33 You snakes, you offspring of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"
Luke 13:32 "But he said to them, “[size=14pt]Go and tell that fox[/size], ‘Look, I am casting out demons and performing healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will complete my work."

Can any of you explain how and why He accepted their invitations to their homes and their hospitality and their own personal visits to Him?

See Luke 7:36 -50

Can any of you show me parallels between what you're doing and what He did in His day?

see Matthew 23:1 - 36

@topic

A lot has been and is being said and I find the thread a bit too tedious to read. I think I'll take things in bite sizes.

To start with, let me warn everyone who will judge my responses to be very conscious of my first post on this thread.

Now, I have one question: Is it biblical to speak to the situations and circumstances that you face and command them to fit a pattern? Or rather, how does the Bible tell us to deal with the adverse circumstances of our lives?

if this question has been answered in any form on this thread already, a quote or reference to the particular post where it was answered will do. You need not repeat yourself. If the post is a long one, a quote containing the answer, that is, a culling of the portion containing the answer, would be far more appreciated than a link or a quote of the whole post.

No.
Pray - see Mark 6:46, Mark 13:18, Luke 5:16, Luke 6: 12, John 17: 9, Romans1: 10, 2 Cor. 13:7, Ephesians 1:16, Ephesians 6:18, Colossians 1:3, Hebrews 5:7, James 5:13,14,
Claim promises.

3 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 12:57pm On Jul 05, 2014

[size=16pt]F3: WEALTH/PROSPERITY[/size]

INTRODUCTION
Another teaching of the Word of Faith movement is that Christians have the right to the blessings of wealth/prosperity obtainable through “positive confession” and their other ‘formulas’.

Is the believer’s spiritual wellbeing measured in terms of material welfare, or is wealth always a sign of God’s blessing (since it can be obtained by coercion, deceit or corruption)? On the other hand is poverty or illness or early death, a sign of God’s curse, or lack of faith, or human curses (and can these be proven explicitly from the Bible)?

Is the sovereign grace of God involved in success in life or is it entirely due to our own striving, wrestling, negotiation, or cleverness and use of ‘positive thinking’ and other kinds of ‘self-help’ techniques?

Are the Bible texts used by the WoF done with careful exegesis, or are they seriously distorted, selective, and manipulative? Are many texts twisted out of context and used in ways that contradict some very plain Bible teaching?

These are issues that need looking into in order to see where the WoF positions on them line up with the Scripture.

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 11:52am On Jul 05, 2014

[size=16pt]MY CLOSING WORDS FOR SUBMISSION ON F2: GUARANTEED HEALTH[/size]

A Right Approach To Sickness And Ill-health

None of us wants to be sick. Illness is not just tough on the physical body; it takes its toll on the soul as well. It is therefore not strange that many want to find an escape route for it, no matter what that panacea offered is.

But how is the Christian to approach the issue of sickness & ill-health? First, he must understand that nothing eludes the infinite knowledge of God therefore He knows what is going to happen to every child of His. Secondly, whatever God allows to happen is for a purpose; it is not by “chance” or “accident”. To accept otherwise is to stand on the ground that God is not in control of the believer’s life. In essence such a person is saying that God is either uninterested in what happens to the believer or doesn’t know about certain things that happens to the Christian. That will be putting to question God’s omniscience, omnipotence and love.

In perfect wisdom, God knows why he permits sickness in any believer’s life. Even when the believer, like Job (Job 3:5), does not know, God knows. The believer must therefore rest in the knowledge that God has a reason for what is happening in his life and wants to be glorified through how the believer (like Job did) handles that situation, no matter how tough.

Even when the Christian cannot find reasons why he is faced with sickness or ill-health, he can and should still rest on God’s promises. For example, He has said “Never will I leave you; Never will I forsake you” (Hebrews 13:5). Also this: “Behold, I am with you always … …” (Matthew 28:20) and so many more promises that he can use to stabilize his soul.

In sickness or ill-health the believer should face the situation with courage based on his confidence in God and his promises. He is not to crumble under pressure and seek other solutions not prescribed by the Word of God.

God wants you as a believer, under any circumstance, to “cast all your anxieties on Him, for He cares about you” ( 1 Peter 5:7). God wants the believer to hold his head high and be able to say like Job: “I know that my redeemer lives” (Job 19:25).

No believer should rely on anything in life (including good health) as a source of his happiness. Anything and everything in this world will pass away, but the word of God stands forever: “The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the Word of our God stands forever” (Isaiah Forty verse eight)

The details and circumstances of life are of no consequence. How the believer handles these in the shortness of TIME is what will determine whether (like Job) he wins a tactical victory that will count for greater blessings in endless ETERNITY.

“Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly (physical body) we are wasting away, yet inwardly (soul) we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles (suffering, including ill-health) are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all” ( 2 Cor. 4: 16,17).

A world of no ill-health is coming but it’s still in the future:
“And God will wipe away every tear from their (believers’) eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things (including sickness and ill-health) have passed away” (Rev. 21:4)

I REST MY CASE ON F2, FOR NOW.

4 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 9:12pm On Jul 04, 2014

[size=16pt]How Does Healing Come?[/size]

WoF concept of divine health is different from Biblical position of the Christian hope and prayer for divine healing. Again building on the ‘spoken word’ belief and the ‘positive confession’ position, the WoF followers hold on to a point of view that divine health is achieved via those means – their “faith formula”. So anyone who can ‘make the right confessions’, ‘confess health’ or get to the ‘right level of faith’ can rely on and use those means to get his divine health. This differs considerably from the Biblical position that shows healing as coming as a result of petition to God for his divine intervention.

WoF people may claim they are speaking “the word” which presupposes they are using the Bible. However, they are not quite going about it the way the Bible prescribes: And this is a major departure. The Christian is to go to God in prayer soliciting his grace intervention to bring about healing or good health. He must then leave the matter in God’s hands and not try to operate like ‘little gods’, who as masters of their own destiny, try to effect “divine health" by some “faith formula”.

Lets anyone thinks that this WoF position is just ‘made up’, see what Benny Hinn said:
"The Bible declares that the work was done 2,000 years ago. God is not going to heal you now -- he healed you 2,000 years ago. All you have to do today is receive your healing by faith" (Rise and Be Healed, p. 44).
If all you have to do today is “receive your healing by faith” then there is no point in going to God in prayer. We become masters of our fate and take up the issues ourselves. But is that what the Bible teaches – ‘Do it yourself’?

What the Christian’s attitude to seeking divine healing should be is evident from many passages in the Bible, but lets see apostle James’ very clear instructions to the church on the sick:

“Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, … … and the prayer of faith… …” [/b]James 5: 14 – 15
So the way to seek for divine healing is through [b]PRAYER. How the WoF came up with their own ‘systems’ beats the imagination.

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 8:01am On Jul 04, 2014*

loveroftruth: We were ask to pray for this by christ himself :

"Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. " (Matthew 6:10).

so, this

"Thy kingdom come." Matt 6:10

is equal to this:

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Revelation 21:2).

And this:

Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. " (Matthew 6:10).

equal to this:

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4).

Ofcouse, in heaven there is no death, no tears, no sorrows, no crying, np pains, just the will/wish of a loving father for members of his families. So shall it be on earth also.

God's will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. " (Matthew 6:10).

I'm not quite sure of what you are getting at here but one of the things to be put in perspective in looking at Bible verses or passages is CONTEXT.

The body we have now is limited and subject to a number of things. There will be a FUTURE time when those limitations will be removed.

1 Cor 15: 53-54:
"53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

It is God who WILL work this out in His time. There are some things that are inevitable for now on earth. There are those things the believer HOPES for in eternity. Part if this hope are the things that will be "no more".

God's work in each believer's life is always for his BEST whether 'good' or 'bad'. 16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.
17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,( 2 Cor. 4:16,17)

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 11:02pm On Jul 03, 2014

[size=16pt]A Fitting Quote[/size]

Here's a quote from an article by Kingsley Larbi in African Bible Commentary edited by Tokunboh Adeyemo (WorldAlive Publishers & Zondervan, 2006)

"The traditional understanding of the cause of disease has survived in African Christianity, as is clear from the popularity of prophets and faith healers. The clergy are expected, whether justifiably or not, to authenticate their ministry by exercising powers traditionally credited to religious persons, such as healing, unveiling hidden things, predicting the future, and being able to bless and curse effectively. When such powers are not present, members drift to other churches, attend other healing services, and consult spiritualists and fetish priests.

African Christians must realize that God reserves the sole prerogative to heal. Not all the sick in the days of Jesus were healed, nor were all the dead raised to life like Lazarus. Whether Jesus chooses to heal or not does not change the fact that he is Saviour and Lord. Consequently, we must seek him for who he is and not merely for healing".

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 7:04pm On Jul 03, 2014

BabaGnoni: ... ...

Having mentioned that, now where has God promised a problem free life (i.e. a guaranteed health)

The fact and truth of the matter is that, God never promised a problem free life on earth
... ...
Ah. Facepalm. "New Jerusalem".
OK, where did "New Jerusalem" pop out from?
Out of Hell, from Heaven or out of thin air by means of some abracadabra?

I agree that there are obviously things that are still for the future including this which you posted earlier:
"And God will wipe away every tear from their (believers') eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things (including sickness and ill-health) have passed away" (Rev. 21: 4).

What should be noted is "God will..." or "God shall...". This forms part of the believer's HOPE.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 8:50pm On Jul 01, 2014

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F2: GUARANTEED HEALTH OR THE HEALTH GOSPEL (2ND INSTALMENT)[/size]

STILL ON TWISTING OF BIBLE VERSES[b]

[b]We have seen in the last submissions on F2 how Bible verses are misinterpreted and subsequently misapplied by WoF preachers and devotees. Another one of such is what we will examine below.

One of the Bible verses you'll find most WoF Christians use to try to prove that God's will is that believers be always in good health is 3 John 2: "Beloved, I pray that all may go well with you and that you may be in good health, as it goes well with your soul".
The verse is taken to straight away mean: "God wants your soul to prosper, and when it does, it's going to affect even your health life positively".

The Position of the Bible:
When considered in proper context, it can be seen without difficulty that 3 John 2 contains the personal wish or prayer of the Apostle John towards the beloved Gaius. "When considered in proper context, it can be seen without difficulty that 3 John 2 contains the personal wish or prayer of the Apostle John towards the beloved Gaius. "[b]Beloved, I wish ... ..." or "Beloved, I pray ... ..." [/b]should certainly not be seen or interpreted as a PROMISE from God. Rather it is a wish or prayer for Gaius to be in health.
should certainly not be seen or interpreted as a PROMISE from God. Rather it is a wish or prayer for Gaius to be in health.

WoF preachers are reading more into this text than was intended by the author. They end up coming up with the exact opposite of what a sound Biblical interpretation of the verse should be. The correct interpretation of John's desire that Gaius's physical well-being be as abundant as his spiritual prosperity, for some strange reason, is not seen by WoF preachers who would rather see it as a blank cheque for guarantee of divine health.

The Christian is expected to remain steadfast in God whether in sickness or in good health. He should be like Apostle Paul who said in Philippians 4:11 "I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content". Note the words "in whatever situation": it means life situations will vary; it is not just going to be in a particular way. No matter how it presents itself the Christian is to remain focussed on God.

Frantic Search for Solutions
It would appear that the frantic search for solutions to problems (including health problems) is a major reason why many churches in Nigeria burst at the seams today. WoF preachers and devotees have promised people that they can speak a "word of healing" on them and end their sickness or restore them to health. Millions of desperate people flock to these WoF men hoping for the divine intervention that would end their misery.

Countless others pursue daily personal routine of confession "capsules" that are to be engaged in when a physical symptom or attack hits them, hoping their healing will come, refusing to admit or "speak negative language of defeat" by even acknowledging their condition. They put up a positive face, refusing to admit physical difficulties or a condition that is evidently present.

In all these, what we again see is man's resort to using 'systems' or 'formulas' to find solutions to issues outside of God's prescribed way. So there is faith that is placed in the magical ability of "words" to change physical reality, the refusal to admit defeat or say anything that is 'negative', and the meticulous and intentional confession of Bible verses in order to transform natural situations.

(More on the lies of Guaranteed Health coming)

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 10:02am On Jul 01, 2014

tribeofdavid: pls keep this thread going, it has been revealing so far! the heretic TBN station is all about this movement. bt i wonder, why are some other KENNETH HAGIN book so spiritual and having sound doctrine?

In their association with sound Christian groups/churches (and even literature) it is quite possible for WoF preachers to have taken up some authentic teachings. However, the distorted Biblical truths which are alluring and appeal to many unsuspecting Christians, and to which many Christians focus more on, do more harm to believers' spiritual life than whatever other sound teachings they offer.

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