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Christianity Etc › Re: Truth Behind Christ Embassy Healing School By Sir John by trustman: 11:10am On Sep 09, 2014

Gombs: That's definitely not what my Jesus came to do..He came to destroy ALL works of the devil...not some

This again is where you WoF people always MISS it.
Simple question:
What is ALL works of the devil?
You need to think well or perhaps study some more before answering.

Christianity Etc › Re: Truth Behind Christ Embassy Healing School By Sir John by trustman: 11:04pm On Sep 08, 2014

CHARLOE: Healing school is a sham, any1 dat doesn't know is on a long tin!

Gombs & Co over to you!

Christianity Etc › What Are Some Modern Forms Of Idolatry? by trustman(op): 10:26pm On Sep 08, 2014

Question: "What are some modern forms of idolatry?"

Answer: All the various forms of modern idolatry have one thing at their core: self. We no longer bow down to idols and images. Instead we worship at the altar of the god of self. This brand of modern idolatry takes various forms.

First, we worship at the altar of materialism which feeds our need to build our egos through the acquisition of more “stuff.” Our homes are filled with all manner of possessions. We build bigger and bigger houses with more closets and storage space in order to house all the things we buy, much of which we haven’t even paid for yet. Most of our stuff has “planned obsolescence” built into it, making it useless in no time, and so we consign it to the garage or other storage space. Then we rush out to buy the newest item, garment or gadget and the whole process starts over. This insatiable desire for more, better, and newer stuff is nothing more than covetousness. The tenth commandment tells us not to fall victim to coveting: "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor" (Exodus 20:17). God doesn’t just want to rain on our buying sprees. He knows we will never be happy indulging our materialistic desires because it is Satan’s trap to keep our focus on ourselves and not on Him.

Second, we worship at the altar of our own pride and ego. This often takes the form of obsession with careers and jobs. Millions of men—and increasingly more women—spend 60-80 hours a week working. Even on the weekends and during vacations, our laptops are humming and our minds are whirling with thoughts of how to make our businesses more successful, how to get that promotion, how to get the next raise, how to close the next deal. In the meantime, our children are starving for attention and love. We fool ourselves into thinking we are doing it for them, to give them a better life. But the truth is we are doing it for ourselves, to increase our self-esteem by appearing more successful in the eyes of the world. This is folly. All our labors and accomplishments will be of no use to us after we die, nor will the admiration of the world, because these things have no eternal value. As King Solomon put it, “For a man may do his work with wisdom, knowledge and skill, and then he must leave all he owns to someone who has not worked for it. This too is meaningless and a great misfortune. What does a man get for all the toil and anxious striving with which he labors under the sun? All his days his work is pain and grief; even at night his mind does not rest. This too is meaningless” (Ecclesiastes 2:21-23).

Third, we idolize mankind—and by extension ourselves—through naturalism and the power of science. This gives us the illusion that we are lords of our world and builds our self-esteem to godlike proportions. We reject God’s Word and His description of how He created the heavens and the earth, and we accept the nonsense of evolution and naturalism. We embrace the goddess of environmentalism and fool ourselves into thinking we can preserve the earth indefinitely when God has declared the earth has a limited lifespan and will last only until the end of the age. At that time, He will destroy all that He has made and create a new heaven and new earth. “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness” (2 Peter 3:10-13). As this passage so clearly states, our focus should not be on worshipping the environment, but on living holy lives as we wait eagerly for the return of our Lord and Savior, who alone deserves worship.

Finally, and perhaps most destructively, we worship at the altar of self-aggrandizement or the fulfillment of the self to the exclusion of all others and their needs and desires. This manifests itself in self-indulgence through alcohol, drugs, and food. Those in affluent countries have unlimited access to alcohol, drugs (prescription drug use is at an all-time high, even among children), and food. Obesity rates in the U.S. have skyrocketed, and childhood diabetes brought on by overeating is epidemic. The self-control we so desperately need is spurned in our insatiable desire to eat, drink, and medicate more and more. We resist any effort to get us to curb our appetites, and we are determined to make ourselves the god of our lives. This has its origin in the Garden of Eden where Satan tempted Eve to eat of the tree with the words “you will be like God” (Genesis 3:5). This has been man’s desire ever since—to be god and, as we have seen, the worship of self is the basis of all modern idolatry.

All idolatry of self has at its core the three lusts found in 1 John 2:16: “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” If we are to escape modern idolatry, we have to admit that it is rampant and reject it in all its forms. It is not of God, but of Satan, and in it we will never find fulfillment. This is the great lie and the same one Satan has been telling since he first lied to Adam and Eve. Sadly, we are still falling for it. Even more sadly, many churches are propagating it in the preaching of the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel built on the idol of self-esteem. But we will never find happiness focusing on ourselves. Our hearts and minds must be centered on God and on others. This is why when asked what is the greatest commandment, Jesus replied, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind” (Matthew 22:37). When we love the Lord and others with everything that is in us, there will be no room in our hearts for idolatry.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/idolatry-modern.html#ixzz3ClI1crn1

Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris Oyakhilome Addresses The Whole Media Hype And Lies by trustman: 10:04pm On Sep 08, 2014

lanrefront1: it is there in print in THIS DAY. THIS DAY says a copy of the suit is in its possessions. I didn't say it. THIS DAY said and its a reputable and BIG newspaper.

Well I guess THIS DAY must be LIEING then. They simply put pen to paper and came out with their own version of the divorce suit filed by Anita lawyers.

trustman:
It should be clear to any objective observer that Gombs & Co will discredit ANY media house in order to try and 'prove' their 'man of God' right.
Even the very statement by their 'man of God' cannot be rightly evaluated by them because he is above mistake and so cannot be faulted.
So they will use ANY 'technique' to try to frustrate perceived 'opponents'.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris Oyakhilome Addresses The Whole Media Hype And Lies by trustman: 9:53pm On Sep 08, 2014

lanrefront1: What about THIS DAY then? Can we accept news from them or shall we disregard them too?

They didn't fabricate it; they simply reproduced in print the copy of the divorce papers with them.

It should be clear to any objective observer that Gombs & Co will discredit ANY media house in order to try and 'prove' their 'man of God' right.
Even the very statement by their 'man of God' cannot be rightly evaluated by them because he is above mistake and so cannot be faulted.
So they will use ANY 'technique' to try to frustrate perceived 'opponents'.

3 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris Oyakhilome Addresses The Whole Media Hype And Lies by trustman: 8:06pm On Sep 08, 2014

Transluxpaints: everything that is happening to pastor chris marriage is just an attack from the kingdom of darkness,the contention has been on in the spirit for sometime now,pls lets be reasonble when we are dealing men of God even if its a fake man of God we may be condermed because its a sin against the holy spirit.lets continue to pray for pastor chris and anita that God should restore their blessed marriage

So a person will be sinning against the Holy Spirit if he talks about 'a fake man of God'?
So God supports 'fake men of God'?
So even fake ones are still men of God?
Can you see how some of you are reasoning?

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris Oyakhilome Addresses The Whole Media Hype And Lies by trustman: 7:41pm On Sep 08, 2014

degbads: 2 reasons why, if you are daft and simple minded enough to believe everything you read in the press, you simply don’t have the intelligence to be rich (at least not yet), you just can’t cut it in business, the authors of the different posts accusing him (and many other posts) didn’t even dignify you enough to put a reasonable link, except to Sahara reporters and the Cable ( i even think say na UK paper before i see .ng for their website url) of all media houses, why? they don't think you are intelligent enough to need one, they doesn’t expect you to examine the facts and develop an informed opinion, they are counting on your illiteracy to go up in arms and condemn a man you know next to nothing about, sadly he is right for the most part
Secondly, if you are successful, you would have come through thick and thin on your road to success, you would have seen a lot, had a lot of people lie against you, defame you wrongly, this shapes your mind, you are more intelligent, you realize that not all that is said about a man is necessarily true and you realize that just like you, this may yet be another person being defamed, you are thus cautious to criticize, you know your words are important and taken seriously, you have the intelligence to examine the facts and the self-restraint to refrain from commenting until you have a reasonable picture of things. Peasants don't have such considerations!!!

[size=14pt]So what are you saying?
Some of you are in a class of your own,abi?! CONGRATS!![/size]

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris Oyakhilome Addresses The Whole Media Hype And Lies by trustman: 10:04am On Sep 08, 2014

Maybe we need a 'new' definition of who a 'man of God' is. Was Apostle Paul a 'man of God'? Or just a preacher? What did he say about himself? How did he regard himself?

When the supposedly new covenant believer falls back on the Old covenant to want to either interpret his spiritual life or justify his position on any issue then something is definitely not quite right.

NO MAN has a right to equate himself with Jesus Christ. He is in a class of his own. Of course when men are deified and Christ is lowered to level of man anything goes.

Is there right or wrong as far as the Bible stands?
Or is it a matter of SITUATIONAL ETHICS or the 'leading of the spirit' which can work in any direction - in line with or against the written scripture?

Now, who in the first place started projecting the image of the wives of ministers to be at par with their 'MoG' husbands? The press? The followers?
What exactly is the way it is in the Bible?
Why hasn't that been made clear before now?

Christians need to learn to get back to the Bible and see how the NEW COVENANT BELIEVER is to pattern his life: and this applies to both those who are given the GIFT of shepherding and those who are not but EQUALLY have other gifts e. g. discernment.

Christianity is not mysticism. It is not only the 'MoG' that can understand God - otherwise why is the Holy Spirit given to all? Or is he given only to some?

When believers refuse to think with the MIND OF CHRIST - the Bible, they can swallow anything offered to them - hook line and sinker.

- "So let no one boast in men" 1 Corinthians 3:21
- "Therefore let anyone (MoG excluded?) who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall" 1 Corinthians 10:12
- "But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: "The Lord knows those who are his", and "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from Iniquity" 2 Timothy 2:19

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Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris Oyakhilome Addresses The Whole Media Hype And Lies by trustman: 8:14am On Sep 08, 2014

Gombs: GO back and read the op slowly, with your finger pointing each word...if you see that bold in the statement, then u are either dyslexic or ignorant

The one you made bold is MY STATEMENT. I was not quoting him. But because you want to avoid the substance of my post you have conveniently twisted it. Now answer if you can.

Christianity Etc › Re: Christian Oyakhilome's Exact Words At The Communion Service by trustman: 8:01am On Sep 08, 2014

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Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor Chris Oyakhilome Addresses The Whole Media Hype And Lies by trustman: 7:03am On Sep 08, 2014

Have Gombs & co really analyzed that statement line by line, sentence by sentence and think all is ok with it?
Or are they just excited that something has been said? A man of God does not sin? The new testament man of God is patterned after what?
I think the gullibility of CEC members and supporters is amazing!

17 Likes 1 Share

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 11:59pm On Sep 07, 2014

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F14: PERSONALIZING THE GOSPEL[/size]

“All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.”
- Acts 4: 32 – 45

“You must be shepherds to the church of God, the people he bought with his own blood.”
- Acts 20:28

When Christianity was first brought to Nigeria by foreign missionaries they never sought to make names for themselves. They were selfless. All they wanted to do was lift up Jesus and him alone. If they wanted many of the hospitals and schools and other institutions and set ups they founded would have been in their names. In fact, many of these institutions named after some of those men and women were done after they had either gone back to their home countries or died.

The present day ‘ministers’ of the WoF’ extraction thinks differently. The ministries are their own, built on their preferred ‘business model’. The ministries are incorporated not with the mind of having trustees that the Pastor will be accountable to but with the pastors actually seeking to ‘be in charge’ of such Board of Trustees. You therefore find the pastor and his wife [pastor & pastor (Mrs.)] being the major trustees with a few others who can have little or no authority added to the list to make it up. Their leadership style is also fashioned after those of corporate CEOs. Nigerian WoF Christianity may have its own peculiarity but most of what it displayed is borrowed largely from its American counterpart. The truth is that Churches aren’t businesses and aren’t supposed to be run as such.

Celebrity pastors:
Most WoF pastors see their churches as their "platform," using it to grow their influence and promoting their image.
These pastors bask in the glory of their rock star status and take delight in a lifestyle of fame, popularity, self-aggrandizement and self-importance. They have forsaken modesty, humility, integrity, God’s mission and common sense. Instead they prefer a lavished lifestyle of fame, fortune and worldliness.
This kind of pastor is building a name and an empire for himself instead of pursuing a mission of making Christ famous. Any pastor who misuses his influence in such a way as to promote self has shifted the focus from Christ to himself. Getting to the “next level” for them simply means more self-promotion and fame.
The temptation to be carried away into pride, self-aggrandizement and idolatry when appreciated for ministry is real. But like Jesus it should be resisted by all means. Paul warned the church of Corinth about turning men into tin-gods and even went on to say “So let no one boast in men…” 1 Cor. 3:21
If you are one of such pastors let the scriptures speak God’s clear words to you and do create a man-made empire in the name of God and force others to ‘fit’ into your mould.

Conclusion
Pastors and churches and ministries should work to make Christ the true Star of their ministries. Self-promotion needs to be done away with. Celebrity or rock star status should be discarded. Pastors must resist the seductive attraction of prominence. Work to see yourself decrease so that Christ may increase through you. Hero worship of men can easily turn into idolatry.

What we find in the whole of the New Testament is humble servant leadership that discourages pastors from becoming prideful and carnal. This ministry style that engages in self-promotion is inconsistent with God’s blueprint in the Bible.

I REST MY CASE ON F14, FOR NOW

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 10:32pm On Sep 05, 2014

DrummaBoy: What's your thoughts on this?

"I just want to encourage every one of us to realize when we obey God, we're not doing it for God—I mean, that's one way to look at it—we're doing it for ourselves, because God takes pleasure when we're happy. That's the thing that gives Him the greatest joy. So, I want you to know this morning: Just do good for your own self. Do good because God wants you to be happy. When you come to church, when you worship Him, you're not doing it for God really. You're doing it for yourself, because that's what makes God happy Amen?" (The congregation applauds) - Victoria Osteen.

^^^
That's the stupidest thing I ever heard - Bill Cosby.

www.crosswalk.com/blogs/christian-trends/victoria-osteen-takes-worship-of-god-to-new-low-it-s-all-about-you.html?fb_action_ids=10152623264883632&fb_action_types=og.comments&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B711823402225978%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.comments%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

When the focus shifts from 'What does the Bible say?' to 'What will motivate my followership?' we can expect that anything goes.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by trustman: 6:05am On Sep 04, 2014

OLAADEGBU: You fall into the category of people Jesus was talking to in the following verse:

"They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them. If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill me, a man that has told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham" (John 8:39-40)

Now compare that to what Paul said of Abraham:

"And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised" (Romans 4:12).

So, if you don't walk in the steps of Abraham we should question your claim in Christ.

Again when one says rightly interpret the word you get off. NOTE that portion did not just say 'walk in the steps of Abraham'. It says 'walk in the steps OF THAT FAITH of our father Abraham'. The two are not the same. Right interpretation leads to right application.
Wrong interpretation, wrong application.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by trustman: 11:57pm On Sep 03, 2014

OLAADEGBU: Here's another verse for you to crack:

"The Lord has sworn, and will not repent, You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek" (Psalm 110:4).

Who is this everlasting priest after the order of Melchizedek?

The epistles NEVER once mentioned anything about The Feast of Tabernacles. And this was a very important feast under the old covenant. What can this absence of mention of it tell us? Simply this: it is no longer a requirement for the spiritual life under the new covenant. The same applies to tithing. If tithing were as compulsory as many preachers are leading a lot of members of the body of Christ to believe then the new testament epistles would have stated it What was important was stated - 2Corinthians 9:7 "Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." Any teaching outside of this is deception, coercion and outright evil.
shocked

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Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by trustman: 9:07pm On Sep 03, 2014

OLAADEGBU: That is prolix. The question is; are you a child of Abraham or not?

"And if you be Christ's, then are you Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29).

"heirs according to" what? "the promise" Which promise? Melchizedek promise? Abrahamic promise? Land grant promise? Which one? Pre-law, post-law?
So it's not just enough to quote a passage. Rightly interpret it, then you can rightly apply it or know how to use it.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by trustman: 8:58pm On Sep 03, 2014

paxonel: no, every Christian is a child of Abraham in the spirit, not in physical. because the justification (the aim ) of the crucifixion of Jesus christ which made us the spiritual decendants of Abraham is something purely spiritual
physically, the jews are decendants of Abraham but we are not, we are only spiritual decendants so let the jews continue to pay,.tithe payment is physical just like any other payment or transaction in banks, it is their traditional law
we are Yoruba, igbo, hausa etc
i don't know if understand me

You are right on point. This is what we mean by rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by trustman: 5:29pm On Sep 03, 2014

OLAADEGBU: Since you know the answer to his question why don't you go ahead to answer it?

The question was to you, my friend. The question was to you. Of course since you copy and paste you may be unable to truly answer.

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by trustman: 3:34pm On Sep 03, 2014

OLAADEGBU: You don't have to be tendentious. Make your point and move on.

It clear to any follower of the thread the one who being cunning or outrightly skewed in his thinking.
The guy asked a simple question:

paxonel: lets be sincere,this argument is not sound at all (full of fallacies)
thank God you say the biblical formular was given to isreal before christ was crucified.How does it concern us in christianity?
if muslims read quran that there was payment of tithe and begin to ask us in christianity to pay, will you pay?

(

And your answer was:

OLAADEGBU: What about tithing before the Law? Is that not in the Bible?

How does this answer the question? Except you just want to keep the thread running! Abi?

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by trustman: 1:19pm On Sep 03, 2014

OLAADEGBU: What about tithing before the Law? Is that not in the Bible?

You don't seem to understand his position and question. Please re-read his post.

Christianity Etc › Re: Having Faith In A Faithful God by trustman: 6:17pm On Sep 02, 2014

AlfaSelltzer: I thought that was why Jesus came? God has taken it away more than 2000 years ago! Sickness has never been the will of God for man, or has it?

Gombs, weldone... Seun, Mynd44, fp tins

Like I pointed out the issue for the Christian is - what does the word of God rightly balanced say? That is why I quoted extensively from the portion I did.

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: Having Faith In A Faithful God by trustman: 4:43pm On Sep 02, 2014

Rightly dividing the word of truth means first interpreting the word of God correctly so that the right application can then be made. The issue for the Christian then is 'first and foremost what does the scripture say and mean?'. Thereafter it is 'how can it be rightly applied to my life, situations and circumstances?'

When human viewpoint is employed man may even query God why he still allows the Devil free reign on the earth. After-all he is a loving God isn't he. So why doesn't he just remove the Devil and all negative things. The answers to such questions cannot come from human viewpoint reasoning. They can only come from right understanding of the word of God which is then used to look at the issues involved.

It is clear from scriptures that there will be suffering in this present world -
Romans 8:18 - "For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us."
To deny suffering then is to deny the word of God. In fact, looking at this Romans portion in more detail we see this:
"18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience."

Suffering, including sickness is as a result of Adam 's sin and continues to be in human history until God takes it away.

What the Christian needs to do when faced with the issue of suffering and sin is to understand like Romans 8: 35-39 that "35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or danger, or sword?
36 As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

No matter what the Christian faces, the LOVE of God is always there for him to hold on to face whatever adverse situation that may come his way. That is scripture.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 11:26pm On Aug 31, 2014

Image123: What is this blanket yada yada? Of course, the reply has to have an angle.
Anyways, i read the Nora pdf (drumb take note). i believe John Lake above his accusers. The accusations don't add up on many fronts.

Those who will listen will listen!
Acts 28: - 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 9:05am On Aug 31, 2014

Candour: [color=#000099]"Christianity started in Jerusalem as a movement.....It got to Rome and became an institution..... It spread round Europe and became a culture....it got to America and became an industry; a very big industry.....Rome, Europe and America exported their different versions to Africa and it became a hotbed of confusion....but Christ is coming back for a movement"[/color
.

May God help us

Indeed Jesus Christ is coming back for his "ekklesia" (courtesy, BabaGnoni). He is not coming for a religion.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 9:50pm On Aug 30, 2014

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F13: MERCHANDIZING THE GOSPEL[/size]
[size=14pt]

[b][color=#006600]“And proclaim as you go, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. You received without paying; give without pay”
- Matthew 10: 7-8
“What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?”
- 1 Corinthians 4:7b

The above two quotes clearly show God’s mind about the dissemination of the gospel. These are not suggestions; these are God’s MANDATES. None of us paid to get the ‘riches of his grace’ that God blessed us with. Not salvation; and certainly not the spiritual gifts and all the other ‘spiritual blessing in heavenly places’. So when a Christian is given the gift of say an evangelist and he decides that he must be paid for exercising that divine endowment, what can we make of that?

Commercial enterprise?
Many Christians and churches do not seem to understand how subtle satanic deception can be and how easily it can steal into ‘Christian’ thinking and actions. TBN (USA) was said to have gone to its audience with a NEED for $8 million for mission work at a time when apart from its cash holding of over $30 million it had $238 million in TREASURY BONDS. What a NEED?

The ‘everyday Christian here in Nigeria’
The ‘everyday Christian here in Nigeria’ cannot claim to be unaware of many ‘MoG’ – pastors, prophets, apostles, etc – who merchandize the gospel through monetizing prayer, ‘prophecy’, ‘breakthrough miracles and so forth. Again the gullible nature of the ‘ordinary believer here in Nigeria’ makes him fall for anything presented in the name of Christianity by any of these self-proclaimed ‘MoG’. Hoodwinked into believing that he cannot reach God on his own or that ‘power’ resides only in the ‘anointed’ ‘MoG’, today’s ‘everyday Christian here in Nigeria’ thinks that to attract God’s intervention on any issue he must do whatever the ‘ministers’ tell him to do including parting with whatever sum of money he is asked to pay. The ‘ministers’ end up smiling to the banks while the followers continue to shortchange themselves, with many continuing to wallow in poverty hoping their ‘breakthrough’ will come someday. The unfortunate thing about the ‘everyday Christian here in Nigeria’ is that stories about the fake and the ridiculous which should shock him into thinking and refocusing his life with the Word of God never seem to have any impact on him. He has become so traumatized (or is it held spellbound) by these ‘MoG’ that he has virtually become a zombie, losing his reasoning and almost completely subjected to the control of the ‘MoG’ he has chosen to run to for ‘cover’.

Dissemination of the gospel
It has become the norm for many of these “MoG’ to charge a fee for being invited to preach at any service or programme. Gone are the days when ministers are invited to come and freely bless other Christians with what they have freely received from God. Many will ask to be put in top hotels and given first class treatment before they will accept or honor any invitation. And all these are in addition to huge ‘honorariums’ they receive for such engagements. Many congregations will scrape all they can or task their members just to host ministers for crusades or revivals.

Bus & Motor-park Preaching
Anyone who has traveled from one state to another in Nigeria from motor parks must have encountered preachers/ ‘prayer ministers’ who at the end of their messages solicit for money to fund their ‘ministry’. The same goes for those preaching in buses in intra city or intra towns routes. The issues of whether donors are Christians or not matters very little to these itinerant (?) preachers. Ordinarily an itinerant minister should either have a support base or be sure he has resources of his own support his work. What these on-the-move preachers do is none of these. Requesting for money from people who may not even care any bit about the gospel is unethical and not in line with Scripture (1 Corinthians 14: 40 – “But all things should be done decently and in order”). Also we are told in 3 John vv 6-8: “who testified to your love before the church. You will do well to send them on their journey in a manner worthy of God. For they have gone out for the sake of the name, accepting nothing from the Gentiles. Therefore we ought to support people like these, that we may be fellow workers for the truth.”
Apart from the ethical question the issue of accountability regarding the funds received is also of little concern to these preachers. These are forms of merchandising of the gospel. In many cases the name of God is even brought into disrepute. The Christian is expected to “give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all” (Romans 12:17).

Money for ‘Ministrations’
Practices that used to be associated with visibly known aberrant ‘Christian’ groups are now openly propagated in the WoF movement. Ministers/Pastors/Prophets within this movement request for money for appointments, counseling, prayer, prophetic declarations, breaking of curses, ‘cleansing’ (whatever that means) and so forth. They request for money to be paid in order for them to fast on behalf of their members’/clients and money to buy fruits/food to break the fast. They claim or give the impression that payment is necessary to speed up answers to prayers or solutions to problems. All these are forms of merchandising the gospel.

Prophet’s Offering
Many of these ‘MoG’ within the WoF movement claim no one should come to a minister empty handed, meaning without bringing something for the minister. They request for ‘prophet’s offering’ which has no basis whatsoever in the Bible but which as usual they have devised to milk more money from the sheep. This again is merchandising of the gospel.

Sale of ‘Consecrated’/ ‘anointed’ items
Some sell various ‘consecrated’ items such as ‘anointed olive oil’, ‘anointed water’, handkerchiefs, etc for different amounts depending on the solicitants’ needs. All these are merchandising of the gospel.

Dropping of offering at the foot of the preacher whilst preaching
This is another unbiblical practice found in many WoF meetings. These preachers may claim that these offerings are spontaneously donated by the givers without being forced to do so. But the questions they need to answer are these:
- Where in Scripture do we find this mandated of any Christian to do?
- What exactly is this type of offering?
- If believers engage in a practice that is uncalled for in the scriptures shouldn’t the ministers be able to tell them to stop such a thing just as Paul asked the Lystrians not to worship him as a god?

See again what we have in Matthew 10: 8 – “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give”. If these ‘MoG’ got their ‘power’ or anointing or whatever ability from God, did they pay for them or work to receive them? What do they have that they did not receive freely from God? How come they now demand or coerce payment from people before they exercise their God-given gifts? If God gives His gifts to men freely, what makes those men think they have to put a price tag on it?

Why are so many still falling prey to the assault of every charlatan and modern prosperity gospel preacher that pops up on the stage?

The need for balance
The Scriptures clearly teaches that ministers of the gospel have the right to be supported financially by those to whom the instruction is imparted. However how this is to be done should also be in line with what is found in the Bible: It should not be left to the devices of men. It is the misuse of a God-given privilege that is being condemned. Unfortunately many of these ‘MoG’ suppose that “godliness is a way of gain” (1 Timothy 6:3) and so use the “gospel” as a way of fattening their own pockets.

The WoF movement has created the most false view of Christianity since anything that happened before the reformation. In the area of merchandizing the gospel the movement has done much more than had been done before now in coming up with avenues to get money by all means and make “merchandise” of people (2 Peter 2:3) .

Do not be deceived. Stick only to the truth as it is written in the Word and don't follow after the traditions of men. You are guilty before God if you choose to go against His revealed will in the Scripture. Don't let covetousness make you follow after teachings you see are clearly condemned by scriptures simply because you desire the things they promise. Look only to God and His Word for your direction and He will fulfill His promises to you. Revelation 18: 4 - "Then I heard another voice from heaven say:

“‘Come out of her, my people,’[b]
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;"

I REST MY CASE ON F13

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 12:55am On Aug 30, 2014

[size=14pt]Simple help to interpreting the Bible[/size]

A most important rule of Bible study is to take into account the context.
This can never be over stressed. Look at each verse in the light of the verses that surround it. Take a holistic view of the context of the book or chapter – What is the entire book or portion trying to communicate? (The questions that used to used in school exams can come in handy – who said what, to whom, where, when , how, why? etc). Also, consider the context of the whole Bible (i.e. what do other parts of the Bible have to say about this issue). Sometimes it is line upon line, precept upon precept that best help to bring out the complete picture of a matter in the Bible.

Literal Interpretation - interpret the Bible as it is stated unless the Bible itself gives you reason to take on a figurative interpretation. Differences in interpretation of what a verse in the Bible means by two Christians can more than anything be because one (or both) of them has started to interpret the Bible figuratively. There is of course, the need to allow for figures of speech.

Common Sense Meaning - consider the common sense meaning of a passage. Granted that there are deep matters covered in the Bible, but the inferences or deduction we reach from doing a good study of the Bible should not be different than what the Bible plainly says.

Interpret from known to the unknown - where you have say two passages dealing with the same issue and the meaning of one is clear to you but that of the second seem obscure start from the clear passage to try and understand the other rather seek to use the obscure one to interpret the clear one.

Look out for likes and opposites - relate things that are alike and contrast things that are different.

Other principles of interpretation exist. For example parables illustrate spiritual truths, so the thing to interpret them is not to try to assign meanings to every aspect and item in a parable but to seek out the core spiritual truth being communicated.

Tools such as concordance, study books, expository dictionaries, Bible handbooks, etc are also there for use.

Of course much more advanced tools exist in interpreting the Bible. That is where pastors come in, spending time to dig out through the help of the Holy Spirit what God seeks to communicate to his people from his Word.
These few listed points should act as basics in daily study of the Bible by most people.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 12:52am On Aug 30, 2014

[size=16pt]Astheneia[/size]

The New Strong's Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, 2010 by Thomas Nelson Publishers:

feebleness (of body or mind); by impl. malady; mor. frailty - infirmity, weakness, disease, sickness.
The word means lit., "lacking strength, weakness, infirmity" and is translated (1) "infirmities" in Mt 8:17; it most used rendering; (2) "disease" in Acts 28:9; (3) "sickness" in Jn 11:4 and (4) "weakness" in 1 Cor 2:3, 15:43; 2 Cor 12:9 ......

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 9:46pm On Aug 29, 2014

mbaemeka: I mean you no offence man but this is a long pile of nonsense. You are taking me back to things I have already explained in detail. Please refer to my posts to Candour for reference and take all the corrections where necessary.

There's nothing you have said here that I have not responded to even the one's that I flat out off point. I don't think you people know the word as much as you think you do or probably you don't understand it as much. So I find it laughable that you have now taken the position as detectives in the house of God.

If I see anything worth responding to I will. Cheers.

I take this as your usual way of evading issues.
The thread goes on for those willing to learn.
Cheers.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 8:27pm On Aug 29, 2014

mbaemeka: The same Jesus that said when you PRAY say this amd that is the same Jesus that said SPEAK to the MOUNTAIN and not SPEAK to GOD about the mountain.

What we see here is you lumping everything into PRAYER and wondering why you don't receive answers to all your prayers. When God didn't tell you to ONLY pray.

John 14:14 says if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

Who is the 'I' that will do it? It can't be Jesus himself because because he already said "the Father who dwells in him does the works" vv10. And we know the father is always on his throne because Jesus said I go to my father vv12.

So we can deduce who Jesus is referring to as the Father in Him and that is the Holy Spirit because he responds to Jesus' name vv26. Which means Jesus wasn't teaching about prayer here because in Prayer we pray to the Father in Jesus' name John 16:23.

To leave us without any doubt that he was referring to prayer in Chapter 16 he explained himself better in vv26 saying that we don't even ask him to ask the father on our behalf.

NOW with this knowledge you can understand why Peter and John didn't pray to heal the man at the beautiful gate. They did what Jesus taught them in John 14. Much later when persecution broke out they then prayed to God to cause miraculous signs to happen through them Acts 4: 29-30.

I pointed you to the fact that Jesus referred to the poor – Matt. 26:11
Paul in Romans referred to POOR SAINTS – Rom. 15:26
Galatians referred to the poor – Gal. 2:10
James also referred to the poor – James 2: 2-5

It would be unscriptural and demonic then to claim that there are or there should be NO POOR among Christians. That would contradict these portions of Scripture.

I asked you to state where in the Bible it says that poverty, disease and sickness are not from God. I await your answer.
I also await your response to the Deuteronomy 28: 21, 27, 28 , 1 Cor. 11:30, and other passages I listed. Do these show that believers can be sick? Whatever the cause?

I also asked - Which is pride - trusting in God to fulfill his word or trusting in one's self to 'use' God's word to accomplish something? I ask again, which of these is pride?

It is on record here and (repeatedly too) that I never refuted the aspect of suffering for the gospel. I am against teachings of sicknesses and poverty (that is unrelated to the gospel) as what that suffering refers to and I am not going to refrain from it as it is very scriptural.

When you attempt to see “suffering” as different from sickness and poverty it is unfortunate. Maybe again it is your (WoF) way of trying to read your meaning into words. But these two, for your information, are aspects of suffering. A sick person is suffering from some form of ailment or disease or whatever. Secondly how do you qualify or figure out when these are, to use your words, “unrelated to the gospel”?

Jesus promised them so and some scripture suggests that he may have absolved John from it (John 21:19-23). Bible History let's us know that John was placed in boiling cauldron for hours but he was unhurt and as a result was given the appellation- Saint John "the Divine" and was banished to the Island of Patmos from where he wrote the book of Revelations.

So ONLY the disciples of Jesus were to suffer? The modern day Christian is immune from it. Any direct scriptural reference?

It might interest you to know that God and not Joshua said that. Also your interpretation of the "book of the law" to refer to the law(s) of Moses is also grossly flawed. The law ALWAYS referred to ALL the books of Moses and wasn't limited to it. As more books from the prophets were given they too were added into the Law. In fact, when the apostles began teaching the gospel of Jesus they did so using the Law which was actually the Pentateuch, Prophets and the Psalms or writings.

As at the time Joshua was in the picture here, the prophets had not yet written their books. What Candour was referring to was that “the book of the law” mentioned in Joshua 1;8 consisted only those written by Moses.

Again (and by so doing Trustman can get my responses to his post) there is no separation or demarcation between the Mouth and Meditate as was used in Joshua 1:8. The Hebrew for the word meditate is Hagah and it means: silent whispering; muttering; talking; roaring. It refers to using the mouth to whisper, mutter, talk and roar the words. This is what we refer to as speaking the word. The same admonition was referred to in Jeremiah with the same word "Hagah" and in Psalms 1:1-3. If you even checked the marginal of a regular KJV they would place an alphabet aside the word meditate and refer to it as a form of talking while cross-referencing you to the book of Joshua 1:8

If meditate means 'roaring' or 'roar the words' how can you use that to explain the passage? You have again decided to pick and choose what you want? Context!!!!

The prosperity the Psalmist referred to is Prosperity, Period.

Merely stating that “the prosperity ... is prosperity' is no answer. What is the meaning of prosperity? Is it to be able to successfully do a thing or is it to have material abundance? What is the exact meaning in the context in which it was used?

There are principles that God has established on earth- laws, if you please. If anyone (Saint or sinner) is found observing them they will receive the results of such actions. One of them is giving. If a sinner has a habit of giving he will always have and if a christian is selfish he will always lack. That's what Jesus meant.

It is interesting how you interpret the scriptures. So when Jesus said God sends rain on the just and on the unjust that is taken by you to mean it is ONLY when such a person follows a ‘principle’ that God has established that he gets the ‘rain’. How did you come about this?

Mr A doesn't have money to pay his rent yet he is a tongue-talking Christian. Of course, he will not give anything to the work of the ministry because he is poor and has nothing to give. Mr B has money to pay his rent in Ikoyi but decides to live in Obalende so he can have something tangible to give towards God's work. Mr B should be commended and Mr A should meditate on the word and prosper so he can be like Mr B. That's the 'contradiction' I was trying to make and that's what I meant by "I too suffer lack from time to time because of a need or the other in God's house". That's what the early Christians did.

So you are more ‘advanced’ in spiritual things than the early Christians and can then differentiate yourself from them? Maybe you even know more than they did about the Christian way of life and that is why you are more ‘prosperous’ than them?

How could it possibly be? Sicknesses, poverty and death came as a result of the entrance of sin. If Sin as a nature is taken away then the consequences should have been too. Now if people who have their sins taken away still find themselves sinning "occasionally" does it mean the sin wasn't taken away to begin with? Whose duty is it to stay away from sin? Do you think it is possible to stay away from the acts of sin without the concomitant consequences?

Death came as a consequence of SIN. Is death taken away now – i.e. today, or are we still expecting a future victory over death?

Don't call Jesus a liar, call those who sold you the lie that Jesus was homeless liars. Jesus had a house and he lived in Capernum.

What Candour pointed to was the reference which you made. The fact that Jesus dwelt in a house does not equate to OWNING the house or houses he stayed in. So what is your point – that Jesus was so rich materially that he had a lot of real estate or what?

- You can help by teaching them that God doesn't want them poor and has made provision through his word for them to prosper.
- You can help them by giving them aides like start-up money, education, provisions, a job etc

God’s word says none of these. Quote them clearly if you can.

The healing school is not for ONLY christians. It is a means to convince Naysayers, scoffers, atheists that God's power is real and active till date. What words may not be able to do, the tangible power and demonstration of it many times does. And no, Christians should not fall sick like ANY other person for they are members of Christ's body; his flesh and his bones!! That is why I (for example, cannot be sick). Jesus took upon himself all my sicknesses and diseases and died with it on the cross. Then he woke up to a newness of life (that is not subject to sicknesses or diseases) and told me I too could walk in the same newness of life by his spirit.

So again where did Jesus ask us to set up healing schools?

As per 1 Corinthians 11:30 please study these verses you post very well before referring me to them. Do you think I don't know all these verses before posting? Ok let us examine what Paul said there:

The issue I pointed out here is that Christians were sick and God can afflict with sickness as a means of discipline. Maybe you will need to qualify your statement to mean something like ‘Good, perfect, sinless Christians don’t get sick …bla, bla, bla’

When you create threads on men and women of God and call them names you are not discerning the lord's body. You are eating of the communion unworthily and not that you are unworthy. So I am using this medium to warn you again- refrain from this evil!

It is the height of absurdity to equate creation of a thread to the issue of discerning the body. This again is how you guys in WoF TWIST the scriptures to suit what you want it to mean for you. That portion of scripture clearly showed what it addressed – the Lord’s Supper.

As per "God considers the heart more important than the words spoken" there could be no greater lie than that. Surely, what is to be spoken must first be believed in the heart first but (you will not experience the reality of it) until you speak it forth. Paul said with the heart man believes unto righteousness but you see he would never experience the SALVATION until he uses his mouth (Romans 10:9-10). That's what Paul taught us and Jesus had made references to it earlier when he said- If you believe in your heart (without doubting) and say with your mouth to the mountain- Move! it will.

See 2 Chronicles 16: 9 - "For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to give strong support to those whose heart is blameless toward him". What does the "eyes" of the Lord see here? Those who speak the word? Those who meditate by 'roaring'?
Proverbs 21:2 - "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart". What does the Lord 'weigh' here? The external and obvious or the inside?
Proverbs 23:6, 7 - "Do not eat the bread of a man who is stingy; do not desire his delicacies, for he is like one who is inwardly calculating. “Eat and drink!” he says to you, but his heart is not with you". Can the outward show be different from what is on the inside?
Isaiah 29:13 - "And the Lord said:
“Because this people draw near with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
while their hearts are far from me,
and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,
cf Matthew 15:8 & Mark 10:6
God is clearly saying in all these that man can verbalize as much as he wants whereas the heart (the inside of him) is FAR from him.
So which is the great lie? What i stated or what you alleged? Even after you said "Surely, what is to be spoken must first be believed in the heart first ..."? If what is to be spoken MUST FIRST be believed then does that not mean that the inside is more important?

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 8:04am On Aug 29, 2014

[quote author=mbaemeka]I have answered your questions in my post to Candour. God gave you his word and told you to use his word to prosper and you are telling him you will wait for him instead? That's pride.

Unfortunately you have really not. Lumping up many issues together ends up obscuring your responses.
Maybe when a lot of things are being considered at once it makes it difficult for you to deal with them well. Let's just take this your statement above.
When God gave His word "Ask and you will receive ..." or "When you pray "Pray then like this: ... ... ... And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. " and we ask and we pray do the things we expect to happen just happen on their own? Or do we leave the place prayer with faith in God that as he has promised HE WILL DO IT? In other words do the things we get in life as Christians get to us by some way independent of God or by his direct involvement? Do the words act apart from God? Which is pride - trusting in God to fulfill his word or trusting in one's self to 'use' God's word to accomplish something? I ask again, which of these is pride?
I will respond to the other issues later.

Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 7:01pm On Aug 28, 2014*

mbaemeka

Candour has done a good job at responding to you on this your post but let me add some more things.

The greatest challenge we are faced with is the presence of ignorant folks that have arrogated the right to pick and choose what they think is demonic and what is not. For some of these ignorant folks if it matches their experiences it is truth (regardless of it is word-based or not) and if it doesn't match their experiences (even if it is very word-based) it is demonic.

We are only faced with one mission and that is to show them as much of the word of God as possible and pray that the Holy Spirit; the master teacher, will help convey these truths to them and if not, [size=9pt]that the other folks whose faiths might be shaky would not be swayed by their deception and gross ignorance.

Lets look at the portion of Scripture you quoted to see who is likely to lead people into deception and who is exhibiting gross ignorance

Joshua 1:8 was very instructive. It teaches that we are to keep speaking the word of God consistently- every day and night so that we would observe to do all that is written therein. It says that by so doing 'we' and not 'God' will make our way prosperous and then have good success.

NOWHERE in Joshua 1:8 does it teach “that we are to keep speaking the word of God consistently”. Again you want to use this to justify WoF position on “speaking faith-filled words”, “name it and claim it” and the like.
This is what Joshua 1:8 says – “This book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success. ”
You chose to emphasize the ‘mouth’ their but downplayed ‘meditate’ and what those two are supposed to bring about. The key issue is ‘TO DO’. The emphasis is knowing the book of the Law and then doing what it says so that it will bring about the desired result. Note too that as a leader Joshua had to ‘speak’ the content of the book of the Law to the people; not his own words or his own imagined rules. So, “shall not depart from your mouth” has much more wider application than you are trying to make it fit into.

Merely looking at the trail of events shows where the cart is and where the horse should be. First, we Speak the words. Next, the speaking causes us to observe what is written (e.g being diligent, working hard, praying etc). And then by so doing we make our way prosperous and we experience good success.

Again NOTHING in Joshua 1:8 remotely suggests that it talks about “First, we speak the word. Next, the speaking causes … …” It is first “meditate” then do. You have to first take in the word of God before application – doing. It is first the internalizing of the word of God that will make Joshua be able to communicate (Speak) it to people.

It is very clear that the speaking of the word precedes the hardwork as against the "speaking the word, confessions or faith doesn't make one successful. . .plain hardwork does" as these ignoramuses would have us believe. Also interesting is the fact that these notion isn't singular all through scripture and was repeated ad nauseam almost verbatim from the OT to the NT. It therefore beggars belief that some would call it a new age teaching and even go even further to call it demonic.

Very clear from what? Certainly this is not derived from the Joshua 1:8 passage. Because the passage DOES NOT SAY SO.
Almost verbatim from the OT to the NT it is clear that it is God that does things for the believer (whether it is the OT believer or the NT believer) and not that it is the individual’s spoken words (apart from God) that accomplishes things in the life of the believer.

In Psalms 1:1-3, The very same teaching is expressed in clear words- the speaking of the word yields the observance which in turn yields the prosperity. The Psalmist even makes a stack comparison between the believer and the unbeliever in this instance and even brazenly declares that the unbeliever will not act so and thereby not experience it (vv.4). So we are forced to ask ourselves who to believe: the word or the ignoramuses- and of course, your guess is as good as mine.

The teaching here expressed in clear words is again “meditates”. The believer here delights in the law of the LORD and meditates on it day and night. It would amount to twisting the scripture to equate “meditate” with “speaking of the word”.
So what do we believe – what the Word says which is “meditate” or what you are trying to make it say? Words have meaning. Words are meant to communicate. No believer is at liberty to make the words given by the Almighty mean something different from what He intended.

On the notion of wealth, these ignoramuses claim "there is nothing wrong with a poor christian; the only thing that is wrong is a stingy church". While I agree with the latter aspect of the sentence, I beg to differ with the first and that is because it is not scriptural. A poor christian is as much as dangerous as a sinful one and the reason is simple- they act as though Christ died for nothing. Of course, it is possible for one to live as though poor because of the gospel. That is commendable and similar to the decisions of bulk of the early Christians. But it is a lie for anyone to claim that God makes anyone poor as a way to test them. That is very unscriptural and demonic.

Who was Jesus referring to here in Matthew 26: 11 – the poor.
Who were the poor here in Romans 15:26 – the saints or unbelievers?
What do we find in Galatians 2:10? To remember the poor.
What can you glean from James 2: 2-5?
What can you make of James 5: 1-6?
What is unscriptural and demonic is to claim that there are or there should be NO POOR among the saints. That would contradict these portions of scripture.
You need to learn to think with the scripture not use some form of philosophy or ‘teachings’ to think out of the scripture.

God has given us his word to go by. He has told us what to expect and what to reject out-rightly. We know that poverty, diseases and sicknesses are not from God same way we know sin is not from him. The same way we are taught to flee from sin is the same way we are to flee from the consequences of sin of which poverty, diseases and death are 3 of the chief consequences.

Where specifically in the Word does it say that poverty, disease, and sicknesses are not from God?
What did Deuteronomy 28: 21, 27, 28 tell the Jews?
What did Paul tell the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 11:30? Is there mention of being sick there? And as a result of what? Chastening or discipline by who?
Apart from the Epaphroditus case of Phil. 2:27, Timothy had an ailment (1 Timothy 5:23) and Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus (2Timothy 4:20). So what should these tell us?

Without a doubt the NT does mention that a christian could be poor but not that the Christian SHOULD be- it is a matter of choice. Lazarus (who wasn't a Christian at the time Jesus spoke of him) was poor and remained poor in the eyes of the rich man even while at Abraham's bossom. The rich man that died and went to hell asked Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his hand into water and let him get a taste of it. It is actually laughable how the rich man didn't ask Abraham to do so himself, instead he asked him to tell Lazarus- the same poor man Lazarus that he knew while on earth .

No one is saying ALL Christians should be poor, far from it. The issue is some Christians will be poor. So the focus in the Christian life is neither riches nor poverty but the spiritual life.
Even though you may not qualify Lazarus as a NT believer (and so not call him Christian) he was certainly a BELIEVER nonetheless. There were believers in the Christ (the Messiah – who came to be known as Jesus Christ) both in the OT as well as in the NT.
To have a place in Abraham’s bosom does not mean Lazarus was poor any longer using worldly standards. That the rich man still looked at him as “poor” (if indeed that is so) when he himself was in torments should be what is laughable, mbaemeka.

Speaking of Jesus, he was not poor as some of these ignoramuses assert neither did he refer himself as so. He had a house (John 1:37), and was responsible for feeding so many people during his stay on earth. He paid his taxes as and when due and he had a viable means of livelihood and so did his other disciples.

John 1: 37 – 39 (note the additional verses) never stated who owned where Jesus stayed. In addition, NO MAN can equate Jesus’ ministry to any other. Trying to use this to justify riches does not hold water.

Certainly, he identified with the poor and encouraged that they should be helped even as his disciples continued to teach so. I am aware of a lot of charitable works that many of today's churches are involved in to help the poor. Some of these works make the state appear incompetent and we are admonished as christians to support instead of defame them as some ignorant folks have done to their own peril.

It will amount to being an ignorant folk to think that giving all you can to the poor out of a WRONG MOTIVE will amount to anything with God.

Another worrisome idea being peddled amongst these ignorant folks is the "many Christians were sick" doctrine. That is an outright lie and an insult to the cross of Jesus. Indeed, the notion of sicknesses was expected to be an anomaly that James had to ask the brethren if any sick person was still amongst them. Then he recommended the use of the prayer of faith by the elders. The isolated instances of Timothy and Epaphroditus only shows us the importance of proper hygiene even as we live by faith, for we are not ignorant of the devices of the devil.

You saw the Corinthian references on the sick.
What is outright lie and insult to the cross of Jesus is to make it seem that the most it accomplished was physical prosperity for the believer. The most important work of the cross was resolving the sin problem. Any other derived issue pales into a distant second.
Nothing in James said it was an ‘anomaly’ to be sick. Nothing.

Speaking of Job, his life's testimony is ample proof that God can use any seemingly unfortunate situation to bring forth his goodness as long as we stay true to our faith in him- by speaking and acting his word. Job's patience and faith exemplifies exactly what Paul taught in Hebrews 6:12 and that is exactly what we endeavor to teach others as against the "your reward is ONLY in heaven gospel" that some try to sell.

Job’s adverse circumstances were PERMITTED by God. He never engaged in ‘speaking and acting his (God’s?) word” before he was delivered from his situation. When God determined that Job had passed the test, he intervened.
The Christian’s reward is NOT ONLY in heaven. He can have some here on earth. BUT the rewards come in far too many ways than to restrict them to ONLY PHYSICAL PROSPERITY, unless your definition of rewards is different from what the Scripture says.

From the foregoing we can tell that even though life or the devil can throw different challenges at us all regardless of our faiths. We are responsible for the way we choose to react to the challenges. While some pretend that they leave everything in God's sovereign hands; we can tell how feigned such acts are as we see this same lot talk about how plain hard work overrides the meditation of God's word. For others, they have known to rightfully divide the word and thereby knowing which situations require praying, using the name of Jesus, speaking the word or letting them go with the consciousness that they are already more than conquerors through it all. And in each situation this group always gives the glory and thanks to God through Jesus- the author and finisher of faith.

The believer is ALWAYS to TRUST in the Lord, cast all his care upon him, etc. In any circumstances his focus must always be on God and not in himself and what he can speak into existence. Doing otherwise, resorting to any other system is to turn away from the source of TRUE SOLUTION.

In conclusion, the obvious distinction between these Christians who act their faiths and the ignoramuses is that the former have believed and meditated so much on the word of God that the results are already evident in their lives-they prosper, dwell in health, heal the sick, feed the poor and show forth the fruits of the spirit- love, joy, peace etc. While the latter, rationalize the word so much that they have no faith and therefore do not act on the word. They in its stead, house bitterness, envy, jealousy and hatred for the former just like Joseph's brothers did him. They are required for the formers promotion and advancement (albeit oblivious to them).

In Hebrews 11 even those who in the eyes of the world (and some Christians) or in physical assessment appeared to have lost out were still commended. Why?
Physical evidence that a system or philosophy or whatever works, does not necessarily make it God-approved.

Faith is belief in God and His Word. Faith IS NOT a “great force”, a “universal principle” or the like. Faith starts first and foremost on the inside and God considers the heart to be of greater importance than spoken words.

Any bitterness, envy, jealousy and hatred toward anyone or a Christian brother or sister in particular who happens to differ doctrinally from one’s position is still SIN whether the other person is mistaken in his belief or wrong in his stance. The Christian MUST THEREFORE ensure that he continues to walk in LOVE no matter what the opposition is. Hope your calling others “ignoramus”, etc is not out of bitterness or hatred or any of the other sins you listed?

True promotion for the Christian is unknown to many. Real spiritual advancement is equally not so readily visible. Therefore a Christian’s spiritual progress is not something that can be gauged using physical or material yardstick.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 1:18pm On Aug 26, 2014

mbaemeka: Afflictions because of the gospel which is persecution for the gospel in otherwords. We know about that and generally agree on that. Paul spoke about it too in Romans 8:37 as I referred you to. He said "In (amid all these things) tribulations. . .and persecution. . .we are more than conquerors.

BTW the book of Romans 8 wasn't only about the hopes we have. He spoke about the past, present and future. The past being Christ's death; the present being what it achieved for us now I.e the Holy Spirit's presence and his effect vv11, vv26; and our future being the Immortal body we would have at his appearing.

We can't lump everything into the future when Jesus didn't.

shdemidemi: Romans 8 speaks a lot about the 'HOPE' of what is to come, if we are truly immune from tribulations as Christians today, why would we have to hope?

Pls check the 2 Timothy I quoted earlier.

Hope in Romans 8 refers to a future prospect; the anticipation of something NOT YET present. I believe that is the point Shidemidemi is presenting here. When that hope is fulfilled - when that future event becomes a reality - it will no longer be a hope.
If we are hoping - having absolute confidence - for a better future it means the present is not as good as that future. In other words what we can have NOW cannot be like what we will have in the future. For now there is still the 'present sufferings'(v.18), 'bondage of corruption'(v.21), 'eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body'(v.23)
For now there will still be 'tribulation ', 'distress', 'persecution', 'famine', 'unclothedness', 'peril', or 'sword'(v.35). These will still be a present reality. But nothing can separate us from the love of Christ in all these because the believer who rightly applies the Word of God can face them with 'hope' and other divine provisions.

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