₦airaland Forum

Abuamam:
Show me ONE verse that RECOMMENDS the extant bible to the prophet (saw). Allah says that Muslims are enjoined to believe in the earlier REVEALED scriptures; the fact that there were prophets and that their revelations were from God... eg INJEEL; not letters from Paul to his sheep.

“Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, “This is from God,” to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby” [al-Baqarah 2:79]

Guess which 'book' the above verse is referring to.

Was it not the same Torah and Injeel allah said they corrupted and still recommended it?

Was it God who wrote the Torah for Moses with His own hand or He spoke to Moses and he (Moses) wrote it down with his own hand?

Muhammad was said to receive quranic revelations, which was written by his scribes, most of them written after his death. Was therefore the quran not written by men's hand? Allah did not write the quran with his own hand. I have islamic records of how it was written with many verses lost as a result of memorizers who died in war.

Was it God who wrote the Gospel for Jesus with His own hand or Jesus spoke and was written down by the disciples?
It is your quran that says the disciples who wrote the Gospel bore true witness, why do you or allah condemn their true witness?

But when Jesus
became conscious of their
disbelief, he cried: Who will be my
helpers in the cause of Allah? The
disciples said: We will be Allah's
helpers. We believe in Allah, and
bear thou witness that we have
surrendered (unto Him)

Our Lord! We
believe in that which Thou hast
revealed and we follow him whom
Thou hast sent. Enrol us among
those who witness (to the truth
(Quran2:52-53).

After he had said the above verses, it is a surprise for him to still say the scripture is corrupt. How reliable are allah's words?

What is the difference between Moses hearing from God and writing it down with his hand, Jesus speaking and disciples writing it down with their hands and Muhammad receiving messages and scribes writing them with their hands.

Tell me, which existed in the time of Muhammad, the Torah and Injeel as separate Books or the Bible? Was it inside the Injeel, Christians called Jesus the Son of God, which allah objected to at Muhammad's time or the Bible?

If it was the Bible, then it means allah recognizes it as the book of the Christians. If it was the Injeel, it means it is the same as the Bible, in which Jesus is called the Son of God.

Don't tell story, just address the issues raised here point by point.

truthman2012:
Stop lying my friend. Allah was referring Muhammad to readers of the earlier scriptures before the quran, according to 10:94.

Answer these questions and your lies will be exposed:

Who read or knew the quran before Muhammad that allah was referring him to?

How could allah refer him to readers of quran that was just being formed at that time?

Who knew the quran better than Muhammad, the receiver of the revelation that allah would be referring to?

Because of the many errors in the quran, which muslims are trying to cover up these days by translating and re-translating, in no long time, the whole of the quran will be changed.

When will you stop deceiving yourselves?

@ Trustworthiness

Waiting for you.

Trustworthiness:
In this verse you quoted, we Muslims believe in what was revealed to all the prophets from God and not what they called the book of God that as have been tampered with or written by themselves. See below.



Quran 2:136. Say, ‘We believe in Allâh and in that (the Qur’ân) which has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Abraham and Ismâîl and Isaac and Jacob and his children, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and (we believe) in what was given to (all other) Prophets from their Lord. We (while believing in them) make no discrimination between anyone of them, and to Him do we submit ourselves entirely.’

قُولُوا آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَاقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالْأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

Explanation:

2:136 This verse also relates the cosmopolitan nature of Qur’ânic teaching. All prophets of Allâh and all revelations coming from Him must be accepted; no distinction is to be made between one prophet and any other. The Holy Qur’ân recognizes the prophet of the Jews and the Christians, and the prophets of all the other nations. The Jew thinks that God revealed the truth only to the Israelites; The Christian thinks that the truth was revealed only to Jesus; The Hindu thinks that God revealed the truth only to the sages of India and Zoroastrian thinks that the truth was revealed to Zoroaster alone. The Buddhists are no different. It is part of the merit of Islam that it is the only religion that recognizes the prophets of all countries and of all nations, and of all times.

Which of my questions are you answering here? You seem to be beating about the bush.

I don't care what you believe, my interest is my questions.

Trustworthiness:
We Muslims have clear understanding of what the Quran says. Mere looking at what you type in your post already shows you are trying to translate the verse of the Quran to suite your bigot mind. See below the true translation and explanation of one of the verses you quoted below:

Quran 10:94. And if you (O reader!) are in doubt regarding that which We have revealed to you, ask those who have read this Book (- the Qur’ân) before you. (They will tell you that) there has, in fact, come to you the perfect truth from your Lord, so be not of the contenders at all.

فَإِن كُنتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِّمَّا أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِكَ ۚ لَقَدْ جَاءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ

Explanation:

10:94 “And if you are in doubt”(فَإِن كُنتَ فِي شَكٍّ); in doubt is that particular reader of the Holy Book who because of his limited Divine knowledge is unable to grasp the underlying meanings and the message. If someone is unable to understand the message being conveyed, he is advised to refer to the explanation given by the people blessed with Divine knowledge. As such people may be difficult to find in the age of the reader, the reader is told to refer to the explanations given by the learned of the past; “who were before him”. This verse is under attack by Christian missionaries, and is one of their favourite to try and prove that the Holy Prophet was in great doubt, so he should consult the learned of the past; Christians and Jews. Some simple minded Muslims get easily convinced and are misled with this argument and start to think that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is being addressed here,however, this is not the case. Neither 94 nor 95 are being addressed to the Holy Prophet (pbuh), but to the readers of the Holy Qur'ân endowed with less knowledge and weak in belief. The meaning of this becomes clear when we read the admonition in verse 95: “Be not of those who cry lies to the messages of Allâh” (Râzî). The Holy Prophet never cried lies to the messages he received from the Exalted One. It is the reader who out of lack of knowledge and misunderstanding rejects the messages of the Holy Qur’ân. Moreover, in the words, “Which We have revealed to you” no doubt tells us that the recipient of the Revelation was the Holy Prophet and not the reader; still it is not a proof that the Holy Prophet is being addressed here. Careful reading of the following verses makes the subject matter clear. The opening words of the next section we read: “Say, O you people! If you are in doubt regarding my creed,” (10:104) refer to those addressed in 10:94. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) is said to have the greatest certainty about the Revelation which he received and never doubted. Similarly in 17:23 we read “Your Lord has enjoined you to be good to parents". Here too the reader is being addressed, and not the Holy Prophet (pbuh) who was an orphan child.

Stop lying my friend. Allah was referring Muhammad to readers of the earlier scriptures before the quran, according to 10:94.

Answer these questions and your lies will be exposed:

Who read or knew the quran before Muhammad that allah was referring him to?

How could allah refer him to readers of quran that was just being formed at that time?

Who knew the quran better than Muhammad, the receiver of the revelation that allah would be referring to?

Because of the many errors in the quran, which muslims are trying to cover up these days by translating and re-translating, in no long time, the whole of the quran will be changed.

When will you stop deceiving yourselves?

Trustworthiness:
I think the problem of you Christians is high level of ignorance. That is why Jesus, according to you bible, says most of his people will perish because they are ignorant.

In Islam, bible is never referred to as the word of God but the Injil. The injil is the scripture revealed to Prophet Isa (Jesus christ) and not the bible. The word Bible is derived from the Greek word biblo, which means collection of books. While the injil, some translate it as Gospel.

That is why you will see in the beginning of the books that comprises the new Testament, "Gospel According to".

Note the word "According To". For instant, Gospel According to Mark.

In English language, the word "According to" means that what so and so says or believed in but not necessarily the person narrating it believed in it. So, the book "Gospel According to Mark,", that is part of the New Testament, is a book written by someone on what Mark believes or narrated of the teachings of Jesus. Such narration is not God's word. If you carefully, without any iota bigotry in you mind and head, study the Qur'an, you will understand the difference between the word of God and words of narration by men, which your bible represents.

My friend, your post is irrelevant to the question raised.

Was it the Bible or Torah and Injeel allah said were corrupted and yet recommended them to Muhammad? If the Bible is not the same as Torah and Injeel according to you, it means allah was not referring to the Bible as corrupt but Torah and Injeel.

Now answer the question all of you have been dodging: Was allah not aware of the corruption of the Jews and Christians Scripture before he recommended them to Muhammad?

Abuamam:
Recycling an old topic after it has been treated before seems to be your trademark. What did you not understand about explanations in the former discussion on this topic? Or are you trying to get us to ignore the post so you can crow over how Muslims cannot answer you?

For the nth time. The Qur'an states that the Injeel was given to Jesus which he preached (Rilwayne001 opened a thread on that, you people did not know what to say). The Bible is a collection of picked, mostly anonymously written 'scripture', chosen arbitrarily from among thousands of similar 'scriptures' by the Nicean council in the 4th century CE to affirm the established doctrine of the trinitarian church. The Injeel cannot therefore, be the same as the bible.

Jesus never read or preached the 'New Testament'; he preached the words of the injeel. Therefore, the Injeel cannot be the Bible.

Jesus did not write anything of the Injeel down; therefore the Bible cannot be the Injeel. It can only contain part of it.

Some of the traditions within the extant bible, relating to his sayings, MIGHT be true. It is impossible to extract sand from garri now. So we see it as corrupted (see definition of corrupted in the dictionary). It is a common fallacy that Muslims say that the entire bible is false; we say it is corrupted; that is, other doctrines have been mixed in.

God does not make mistakes or contradict himself. The Bible; both OT and NT are full of errors, contradictions and mistakes. Therefore the bible cannot be the Injeel given to Jesus by God.

Once more, for the sake of the blind, deaf, dumb and mentally challenged, Allah endorsed the Injeel, NOT the extant Bible.

Lastly, I have no respect for any person who says that the Quran should be verified, while he believes in a bible that has no certainty of authorship... even according to bible scholars. It shows that he/she is so blind to the beam in his/ her eyes, that there is no way I can expect him/ her to point out any purported speck in mine.

Now wait 2 days then go open another robotic thread on the same topic; copy-pasting the same tired narrative from the same tired website.

Trash!

Only one question is asked.

Allah recommended the Jews and Christians Scriptures to Muhammad. He later said the Scriptures are corrupted. The question therefore is: Was he (allah) not aware of the corruption before he recommended same to Muhammad? Simple.

Muhammad was said to ascend to heaven. Read the account here:

http://www.sunnah.org/ibadaat/fasting/ascen3.htm

But before ascending, his heart had to be cleansed by 'angel Gabriel'. It shows islam led by Muhammad is not holy enough to get into heaven without further cleansing. Had he died before the 'cleansing', would he have qualified to enter heaven? What about billions of islam faithfuls (muslims) who did not have the privilege of getting 'cleansed' before they died?

When he got to 'the heavens', he claimed he saw some prophets of old, who lived by the Scripture, which was said to be corrupt before the time of Jeremiah. The lesson here is that the 'the corrupt' Scripture is good enough to take the believers to heaven without further cleansing.

Worthy of mention is the fact that there were jihadists who fought in the course of allah along with Muhammad but were not seen by him when he got to 'heaven' probably because they were not 'cleansed'. Where were they?

''I was brought al-Burg who is an animal white and long,
larger than a donkey but
smaller than a mule, who
would place his hoof at a
distance equal to the range of
vision. I mounted it and came
to the Temple (Bait-ul Maqdis
in Jerusalem), then tethered it
to the ring used by the
prophets'' ( Sahih Muslim, Vol.
1, p. 101).

Muhammad was tested in Jerusalem.

''Allah's Apostle was presented
with two cups, one containing
wine and the other milk on the
night of his night journey at
Jerusalem. He looked at it and
took the milk. Gabriel said,
"Thanks to Allah Who guided
you to the Fitra (i.e. Islam); if
you had taken the wine, your
followers would have gone
astray". ( Sahih al-Bukhari , Vol.
6, p. 196).

Before proceeding on the journey to heaven he was tested in the Temple of Jerusalem. Why Jerusalem and not Kaaba? It shows Jerusalem is the city of God, not Kaaba.

Then allah enjoined the number of times muslims should be praying per day.

Then Allah enjoined fifty
prayers on my followers.
When I returned with this
order of Allah, I passed by
Moses who asked me, "What
has Allah enjoined on your
followers?" I replied, "He has
enjoined fifty prayers on
them". Moses said "Go back to
your Lord (and appeal for
reduction) for your followers
will not be able to bear it".
( Sahih al-Bukhari , Vol. 1, p.
213).

Allah enjoined fifty prayers on muslims, which Moses advised Muhammad's followers would not be able to bear and that led to the eventual reduction to five times. Allah continued with his inconsistency, even in heaven as he did in the quran, cancelling already revealed revelations and replacing them with what he called better ones (Quran 2:106). One would expect him to know better than Moses who advised fifty prayers was not practicable, which allah admitted. Does allah know all things?

Obiekmos:
Islamic scholars claim that we have lost the original copy of the Scripture/Bible that Mohammed recommended to muslims, but they fail to provide them. This makes us to question the capability of their Allah in preserving his words. But for us Christian (people of the Book), heaven and earth may pass away but Jehovah's word will surely abide forever. According to scholars, presently, Bible has more manuscript, historical and archaological evidences than any other ancient book...http://www.answeringislam.org http://www.reasonablefaith.org

Good talk.

Allah/Muhammad recommended the bible to muslims, yet they say it was corrupted. How could they make the corrupted bible a book of reference? Many things are seriously wrong with the quran and its author. If the quran is wrong, what is the fate of billions of muslims, dead and living?

PastorKun:
I think the first thing muslims need to do is to determine if their prophet is truly credible.

Yes, and even the credibility of the sender of the 'prophet' too.

I won't be surprised if the muslims have nothing to say. In difficult cases like this, they say they are ignoring the post.

The following quranic verses seem to suggest there is a meeting point between Christianity and Islam:

If thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that
which We reveal unto thee, then question (ask) those who
read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily
the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee(Quran 10:94).

And who believe in that which is
revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was
revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter (Quran 2:4)

Say (O Muslims): We believe in that
which is revealed unto us and that which was
revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac,
and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses
and Jesus received, and that which the prophets
received from their Lord. We make no distinction
between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered (Quran 2:136).

How come they unto thee for
judgment when they have the Torah, wherein Allah
hath delivered judgment (for them)? Yet even
after that they turn away. Such (folk) are not believers (Quran 5:43).

And We caused Jesus, son of
Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming
that which was (revealed) before him, and We
bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance
and a light, confirming that which was (revealed)
before it in the Torah - a guidance and an
admonition unto those who ward off (evil) Quran 5:46.

No doubt, if the Jews' and Christians' Scriptures have been corrupted as alleged, no one would expect allah to have made those statements. Or was it after the statements allah discovered that they were corrupted? Muslims have some explanations to make to clear the quran of inconsistencies in this area.

dearpreye:
I just read on social how some irate Muslim thugs set ablaze a Church in Kano. One of the daughters of the resident pastor was killed as a result of that barbaric attack.

Christians are being slaughtered all over the world for being Christians. That's their crime!

Yes, the Bible condemns murder of any sort.

Can a Christian, if they have the means, attack an kill their assailants? Will that be adjudged sin in the sight of God?

Yes, I believe you can defend yourself.

https://www.nairaland.com/2086476/solution-islamic-terrorism

truthman2012:
Answer these questions and see where it will land you:

Did allah not say there is no COMPULSION in religion? See Quran 2:256.

Did allah not say people should be fought till they accept islam? See Quran 8:39.

For your further reading as I promised more coming:

Sahih Muslim (1:33) The
Messenger of Allah said: "I have
been commanded to fight against
people till they testify that there
is no god but Allah, that
Muhammad is the messenger of
Allah, and they establish prayer
and pay zakat." This is a command from allah who said there is no COMPULSION. This is in compliance with Quran 8:39. What do have to say to this? Who have a big problem between me and you now?

''Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When
you meet your enemies who are
polytheists (which includes
Christians) , invite them to three
courses of action. If they respond
to any one of these, you also
accept it and withhold yourself
from doing them any harm.
Invite them to (accept) Islam; if
they respond to you, accept it
from them and desist from
fighting against them....'' What do say against allah earlier statement that there is no COMPULSION in religion? If can't still understand you have a BIG problem.

Now, coming to the issue of the bible versions you raised, each version says the same thing with others in different constructions. This is the same with different translations of the quran. While the translation of the quran is from the arabic text, the versions of the bible is from the Hebrew text. I wonder why that should pose any problem to you.

Reading the Bible Book of Revelations
you will understand that Jesus endorsed the activities of the church. He wrote to them, commending some and correcting some (Revelations 2).

No more words coming from islam defenders.

Oro pesije o, oro di hun!

Rilwayne

Lets check ezekiel 18:

Eze 18:2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: "'The fathers eat sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge'? <<< The fact that Yahweh was asking the question of children inheriting the father's sin as above shows that He himself is not even aware of such thing. lets continue.
Eze 18:3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. <<< Now, I ask myself a question here that is yahweh dead? why is truthman quoting this proverb again when yahweh said as long as he live no one will quote such proverb again. But as we can see today, christians are quoting as truthman did up here. Is this another lie or inconsistency?
Eze 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die. <<< According to the underlined, how could Jesus have died for our sin when actually the soul that sin is the one that will die?

Away from here lets go to verse 14 an evil father is been talked about in the preceeding verse, the father he has done all detestable thing in the eyes of the Lord, the father has been condemned to die already, so what will be the faith of his son.

Eze 18:14...17 "But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things:...... He withholds his hand from sin and takes no usury or excessive interest. He keeps my laws and follows my decrees. He will not die for his father's sin; he will surely live. << Truthman, please what does it mean to die and to live in the bible?

Eze 18:19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. <<Yet you truthman and other deluded xtian said I shared in the guilt of Adam? Since I have done what is right I just, since I didnt follow the footstep of my father by disobeying God, since i have been keeping his laws and decree

My reason for not wanting to answer your questions is already manifesting. With islamic spirit still dominating your life, your cannot understand Godly divine things. Every man became a sinner because of his source, Adam and Even who sinned. Whether or not God visits the sin of the father on his children does not remove the fact that everybody carries the body of sin and dominated by it following the fall. A white man begets a white child because he is white. It is his nature. Adam with sinful nature following the fall could not give birth to sinless children. The nature of sin was already in the children. Cain killed Abel. Who taught him how to kill? The sinful nature in him. A suckling child bites his mother's breas.t and laughs, laughing means he knows he has done wrong, who taught him? The sinful nature. It is not that you are guilty of the sin of Adam and Eve eating the fruit, the point is man's nature that has become that of sin as a result of his father's disobedience. In fact, I don't know how to help you better.

Truthman2012 please point out the difference between the above verse and the verse of the Quran that says:
Quran 17v15: Whosoever choose to follow the right path, follows it but for his own good, and whoever goes astray, did to his own hurt, and no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another’s burden.

The same quran says people will bear the burden other people:

Let them bear, in the Day of Judgement, their oown burden in full and with something of the burden of those without knowledge, whom they misled....Quran 16:25.

So sire.

if the original sin is inherited and children are born into sin,Jesus would not have awarded “innocence” and “pure” state to them, neither would he have said in,

Mathew 18verse3: and said, verily I say unto you, except ye be converted and become as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdon of heaven. would he?

What was the context in which the statement was made? Verse 1 of the Chapter 18 says "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus saying who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? The disciple must have been thinking about who Jesus will favour most in heaven and Jesus knowing what was in their heart said "except ye be converted as become as little children, ye shall not enter the kingdom of heaven" This is teaching them humility and not rivalry among themselves. Be as simple as children.

If children are sinless, why do they suffer the same fate as adult? They get sick, they suffer pains and in fact many die as children.

Furthermore, I asked Ifeann a question on the second page where I said, the punishment God allegedly punish eve with is to suffer pain in delivering offspring, And I asked since jesus death is to cancel the adamic sin, why are women still delivering offspring in pain?

No, your reasoning is wrong. You should have asked again, why do Christians die afterall they have no adamic sin. So, what makes muslim women deliver in pains as they are not affected by Adam's sin?

If you believe the 10 commandments is to curb the sinfullness nature of man, then of what purpose is the alleged dying for sin of mankind? Did Jesus ever condemn these 10commandments? are xtians still oberserving it or not?

You do not understand the concept of Jesus dying for the sin of mankind. Jesus died for the sin already committed before knowing Him. He did not die for the sin you deliberately commit after knowing Him (Heb 10:26-27). The fact that Jesus died for sin does not mean people should keep sinning: fornication/adultery, stealing etc. Besides, that Jesus died for sin grant the believers access to forgiveness of sin not deliberately committed. Before Jesus, anyone who committed sin is severely punished by God's command but now, there is room for forgiveness.It is unlike Sharia law where their is no room for forgiveness.

So now Jesus is not GOD again?

Jesus was Son in the Flesh and God in the Spirit.

You are acting like a novice sir.

We have argued trinity on this board over and over.
First, John 5:7 is manipulation and a deceit by trinitirians, even other trinitarians like you do not use it in arguement cus they are all aware that its a fraud.
Do you want to argue Genesis 1:26?

The fact that you admit that the father was in heaven protecting it while jesus was on earth shows that they are distinct. don't you think

I'm not bound by your arguments. You are free to believe what you want

Matthew 9:12-13 He says: “Go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” .

In order to be saved,Jesus insists we have to repent of sin. Therefore, his ministry is devoted to calling sinners to repentance.

Now, from the underlined, who are the righteous? are they not also affected with the adamic sin since you claimed that we have all shared in it? why is jesus calling the sinners alone?

Jesus didn't die for the righteous. There were righteous people who died before he came and they could make heaven. Abraham, Moses and other prophet were righteous, not sinless. All of them had their faults but the difference is that they had right standing with God and He overlooked their sins. People do not have the same relationship with God, some are closer to Him than others.

I may not respond to your post on this again because it will lead to an endless argument.

Empiree:
No, He doesn't. It is you that have a big problem

Albaqir just explained 2nd paragraph to you but you still repeated nonsense here. It is very easy, pal. Just a click away to find out what "fitna" means. It always means oppression, turmoil, etc. Fitna doesnt mean shirk

Which Jesus you want me to follow?. The last time I checked you have more than one Jesus in your Bibles. You have over 40 different versions of the Bible yet none of it signed off by Jesus. Well, I already belive in Jesus the son of Mary(Allah's blessings be upon him and his mother).

Answer these questions and see where it will land you:

Did allah not say there is no COMPULSION in religion? See Quran 2:256.

Did allah not say people should be fought till they accept islam? See Quran 8:39.

For your further reading as I promised more coming:

Sahih Muslim (1:33) The
Messenger of Allah said: "I have
been commanded to fight against
people till they testify that there
is no god but Allah, that
Muhammad is the messenger of
Allah, and they establish prayer
and pay zakat." This is a command from allah who said there is no COMPULSION. This is in compliance with Quran 8:39. What do have to say to this? Who have a big problem between me and you now?

''Sahih Muslim (19:4294) - "When
you meet your enemies who are
polytheists (which includes
Christians) , invite them to three
courses of action. If they respond
to any one of these, you also
accept it and withhold yourself
from doing them any harm.
Invite them to (accept) Islam; if
they respond to you, accept it
from them and desist from
fighting against them....'' What do say against allah earlier statement that there is no COMPULSION in religion? If can't still understand you have a BIG problem.

Now, coming to the issue of the bible versions you raised, each version says the same thing with others in different constructions. This is the same with different translations of the quran. While the translation of the quran is from the arabic text, the versions of the bible is from the Hebrew text. I wonder why that should pose any problem to you.

Reading the Bible Book of Revelations
you will understand that Jesus endorsed the activities of the church. He wrote to them, commending some and correcting some (Revelations 2).

Empiree:
Listen man, later explanation provided by albaqir was actually the standard tafsir of the verse in question.

Now, we know you guys can never be satisfied with anything islamic. Here is the thing though, it doesnt matter whether you are comfortable with his explanation or not, whether you understand it or not. What matters is he gave you some detail tafsir of the verse. That's just it. Anything else you said was irrelevant.

The bone of contention is whether or not allah is stable. In many verses of the quran, he keeps changing his words, why?

He said there is no COMPULSION in RELIGION and yet order the muslims to fight people till there is no other religion than islam. How difficult is that for you muslim guys to understand? Na wa o!

There are many other verses where allah would say something now and change his mind later. Is that a good attribute of the true God? Repent and follow Jesus who would not deceive you by changing his word to suit any situation. Thank you.

AlBaqir:
Really I know by the time they reach the zenith of their ignorance, and thresold of their antagonism, when objective minds would have seen their lapses; then I will rather continue exposing them of their feeble uderstanding

So you are truly escaping? I know next time you will be careful trying to debunk my posts. Bye.

Rilwayne

I didn't see the need to refute the Op because most of your assertions were based on the carnal knowledge of the bible. And again, spiritual explanations might not be meaningful to you and the people in your condition.

The very fact that sin remains and flourishes in the world, 2000+ years after Christ supposedly "conquered" sin on the cross, is more than enough for the non-deluded to see that the judicial execution of that one man is perfectly meaningless in terms of redeeming the spiritual state of mankind as a race.

Sin will always remain in the world. Jesus died for the sin of only those who accept Him as their personal Lord and Saviour. Not until you confess Him as your Lord and Saviour, His death has nothing to do with you.

1. Why can God be unjust when he had sent many prophets to preach repentance? How can countless men inherit a sin they have never committed? And if sin means the breaking of God’s law (according to dictionary), which of the children of Adam had ever known anything called forbidden tree?.

It is certain that children do inherit the sin of their fathers. Adam and Eve had not born children before their fall. Had they born one in their perfect state, the child would have been sinless. But they had all their children after the fall. Adam and Eve were naked before the fall but they never saw it so and as soon as they ate the forbidden fruit, they discovered themselves as naked. It doesn't mean they were not seeing with their eyes before they ate the fruit but after eating, their nature got changed from the former condition, they could then see what was not intended for them to see. Their nature changed from sinlessness to sinfulness. So, with the new sinful nature, they had all their children, thereby passing sinfulness to them because they came from their system. Then the children passed the same sinful nature to their children up to you and me. Therefore, the sinful nature became heredictory. With this, sin had dominion over man as there is no way a human can live without committing sins following the fall because his nature is a sinful nature. It takes Christ intervention to deal with the sinful nature. When you receive Christ, the sinful nature disappears and now a new creature, old things (sinful nature) have passed away (2 Cor. 517).

2. If God’s anger was kindled against Adam and Eve for their disobedience, could the anger persisted on to the generation of Adam and Eve. Remember this God’s action
psalm 30v5: for his anger endureth but a moment and his favour is for a life time.

Yes, His anger persists. It was because of man's sinfulness God introduced the Law, the 10 Commandments. Anyone who broke them was severely punished. Even in Sharia Law for muslims, people are punished for breaking them.

3. From whence, then, could arise the solitary and strange conceit that the Almighty, who had millions of worlds equally dependent on his protection, should quit the care of all the rest, and come to die in our world, because, they say, one man and one woman had eaten an apple?

Jesus didn't come to this world as the Almighty, He came as the Son and was frequently referring to His Father. The bible makes it clear that there are three that bear records in heaven: the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit and that is why the use of 'Us' when God decided to create man (Gen. 1:26, I John 5:7). While the Son was here on earth, the Father was there in heaven to protect.

4. "Christian guy rapes innocent Muslim girl to death. Muslim girl goes to hell because she didn't believe Jesus is the son of God. Christian guy ask for forgiveness. Makes heaven." whats your take on this incident?

Any guy who rapes a muslims girl at all, talkless of to death is not a Christian. Any sin committed by a Christian knowingly after being born again has no forgiveness (Heb 10.26-27). Not only a muslim girl goes to hell for not believing Jesus is the Son of God, anybody who doesn't believe will go to hell.

5. Simply put, it is either men have not inherited any sins or that bible has told lie when it says as seen above that John, Daniel, Zechariah and his wife, Samuel, Joseph were all righteous men! Or are a sinners called righteous one in the bible?

Righteousness is not sinlessness. Righteousness is right standing before God without any sense of condemnation. That is, not knowingly committing sin. If they do by mistake, the ask for forgiveness.

Rilwayne001:


Do you bother to answer those questions in the OP since your master was unable to attempt any?

Why are you even derailing the thread? I am sure that your son can't be as ***** as you've been displaying here.

#AgbaJatiJati

Which thread? The thread you are derailing yourself by resorting to science in the bible. Smh!

Rilwayne001:
Oh my God!

You will always shoot yourself in the leg, and at the end of the day, its either you run away with tails between your legs or you copy and paste your nonsense as usual.

I have determine not to dignify senseless posts made by you and your cohorts, but not always, hence, you and your slow friends think you make an iota of sense when actually you made non.



[b] And now out of ignorance you ask for scientific evidence in place of a spiritiual matter, but when our atheist friends ask for scientific evidence that God exist, you will resort and call the carnal minded belligeret peeps.

Now malviguy212, lets check very few of the scientific blunder of the bible. Does science prove the following fairytales and blunder of the bible?

1) According to revelation 9vs1 " The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss."
how is that possible when stars are bigger than earth? Does star have emotion to have been given a key? **as you foolishly ask up there

2) Judges 9:7-16 , trees voted for their own King. Judges 9:8 "The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them."

3) Leviticus 11:6 "The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you." Rabbits, are lagomorphs, not ruminants; they do not chew the cud. Prove me wrong

4) According to (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6, Job 38:4, Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Jeremiah 16:19, Daniel 4:11, Psalm 93:1-3, Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5, 1 Chronicles 16:30, Matthew 4:8 ) The earth is flat, has four corners, is standing on pillars that prevent it from shaking, and is immovable. Can you prove this scientifically?

The above are just 4 of thousands of blunder in the bible. [/b]



Who control the world?


www.nairaland.com/attachments/1908072_by6vmiecqaalzrn_jpeg_jpeg9f0e32cb21036cad88da896a775014f3

You lack good understanding of the bible. The Book of Revelation is a vision. In vision, a lot of figurative expressions are made. You will see many of such in the Book of Daniel.

According to revelation 9vs1 " The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss."

The star here represents a spirit-being who was given the key to open the bottomless pit.

Judges 9:7-16 , trees voted for their own King. Judges 9:8 "The trees went forth on a time to anoint a king over them."

This is a metaphor. When it said that ''the pot calling kettle black'', does a pot have mouth to speak? Was the speaker in Judges insane not to know a tree is not human to anoint a king? That should show you it was not a physical tree.

The onus of proof is on you here that a rabbit doesn't chew the cud:

Leviticus 11:6 "The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you." Rabbits, are lagomorphs, not ruminants; they do not chew the cud. Prove me wrong

According to (1 Samuel 2:8, Job 9:6, Job 38:4, Isaiah 11:12, Revelation 7:1, Job 38:13, Jeremiah 16:19, Daniel 4:11, Psalm 93:1-3, Psalm 96:10, Psalm 104:5, 1 Chronicles 16:30, Matthew 4:8 ) The earth is flat, has four corners, is standing on pillars that prevent it from shaking, and is immovable. Can you prove this scientifically?

Leave this to the scientists as you are not an authority in science to have the knowledge to disprove. There are people who still believe the earth is flat. You can believe what you want.

See: http://www.iflscience.com/space/there-are-still-people-who-believe-earth-flat-usa

Rilwayne001:
^^

AlBaqir should please ignore these guys.
Any right thinking reader of your reply will see how slow they are..Smh

Each time you muslims get to where you don't know what to say next, you escape by ignoring. How long will you continue to deceive yourselves?

malvisguy212:
God bless you. This muslims can lie very much, plants have the FREEWILL to chose? What happened if they(plants) do not submits to Allah WILL? Killed them? Do plants possessed emotions? The guy is a very good liar.

Thank you my brother. Allah permitting muslims to lie where needed knows what he was doing. It takes lying to defend lies.

My son and his wife came home and he said he used to follow threads on religion section of nairaland. He also talked about your posts, mine and those of the muslims. He said he visits the section everyday. Why am I saying this? My joy is that he cannot be deceived by islamic lies. He said from what he has been reading, muslims would have seen the truth but unfortunately, the spirit of islam has blindfolded them.

Honestly, I used to wonder myself why it is so difficult for muslims to see the falsehood of islam. May God in His mercies liberate them.

AlBaqir:
It is very unfortunate that you failed woefully to grab simple common sense explanation of this beautiful verse. This is what happens when one reads to criticise and never to understands.

First, I never ever interpret "Religion" to means "Death or other laws of nature" as those occurences under the control of Allah that man MUST submits willingly or unwillingly. My simple interpretations is in the context of "...and to Him submits whatever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly".

Now, come to think of it bro, Angels, sun, moon, stars are some of the denizens of the heavens which this beautiful verse says "they submit willingly or unwillingly". Are we talking of them accepting Islam here?

On earth, we have animals, trees, seas and oceans, rivers and streams of various kinds, wind (cool breeze and verocious thunardoes), ALL these submit willingly or unwillingly to the command of Allah. Are we talking of them here accepting Islam?

This phrase "...and to Him submits whatever is in the heavens and the earth willingly or unwillingly" is too comprehensive for you to antagonistically used it to mean God coerce unbelievers as against another verse which says there is no force in Religion.

Second, the ending clause of the verse "... and to Him they will return" collapse your false argument of coercion. This ending note suggest freedom of choice whether you accept faith or reject it when you knew that All things submits to God, unto Him is your return.

Third, as per Abdullah Yusuf Ali, he was one the many translators and interpreters. His thoughts are not bind on any muslim. However the word use in the verse is "Aslam" meaning "to submit" which is also the same word as "Islam". This is the reason why some scholars reasons that Everything created profess "Islam" by virtue of the fact that they "submit" willingly or unwillingly. I have highlighted this already.

Your explanation or interpretation remains unacceptable. Let your conscience be your judge.

''Are they seeking a RELIGION other than Allah's'' ? This is referring to humans not stars, animal or sea as these can not SEEK any religion.

Let me ask you: Do plants, animal, sea, star etc accept islam? Do they posses the WILL to accept or reject islam? Do they have any choice to have accepted islam unwillingly? I tell you the truth, your interpretation is an error.

Your attempt to defend allah as not forcing people fails woefully. As I said earlier, the evidences against allah being unstable are overwhelming. Apart from Quran 3:83 in contention, look at these evidences of allah forcing people to islam after he had said there is no compulsion in religion. I promise you I will be bringing them as we proceed:

Qur'an (8:39) - “And fight them
until there is no more Fitnah
(disbelief and polytheism: i.e.
worshipping others besides Allah)
and the religion (worship) will all
be for Allah Alone [in the whole
of the world ]. But if they cease
(worshipping others besides
Allah), then certainly, Allah is
All-Seer of what they do.”

[ Shakir 8:39 ] And fight with them
until there is no more persecution
and religion should be only for
Allah; but if they desist, then
surely Allah sees what they do.


Fight the people till there is no other religion apart from islam after saying there is no compulsion in religion. How reliable is allah's word? This is not the character of the true God. The Devil is a liar.

Next!

AlBaqir:
So "insult", "indecency", among other vices are preferred to you than common sense and decency?
Are you one of those bad eggs' pretenders that claimed to follow Jesus' teachings of peace?



Here's the proper translation of the verse:
"Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek; and to Him submits whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned"

The simple common sense explanation of the verse goes thus:
"Is it then other than Allah's religion that they seek?
This is a question to those who reject God. And the best answer to them is giving:"...and to Him shall they be returned"

However, His absolute Majesty is giving to them (the unbelievers) to reflect on:
"..., and to Him submits whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly,... "

Willingly or unwillingly every soul will submit to:
* Death, or End of existence

In fact some simple common sense examples are
The Law of Nature designed by Allah which everything MUST submit:
# Eating to ward off hunger
# Drinking to quench thirst
# Sleeping
# Answering the call of nature
# Gravitational force etc etc
All of these has nothing to do with "faith" before you willingly or unwillingly submit to the command of the Almighty

As much as all these are total submission to the will of Allah, In another verse of the Qur'an, the unbelievers are ask: "...who created the heaven and the earth?...who sent forth water from heavens?... Then, Qur'an says they (these unbelievers) will answers "It is Allah!" Then, Qur'an challenges "then, why don't you submit?
That is where intellectual reasoning comes out.

This "submission" then, lead us to the second verse below:



"Let there be no compulsion in Religion, for truth stand out clear from Error..."

When it comes to faith-based issues, it is something that has to do with intellect; and anything of intellect, there is choice in it.

Faith in God and all other characteristics of faith is simply bourne out of choice. There is conviction before faith can be established in the heart.
_______________________

Qur'an challenges:
"Do they not reflect on this Qur'an, or are there locks in their hearts?!"

Your interpretation is made out of your own personal assumption to suit your purpose. In fact this your translation does not change the meaning.

''Is it then other than Allah's RELIGION that they seek; and to Him submits whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned" This translation is by Shakir.

Look at translation by Yusuf Ali:

Yusufali 3:83 ] Do they seek for
other than THE RELIGION of Allah?-
while all creatures in the heavens
and on earth have, willing or
unwilling, BOWED to His Will
(Accepted Islam), and to Him shall
they all be brought back. Note whe words ''Accepted Islam''.

''....and to Him submits whatsoever is in the heaven and the EARTH WILLINGLY or UNWILLINGLY'' This verse is talking about RELIGION of ISLAM not submission at DEATH as you wrongly want me to take. There is noway you can twist the meaning of the RELIGION to mean death in that verse. How do you interprete 'Allah's religion' on EARTH to mean submission at DEATH? Even Yusuf Ali could not do so. Take your lying easy na! UNWILLINGLY means by COMPULSION. It is a surprise that despite your claimed sense you still could not give proper meaning to a simple English statement or you are trying so hard to deceive yourself and people in your condition.

I know islam permits lying where it is needed to do so but your lie here is too blatant. Take it easy o!

The truth remains allah once say there is no COMPULSION in his religion but as usual, he changed his statement by saying people submit to his religion by COMPULSION. What an unstable allah.

AlBaqir:
Really there is a huge difference between common sense, decency; and the reverse of those two words.

At least insult is better than beheading. Thank you.

But come to look at it again, is it untrue that allah is unstable? I have ample evidences to prove my point including the verses I quoted above. Check out this again, I will keep bringing them as we proceed:

Quran 3:83
Are they seeking a religion other than Allah's, when every soul in the
heavens and the earth has
submitted to Him, WILLINGLY OR
BY COMPULSION?
This is against the earlier verse
(2:256) that says
there is no COMPULSION in religion. Allah, as usual nullifies his own word, making him unstable. What kind of spirit could he be? Reliable?

Then, is it true that every soul on earth has submitted to Allah? Why are there other religions? Why would the true God be saying something man can fault?

AlBaqir:
What does that underlined meant in your language?

Here's another verse:
"On the Day when their faces will be turned over in the Fire, they will say: "Oh, would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger."

And they will say: "Our Lord! Verily, we obeyed our chiefs and our great ones, and they misled us from the (Right) Way.

Our Lord! give them double torment and curse them with a mighty curse!"
{Al-Ahzab: 66 - 68}

By doubling their punishment meant apart from their own sins, they will be punish for misleading others; and of course those foolish fellows who can't use their own discretion will also be punished.

As I earlier said and I repeat, quran is not the word of the true God. There is no prophet like Muhammad in everything unGodly. Don't trust it please.

Your quranic quotes have been nullified by the verse I cited above. Allah's word is unstable.

malvisguy212:
why will satan waited for 600 years before sending muhammed to contradicts the word of God? Surly if muhammed should preach his jihadist doctrine during the early church. Peter,Timothy,Paul and the rest of the witnesses would have rebuke him.God will never make a wrong timing in sending muhammed after 600 years to contradicts the bible because thousands of soul would have died before the coming of muhammed. Allau akba indeed

My brother, the Devil is a very wise spirit and the bible recognizes it as such. The greatest success he has made in this world is islam with a population of about 1.8 billion.

As you rightly said, his waiting for 600+ years after Jesus before he introduced islam was on purpose. He waited for many generations at which time people had lost record of what happened in their own family talkless of other peoples family. He then lied to Muhammad that Abraham accompanied Ishmael and his mother, Hagai to Mecca where they built Kaaba. He never said what led him to drive Ishmael and from where.This is to create a belief that Kaaba was originally built by a prophet of God. Contrary to this, the bible proves that neither Abraham nor Ishmael ever lived in Mecca.

Another reason he waited for that long is to strategize. Firstly, he ordained war for muslims so that they could force people to submit, knowing fully well that people are afraid of death and knowing that Christians would not fight back, yet they say there is no compulsion in religion and that islam is a religion of peace. Saying something and doing another. This is not the character of the true God.

Secondly, he permitted muslims to marry many wives knowing that Christians marry only one. This is to make his faithfuls outnumber the Christians so that they can dominate the world and this is seriously working as planned. Not only that, he permits them to change old wife for a young one, so that after the old cannot bear children again, the young one will take over. Tell me, when did God start giving such permissions?

Thirdly, he makes islam attractive to human nature, man's carnal nature after fall by Adam and Eve. Muslims could sleep with any woman including slaves. He ordained that they could commit adultery. Infact quran 4:24 states they could pay a woman to sleep with her, known as temporary wife. On top of it, he promised them many virgins in heaven with the men having eternal ere.ction, as if all they do in heaven is sex. When did God start permitting such disgusting things.

He tried to introduce another abomination in the sight of God by enjoining Muhammad to marry the wife of his adopted son and also enjoins others to follow. Why should God direct his prophet to marry the wife of another man? Where did that happen before in God's dealing with man? I find it strange why sane muslims, even the highly educated ones could not detect allah and his manipulations. It is a pity. Since allah said it was no more wrong for men to marry their adopted sons' wives, why did he cancel adoption subsequently? Didn't he know he would cancel it before he permitted his faithfuls to copy Muhammad? I believe allah could not see the future.

He (allah) had to discredit the bible in order to introduce his own, quran. He claimed men have tampered with the Jews' and Christians' Scripture. The same allah said nothing can change his word (Quran 6:115). If he was the speaker in the earlier Scriptures, what justification does he have to say men changed his word after he had said nothing can change it? The quran is full of spiritual deception.

Bro., there are many more to talk about islam of Muhammad's allah later if the Lord tarries. I said allah of Muhammad because the Arabs call anything they worship allah, not necessarilly the God of heaven. It is clear that Muhammad's allah does not possess the holy character of the Father of Jesus, neither does he possess his power as his greatest prophet could not perform miracles.

malvisguy212:
^^^^
Allah say a word and later debunked himself,He is not steady in his word.

Allau Akbar indeed!