₦airaland Forum

Gamine:
@ttalks

i dont really understand you, can you provide any scriptural backing for what you are saying?

Mat 10:22
(22) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

This is just one verse saying something about what i said above.

the word "saved" in the bible is used in different ways:

- It is used in the sense of when a person believes in Christ
- it is also used in the sense of all those who believe in Christ and stay in him till the end.

Going through the accounts of the bible, u'll notice that it isn't just the initial step of believing in christ that is required for Christians to maintain a life in christ; they are to remain in the faith and we know that faith produces fruit to show that one is in the faith.

I'll still add some more verses to support my position.

The concept once saved,saved forever is true.

But such a case does not exist with any living person now.
This is because; those of us who have believed in Christ are not "saved" but have begun the process of being saved.
being saved is a continuous process; an everyday condition.

Everyday, as we try to live according to the precepts of the new covenant, we are being saved.

Total salvation takes place when Christ returns; then when saved it will be forever.

So for now, christians are undergoing the ongoing process of being saved and are not totally saved.

bidemi12:
ttalks Like i said b4 most people are so fustrated with life that they lash out at everything and everyone. From my original post i have shown my disgust for pastors who take advantage of their flock but as a christian i have to do what the bible says. word of advice, do not let poverty dictate your interpretation of the bible.

But when it is scriptures that say that what u believe in is wrong, people will definitely speak up.
For example, ur paying of tithes and giving or sowing of seeds.
A lot of Christians think they are asked by the word of God to pay tithes but that is not true.
I don't want to start talking about that but i think u should read Tonye-T's thread on "Who say's tithing is not new testamental?".
There, u would see arguments for and against tithing under the new testament.

if u are a very honest and sincere person, u will know what side to follow.

here's the link: Who says Tithing is not new testamental?

bidemi12:
@Anonimi Like i said wallow in ignorance

is it that u are afraid to defend ur belief? U're afraid it wouldn't stand up to scrutiny?

bidemi12:
What i come to find out is that most people are so dissappointed and fustrated with life that they lash out at anything. My beliefs are no concern of yours. Have i questioned your logic in being an aethist? what ever works for you mmeeenn. I shudder to live where i do not believe in anything.

Anonimi is not an aetheist but a christian who refuses to be fooled by idiots who think they're Christians.

Php 2:13(KJV)
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Php 2:13(ISV)
(13) For it is God who is producing in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him.

Php 2:13(CEV)
(13) God is working in you to make you willing and able to obey him.

Php 2:13(BBE)
(13) For it is God who is the cause of your desires and of your acts, for his good pleasure.

More evidence to show that it is God that is behind our wills; showing clearly that our wills are not free but are influenced/caused/motivated wills.

Any who professes Christ was able to do that because God made him able to do so.

1Co 12:3
(3) Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Rom 3:10-12
(10)  As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
(11)  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
(12)  They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

This is the state of every person who has not been called and declared righteous by God.

Can someone tell me how such a people/persons can respond to the gospel of Christ when they are by default not able to respond to it since they do not seek after God?

It is not possible to respond to the gospel unless God intervenes; unless God draws a person.

It is not by the will or effort of the person/persons involved but by the mercy and will of God.

Romans 9:16
(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

when people do not respond to the gospel of Christ, it is because Satan has blinded them, not because they chose to ignore; - No one can know the truth and not respond to it.

But God has a masterplan and part of that plan was to ensure that only those whom he chose from the foundations of the world to be saved would be saved in this world.

The devil was created for the purpose of not allowing the unchosen to see and know the truth.

The devil himself has no choice in the matter because he too has no free will because he was created as the ultimate villainous creation for the purpose of leading men astray.
The devil is just a properly functioning creation of God.

He was evil from the beginning and will always be evil till the end.

Remember, he was created by God and can we recall what God concluded when he was through with creation?

Gen 1:31
(31)  And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So, the devil being the perfect being for leading man astray and Adam being the perfect creature capable of sinning was all "Good" because it was all in the line of God's purpose for mankind.

It would be needful to state here that the very general and worldwide conception that the devil was an initially good being is very false. He was evil from the very beginning.

John 8:44
(44)  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

The devil was never Lucifer nor was he a beautiful angel; he is and always has been Satan ; the devil.

the concept of Lucifer generally understood is very wrong cos based on the original manuscripts of the bible, that word was not supposed to be in the bibles we have today, and the references thought to be meant towards the devil in the part where it was used was never towards or in reference to the devil but the King of babylon.

Isa 14:12
(12)  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

The word Lucifer; with proper study is an inappropriate word for that verse and was never in reference to the devil but to a man; the King of Babylon.
Please do a very thorough study of this cos it is important to really see and get things in the proper perspective.

Let's even say Noah was supposed to put whales in the ark(though he wasn't), doesn't common sense suggest that he would have gotten two baby/kid whales?

OLAADEGBU:
[url=http://www.icr.org/article/4871//]"if any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved" (v. 15).

[/color]"[/i]

Olaadegbu, i want to know what u understand by the quote above.
I want ur personal opinion based on ur understanding and not a copied and pasted article if u please.

Olaadegbu,

You come across as funny sometimes with ur conclusions about a person.

The place where I meet with brethren provides the basic truths of God's word. Before joining them, I learnt how to read and study and interprete scriptures.
So, as it is, there are stuff that after a few perusals, I know what is truly in line with God's word and that which isn't.

I don't read Awake magazines;the last time I did was when i was in my secondary school days, and even then I never believed in their stuff.

Now, back to the issue at hand:

You seem to indicate that man has a free will. Well, that isn't new; practically the whole of the Christian adherents believe this.
But it is not so.

Some of the verses I gave earlier show that man does not have a free will, but a will that is in tune or influenced by God's ultimate will.

As i did in another thread, here is the definition of a free will:

- The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

There is no decision or choice that man makes that isn't influenced by some cause,situation or external agency.

God is the originator of these causes, situations, etc which influence us into making one choice or the other.

The same thing with becoming born again. We do not choose to be born again because we do not choose Christ; he chose us.
Without the influence of God, no man can choose God.


Joh 6:44
(44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Eph 1:3-5
(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
(4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,


Eph 1:11
(11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom 8:28-30
(28) And we know that he works all things together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.
(29) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
(30) And those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

before the foundations of this world, God had already chosen whom he would save. so , as time went by, he called those who he had predestined to be saved.
How did he call them?
Through the gospel of Christ.

The same gospel which thousands still reject till this day? how come those who accepted it could accept it when some couldn't/wouldn't?

Simple; "No man can come to me except the Father draws him. . "

God does the drawing because, without the drawing, no man would/could respond to the gospel.

And why is that? It is because:

2Co 4:4
(4) In their case, the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe to keep them from seeing the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God.

The god of this world; Satan, has blinded their minds.

But why would Satan blind their minds and God allows such?

Because, God created Satan for that very purpose; all in the line of fulfilling God's ultimate will and purpose.

I'm sure i still have to put out some more points but let's digest these for a while.

Olaadegbu,not everything u see me talk about is as a result of what is being taught at the place were i gather with other brethren.                                      Most of what i say here is based on my own personal study and research of the word of God; quite unlike u that just repeats what u hear.                                                         You might feel offended by what i said about the purpose and will of God.That's also because ur conception of hell is very wrong as indicated by ur last post. it just shows that u have a lot more to learn.          No problem man;just study and research more and u'll come ito the complete knowledge of the truth.

Did u read the rest of the passage Olaadegbu?

Rom 9:15-21
(15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
(18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
(19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
(20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

God is the reason behind every righteous person and every sinful person.
God willed from the very beginning that some people would "resist" his will and some wouldn't; all this is in accordance to his will.
Adam sinning was part of God's will, humanity sinning was part of god's will.

Why do u think the question was asked that, "Why doth he yet find fault?"
That's because it is crystal clear that God was the one who caused Pharaoh to "resist" his will, and is the reason behind every other person who resists his will up till today because of his ultimate purpose; the bigger picture which he wants to accomplish.


Humanity was not the one who chose to be sinful; God made it that way so as to accomplish his purpose which is very obvious that a whole lot of Christians are not aware of:

Rom 8:19-21
(19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,(21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Try to understand God's purpose and it would be easier for u to understand the point I am trying to drive at.

as regards preaching to Kunle, , he doesn't need me doing that. He is more than capable of knowing God's truths on his own.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=307798.msg4654800#msg4654800 date=1254499611]

@Ttalks my brother,

Men at least i have come up with evidences since the inception of the topic and even showed u explicitly from few portions of the bible and you rightly agreed. If you have accepted it that way, its ok. but pls show me where i have twisted the scriptures, show me where i have imposed titheing, show me where i have called it a law under moses.[/quote]Tonye,

I'm not sure what u mean by I "rightly agreed", but if it is to say that i agreed with ur point of view about tithes, that is false. the only time i agreed/or could agree with u is when u state a fact from the bible.

- As regards, showing u where u twisted the scripture, i don't think I can go through the whole thread to pick an example, but one sure situation or scenario is when u tried to use 1 Corinthians 16:2 as a point to show the practice of tithes.

An honest look and study of that passage would show that there was nothing suggesting or indicating tithes. That passage only communicated the collection of offerings on a fixed day of a week/weekly basis for the saints in Jerusalem who had need.

I present it below in its context of use:

1Co 16:1-3
(1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
(2) Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
(3) And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

When u presented the verse, it was in isolation of the verse before and after it; thereby making it look like what u wanted it to convey.

Also, ur presentation and conclusion of Matthew 23:23 is not unbiased, because u did not do a proper analysis of it. looking at it on the surface, it would look like u did a good job of it, but failing to point out the obvious facts about that statement made therein makes ur point not totally honest.

I didn't say all this to go into a fresh analysis of the points I made above; i just did this since u requested that I should show u were or how u twisted scriptures.

- Again, u might have not imposed tithing, but making remarks which might look innocent but still convey the fact that u feel it is compulsory for the Christian faith is close to imposing.

- I never for once said u implied that tithing was a law of Moses; that was my argument and that of others because ur point about it not being a law is a very inconceivable one because although it originated before the law of moses, the law of Moses made it part of its requirements of service to God.
While the new covenant which is what we operate within does not impose it on us as a requirement for our service to God.

As i said before, all these which i have written above is in answer to ur last post to me; and not a fresh analysis of points all over again.

2Co 2:17(KJV)
(17) For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

2Co 2:17(ISV)
(17) At least we are not commercializing God's word like so many others. Instead, in Christ we speak with sincerity, like people who are sent from God and are accountable to God.

2Co 2:17(CEV)
(17) A lot of people try to get rich from preaching God's message. But we are God's sincere messengers, and by the power of Christ we speak our message with God as our witness.

2Co 2:17(BBE)
(17) For we are not like the great number who make use of the word of God for profit: but our words are true, as from God, being said as before God in Christ.

As shown by the verse above in different translations, it is very clear that many, even in the time of the apostles preached a corrupted version of the gospel mainly for the purpose of selfish gain and profit.
Those were false prophets/teachers/ministers and it was the majority that were so while the minority were the genuine stuff.

Relate that with the current state of Christianity in the world today and what do u see if not the same thing.


Most denominations of Christianity; especially the pentecostals are guilty of corrupting the word of God for selfish gain/profit which they try to cover up in the name of some stupid and phantom prosperity gospel.
and if u properly notice, they are among/or make up the majority cos those who are after what the gospel of Christ is really about are in the minority.

The majority do not realize that they are part of the great LovePeddler of Babylon depicted in the book of the revelation of Jesus Christ.

OLAADEGBU:
Well said.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. -- John 3:19-20

The same sunlight that melts wax also hardens clay. As God's light shines on man, the sinner's heart determines his response. One whose heart is tender will respond to God, one whose heart is bent on evil will harden his heart further against God and will remain in darkness. Sinners should note: After Pharaoh repeatedly hardened his heart against God (Exodus 8:15,32), God then hardened Pharaoh's heart (Exodus 10:27). Those who continualllly reject God will be given up to "uncleanness, vile affections, and a reprobate mind" (Romans 1:24,26,28).

Just had to make a point here:

All the hardenings of Pharaoh's heart were all a result of God's doing and not Pharaoh's.
It was God's will for Pharaoh to harden his heart and Pharaoh had no choice than to respond to that will.

Rom 9:15-18
(15) For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
(18 ) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

It is not about what man wills to do or tries to do; it is all about the will and purpose of God.

[quote author=t-tos link=topic=330590.msg4653653#msg4653653 date=1254488938]yap, I believe that there's Heaven and hell based on some on the scripture which says Heaven and Earth will passed away but my word will never
passed away without fulfilment.
Also the the case of Lazarus and the rich man in the bible.[/quote]The case of Lazarus and the rich man in the bible was a parable and should not be taken literally.

The truth is that, as of now, no single person is in heaven or has been to heaven; except Jesus Christ.

John 3:13
(13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Neither is anybody in any "hell" being roasted forever.

All the dead are dead and are awaiting the day of resurrection which is the day of the Lord.

1Co 15:20
(20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Co 15:51
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Ecc 9:5
(5) The living are conscious that death will come to them, but the dead are not conscious of anything, and they no longer have a reward, because there is no memory of them.

Psa 13:3
(3) Let my voice come before you, and give me an answer, O Lord my God; let your light be shining on me, so that the sleep of death may not overtake me;

Deu 31:16
(16) And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.


There is no consciousness or knowlegde or awareness when one is dead. When one dies, they go into a continuous sleep until the day of resurrection.

So, Abraham,Moses,Lazarus, etc are all asleep and not in heaven and are also waiting for the day of resurrection

Gentle me:
Ttalks and Kunleoshod you people are confused, i read somewhere you said me and Tonye-t are the same persons, its so obvious that you folks dont know what to argue about again.

And as for ttalks,

Thanks for putting your end to this topic, as it appears he has shown you guys simple and clear facts that titheing is still relevant

Gentle me:
even you mate ttalks and zzikky have backed out by publicly accepting it in their comments.

Gentle me or whoever u might really be, please try to read and understand when involved in threads like these.

How could u deduce so horribly and poorly that I accepted Tonye's arguments?
Can't you read?

I came to a realization that all the points I had made and was still making weren't making any difference in the ideologies of Tonye and other pro tithers.
So I decided to save my energy; since I had done quite a reasonable lot in that regard, and pulled out of the debate and asked him (Tonye) to "live his life".
I can't force him to accept my views.

There are people who have been granted to see the issues of Christianity in the same vein that I am and still am; and there are people who aren't. Clearly, it is obvious what group Tonye falls into.

I have said all that I need to say and I have exited the debate.
It is foolish and stupid to deduce that such an action is acceptance of Tonye's belief's or arguments.

If u have been active on nairaland for a while, u'll notice that it was the same position i adopted after debating for a very long while with someone who also had a fixed and adamant view on tithes in another thread on tithes which has been dormant for a very long while now.

This is the second(maybe third) time that u have shown poor deduction skills as regards my posts. You need to sharpen up those skills so they wouldn't let u down in the near future.

"stay safe."

Seun:
You don't want to know what I now think she was.

Are you thinking what I am thinking?

Tonye-T,

Since u're the originator of this thread, i guess u're the one I should address.

We've been through this issue of tithes for quite a while and some pages now. Looking at the points we all made and the stances which we all still solidly stand by, I guess the only thing left to say is; just as in T.I/Rihanna's duet:

". . . Live ur life . . ."

See u in some other thread.

Krayola,
as regards ur question about how the law of the graven images relate to the new law from Christ, I guess this verses are the proper ones for that:

Mat 22:37-40
(37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
(38) This is the first and great commandment.
(39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
(40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

When u love the lord thy God with all ur heart, u would not be paying homeage to some other gods/idols/graven images.
Paying homeage or worshipping the graven images would mean that one does not love God.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=330652.msg4646765#msg4646765 date=1254402763]
[b]even you and your allies (ttalks, and the likes) accepted somehow consciously or unconsciously to my point after showing them plainly from the Great and undisputed book (the bible),[/b]and now you come up here to say its SCRIPTURE TWISTING, hmmmm, atleast maybe my "twisting"got some folks to accept, And guess what i gave a double of my tithe last month, and my salary just got increased by 75% as i am writing from the office, now dont you think i will still continue championing the crusade of TITHEING so that all christian folks may some how get to see the truth (the hidden truth) [/quote]Hmm, somebody has started feeling/thinking highly of himself once again. .

Tonye, I must say that ur deduction skills really need some sharpening. Since when did I ever accept in anyway ur point/points about tithing?

If you check my last posts on the tithing thread of urs, u'll see that I categorised ur type into a group of tithers that are clearly on the wrong path.

Telling urself what you want about a situation doesn't make it what you want.

I would have to say it here that in light of what the scripture says, we do not have any freewill.

The so called free will which most think we have is not free but subject to the will of God.

Definition of freewill:
- The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.

Our will is not free since it is influenced by external agencies.

Rom 9:16-21
(16) So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
(17) For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
(18) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
(19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
(20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
(21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Rom 8:20
(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Our wills are subject to God's will and purpose. Our so called free will is influenced by what God's will and purpose is and therefore isn't free.

Bobbyaf:
I am not here to judge, but to promote. True tithers have reaped God's blessings, and can testify to that. Besides, Its God who has said that those who don't tithe are robbers, not me.

Which then means u belong to the first group; which is the problematic group.

I believe in the bible not just the NT.  "All scripture is given by inspiration and is, "

The bible shows a whole lot that leads to our salvation. It is your responsibility to pick out what is necessary for the faith in Christ and leave out what isn't necessary because all that isn't necessary only pointed to what is necessary.

Bobbyaf:
Its the same issue of why some Christians keep Sunday rather than the true Lord's day, isn't it? Is it the same misinterpretation of the Pauline writings that have led to such spiritual confusion?

People use the so-called abolishing of the law as an argument for not keeping the 7th-Day Sabbath, when in truth and in fact Paul kept the sabbath the way it should have been kept without having to emphasize it, and that is because it was already a given. Everybody kept it.

The same applies to the tithes. What the NT doesn't isolate as legalistic, or an act that insults God's grace, let it be. Its not like its posing a problem to any organization that practises it.

Tithers do not have a problem, so do not create one for us.

The issue of the sabbath is an issue for another day.
The thing here is those who tithe are of two groups:
- those who tithe according to the law; who expect blessings for it according to the law and believe that others who don't tithe are wrong and are robbing God.

- those who out of love for God and his creation, decide of their own volition to give 10% of their income to meeting needs of the people and that is all the motivation behind their giving of the tithe.

the former are the problem while the latter are ok.

Galatians 5:4 applies to the former.

The new testament does not require Christians to tithe but if those who do tithe are of the latter group i described above, they have no problem.

1Co 7:19
(19)  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

the above is applicable for tithing under the proper circumstances; since we know that that statement of Paul is as regards the proper circumstances(Galatians 5)

Bobbyaf:
So, why didn't Paul make mention of so important a matter of not tithing, or tithing, as much as he addressed circumcision? You cannot impose Paul's approach to missionary work on Christians generally.

Paul spoke on issues based on context. He spoke out against circumcision, yet he circumcised Timothy.

Paul did not neet to mention tithing. the examples put across by the happenings in his time and that of the other apostles combined with the totality of the bibles message shows that tithing is not a prerequisite for the Christian faith.

Paul had reason for circumcising Timothy:

Act 16:2-3
(2)  The Lord's followers in Lystra and Iconium said good things about Timothy,
(3)  and Paul wanted him to go with them. But Paul first had him circumcised, because all the Jewish people around there knew that Timothy's father was Greek.

He did it because of the jews.

1Co 7:19
(19)  Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Just as we would say "Tithing is nothing and not tithing is nothing, but the keeping of God's commandments."

People who decide of their own freewill and out of love to make a constant donation of ten percent of their income towards helping the needy or meeting various needs of the ministry of Christ are not doing anything wrong, but it is those that have the backing and motivation by the law's injunctions as their reason for tithing that have a problem.

Atheists:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? [size=15pt]Then whence cometh evil?[/size]
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Isa 45:5-7
(5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
(6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
(7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God created evil.And all the evil we see is as a result of that which he created.

I guess u'd say, "aha!", but that's because u still haven't seen the bigger picture.

Bobbyaf:
Paul no doubt addressed missionary work. He speaks of personal experiences in terms of how he approached such work, and being the type of strong-willed person he was should we be surprised of such remarks? That was the typical Paul.  

In other sections of the Pauline writings he says, " those who preach the gospel should live by the gospel" In this day and age if there isn't a plan of systematic giving to support God's church, and its ministry it will fail.

Those who preach the gospel should live by the gospel is true.
But living by the gospel is what Paul declined to do and expected that others too should do so.

But fine, those who determine to live by it should live off the free will donations and offerings made by the people.If they can't survive on that, they have a problem.
The gospel is supported by what the people can and want to give and not by any tithes.

Paul's ministry throughout the bible was supported by the freewill donations and offerings of believers and never tithes.

Anybody reading tithes into any of those examples of giving is a liar.

As regards those who want to live by the proceeds of the gospel, the verses below should apply very strongly:

Php 4:10-13
(10) But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly, that now at the last your care of me hath flourished again; wherein ye were also careful, but ye lacked opportunity.
(11) Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.
(12) I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
(13) I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

if any minister wants to live of the proceeds of the gospel, he should be ready to be content with whatever comes out of it;whether much or little.
he should know how to survive when ther is little or none and also when there is plenty as this is the case when people give as they can and not according to a legalistic/systematic method such as tithing.

OLAADEGBU:
Written for Our Learning
October 1, 2009

"For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope." (Romans 15:4)

Let no modern Christian ever think that he can ignore the Old Testament and base all his faith and practice on just the twenty-seven books of the New Testament, as vital as they are. Even the apostle Paul, who wrote more of the New Testament than anyone else, depended heavily on the Old Testament Scriptures for his exposition of the New Testament doctrines he had received "by the revelation of Jesus Christ" (Galatians 1:12).

For example, in the longest and most doctrinal of all his epistles--that is, Romans--he actually quoted from the Old Testament no less than sixty times, even though the epistle had been specifically addressed to Gentiles (Romans 11:13).

In his letter to the Gentiles at Corinth, after an extensive discussion of the Old Testament account of the experience of the Israelites in the wilderness, he said: "Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come" (1 Corinthians 10:11).

In this passage, the word translated "examples" is the Greek tupos, from which we derive our word "types." Thus the experiences of the Israelites were actually revealed by God to be "types" of Christ and our relation to Him. Therefore, in addition to the many explicit prophecies about Christ in the Old Testament, many other Scriptures can be profitably expounded as "types" of Christ. Indeed, in all the Old Testament Scriptures, as Christ Himself taught, are "things concerning himself" (Luke 24:27). HMM

We know the old testament had to do with stuff written for our learning.
But the stuff in there are just that; "for our learning", and not application.
The "types" were translated into something else and not the same as they were before.

eg. The offering of animals for sacrifice for the atonement of sins that was a regular and continuous practice; which later became Christ's death on the cross which was once and for all.

So, what has tithes translated to, or is it a type that should not be translated?
It should be left as it was?

That's being selective.

Bobbyaf:
Its serious stuff alright, but Paul's personal opinion, which he gave in other situations, must not be made into a requirement. Must we forbid marriage as the Catholic priests have and use Paul's advice as a standard, or should we see it as just a recommendation? I hope not!

The point I am making Ttalks is that not everything that is placed under the Mosaic system automatically makes it bad, or legalistic. There were all types of laws that served different purposes back then that if were applied today would make much practical sense. There were financial laws, agricultural laws, quarantine and hygiene laws,
personal Laws etc.

Hence the tithing just happens to be one of those principles that is worth continuing. There is nothing in the NT that says it is a sin to tithe.

2Th 3:6-10
(6)  Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
(7)  For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
(  Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
(9)  Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
(10)  For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

This is not Paul's personal opinion.
This is what they expected of every Christian.

Everything which was Pauls opinion was stated so.In this case, this is not his opinion but their expectation based on the gospel that they taught.

Rom 8:19-21
(19) For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Eph 1:11
(11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him(God) who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The fall of man was all part of God's purpose. Everything that is happening or has been happening and will happen is all according to his purpose.
How you view it is based on how you view the whole picture.

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=330652.msg4643666#msg4643666 date=1254346494]WHAT?!
I'm pretty sure you were eating bread as you typed this rubbish.Who cares about the soul? Why is my soul important to you?

80% of 180 million nigerians live on less than $1 a day and you're telling them to feed the soul?
Nigerians are naturally gullible but go to a refugee camp in congo or ethiopia and say this "feed your soul" bullshit and see if you come out alive or dead with a dry spoon up your arse.[/quote]

OLAADEGBU:
You are right, wine, indeed is a mocker.

Do not be Deceived
Proverbs 20:1-15

"Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." -- Proverbs 20:1

A group of Dutch scientists, according to a research published in April 2009 in the journal of Epidemiology and Community Health, claim that people who drink half a glass of wine a day live four years longer than people who do not drink alcohol. Their claim is strange and misleading because it failed to highlight the statistics of untimely deaths caused by drunk drivers and suppressed the problem of addiction which has become the hallmark of alcoholism today.

Wine, as portayed in our text has deceived many; it does not only overcome them before they are aware, it promises them certain pleasures which it does not give. Drunkenness results in pain and mockery and exposes people to reproach, disgrace and derision. Alcohol sets people to scoff at their companions and even to mock at religion, and all that is good and serious (Hosea 7:5). Strong drink not only distrubs the brain, it makes a man rage and quarrelsome.

To some college students, heavy drinking that leads to vomitting is not alcohol abuse but simply "having a good time" and being "one of the gang"; this has claimed the lives of many who die through accidents. Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (FAS) is another irreversible condition associated with consumption of alcohol by pregnant women. Each and every case of FAS is a needless tragedy. Victims suffer serious physical deformities and often mental deficiencies. And they suffer these problems for their entire lives. Numerous other health problems are associated with alcohol consumption, which should be avoided.

Many people find organised programmes very useful in helping them reduce their consumption to moderate levels. One of such best known programmes is Moderation Managmemt. For those who need to quit drinking entirely, Jesus remains the only answer. His blood will miraculously deliver you from alcohol addiction more than any rehabilitaion centre can do.

Your happiness is not in a bottle but in the Blood of the Lamb.

This is piffle.

Olaadegbu and some others just can't point out the clear truths about some things.

piffle,piffle.

Bobbyaf:
He fended for himself because that was how he chose to do it. Its that simple. He gave no command for pastors to fend for themselves. As usual you use one irrelevant topic to strengthen your opinion. Learn to make the distinction between an opinion and fact.

1Co 11:1
(1) Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Php 3:17-19
(17) Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
(18) (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
(19) Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

These look like some serious expectations from Paul from us Christians.

And this is what Christ said to his apostles of which Paul is one of them:

Luk 10:16
(16) He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.

pretty serious stuff, aight?!