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 Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 1:38pm On Jun 30, 2014 |
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISION ON F2: GUARANTEED HEALTH OR THE HEALTH GOSPEL[/size] Another basic doctrine preached by the WoF movement is that of guaranteed health for the Christian. WoF teachers make such bold claims as: "no believer should ever be sick". So to them physical illness is an abnormality for the Christian. According to them, physical illness has an underlying spiritual condition. Of course, "confession" also plays a part; negative words or admission of any symptom of illness promotes sickness. When a believer feels any sign of sickness in his body he is to disregard such feelings. The believer, rather than admit his feelings, he should "speak faith" to his body. The Bible certainly teaches divine healing. God still heals. But the key issue is how is healing received? Is it what man is expected to do on his own following a 'formula' or is it a matter of reaching out to God through PRAYER to get it from God? As has been previously pointed out, the teachings of the WoF movement are linked to those men and groups whose basis for their teachings and practices is not the Bible. We will therefore again see how these men's teachings on 'divine health' has been adopted entirely by the WoF movement. 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 7:48am On Jun 30, 2014 |
I bring out in this post additional matters on F1. Faith in faith or Faith as a force One of the foundational teachings generally held by WoF Movement is that of "Faith in faith". Faith, they believe, is a force that can be used to create the reality the individual wants. The faith concept used is that of 'positive confession' where if the individual speaks "faith-filled" words he can get what he wants. The WoF movement believes that faith works like a great power or energy. Through that "faith", anyone can get anything he wants: health, wealth, success, anything. However, this "faith energy" or "force" is only released through the spoken word. Only by speaking the words of faith is power released to bring about the person's wishes. The emphasis is on saying, 'seeing' or visualizing and doing whatever thing necessary (e.g. telling others) that will make you receive your wish. They believe once you 'plug in' correctly then you are bound to 'receive it'. In essence it is the individual's actions that bring about whatever he wants. God has set the "laws" in motion and stands apart from them letting the "laws" work on their own for whoever discovers and applies the correct steps. The generally held view of the movement is that the spoken word correctly expressed (positively expressed) releases power to actualize whatever reality one wants. This is where the title " Positive Confession" is also often put on this movement. Statements by some WoF preachers Kenneth Copeland: “Faith is a power force. It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force.” Kenneth Copeland: “The force of faith is released by words. Faith-filled words put the law of the Spirit of life into operation.” Charles Capps: “These principles of faith are based on spiritual laws. They work for whosoever will apply these laws.” Kenneth Hagin: “Believe it in your heart; say it with your mouth. That is the principle of faith. You can have what you say.” On the other hand WoF advocates claim that speaking 'negative' words or "negative confession" attracts negative consequences into such a person's life. The Biblical reference used in support of this position is the case of Job where he stated that what he feared had happened to him. Statements by some WoF preachers Kenneth Copeland: “Fear activates Satan, the way faith activates God.” Charles Capps: “Job activated Satan by his fear when he said, ‘the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me’ (Job 3:25). Active faith in the Word brings God onto the scene. Fear brings Satan on the scene.” So to what extent are these positions of the WoF movement supported by the Bible? The Position of the Bible The Greek word translated "faith" - Pistis - has as one of its meaning trust or confidence in God and His word. When the WoF movement is linked to groups with aberrant teachings on what faith is, it is because those wrong perceptions of what faith is has been adopted WHOLESALE by the WoF movement and adherents. The "faith" of those cults and groups is actually a reference to what the "mind" (the human mind) can do. What happened is that their "power of the mind" has been replaced with the "force of faith" by the WoF. When faith is seen as a 'spiritual law', 'universal principle' or 'universal law' like the 'law of gravity' it becomes a matter of man's personal mastery over those laws. If man can by speaking cause "things to come to pass" the nature of faith itself has been completely redefined. That redefinition of faith produces a 'faith' that is essentially not that of the Bible. A 'faith ' that is a FOCUS ON MAN and in man's ability to 'tap into', manipulate or control some 'universal law's or even God himself has nothing to do with SOLE trust in God, his power and promises: such a faith is therefore unbiblical. In Biblical faith the focus of the one exercising faith is on God or His word. Throughout the Bible what we find are accounts of men and women who anchored their faith in God not in themselves. The often quoted but misinterpreted and misapplied Hebrews chapter 11 by WoF adherents contains account of those who exhibited faith in God not in some 'law' which only the "initiates" understand. In the also often quoted Mark 11:22-24 we are told that when we pray "it will be done for you". It is God, to whom the prayer is made, who gets it done for you. Since it is not to a 'force of faith' that we are to pray, it follows logically that it is the one to whom we pray who brings about the results. N[b]owhere in the Bible do we find that we can command whatever we wish into being on our own. What we find is that we must have continual dependence and trust in God no matter the outcome of the answer to our request. [/b] Faith is to be anchored on God and on nothing else. Biblical faith is not a trust placed on WORDS or placed in "positive confession". It is a trust placed in God and his WORD. I REST MY CASE ON F1 FOR NOW. 4 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 6:07pm On Jun 29, 2014 |
BabaGnoni: [size=16pt]MY SUBMISION ON F1: FAITH IN FAITH OR FAITH AS A FORCE[/size] BabaGnoni's chart is very incisive. Virtually every WoF preacher has, in some form or another, been influenced by Kenneth Hagin. One thing that should come out clear from this us that the teachings of these preachers have their links to whatever "theology" Hagin adopted as his model. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 5:28pm On Jun 29, 2014 |
Isize=16pt]MY SUBMISION ON F1: FAITH IN FAITH OR FAITH AS A FORCE[/size] On Napoleon Hill - A look at Napoleon Hill's statement (or is it definition?) on FAITH shows that he refers to FAITH as a state of mind which may be induced, or created, by affirmation or repeated instructions to the subconscious mind, through the principle of autosuggestion. Notice he said it is induced, or created by affirmation or repeated instructions to the subconscious mind. Notice also how it is done - through the principle of autosuggestion. Now, autosuggestion is defined by the dictionary to be "influencing of one's own attitudes, behavior, or physical condition by mental processes other than conscious thought: self-hypnosis". In all these: affirmation, repeated instructions (to the subconscious mind), autosuggestion, the focus is on the individual and what he can achieve using the 'mind'. According to him "Repetition of affirmation of orders to your subconscious mind is the only known method of voluntary development of the emotion of faith". So, to him, repetitive affirmations (declarations) to the subconscious mind develops faith. But how did the Bible say faith comes? When he says "All thoughts which have been ... ... mixed with faith, begin immediately to translate themselves into their physical equivalent or counterpart" he means the actions in the mind bring about the physical realities the person who uses this faith principle desires. So to him, the subconscious mind is that through which "any desire you wish (is) translated into its physical, or monetary equivalent". He goes on then to say that it is "in a state of expectancy or BELIEF that transmutation will actually take place" In all these, it is man that is at work in his mind to create whatever realities he wants. To Napoleon Hill FAITH is what brings about the desired realities. Not faith in God but faith in FAITH. Just develop faith, exercise it, use it and you will get what you want. He says also that "This is why you are asked to write out a statement of your major purpose, or Definite Chief Aim, commit it to memory, and repeat it, in audible words, day after day, until these vibrations of sound have reached your subconscious mind". So we see here that 'vibrations of sounds' getting to the subconscious are what is relied upon. Do you see how this ties up with the 'power of the spoken word' of WoF? He states that "this formula is a law of Nature which no man has yet been able to explain. It has baffled the scientist of all ages. The psychologists have named this law " autosuggestion", and let it go at that ... ... ... The name by which one calls this law is of little importance. The important fact about it is ... ... ... it WORKS for the glory and success of mankind, if it is used constructively". We see here that the faith he talks about is a formula or a 'law of Nature'. It is for the 'glory' of mankind. To him the name by which the law is called is of little importance, so the user of the 'law' can use any suitable name to make it fit into his belief system as long the formula is still followed and applied. So the WoF can simply change the name to suit their Christian bias but still retain essentially the same principles. As evidence of those he claim used the power of FAITH he put at the head "the Nazarene" apparently referring to Jesus Christ (?). He went on to mention Christianity's basis as FAITH even though he says "people may have perverted, or misinterpreted the meaning of this great force". To him then FAITH is a "great force". He claims the achievements of Christ said to be "miracle" were done by FAITH. He says: "If there are any such phenomenon as "miracles" they are produced only through the state of the mind known as FAITH!". To him: "some teachers of religion, and many who call themselves Christians, neither understand nor practice FAITH". So it is the state of the mind (FAITH) that produces miracles. Even Christians don't understand FAITH as he (Napoleon Hill) does. This Napoleon Hill's 'FAITH' can be demonstrated by anyone. Mahatma Gandhi , of India used its 'power' in "influencing two hundred million minds" and Charles Schwab of the United States Steel Corporation also used "his FAITH, his DESIRE, his IMAGINATION, his PERSISTENCE" to create the giant organization. We see here that the 'FAITH' Napoleon Hill talks about is created from the human mind. Anyone can use it irrespective of his religious (or irreligious) inclination. This Napoleon Hill's 'FAITH' does not look like TRUST in God or His Word. It is man generated and man-centered. Biblical faith is God-centered and it is God's Word that builds up faith in the believer. Unfortunately the 'teaching' of this man - Napoleon Hill - has found expressions in the church through pastors who have imbibed its philosophy. Hill himself claimed that guides from other "dimension" gave him "supreme secret" to the world. Who can these ones from other "dimension" be? Angels or demons? What new thing - "supreme secret" - is being offered to mankind that the Bible didn't give us? 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 2:21pm On Jun 29, 2014 |
I'm glad to be back! For the usually unknown reason(s) I was sent on leave from NL. I had posted a second message after my opening words which I initially saw published but later on suddenly 'disappeared'. I think BabaGnoni noticed it. Thanks to Drummaboy, BabaGnoni and others who kept the flow of the thread going. Hopefully concentrating on each discussion item will make for more focussed deliberations and understanding by participants and viewers. 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 12:54pm On Jun 28, 2014 |
Faith in faith or Faith as a force One of the foundational teachings generally held by WoF Movement is that of "Faith in faith". Faith, they believe, is a force that can be used to create the reality the individual wants. The faith concept used is that of 'positive confession' where if the individual speaks "faith-filled" words he can get what he wants. The WoF movement believes that faith works like a great power or energy. Through that "faith", anyone can get anything he wants: health, wealth, success, anything. However, this "faith energy" or "force" is only released through the spoken word. Only by speaking the words of faith is power released to bring about the person's wishes. The emphasis is on saying, 'seeing' or visualizing and doing whatever thing necessary (e.g. telling others) that will make you receive your wish. They believe once you 'plug in' correctly then you are bound to 'receive it'. In essence it is the individual's actions that bring about whatever he wants. God has set the "laws" in motion and stands apart from them letting the "laws" work on their own for whoever discovers and applies the correct steps. The generally held view of the movement is that the spoken word correctly expressed (positively expressed) releases power to actualize whatever reality one wants. This is where the title " Positive Confession" is also often put on this movement. Statements by some WoF preachers Kenneth Copeland: “Faith is a power force. It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force.” Kenneth Copeland: “The force of faith is released by words. Faith-filled words put the law of the Spirit of life into operation.” Charles Capps: “These principles of faith are based on spiritual laws. They work for whosoever will apply these laws.” Kenneth Hagin: “Believe it in your heart; say it with your mouth. That is the principle of faith. You can have what you say.” 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Word Of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine And Proponents by trustman(op): 12:50pm On Jun 28, 2014 |
Word of Faith - The Movement's Doctrine and Proponents This thread intends to look seriously at the Word of Faith Movement's proponents, its doctrinal positions on a number of issues, other related matters and to what extent such positions line up with the Bible. Each of WoF's doctrinal position, personalities and practices will be examined in the light of clear Biblical understanding. It is hoped that at the end of the day people visiting this thread will have a better picture of what the WoF movement stands for and make their decisions accordingly. Many, even within the Word of Faith churches, may be unaware of some of the doctrinal positions of the movement. The information that will be provided in this thread should open their eyes to those doctrinal positions. The beliefs and practices of the Word of Faith Movement include, but are not limited to, the following: 1. Faith in faith or Faith as a force. 2. Guaranteed health. 3. Wealth/Prosperity. 4. The deification of man: the view that Christians are little god. 5. The Distortion of the Cross. 6. etc. The Word of Faith Movement (WoF), also known simply as "Faith" movement has become a very visible segment of professing Christianity in recent years. Personalities within the movement have become even more well-known and influential than leaders of main stream denominations. It is therefore not out of place that the teachings of a movement that hasn't gone unnoticed even by the secular world be examined under the light of the Word of God. 6 Likes 1 Share |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Before You Pay That Firstfruits Offering! by trustman(op): 11:06pm On Jan 10, 2014 |
Part 4 Closing Words All we need to do is just to stick to the challenge and instruction of the epistles regarding giving by the Christian. Period. In 2 Cor. 9: 7 we read “Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or UNDER COMPULSION, for God LOVES a CHEERFUL GIVER”. May all your giving not become wood, hay and straw at the evaluation throne of Christ. Emotions play no part in pleasing God. Remember the story of Uzzah in 2 Sam. 6: 6-7 who felt (an expression of emotion) he needed to steady the Ark of God (contrary to God’s directive) when the oxen carrying it stumbled. This appeared to be a good thing to do, a noble deed. He was struck down by God. God sticks to his Word not what man feels or wants. So, before you pay that firstfruits offering think again – is it the prescribed way of giving for the Christian way of life? Is it out of compulsion; based on man’s coercion? Is it to please your church or organization? Is it to satisfy your conscience? Or is it in line with God's prescribed way for you as a believer under the New Covenant? Remember, God sticks to his Word, nothing else! 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Before You Pay That Firstfruits Offering! by trustman(op): 11:05pm On Jan 09, 2014 |
Gombs: I will still pay my first fruit offering....Every Christian stands or falls against the Word of God. At the end of the day EACH ONE OF US will stand before the evaluation throne of Christ. It will not matter what Trustman said or what what the most highly regarded 'man of God' anywhere said. It will be a matter of what the Word said. At that time any excuse such as Eve's excuse in the garden - so and so made me do it, bla bla bla - will not matter. It will be what did God's Word say? It calls for no fainting - a christian who walks in grace should always relax knowing even in the world's tribulation peace has been offered to him. 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Inviting Tithers To A Theological Discuss with Miwerds and Candour On Tithing by trustman: 10:47pm On Jan 09, 2014 |
What Image123 & partner need to understand is that ANY part of the Bible has to be rightly divided, in other words rightly interpreted, for a CORRECT APPLICATION to be made from it. There is a popular story of a person who wanted to know the mind or will of God by using a system of (1) opening at random a page of the bible, (2) placing his hand wherever, and (3) taking the verse there as God’s directive for him. The story goes on to say that the first portion he opened was ‘and Judas went and hung himself’. Then the second portion he finger went to was ‘go and do likewise’. Now, if he were to literally go by his ‘system’ he should go and hang himself. But that would be regarded as foolishness by any objective thinker because no where in scripture tells us to seek God’s will by such ‘system’. Coming to their issue about Abraham and call for us to follow his example, a right approach would be to first know that Abraham was human (and the Bible never hid the weaknesses of even highly spiritual men like David, etc) the next thing would then be to seek to find out the same things that he did that we ought to do. How such part then lines up with other portions of scripture –particularly the New Testament – should then be examined before coming to a conclusion. If you make a blanket statement such as “If you were Abraham's children you would do what Abraham did” and then someone points out to you the THINGS Abraham did including the negative ones which by that statement should be followed and you begin to get EMOTIONAL then something is wrong somewhere. A clear understanding of this TITHING thing can only come from clearly reasoning out the scripture not by the emotions - emotions don't think, ever! It is always - line upon line, precept upon precept, a little here, a little there. 6 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Before You Pay That Firstfruits Offering! by trustman(op): 11:32pm On Jan 08, 2014 |
Part 3 Those seeking to follow the requirements of the law are severed from Christ! Galatians 5: 4 states clearly – ‘You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace’ (NIV). The ESV Bible states it this way: ‘You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace’. These are strong words; anyone who still seeks to have a right standing before God on the basis of observance of REQUIREMENTS of the law is severed from Christ; fallen away (drifted off course) from grace! Do you see then how important this issue of following the requirements of the law or living the prescribed Christian way of life is? Will you rather be with Christ or on the side of man, no matter how persuasive his argument is for you to follow the law? The Galatians faced the same situation. God’s mind for them as expressed by Apostle Paul was for them to follow the path of grace rather than legalism. In grace the INDIVIDUAL BELIEVER can choose what to give; in legalism he is pressured into giving a fixed percentage, forced pledges, firstfruits, etc. Christian giving is not to be coerced but must be a grace expression on the part of the believer for (as a sincere response to) the grace he has experienced from God. Any giving, no matter what name it is called or what scriptural passage is conjured up to justify it, which is not in line with God’s will becomes zero before God. The story of the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18: 9-14 illustrates this vividly. The religious legalistic man – the Pharisee – said amongst other things: ‘I give tithes of all that I get’, but Jesus said the one – the tax collector- who acted in grace ‘went down to his house justified (before God), rather than the other who reeled out his personal score card of adhering to physical requirements)’. 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Before You Pay That Firstfruits Offering! by trustman(op): 11:47pm On Jan 06, 2014 |
Part 2 Jesus and the abolishing of the law Many argue that Jesus said ‘Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them’ Matt. 5: 17. Most interpretations ignore both the context and other tools of biblical interpretation. Consequently wrong interpretation will lead to a wrong application. In that portion of scripture, Jesus clearly said that he came ‘to fulfill them (the Law & the prophets)’. So when in Romans 10:4 we read : ‘Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes’ and Galatians 3: 24-25: ‘So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we ARE NO LONGER UNDER [/b]a guardian’ we should clearly see that what we have here is a position or situation where [b]Jesus fulfilled ALL THE REQUIREMENTS of the law so that in believing in him we are counted as meeting God’s standard. Through Adam all are counted as sinners; all without exception including the baby just born this very moment. On the other hand, as a result of Christ’s satisfaction of God’s REQUIREMENTS anyone who expresses FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE is counted as having a right standing with God. Such a one is counted as having fulfilled all the requirements of God – whatever they are. This right standing is not based on external observances by the individual or by following a set of REQUIREMENTS but by, as it were, piggy-backing on what Christ has done. He alone was able to DO all that God required. He alone is qualified (see Revelation 5:5). No one in heaven or on earth qualifies! So when we read such passages as in Heb. 10:1a – ‘The law is ONLY A SHADOW of the good things that are coming – not the realities themselves …’ or Gal.5:1 ‘It is for FREEDOM that Christ has set us free. STAND FIRM, THEN, and DO NOT let yourselves be BURDENED again by a yoke of slavery’, we see the decision of the Holy Spirit and the Apostles in Acts 15 reinforced. 4 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Nigerian Religious Junk! by trustman(op): 8:46pm On Jan 05, 2014 |
Here's a piece that shows how Nigerians are thought of elsewhere in Africa: http://www.conradmbewe.com/2011/02/nigerian-religious-junk.html |
| Christianity Etc › Before You Pay That Firstfruits Offering! by trustman(op): 4:39pm On Jan 05, 2014 |
Part 1 Before you pay that firstfruit offering understand what the word of God says. You listen to your man of God and seek to do what he says. Will you then not much more listen to God’s own word and obey it? The Apostles in the book of Acts of the Apostles settled once for all the issue of payment of firstfruits offering. In deliberating on the issue of whether the Christian is expected to obey the Law of Moses of which part the firstfruits offering is amongst others, a decision by the Holy Spirit was reached. What was it? The Holy Spirit led the church to see that NO BURDEN [/b]was to be laid on the Christians regarding the external rituals or observances of the Mosaic Law. So in Acts 15: 28 we read: “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us [b]NOT TO BURDEN you with ANYTHING BEYOND THE FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS: you are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things”. Now what led to the above declaration? It was whether the gentiles Christians were to be required to OBEY THE LAW OF MOSES – Acts 15:5. The decision reached shows us clearly then that the simple answer is that the gentile Christians are not required to obey the Law of Moses. The question to you then is, according to the line of a song that was popular some time ago, “Whose report will you believe?” Will you take the simplicity of the Word of God and choose to go by it or do you prefer man’s position; man’s stand? The word of God says you as a believer are to be under NO BURDEN; man say no you must do it this way or that way. The issue has been resolved yet many still stumble on it. If there is anything that is a matter of life and death for the Christian, as many today push them to be, will the Apostles leave them out of ALL that we have in writing from them; will they? 5 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: COZA Members Ask Pastor Biodun To Tell The Truth About The Sex Scandal by trustman: 10:55pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
senator2b: i don't know why people are so much interested in this COZA issue,the bible said "Touch not my Anointed and do my Prophet no harm" let us all be guided by the BIBLE and also note that the word of God said that the just shall live by their faith. so people allow God and time to take control of this situations. if he has said God told him to be quiet let us watch cos i know my God is a consuming fire it doesn't habit sins.Who was the Bible referring to in the portion you just quoted above? Go back to it and re-read the entire portion. Think hard before you answer. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Inviting Tithers To A Theological Discuss with Miwerds and Candour On Tithing by trustman: 9:59pm On Jan 04, 2014 |
DrummaBoy: @trustman,.so we can say Image quoted U correctly. But did U mean what he claimed U meant or he succeeded in twisting your words?He tried to tie my quote to his wrong conclusions from faulty premises. Jesus Christ never said to the church age believer that tithes OUGHT TO BE DONE. His specific message to the Christian for his spiritual life came via the Apostles and there is no record of their holding a position different from what the Holy Spirit gave in Acts 15. He deliberately chose to quote only the part of an entire thought which he wanted to use to support his claim. I was really seeking to get him and his partner to see that God's final Word has spoken to us about A NEW COVENANT which is what the book of Hebrews is largely about. What the Christian therefore needs to focus on is what this New Covenant is all about rather seeking to go back to ANYTHING old whether pre-law or of the LAW. 3 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Inviting Tithers To A Theological Discuss with Miwerds and Candour On Tithing by trustman: 11:10pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
Image123: In the words of trustman on the sister thread, "God’s final Word - is superior to ALL. We need to say ‘Yes, Sir’ rather than engage in a wrestling match with God. What we should seek is how the Son is superior, what things the Son has brought that shows his superiority, and so on."Jesus Christ lived in a different era from the church age. His period on earth can be seen as a bridge between the OLD and the NEW – between the era of Israel and the church age. When he was here on earth the era of Israel and God’s plan for her was still in operation. He was therefore right to emphasize to Israel issues relating to her both as a nation and as God’s people. However, when the era of Israel was terminated, howbeit for some time, the church REPLACED Israel. God INSTITUTED A CHANGE! The church took the place of Israel. When therefore the book of Hebrews tells us that God has in these last days SPOKEN TO US BY HIS SON he (God) wants us to LISTEN and not to fall by the wayside as the people of old did and were disciplined by God. We are therefore to seek what the SON has spoken to us for our benefit for these last days. When a CHANGE came what constitutes the change that the SON BROUGHT ABOUT? How can we avoid following the examples of those of OLD who failed? God instituted a way of spiritual life for Abraham and Jacob, then for Israel as a nation. When the church came he instituted something NEW, DIFFERENT from what Abraham and Jacob had and different from what he had for Israel. The same God, yes, but CHANGES INTRODUCED. What the Christian then needs to do therefore is FIND OUT what his spiritual lifestyle should be under the NEW ORDER OF GOD – the New Covenant. Can we therefore OBJECTIVELY LOOK AT the New Testament epistles and claim that “… Christ Jesus said that tithes OUGHT TO BE DONE”? Did the SON bring better things? Are the better things he brought superior to tithe? Is he - the Alpha and the Omega - superior to tithes? Did the Apostles short-change us? 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Inviting Tithers To A Theological Discuss with Miwerds and Candour On Tithing by trustman: 10:22pm On Jan 03, 2014 |
When Image123 & Co quote scripture and the reach conclusions directly unrelated to the passage quoted beats one. For example, Heb. 13:8 is quoted – “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever” and the conclusion reached is - In other words, He has not changed His doctrine or opinion. He has not changed His stance and advice. Now in that portion of scripture who or what does not change – Jesus Christ or what he institutes or does? He remains the same, yes, but can he change THINGS including his directives to man? Can God change the order of things? Is God not the SAME one who said in Revelation21:5 – “ And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful”. Can the SOVEREIGN of the universe change ANY INSTITUTION which in his supreme wisdom he deems fit to change? Can he make all things new thereby bringing about CHANGE? And what is change? Can it be about a replacement of an old order for a new one? 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Inviting Tithers To A Theological Discuss with Miwerds and Candour On Tithing by trustman: 9:56pm On Jan 02, 2014 |
What Image123 and partner need to understand are these: - They cannot run away from the fact that tithing is given an undue emphasis today that it does not require. If not this discuss may never have come up. When discussants focus on it it is not because of cherry picking. It is because it is a necessary focus on an issue in view. If animal sacrifice were the bone of contention there will necessarily be more focus on it that any other issue. - Not being under the Law includes the issue that anything clearly shown to be abrogated under the Law is no longer required of the Christian today. What will show whether a thing under the Law - whether it is called weightier matter or whatever - is still in operation today is if it is clearly expressed in the New Testament epistles. And these are clearly seen in the epistles. The spirit of God cannot lead any man of God apart from the specific scriptures that are more relevant to the Christian today than those that are not – The New Testament epistles. Thus the spirit of God can NEVER ask a Christian to resort to animal sacrifices TODAY even though these were a NECESSARY and BINDING requirement in the Word of God for a time – only for a time. Failure of many preachers to find things in the New Testament to support their skewed positions on many issues make them to resort to the Old Testament almost always. When they therefore cannot find clear instruction on any issue such as tithing in the New Testament they must then try to prove that things in the old – things in the Law – must still be applicable to the Christian today. - God remains the God of Abraham and Jacob. But when God says that His SON – God’s final Word - is superior to ALL we need to say ‘Yes, Sir’ rather than engage in a wrestling match with God. What we should seek is how the Son is superior, what things the Son has brought that shows his superiority, and so on. If tithe is all they see in ALL SCRIPTURE rather than the SON then such a Christian’s spiritual status needs to checked very well. 5 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Inviting Tithers To A Theological Discuss with Miwerds and Candour On Tithing by trustman: 8:45pm On Dec 31, 2013 |
Mark & Candour are doing a good job at clearly bringing out the truth about tithing. There are so many unanswered questions by our pro-tithe brethren: If the apostles DID NOT collect tithes, who gave the RIGHT to pastors of today to collect tithes from anybody? Where is the moral standing for them to condemn any child of God to hell because he/she refuses to submit 10% of his/her income to them? When the apostles whom God used to establish Christianity KNEW they had NO RIGHT under heaven to collect or ask for it and therefore DID NOT COLLECT OR ASK FOR IT? Our brothers state that “we are the Israel of God,” and we wonder if pastors have become the Levites in this Israel of God? I trust our brothers are good bible students (we all are bible students) and would know or should know about the coming kingdom when Christ will reign physically here on earth? It’s beyond the scope of this discussion but when they quote Isaiah 66, we expect them to know that it’s still a very future dispensation. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH US NOW. A fitting conclusion to this section by them is also worth stating: Tithes belong in the law of Moses. Our brothers agree that we are not under the law. They should therefore stop picking convenient practices from the law, but more importantly, they should stop panel beating the law to suit whatever use they wish to put it to. The apostles set the example of freewill offerings and that is what Christ himself taught them when he sent them out to preach. He asked them to receive whatsoever people gave them, he didn’t ask them to collect tithes because he knew better and we know that too today. If Christ didn’t need it, neither do we. If the apostles and the early church didn’t need it, neither do we. 5 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: A Very Interesting Verse Of The Bible. by trustman: 5:22pm On Dec 29, 2013 |
Zikdik: Genesis 6:3:Read in context (starting from verse one and going a little after the portion you quoted) the portion you referred to means that God was giving mankind a period of 120 years before executing judgement on the earth. It was not referring to how long any man will live before dying. 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by trustman(op): 10:02pm On Dec 26, 2013 |
Church age giving is different from what obtained in Israel. Tithing was part of giving in the nation Israel and was compulsorily required of both believer and unbeliever in the nation. The principle of giving found in 2 Corinthians 9:7 make clear that the believer gives “as he has purposed in his heart (not as a tithe which was obligatory on all); not grudgingly or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful ( rightly motivated) giver.” The inner attitude of the heart is what is most important in Christian giving not the amount given. Any significant thing required of the Christian will be found in the New Testament epistles which constitute the blueprint for living the Christian life. - James 2:10 - "Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" Galatians 5:3 – “Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised (one aspect of God’s instruction that every Israelite was to fulfill) that he is obligated to obey the whole law”. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes And Offerings by trustman: 8:19pm On Dec 26, 2013 |
Joagbaje: Tithing is a kingdom principle , offering is a kingdom principle . Either you pay it or give it . It doesn't make a difference .This kingdom principle thing where does it come from and what is it? 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: we are no longer under law but grace, but you do err christians. by trustman: 8:08pm On Dec 26, 2013 |
Bidam: I can't believe this, so do we just stop at believe? Even demons believe and tremble.Many believe Jesus was just a carpenter's son. Many today believe he was just a good man. Others believe he was just a prophet. So, my dear Bidam, it depends on what you believe him to be. The demons believe what according to the passage you quoted? JESUS HIMSELF MADE THAT STATEMENT I QUOTED, BIDAM. HE MADE THAT STATEMENT. THE ISSUE THEN IS FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND IT RATHER THAN THROW IT AWAY. WHAT DOES THE STATEMENT MEAN? GIVE IT A THOUGHT, THOUGH I CAN ALMOST PREDICT YOUR ANSWER. John 6: 29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: we are no longer under law but grace, but you do err christians. by trustman: 6:02pm On Dec 25, 2013 |
MEILYN: What are you believing? You believe what Christ says. What did Christ say? Keep the laws, thats how you believe in Christ. Dont be deceived.John 6: 29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” ... ... to BELIEVE IN (trust in, faith in) ... ... THE ONE ( a person - Jesus ) ... ...he (God the Father ) has sent. 2 Likes |
| Christianity Etc › Re: we are no longer under law but grace, but you do err christians. by trustman: 5:17pm On Dec 25, 2013 |
MEILYN: Love Love Love. According to you folks, love is an emotion. Am tired jare. He who has an ear let him hear. I am off for good.John 6: 29 - Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” |
| Christianity Etc › Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by trustman(op): 5:04pm On Dec 25, 2013 |
Christmas brought good things to man and particularly the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews 9: 11 - … … Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here … … The goods things when appropriated are to enable the believer make every day Christmas. The old is gone, including forced tithing, the NEW has come! Merry Christmas!!! |
| Christianity Etc › Re: we are no longer under law but grace, but you do err christians. by trustman: 4:59pm On Dec 25, 2013 |
shdemidemi: As valid as the answer Jesus gave is, it was not said to the church but was sufficient to shut the mouths of these scribes and Pharisees. The major doctrines of the church cannot be found in Jesus earthly ministry but his doctrine after He paid the price the law of Moses demanded.Absolutely! Any SIGNIFICANT thing required of the Christian will be found in the New Testament epistles which constitute the blueprint for living the Christian life. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by trustman(op): 11:33pm On Dec 24, 2013 |
Bidam: @trustman and shdemidemi.. You are all deviating from the topic of discuss which is tithe.. You can open an individual threads and invite me for the discuss..Thanks.You are either a clown or an individual divorced from reality. Why did i make this above statement? Did you really read my last post and still say i deviated from the topic of tithe? Just look at the second line. What is it about? Politics? The key issue is that the New Covenant we are in, proven by the passages referenced, has no place for a compulsory tithing thing. Will you be your characteristic self and 'run' or will you really respond in all honesty? Maybe just you'll carefully go through time i give it again below: Again you failed to respond to SIMPLE questions and issues. Did God command the Christian to tithe? If so show me from the New Testament epistles. Israel was a NATIONAL ENTITY WITH GEOGRAPHICAL BOUNDARIES – a real estate, if you like - and had a national and spiritual life based on the Mosaic Law. Does the church age believer belong to A SINGLE NATIONAL ENTITY? What this passage - Weymouth New Testament In Him the distinctions between Jew and Gentile, slave and free man, male and female, disappear; you are all one in Christ Jesus.Galatians 3:28[i][/i] means is that ‘IN CHRIST’ EVERY RACIAL, CLASS/SOCIAL AND GENDER DISTINCTION is wiped off. A NEW spiritual SPECIES is now set in place; again showing that something NEW came in to replace the OLD. The implication of this has many ramifications. You may not be matured enough to grasp it yet. On the contrary it does not mean that what the Jew was required to do the Church age believer is still to do. I HAVE POINTED THIS OUT TO YOU IN SEVERAL PASSAGES. The other one you also quoted: 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts means that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; in other words doing it or not is irrelevant but keeping God’s command which in CONTEXT of Galatians is clearly spelt out. What commission was given to Paul by Jesus Christ when he called him into ministry? Go and check it out. Lastly, Bidam, what is your understanding of these portions of the scripture which I quote again: Preferably take them verse by verse. Hebrews 1 1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things. 3 The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side of God, the Great One in heaven. 4 The Son became much greater than the angels, and God gave him a name that is much greater than any of their names. Hebrews 8:6 But the work that has been given to Jesus is much greater than the work that was given to those priests. In the same way, the new agreement [/b]that Jesus brought from God to his people is much greater than the old one. And the new agreement is based on better promises. 7 If there was nothing wrong with the [b]first agreement, then there would be no need for a second agreement. 13 God called this a new agreement, so he has made the first agreement old. And anything that is old and useless is ready to disappear. Hebrews 9:1 The first agreement had rules for worship and a place for worship here on earth. 10 These gifts and sacrifices are only about food and drink and special washings. They are only rules about the body. God gave them for his people to follow until the time of his new way. Hebrews 10 The law gave us only an unclear picture of the good things coming in the future. The law is not a perfect picture of the real things. I would really like to have your expose' on them. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by trustman(op): 12:05am On Dec 24, 2013*. Modified: 7:21am On Dec 24, 2013 |
Bidam: Infact in the NT God requires we mature and grow from givings of 10%.Again you failed to respond to SIMPLE questions and issues. Did God command the Christian to tithe? If so show me from the New Testament epistles. Israel was a NATIONAL ENTITYWITH GEOGRAPHICAL BOUNDARIES – a real estate, if you like - and had a national and spiritual life based on the Mosaic Law. Does the church age believer belong to A SINGLE NATIONAL ENTITY? What this passage - Weymouth New Testament In Him the distinctions between Jew and Gentile, slave and free man, male and female, disappear; you are all one in Christ Jesus.Galatians 3:28[i][/i] means is that ‘IN CHRIST’ EVERY RACIAL, CLASS/SOCIAL AND GENDER DISTINCTION is wiped off. A NEW spiritual SPECIES is now set in place; again showing that something NEW came in to replace the OLD. The implication of this has many ramifications. You may not be matured enough to grasp it yet. On the contrary it does not mean that what the Jew was required to do the Church age believer is still to do. I HAVE POINTED THIS OUT TO YOU IN SEVERAL PASSAGES. The other one you also quoted: 1 Corinthians 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts means that neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; in other words doing it or not is irrelevant but keeping God’s command which in CONTEXT of Galatians is clearly spelt out. What commission was given to Paul by Jesus Christ when he called him into ministry? Go and check it out. Lastly, Bidam, what is your understanding of these portions of the scripture which I quote again: Preferably take them verse by verse. Hebrews 1 1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things. 3 The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side of God, the Great One in heaven. 4 The Son became much greater than the angels, and God gave him a name that is much greater than any of their names. Hebrews 8:6 But the work that has been given to Jesus is much greater than the work that was given to those priests. In the same way, the new agreement [/b]that Jesus brought from God to his people is much greater than the old one. And the new agreement is based on better promises. 7 If there was nothing wrong with the [b]first agreement, then there would be no need for a second agreement. 13 God called this a new agreement, so he has made the first agreement old. And anything that is old and useless is ready to disappear. Hebrews 9:1 The first agreement had rules for worship and a place for worship here on earth. 10 These gifts and sacrifices are only about food and drink and special washings. They are only rules about the body. God gave them for his people to follow until the time of his new way. Hebrews 10 The law gave us only an unclear picture of the good things coming in the future. The law is not a perfect picture of the real things. I would really like to have your expose' on them. |
| Christianity Etc › Re: we are no longer under law but grace, but you do err christians. by trustman: 10:27pm On Dec 22, 2013 |
Bidam: Ok. was genesis written by Moses? haibe: Just answer the question please.This is how Bidam typically tries to evade issues. once he knows that his answer will 'put him at risk' of his held position he quickly look for an 'escape route' which characteristically is to refuse to directly answer a question or respond to clear statement. 1 Like |
| Christianity Etc › Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by trustman(op): 10:17pm On Dec 22, 2013 |
Bidam: This is the kind of statement by the op i am saying that is unchristian to start with, who made him a judge over peeps who tithe?To restate my position: Some will claim ‘tithing by faith’ which perhaps means they say they choose to tithe like Abraham and so are not doing it under the law since Abraham did it pre-law. If it is to massage their consciences that they do this, fine. But they still need to show if God commanded or instructed them, as Christians, to do it that way. Is the Christian the same as the Jew? Did the Apostles fail to give us all the information we needed in the New Testament epistles by not mentioning TITHING as being required of the Christian even once? See what the book of Hebrews says: Hebrews 1 1 In the past God spoke to our people through the prophets. He spoke to them many times and in many different ways. 2 And now in these last days, God has spoken to us again through his Son. He made the whole world through his Son. And he has chosen his Son to have all things. 3 The Son shows the glory of God. He is a perfect copy of God’s nature, and he holds everything together by his powerful command. The Son made people clean from their sins. Then he sat down at the right side of God, the Great One in heaven. 4 The Son became much greater than the angels, and God gave him a name that is much greater than any of their names. Hebrews 8:6 But the work that has been given to Jesus is much greater than the work that was given to those priests. In the same way, the new agreement [/b]that Jesus brought from God to his people is much greater than the old one. And the new agreement is based on better promises. 7 If there was nothing wrong with the [b]first agreement, then there would be no need for a second agreement. 13 God called this a new agreement, so he has made the first agreement old. And anything that is old and useless is ready to disappear. Hebrews 9:1 The first agreement had rules for worship and a place for worship here on earth. 10 These gifts and sacrifices are only about food and drink and special washings. They are only rules about the body. God gave them for his people to follow until the time of his new way. Hebrews 10 The law gave us only an unclear picture of the good things coming in the future. The law is not a perfect picture of the real things. After all the above you still think the Old and the New are the same? And that ‘CHRIST DID NOT BRING ANYTHING NEW.PAUL NEVER SAID ANYTHING NEW.’ ? Think again, Bidam! |
