₦airaland Forum

Gamine,

What questions have u asked that have been evaded?
Please post them here again.

Also, there is an attitude that exists in ur writings that is discouraging reasonable contributions.
U might want to look into that.

and still, we are yet to see a complete presentation on ur belief about the whole issue.

TV01:
Hi All,

Interesting thread. Can anyone join?

TV

Ofcourse u can join. It's not meant for Gamine,myself,zikky and dgreatrock alone.
This is what Gamine said at the beginning:

We need to have this discussion, and if you have anything to contribute lets do.
i think it is important for everyone to understand redemption and propitiation

Would be nice to hear from u.

Gamine:
Dude,
you have to be clear.

When you bunch everything together, i cant see.
cos one, my eyesight aint the best
two, i dont have so much time on my hands

thats all i am asking.

Put bible verses in quotes, e.t.c

ok. thanks.

This is a first.

Well, I'll try and make it easier for u

Gamine:
@Ttalks,

I see you are constantly derailing the topic,
This is why one cant have a honest discussion on Nairaland, *sigh*

How on earth am i derailing the topic?

Everything i'm saying here is in relation to the topic.
Why don't u show with scripture that what i'm saying is wrong than to say stuff that doesn't say anything but ur opinion?

Its a pity i cant read the plenty stories you post

Maybe that is why it's so easy for u to readily believe false theories, cos u're not ready to sit down and do deep and consice study.

Gamine,

Rom 8:1
(1)  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Those in Christ are not supposed to walk after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Committing adultery which is the example u gave at the beginning, is walking after the flesh. it is fulfilling the cravings of the flesh.

Being in Christ is expressed by the requirement  in the verse above; walking after the Spirit and not the flesh.
So, any point in time in the Spirit walk(Christian walk) that one decides to follow after the flesh, amends need to be made to place us back in our proper stand with Christ.


The verse above says we are not condemned; sinners are condemned.
So, the theory u tried to bring out from ur "All have sinned" premise that we will always be sinners is wrong.


And again, the theory u seem to be putting across suggests that all sins which are yet to be committed are forgiven. as i have said, they are not forgiven until they are repented of. the only sins forgiven at this point in time are the past sins; inherited through Adam.

Rom 3:25
(25)  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

There is nothing there indicating that future sins have been forgiven. That is why we have a duty to seek forgiveness of sins we commit as we forge ahead with life so as to get remission of those.
The grace is available through the sacrifice of Christ done in the past and this is what we tap into when we ask for forgiveness.
That is why we Christians(not non Christians) were told here:

1Jn 1:8-9
(  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The difference between Christ's sacrifice and that of the bulls and rams is that Christ's cleanses sin away completely while the animals' only cover them.
Christ's was once and for all, that of the animals was continuously done to cover sins.
Christ doesn't need to die again, the animals have to be killed every now and again.
Christ's provides grace which is enough to take care of sins yet to be committed; the animals' only provide a temporary cover of sins which would later need renewal.

Olaadegbu,

Your last post is tending towards making me declare the whole point I'm trying to make here. But I can't pour everything out on you just yet cos based on your posts, it's clear u do not get what i am saying and cannot accept what i am still yet to say. Understanding and accepting the points i'm trying to lay across is necessary for understanding what i am still yet to say.

But, anyway, i'll still try once more.

Here's a little summary of what i am trying to say:

Before God created man, he had a plan and purpose.
That plan and purpose were the driving force behind creating man and subjecting him to the way he has been and is.
Part of that plan brought about creating an evil being(the devil) for the purpose of deceiving and blindening man and preventing him from coming to the knowledge of the truth at the improper time.
Before creation,he also had concluded the way by which some chosen creation would see the light and be saved(Christ's sacrifice).
Nothing took God by surprise(not even Adam's fall) because all was just according to his purpose for creation.

These chosen creation for salvation are all those who come to the knowledge of the true gospel of Christ and are saved by it. And they were chosen for a purpose and that purpose was for the judgement and justification of the rest of the world.
The unchosen or the rest of the world are in the state they are in because they have been subjected that way by God.

Now, God's plan is to use these chosen saved ones to  bring about judgement and justification of the rest through Christ at the end of ages;

Rom 8:19-23
(19)  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(21)  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
(22)  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(23)  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Verse 20 shows that God is the one that subjected humanity into what it is(he is responsible;there is no denying that fact).
Verse 21 shows the whole goal of 20; that humanity itself shall be delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God

verse 21 in a little way tells us what God's intention is at the end of the day; he is going to save all of humanity. Yes, all.

Now i know all your senses would be screaming "Nooo" at that last sentence because it completely denies all that u've ever known;not the word of God.
And i still think u are not ready yet to accept that fact based on what u've been posting. Many aren't.
But it takes understanding of all I've been saying to get this last point.

1Co 6:2
(2)  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

This is why we are chosen; because we are going to judge the world. How do u think this applies?

How also do u think this verse applies:

1Co 3:15
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


It's too early or too soon for me to be making these statements,but they are facts about this life, and cannot be understood unless very proper study is carried out on the word of God.

Conclusion: God subjected humanity to the way it is. God will still free this humanity from that bondage which it was subjected too.
Note: Humanity refers to all mankind; and currently that refers to the saved and unsaved.

Gamine:
I have been very busy and could only manage to drop a few lines
especially that i was posting from my phone
anyway,

Lets take it from the top,

Romans 3:23

All have sinned. .
We will always fall short of JESUS, who is the Glory, maybe
except some people like ttalks who can never 'sin' because they Love God.

I hope this is understood atleast

Gamine,

I don't think u are interpreting the "All have sinned" part properly.
That is in reference to the state of man before the acceptance of Christ, and not after; which ur post above seems to be indicating.

Now more to my input:

Rom 8:11-13
(11) And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive by his Spirit who lives in you.
(12) Consequently, brothers, we have an obligation-but it is not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
(13) For if you live according to the flesh, you are going to die, but if by the Spirit you continually put to death the activities of the body, you will live.

Do u see what is being communicated up there?
Living according to the flesh is committing sin and if u do so as a Christian u will "die" as said above.

And to explain "Loving God and sinning" based on ur clearly sarcastic comment about me ,

You cannot Love God and sin. Sin is an expression of dropping the love of God and then focusing on urself and what u want;neglecting what God says.
Sin is an expression of selfishness; being after what u want or ur own(without God's)way.
Sin is an expression of loving self above God.

So, in a Christian's life, sinning is an expression of temporal abandonment of the love of God replaced by a temporal love of self.
if it was possible to love God 100% of the time in a Christian's life, sin would never suffice.
we are human and based on our fleshy cloak of sin, we still cannot love God 100% of the time; hence our sinning and the need to always tap into the available grace provided by Christ's sacrifice.

Now let's read more of ur theory; don't get distracted by what we say/write.

OLAADEGBU:
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him." -- 2 Corinthians.11:3

When the serpent deceived Eve, he cast doubt on God's Word, causing her to mistrust God Himself (Genesis 3:1-5). God said, "You shall," but Eve chose to believe that God was deceitful. To partake of the fruit was an act of willful rebellion against the God who had not only given Adam and Eve life but had lavished His goodness upon them.

We must remember that Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44), and he usually uses enough of the truth to make the lie believable. Here Paul cautions believers to reject any message that differs from the true gospel as revealed in the Word of God. This is the true meaning of doctrines of devils from the abyss (pit of hell), that is, half lies and half truths. (Ephesians 4:18; Luke 4:1-13).

Olaadegbu,

Read what the word of God says and settle this issue once and for all.

John 15:16(KJV)
(16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


John 15:16(CEV)
(16) You did not choose me. I chose you and sent you out to produce fruit, the kind of fruit that will last. Then my Father will give you whatever you ask for in my name.

is it difficult to see? Is it so hard to see that you/me/any saved Christian did not choose Christ but that Christ chose us and that is why we are operating within his saving grace?

Mat 22:14(KJV)
(14) For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mat 22:14(BBE)
(14) For out of all to whom the good news has come, only a small number will get salvation.

Eph 1:4-5
(4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Rom 8:28-30(KJV)
(28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
(29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:28-30(CEV)
(28) We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him. They are the ones God has chosen for his purpose,
(29) and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children.
(30) God then accepted the people he had already decided to choose, and he has shared his glory with them.


is it so hard for you to see that those of us that are being saved or are yet to be saved have been chosen from the beginning;before the foundation of the world?
It is because we have been chosen that we are saved; that we accepted the gospel of Christ.
It is because the others were not chosen from the beginning that they continually and will always continue to reject the gospel of Christ. It isn't because they want to reject it or chose to reject it; they can't accept it because they were not chosen.

That is the ireffutable fact that is being communicated by the word of God; not my words.

OLAADEGBU:
If a man who is a just judge will not take the excuse that "God made me like this.  Sin is His fault!" then I see no reason why the Perfect righteous Judge will do any less.  If this won't work in a court, it certainly won't work on Judgment Day.  Even with an expert defense lawyer, it would take a pretty inept judge to fall for the old "God made me do it" defense.  We humans are responsible moral agents.  The "buck" stopped at Adam.  He tried to blame both God and Eve for his sin; Eve blamed the serpent while the serpent had no leg to stand on.  It is human nature to play the "blame game" but this will not work with God on the Judgment Day.

You can't use the way mankind handles its affairs to determine how God handles his. Remember, his ways are not our ways.
This is not an issue of playing any blame game but simply stating out facts to make one try to really understand what God is up to; what his plans and purpose are.
the facts from the bible say that God created the devil and the devil deceives mankind to sin and not follow God and that man without Christ cannot(not "will not" seek God or obey God.

Rom 3:9-12
(9)  What then? are we worse off than they? In no way: because we have before made it clear that Jews as well as Greeks are all under the power of sin;
(10)  As it is said in the holy Writings, There is not one who does righteousness;
(11)  Not one who has the knowledge of what is right, not one who is a searcher after God;
(12)  They have all gone out of the way, there is no profit in any of them; there is not one who does good, not so much as one:


The above shows that man without God is under the power/influence of sin.it means they are controlled by the power or influence of sin; meaning they have no choice in the matter. it's like being under the control of a spell.
that is the state of men without God; hence their lifestyle. thus they are not righteous,they cannot seek God,they cannot do good.

Notice the word I use; cannot, - meaning an impossibility.

Remember, it was God that subjected humanity that way from the beginning. He did this through the devil which he created for that purpose.

And how come men are under the power of sin?

2Co 4:3-4
(3)  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(4)  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Verse 4 of the above shows that man rejects the gospel of Christ because it is hidden from them cos the devil has blinded them; not because they chose to reject it.
the concluding parts of verse 4 clearly shows that if not for the blindening, they would understand the gospel and wholeheartedly accept it.

so, it isn't the doing of mankind that some people do not accept the gospel of christ; it is the doing of the devil who is merely accomplishing the task which he was created for.

One of the major points put across by this whole scenario is kind of like: God showing man that our life and dependency is on God alone and not ourselves; and that we can do nothing without him.

John 15:5
(5)  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So, Olaadegbu, without Christ,you can do nothing; without Christ, you would not have come to the knowledge of his gospel so as to be saved.
if Christ did not empower u to come into the knowledge of his divine saving grace, u would have still been dead in your sins.
it had absolutely nothing to do with u, ur will or ur self.

Gamine:
True, and what is Christs Commandment? To love God and others, is it to NEVER 'sin'

If you truly in ur everyday actions "Love God and others" u will never sin.
this is because committing sin at any point in time negates that Love; sinning at any point in time is not loving God and others.

John 14:15
(15) If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The above means that if u do not keep God's commandments, u do not love him. And sin is a reflection of not keeping God's commandments.
Gamine, ur points are flawed in the light of the above.

Gamine:
Wrong.

You need to go understand the meaning of propitiation and redemption.

i just understood a couple of things myself, and im just trying to see what other 'christians'
really understand about Christs death.

Because from what i see you posting, its like he shouldnt have died afterall.
if you need a 'blank cheque', get a goat

It's pretty obvious that it is difficult for u to interprete analogies; hence ur statement above.

if u claim to have just understood some things about Christ's death, put it out here and let's see if it will stand the scrutiny of the scriptures.
Don't just make empty claims without substantiating them.

Now look at this:

Mat 5:21-22
(21) Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: - [This was the law under the old covenant.]
(22) But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. - [This is a law under the new covenant]

Look at what Christ is saying to his disciples(and we currently are his disciples/followers) as regards his law under the new covenant(verse 22). Calling a brother fool makes a christian in danger of hell fire.

now if one did not need to repent/ask forgiveness of sins committed such as the one highlighted above Christ would not have said that one could be in danger of hell fire. He wouldn't have bothered because,as u insinuate, his death has taken care of that, or would take care of it in this case.
i don't know if u get the point I'm making here.

As i said before, put out ur new found understanding for scrutiny; let's see if it would stand the test of the scriptures.

lightwalk:
[center] The ultimate question is "Did God create the devil?" [/center]

And the ultimate answer is: "Yes, God did create the devil. He was created as he is today. He is evil and has been so from the beginning."

lightwalk:
@Poster: I hope you're sane
You are only confirming that Lucifer is the devil, if you call him lightbearer that one na your own palava. Maybe they are decieving in you in one occult like that. He is just the devil because he disobeyed God and also caused man to disobey God too.

Any Sciptural proof to support ur theory that Lucifer is Satan?

OLAADEGBU:
I must give you some credit for your understanding of Salvation in another thread however, the little leaven that you believe that God makes us sinners or righteous against our own wills, that we can blame God for our fault is from the pit of hell.

"And Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." -- 1 Timothy 2:13-14

Why God created the serpent and allowed him to tempt Eve is a great mystery. However, those who would be quick to accuse God of wrongdoing would be wise to lay a hand on their mouth. We don't have to question His integrity because we know that all of His judgments are true and altogether righteous (Psalm 19:9).

God cannot be accused of wrongdoing. He isn't man.
God is the owner of mankind and however he decides to handle mankind is his right and decision.
The fact is that God subjected the creation(humans) to vanity not by its will but by God's and God will still deliver the creation from that bondage. - Romans 8:19-21.

God making humans to be righteous and leaving some to be sinners is all part of his grand master plan to deliver humanity from its bondage of sin. at the end, we will all give glory to God for his means(which many might not understand or accept now).

As I said before,all our wills(the saved and unsaved) are influenced wills. They are wills flowing in the pattern of God's masterplan and not free(uninfluenced) wills.

And I keep seeing your(and some other people's ) use of the "pit of Hell", . . . . . . .Where's that in the bible if you please?

OLAADEGBU:
My mistake. I mistook Truth11 for you. I was surprised when I saw Truth11's post which was biblically sound and wondered what had happened to him that he is now singing a new tune. Now I have discovered that he is not the same as ttalk so I apologise to Truth11 for mistaken him for you. I would have been surprised if you had been the one making such sound understanding of scriptures.

Very cheap shot. But, . . . . no harm done.

Zikkyy:
@Gamine
Let’s look at this issue another way.

Let assume i use to be a sinner, and i accepted Christ as my saviour and believe in all that he did for me. I am saved right? Now does that give me right to do things like going on a shooting spree (with my AK47) in a shopping mall? Am i still saved? I personally don’t think so. I believe then that i have an issue to settle with the Almighty for that act? So then what do i do? Probably means i have to go through the process of obtaining salvation all over again or be truly sorry for my act and ask for forgiveness. Except of course you believe that the Almighty was very pleased with my behaviour.

The thing is if i have truly accepted Christ and i am saved, i must live according to Christ’s commandment and not indulge myself in activities that go against it. But when i do, it means i have derailed and sever myself from Christ. What do i need to do to connect once more? I guess that is what ttalks is saying here (i might be wrong but that’s my understanding)

Pretty much.

Gamine:
This doesnt make sense.

The scripture says it does:


1Jn 1:8-10
( If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. - [The problem]
(9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. - [The solution]
(10) If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

No, thats why Jesus said The greatest commandment is love, if you love someone
why would you want to hurt them.

I don't see how this applies to what we're saying.

i dont buy this, <no pun intendended>

It's an analogy i used to try to explain things to u.

Again, i try to make some sense:

Christ's sacrifice is like provision of a load of food to quench hunger along with a blank cheque to get more food.
The hunger here represents the inherited sins which is taken care of by the sudden supply of a load of food.
the blank cheque is the necessary stuff to get more food when fresh hunger(fresh sins) strikes again.
the provision has been made to get what is required to quell the hunger, but if not used, the hunger remains.

as I said, it's an analogy; just like Christ used parables to communicate a message. it takes deep understanding to understand.

Gamine:
in other words, God keeps sending Jesus to die on the cross after every sin we commit and ask for forgiveness

No, the sacrifice has been made, but we need to put it to use when the situation arises.

you can have an endless supply of money(blank cheque) , but if u don't put it to use, u will not get anything.

Gamine:
Two fold.

I thought Jesus Died for ALL.

I didnt see any two-fold condition on the cross

"Two fold" is the break down of "all".

ie. Sins inherited and sins that are/yet to be.

They are not conditions but the facts about sin.


Look at it this way:

We could not attain any forgiveness provided by Christ's sacrifice until we acknowledged our sin and repented.
the same situation applies in any other sin we commit; repent and attain.

If it isn't necessary to constantly seek forgiveness and cleansing through the blood of christ, there is no point in the expectations of a Christian by the bible; we should just accept Christ and then live life as usual, committing sins at every whim and be sure that we are ok no matter what.

Christ's atonement is like a blank cheque that we can always make use of when the need arises.
possession of a blank cheque would not get u anything unless u put it to use when the need arisies.

Gamine:
no, im trying to understand something.

First you say Jesus atoned for our sins,
I need to know what and why we are asking for forgiveness,
trying to make right with God, when Jesus has done that for us.

Jesus atonement of our sins is twofold:

- First the sins inherited(from Adam) which keeping the law could not save us from
- Second, sins that could/would occur in our walk with Christ.


The first one is easy; all inherited sins are taken care of. Now, sins which still occur in our lives are not automatically forgiven unless one seeks forgiveness by repenting and forsaking the sins.

The forgiveness(of the daily occuring sins) is available, but not attainable unless there is repentance.

The scriptures show that we need constant forgiveness of our sins in our walk with Christ:

Mar 11:25-26
(25) And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
(26) But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

verse 26 above shows that we still need forgiveness even when we have a relationship with God.

As i said before, Christ is that atonement which is available for us to get forgiveness of sins which we commit[b] after[/b] we repent of them.

Gamine:
Which translation is that one, 'if we make it a habit'

That's the international standard version(ISV).

Gamine:
Contradictions

Contradictions? In what way Gamine?

You know it doesn't make sense to say something is wrong without showing why.

Also, it would be helpful to state ur understanding about the whole issue.

OLAADEGBU:
@ttalk,

I am surprised that you have tried to explained the essense of being born again to kunleoshob, the fact that you attend the same organisation and he has remained adamant and not changed. Is it the fact that you have found a common ground of not paying tithes and relegated the more important doctrines of the Bible to the background? or has your convictions changed that you now speak the same language?

I guess you meant to add a "not" in ur post above because if u didn't, then i haven't explained anything to Kunle.
he knows what it means to be born again; or at least, he knows what is required of a born again person.

This whole born again issue is quite vast so it takes constant study to really get the whole message about it.

The main thing to realize is simply the fact that being born again is not a destination but a journey. It requires constant devotion to the requirements of the new covenant to remain in the faith and to ultimately be saved at the end of the ages; when Christ comes again.

As it is, anyone who is born again isn't totally saved but is in the process of being completely saved. Hence the admonition to stand in the faith; so as to make your:

2Pe 1:10
(10) . . . . . . . . calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Easypizzy:
Defenders of Lucifer. What is the catch?

Stop being so predictable and go and read the bible very well.
Lucifer is not Satan.

Lucifer is a latin word that should not have been placed in the KJV bible since it(Old testament) was written in Hebrew.
It is not the name of anybody or personality.
It(son of the morning) was only used to refer the King of Babylon and never Satan.

Check other bible versions and u will not find the word Lucifer in that position but rather the true/proper word(s).

It was the king of Babylon who thought he could exalt his throne to the heavens; not Satan.

The point in all this is to let people know that satan was never a pure and beautiful angel from the beginning as is popularly taught, but an evil being from the very beginning.
He was created so by God for the purpose which he has been fulfilling and still is fulfilling.

John 8:44
(44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

KunleOshob:
@Atheists
As you claim not to bleieve in God or the bible, why should it bother you what the bible says or whether lucifer is satan or the devil? Anyway as you are obviously unaware the book of enoch is not cannonized as part of the bible and the only place in the bible that lucifer was mentioned is in the book of Isaiah which says thus: 1.Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

If the whole chapter is read well in proper context, it seems the name lucifer was being used to refer to the king of Babylon and not the devil or satan as you rightly claimed earlier. The book of enoch is another very interesting account,, i ofte wonder why it was not cannonized as some of the stories there shed more light on other biblical stories especially the book of genesis.

This is so right.

Majority, if not practically the whole of Christianity believe that Lucifer is the devil(satan); but that isn't true.
Realizing the facts about these issues would help in putting a whole lot of stuff about the Christian faith in proper order.
That's why "study" is very important.

These are some questions those who still feel the need to keep the law should ask themselves (I got them from a site I was going through):

Ask yourself: Are those "circumcised in heart" really breaking God's Commandment if they are not "circumcised in flesh?" I don't think so and neither do the Scriptures.

Are present day Gentile Believers really breaking God's command to sacrifice animals to atone for their sins if they rather spiritually accept the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself on the cross? I don't think so, and neither do the Scriptures.

Are Believers today breaking the tithing law if they rather "present themselves a living sacrifice," and always are willing to "lay in store as God has prospered them" (I Cor. 16:2) their money, time and talents to serve others? I don't think so, and neither do the Scriptures.

Are Believers today breaking the Sabbath day command if they do not set aside the seventh day to physically rest, but rather have set aside all days as a spiritual rest (Heb. 4)? I don't think so, and neither do the Scriptures

Nice and thoughtful questions.

hubreality:
Head up!

dgreatrock:
okay!!!!

i fink i have an idea of where you are going

Are u seriously finkin' in the direction I'm finkin'?  

hubreality:

It's against the rules of any forum(s) in the world including NairaLand which is also designed for a healthy and matured(disciplined) community like this.

So sue the forum to court and stop blowing hot air! Jeez!

hubreality:
They say, "charity begins at home" right? Freedom of speach or whatever ought to be constructive! We all cannot be hateful and insolent trying to address any matter.
Very unhealthy and unacceptable!!! Hope you know?

But some people can be hateful and insolent.
Hope you know that some people are not interested in anything constructive.
With that in mind, u do not need to be bothered about their displays.

hubreality:
Must you(anybody) make hateful and insolent comments to tell your unbelief to a matter which most times result to personal attacks and calling of names. This is generally a very unhealthy attitude common here which is also unacceptable in the ethics of any forum rules globally. Truly, I strongly hope this will be properly addressed by the admin, and the moderators of this segment.

And what is ur problem? Everybody is free to do or say what they want about any issue or topic.

You should learn to deal with it and stop getting hot around the ears.

ohisng:
Please can you nominate your top 100 Nigerian Pastors (sex irrespective). However, they must be people with INTEGRITY!!

And to what end is this meaningless effort?

For we who are in Christ, Christ represents our sure atonement for any sin we might commit.

It's like this: Christ is what we have to clean off/wipe off any sins we commit.
It's not an automatic cleaning/wiping off of sins when we commit them; but it happens when we seek his forgiveness and repent.

In the case of unbelievers, they do not have Christ to atone for their sins because they haven't accepted him/believed in him.

In our case we have him so we have that assurance(although it isn't an excuse to sin - Hebrews 10:26-27).

1Jn 1:8-9(KJV)
(8 )  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(9)  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 1:8-9(ISV)
(8 )  If we say that we do not have any sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
(9)  If we make it our habit to confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us those sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Gamine:
What are asking for forgiveness? is it for our sins?
i thought Jesus died for all our sins,

Yes Jesus died for our sins; sins we inherited from Adam, and sins we will commit.

But u can't get forgiven for a sin when you do not acknowledge that u sinned and also repent of it.

Just like as christ provided the forgiveness of sins unto those who believe/have faith in him; such is not available to those who do not believe/have faith in him.

Believing in christ also involves the acknowledgement of the fact that one is a sinner and also repenting of those sins. that is usually the initial step to salvation.

So, the same scenario presents itself in our Christian walk with Christ. We sin, we acknowledge that we have and ask for forgiveness as we repent. And we have an assurance of receiving forgiveness because we believe in Christ. belief in Christ is necessary for forgiveness.
so, what Christ stands for is the available propitiation for sins we commit; but forgiveness comes after acknowledgement and repentance of sins.

those who do not have Christ do not have this assurance that we have.

We cant make what?

We can't attain salvation; meaning facing the fiery judgement.

Php 2:12
(12)  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

The above shows that even though we have believed in Christ, we are to "work out our own salvation" and this is by living according to the provisions of Christ.


1Pe 1:5-9
(5)  Through faith you are being protected by God's power for a salvation that is ready to be revealed at the end of time.
(6)  In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you have to suffer various kinds of trials,
(7)  so that the genuineness of your faith, which is more valuable than gold that perishes when it is tested by fire, may result in praise, glory, and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
(  Though you have not seen him, you love him. And even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and rejoice with an indescribable and glorious joy,
(9)  because you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Our salvation which still refers to the term "being saved" is something yet to be revealed; it hasn't happened yet but we've begun the process of attaining it.
the goal or the end or the aim of our faith in Christ is to be saved at the end.

Our being saved is in a continuous tense, and not a present tense. or maybe i should say it is in the present-continuous.  


2Pe 1:1-10
(1)  From Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a faith that is as valuable as ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
(2)  May grace and peace be yours in abundance through the full knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord!
(3)  His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through the full knowledge of the one who called us by his own glory and excellence.
(4)  Through these he has given us his precious and wonderful promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, seeing that you have escaped the corruption that is in the world caused by evil desires.
(5)  For this very reason, you must make every effort to supplement your faith with moral character, your moral character with knowledge,
(6)  your knowledge with self-control, your self-control with endurance, your endurance with godliness,
(7)  your godliness with brotherly kindness, and your brotherly kindness with love.
(  For if you possess these qualities, and if they continue to increase among you, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in attaining a full knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(9)  For the person who lacks these qualities is blind and shortsighted, and has forgotten the cleansing that he has received from his past sins.
(10)  So then, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election certain, for if you keep on doing this you will never fail.

We see from the above that we are not to "rest on our oars" because we have believed in christ but that we are to do stuff to ensure that we are going to attain our salvation at the end.

the conclusion of the whole thing here is that one can believe in Christ, but if he/she does not live life as he/she is expected to according to the provisions of the new covenant, that person is bound to stray from the faith and lose his/her salvation which was to come at the end of time.

At the moment, those of us who are in Christ have a down payment for our salvation, but we still do not have the full payment or full attainment.

Eph 1:13
(13)  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

the Holy Spirit is the "down payment" of our salvation. as long as we are sealed and remain in the faith by producing fruit throught that faith by living and walking according to the provisions of the new covenant; in other words: enduring till the end, we shall attain our salvation when Christ comes again.

Gamine:
@ttalks

Even though i believe you are quoting out of context,

this is what im asking about.

When we accept Jesus Christ as our savior and all,
believing in the things he did for us.
Does 'sin' have any hold on us?
Do we have to atone for sins we still commit?
if i die as im committing adultery, will i still go to hell?

well, this post of urs puts things in a different light.
but my post does some justice to this.

It simply means that if we do not endure to the end; remain in the faith, we can't make it.

we do not have to atone for any sins we commit but can always ask for forgiveness ;as long as we genuinely repent of the sins,then are we assured of forgiveness.

as long as we remain in this fleshy cloak of ours, we would always struggle with sin, but as shown from the bible, we have things to do to stay away from committing these sins.
As long as we aren't walking according to the provisions of God's word, we are living in sin.

as regards if one dies while committing adultery, well this should put some light on that:

Heb 10:26-27
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.