₦airaland Forum

@Op, you may not realise it but I believe the title of this thread accurately captures the heart of the matter.

Your fear of marriage is down to the fact that you do not understand it (and I'd imagine further, because you haven't seen the marriage union articulated in a way that makes it aspirational for you). Afterall, if you understood it, you'd be free to embrace it, or reject it as something that isn't for you.

It's further compounded by the pressure and in some sense the inveitability of having to undertake it, without fully getting it or knowing if you truly want it.

I think your questioning this is briliant and one of the best things you could do for yourself. Because entering into it without fully understanding it, is to dangerously amplify what should at the very worst quite minimal risk.

If you'd like to discuss further or post a question, please do so. The are number of ways to approach this, but I'd rather follow your lead if you so desire.

Best
TV

Intuitively, I would have no sympathy if you tasted a little judgement for your past misdeeds, and no problem with you learning a very painful lesson here. Hopefully one that meant you never behaved in such a manner again.

By your own admission,you treated "this chic" - and in all likelihood a number of others - like dirt. The ramifications of your maltreatment may well reverberate for a long time to come, potentially hurting all of her future relationships. If she's lucky she'll meet someone mature enought to carry the burden of loving her better, if indeed she ever fully heals.

We all have sisters, daughters mothers and wouldn't want them treated in that way. Given my experience and what I have seen/heard,I am quite downbeat about the "Nigerian woman", but it has to be said the "Nigerian man" has been her worst abuser. And you can't coruscate one without bringing shame on the other.

Having said that, I am a great believer in redemption, so if you are generally remorseful and true in your intentions, I have this advice for you; humble yourself. Apologise and beg if you have to. Make a long-term commitment that includes marriage vows and pray that she will perhaps give you the opportunity to be that man that loves her better. You absolutely don't deserve it.

Any less and you are just picking up where you left off.

Sorry if I come across a bit harsh, but you have been a bit of a prick behaved despicably.

I wish "the chic" full restoration and all the best - with or without you.

TV

afam4eva: This marraige of a thing always seems like a raffle draw where the lucky ones...

Luck mostly comes into play when it's entered into unprepared. With the right preparation and expectations, the right understanding, the right person and at the right time, it can be a cakewalk. Really.

Please don't be put off.

All the very best
TV

^{and yes, I'd absolutely marry her again. Although that doesn't mean I don't believe I could have a really good marriage with any number of other suitable women and the idea of being able to have it really good again but differently makes me wonder. But this gal is special, so I'm not sure I'd risk it .}

@OP, Yes, you do have a choice. Look to your faith in God, recall your vows and your commitment to your wife and make it.

All the very best.
TV

I'm more or less with CC on this, especially per her last post.

@Davidlyan
Life is messy and not as clear cut as we'd like to imagine. I have mentioned - in context - the powerful cultural imperatives of marriage and/or children, they are driven by societal pressure and desire, not by circumstances (its why I noted that recent phenomena of older single mothers). Can I even think of any more powerful drivers? Your thinking is eminently sensible. In fact, I can't fault it, but maybe a little naive?

CC' example of her start to married life is in fact typical. We get whatever qualifications we can, plan/pursue careers or business and hope for the best. There may not be a specific plan, but I'm in no doubt that most plan to "work and do their very best"?

I planned and prepared for my marriage for years and saved relentlessly. I even "slummed it" to save money. I knew I'd have to upgrade my "ketekete" car, fund a wedding, set-up home and expect kids. And I did this without knowing or factoring in what my WTB' financial position would be would have by way of finances. The wife sef, seemed like she would never show. Ol' boy, I prayed till I was hoarse.

Having by the grace of God gotten there, would more money have been good? Absolutely and without being profligate. Would I have done it with less. No question. A lot less. Maybe not to the degree of my "slumming it" days, but with the right women, I would have gone into it (marriage)with a view to working through and out of it (the financial hardship).

Even now, we are stable, financially, things are ok, we've progressed through the list, but I still can't gaurantee anything monetary wise. Very few are able to do that.

The right person is to my mind more important than the finances. Op' husband knows that much. And when I said "keeper" I meant from his point of view. He got that much right.

I'm loathe to have a go at anyones spouse, particularly not having heard their own account of affairs. I just don't feel it's my place and consider everyones' matrriage as sacrosanct as my own.

And in my walk, God has always been key. Not in a cliched way, but faith has really availed for me. Over and above practica christianity, which I also ascribe to.

I once knew this "pastor", who always used to shake is head and point his finger, saying "ah, marriage is expensive 0!"

Best
TV

I'd like to think that Oga is also chasing up leads as to what steps the family can take to improve their fortunes. It's a partnership no? Wherever the solution comes from, if it's viable it's paydirt, if it works, jackpot.

I'm a little puzzled at pride - even minimally - being a factor here. How glamorous can any minimum wage job be? And no matter how glamourous it is, who wouldn't jump at the chance of something better paying, no matter how less glamorous?

Financial planning prior to marriage? That's all well and good, laudable even. But in reality, when the time, circumstance or the person comes, for most, it is at best a secondary consideration and even then, not a long-term one.

I have English friends who often use the phrase "we can't afford to have children". I don't see that term in the Nigerian lexicon. The poorest of the poor marry and sire offspring. And culturally we see it as an obligatory "life achievement", regardless of our means.

(As an aside, has anyone else noticed the phenomena, whereby African women of an age will simply have a kid, regardless of means or a man? I am not referring to the age-old teenage pregnancy issue here. I have witnessed this repeatedly in different settings of late. Or was I just late cottoning on here? A few years back,someone told me her mother had told her that at 38 with no husband,she'd best have a kid. I didn't take it seriously at the time, but I see this constantly now).

You are 40/40+ and you meet a "keeper". But you aren't that financially stable. Will you honestly wait till you are more financially bouyant before you get married? Likewise you are that age and married, will you really subject your fertility to your finances? I don't think so. Besides, finances can go from solid to decidedly shakey in a flash. It wouldn't be a reason to undo your vows would it?

Most, consciously or unconsciously, go by the "two can live more cheaply than one" maxim, or the Nigerian equivalents "we will manage" or "God will provide". They will typically worry only about the wedding cost (short-term) and possibly the cost of setting up home (and that cost would in a sense, have been ongoing anyway), and proceed.

Then kids come along, and like the introduction of a long forgotten debt that have been accruing usurious interest, finances take a hit. I say kids, because the thinking after the first one will invariably be " lets just get childbirth out of the way and have the next one, two. More especially for older couples. Like I said, I totally get the ideal, but in the Nigerian context, the imperative of marriage and children swipes it aside.


Sorry for digressing/derailing.

Best
TV

For the vast majority of Nigerians living in the UK the OP' situation is I would imagine quite "typical". Although individual circumstances may vary "within a range". Indeed, there are big earners within the community, but like the extremely impoverished, they would be the exception rather than the rule in absolute terms.

I would actually consider the stated joint net monthly take home pay to be within the bulge bracket, although perhaps not middle class per se.

I would think 2-5K p/m would capture most families. May sound like a wide range, but like Naijas would say it's levels. For many the difference would be taken up by larger house, nicer area, smarter car, better (fee-paying) schools. And yes there may be more bandwidth for contingency and "luxuries"

Other factors may come into play, immigration status, duration - i.e., been around long and have saved or managed to acquire property when prices where more reasonable vs. relatively recent arrival. Right now it's actually cheaper to own. It's scaling the deposit and creditworthiness hurdles that is hurting people.

I'm concerned about the hand to mouth situation, especially if it means no "rainy day" finance is in place. If so that has to be addressed as a priority. What happens if one of you loses your job? You both sound very sensible with your finances, so I am not faulting you here.

Are you looking for something transformational or just a marginal. Things are so structured, that marginal increments sometimes make little difference. A 10% increase would bring in approx 2.5 k p/a. That woud barely fund a trip back home or cover a move to a larger place or nicer area or a vehicle upgrade. This country has a funny way of swallowing any income? For things to get "gradually better", typically one must be working towards something or have the basis for that to happen?

Could the business you run with hubby be the key? If hubby is gifted as stated, why not look to form strategic alliances? Gifts bring one before people Se? What of friends, family or fellowship I thought I heard church)? Whether its working with, for, alongside or just gaining insight. That should go for both. Everything from money saving/home economics tips to solid business ideas. Thanks for the link BB, me sef go read am.

Op is appreciative of her blessings, which is really good. Always look to He from whom help comes. Maybe the miraculous will come into play.

There has been lots of support on this thread, not withstanding the odd "off key" post. I've little to add.

Don't tithe. But do give if able, there are always those less fortunate.
Please stay away from consumer debt as best you can.
Do try and find ways to treat yourselves.

I wish you and your family all the best.

TV

Both partners in a marital union should pay the utmost regard to the desires and feelings of the other.

There is nothing inherently risky about it - noting preexisting medical conditions - and it is in no way perverted. It's normal and proven to be beneficial.

And for the woman, it's probably more than just the act; she will want the re-assurance that her husband still finds her attractive and alluring, despite this bewildering change to her body. Especially if she's a first timer.

If the "non-communication" stems from him and if it's due to this, it's a shame. Wifey needs his support at this time. She should ensure it's not something else causing it, but whatever it is, the lines need to be opened and clear. She needs to keep plugging away and come to an understanding with her hubby.

I never knew how it would be, but I approached it with an open mind. It made absolutely no difference to us. We still wonder if that's why Jnr was past-term sef. All that banging made him scared to come out .

Women are more likely to be "off it" post-partum. If he is off for the 9 months before and she for a long period after, that could spell a long period without. That in itself could be problematic for some.


Best
TV

For those that would appreciate clarity on my position.

Why take the ideal that many hold precious and strive to re-engineer it in an attempt to resolve problems in the middle. Problems which would mostly have been obviated by ensuring a proper foundation was set from the beginning.

An ideal that has served so many, so well, for so long. If you know or feel that you cannot live up to the ideal, simply opt out. Don’t try and dilute it to suit self-serving views and selfish needs if/or when the going gets tough, especially if the tough going is due to poor execution. There is no problem with the ideal

Don’t introduce more reasons for divorce, revisit the criteria and protocols for marriage, thus strengthening the ideal and preserving its benefits and value. Likewise, don’t warp it to include those for whom it is not intended, which will have the same deleterious effect. Both of these moves are wrong – and deleterious - hence my ascribing them to the same hydra.

Rather give them their own construct if they insist. Society has the powers to legislate for its desires. Simply go ahead. Why seek to use that power to pervert a cherished, beneficial and to many a God given institution.

Society has permitted, baby fathers/mothers, common-law unions and civil partnerships. We hear of “starter marriages”, co-habitation, pre-nups, post-nups, FWB, FB’s, Jump-Offs. Keep on constructing if you must. But please leave the ideal for those that cherish it.

I sympathise but I am not moved by the tragic stories - which always speak to issues after the fact and not the very foundation. I have rarely seen any "situation" that could not be traced back to a faulty base.

I sympathise, but don't believe the ideal is flawed or requires re-engineering. To me that makes about as much sense as saying more guns will mean less violence.

Best
TV

Let me comment if I may.

For those that don’t know, I am a Christian and I take a biblical – realising that there can be as many interpretations as there are Christians here – view of marriage.

My view put simply, is that marriage is 1. Of God 2. Between a man and a woman 3. For life 4. Divorce permitted – not prescribed - only in the event of adultery and 5. Remarriage allowed only in the event of the death of one of the spouses.

Having said that I am loathe to be dogmatic. A religious spirit can lead to great evils. We are all products of our societies, influences, experiences, beliefs, the things we have seen and heard. How many NL’ers have confessed to change of views based on what they’ve heard on this forum alone?


So, to the question of divorce. And, from the perspective of one who champions marriage.

My first response is not to look for reasons to divorce, it’s to say, “what reasons do you have to marry in the first place”? This discussion should be end to end, and start at the beginning.

From preparing the person, their understanding and their expectations. The benefits to them and the value to society. To ensuring that proper protocols are in place in all respects prior to any "marriage". Many simply get it wrong going in, then look to reason their way out.

I personally consider a lot of the reasons given here for divorce are either spurious and subjective; unhappiness/suffering, or extreme, heinous brutality/hideous diseases/painful death. It is pertinent to note that on this forum, we tend to read almost universally of instances where there are problems, potentially skewing our view of what really obtains in the vast majority of cases, let alone those executed in proper manner.

When the conversation is typically initiated around individual or unique experiences and starts at the point of issues as opposed to inception – after and not before - and is rarely viewed against an objective standard, is it any surprise that many – visitors to this forum alone – are being put off marriage, due to the unbalanced discourse and not realising there is a more wholesome perspective.

I have outlined my view on marriage in points 1-5 above. It seems to me that many want to be able to embrace it without living up to what it entails. Maybe I should have added a 6th point; “it’s sacrificial in nature”.

Instead of re-engineering what marriage, has traditionally represented, why not come up with your own “arrangement”? To my mind, any attempt to “re-engineer” is to me a different head of the same hydra that birthed “gay-marriage”. Those who are God’s are known to him. As are even those who enter into a seemingly traditional arrangement for wrong or with selfish motives.

On the “is marriage worth it for guys thread” I invited proposals for “alternative arrangements” – especially ones that would give the same benefit to society. I am yet to hear. I re-issue that invite here.

Suffice to say, the traditional notion of marriage is treasured and honoured by many. To those that can't deal with it or don't share it, I would say "don't warp what we hold precious, don't pervert what we consider dear". Construct your own arrangements. If you want "gay-marriage" don't take traditional marriage and re-engineer it - heaven knows it abused enough already - formulate and build your own construct. Pleaseleave ours alone. If you can't take it the way it is,don't abuse it, simply opt-out! If you can't deal with the ideal, don't besmirch and deny others of it. It is as we say "not by force"

There’s is nothing wrong with and no downside to a well executed marriage. It’s the people. It's always the people.

Please note, I write with my own worldview in mind, if you subscribe to a different one that is fine. Also bearing in mind that when I use the term “traditional”, I am not ascribing to the historical abuse that was institutionalised before and remained largely entrenched after the biblical marriage came into view. I mean a proper enunciation of scripture. Even if that interpretation is mine!


Best
TV
"Uxury is Me"

Titan bro', hello sir.

First up, can I just say "I like you"? Thank you. I like you. Yes sirree! I really like you. And for so many reasons, and on so many levels.

You are young, accomplished and that rarity amongst humans - and especially Nigerians these days - one able to care with your whole heart and love with a passion. You're forgiving, with a long term and comitted view to relationships. What's not to like, huh?.

Plus, plus...you brought this to the fore before the fact, not after. Indeed, you brought us a non-issue. That's right sir. I see no real downside here. No problem whatsoever. It's all good. Gravy as we say.

I have one small issue with you, one area where you haven't been "titanic", in fact you've been somewhat "dwarfish". But, please, please, please don't let that detract from the praise that has gone before.

But listen up, 'cos when we done, you will surely grow in stature.

You are a man! You never, ever, let yourself, be driven by emotion. You never, ever allow yourself to be led by beauty or charm. You simply cannot afford that luxury.

You are indeed blessed, as you've just had an experience, which with a slightly different - and one you may well have considered "happy" - ending may have meant your ruin, or at least a seriously diminished existence for a longtime to come. You are one lucky brother.

This girl was sent to help you transform this area of dwarfism into a titanic strength as truly befits you. Now, we ain't hatin', but in her current incarnation,she is simply not someone any mature man can consider marrying. Not dwarves, not giants and certainly not titans. Don't get me wrong, we want the best for her, we hope she changes, but at this point in time, she is simply wrong.

Could she yet be yours? I feel the chances of that are very slim, but possibly. However, you should not pursue it in any way. Do not, I repeat, do not contact her. Not on her birthday, before her finals, if she breaks a nail, or for any other reason.

If you run into her, be polite, exchange greetings, but do not tarry. Pleasantries sef, are a no,no. And if you can avoid her without being rude, do so. Do not contact or approach her!

If she actively tries to approach or contact you, briefly state "no rancour, but it's best you cease contact". No long-winded explanation, no tori. And afford her that courtesy just the once,then feel free to simply ignore her. You almost got this right at a point.

You need closure of this chapter and to change and grow from this. Hopefully she will to, then maybe at some point down the road, who knows? But like I said, there's only a very slim possibility and I kinda doubt it and intuitively,I don't want it. But who am I?.

And note, all those "small small" encounters you narrated here, demean you and make you sound "untitanic". I repeat, "you are a man", don't live by what you feel, act based on what is right and best. Be considered in your utterances. And as has been advanced a few times already, get on with your life. It's for living, not moping. Time will heal you and I suspect you'll soon get over her.

A few words about the main protagonists;

Your family - rightfully dislike her. You are precious to them and a good bloke. She does not respect you and despises them. They can see her character with clear eyes and are livid at her for humiliating you. If that "slim" possibility ever comes to pass, she'll travail to convince them of her changed character and new found sincerity. And will have to swallow a large helping of humility herself. Don't be surprised if they only warily accept her at best or mobilise every effort to end it. You did nothing wrong by "showing her" to them. You should always do that if it's serious.

Your Ex - flawed, selfish and uncaring. Perhaps just young? Perhaps she's simply not ready for a long-term commitment or marriage at 23. Did you rush her ? Don't be bitter about it or twisted about her. It was for your learning. When you meet a woman that is worthy of you and what you bring, you'll look back and be thankful. You'll look forward and be more appreciative of what you will certainly have.

Your Current - that relationship should be ended or immediately downgraded to platonic friendship. You are in no state for a new relationship. You are not being honest or giving her a fair chance. If she is the serious type and serious about the relationship, again it's best you end it for now. You need time to heal. Let's not heap up heartbreak here.

You - I full expect you to progress from titan to colossus. Kick on from here, build your career.How will quality totty not flock your way? Choose wisely, with your head not your heart. Although your heart may kickstart things. Please come back to tell us all about it. We need some goods news up in here.

Now go get some sleep. As one who's been there, I know how it can mess with your sleep patterns. Bet you went all "hermit like" for a while and lost weight to huh ?

Best
TV

jennykadry: She did not call you a liar. I hardly ever agree with Blue diva on this forum but I have to say she raised some very important points there. I am married to a man that loves dancing and trust me, I gave him one hell of a hard time during courtship cos I just assumed he must love clubbing and drinking as well cos yea that is one thing I thought he did whenever he went to the club . It took a lot from him to convince me that it was just a hobby and nothing more and that he could care less if clubs exist. I agree if you saw these signs then I think you both should partake in the blame and not him alone. Don't get me wrong cos I am in no way supporting him BUT the signs were there and you chose to ignore it or better still you chose to MAKE EXCUSES FOR HIM(many women do this). It is an entirely different scenario if the guy hid his bad sides from you but if he didn't and showed you a little of that horrible side of him and you still went ahead to marry him then both of you should chop the blame small.

Post!

I often shake my head - not so vigourously as to do my self any harm of course - in bewilderment, when people come up in here and absolutely demonise their spouses or ex-spouses. Not willing to accept any fault on their part while they paint "the other party" blacker than filth.

Whatever you believe - and I'm convinced that there's a divine grace that goes with marriage whatever you do believe - if you follow pretty much any accepted pre-marriage protocol,engage your support systems and do even a minimal due dilligence, potential problems will be very apparent. What you choose to do with these flags is down to you and the consequences your fault.

Short of being marched down the aisle at gunpoint, the very least anyone should confess to is an error of judgement. In fact a really humble person would simply put their hands up, confess to poor judgement or too being a bit hasty or reckless.

The decision who and when to marry is everyone's individual responsibility. To be mature enough to marry, means to be mature enough to accept responsibility. Hold yourself accountable. It'll speed healing and hopefully help avoid a repeat showing.

Show me someone who claims their marriage breakdown was all the other persons fault and I'll show you a liar.


TV

^{now let me read the thread from the beginning}

Nneson: Thankz to all of u. Feel better and working out how to save my cousine. Pls just pray 4 mi so every thing dont get screwed

It is well Nneson. Your motivation is pure and your intent should be to save your cousin and your wider family from the pain and anguish that will almost certainly ensue if this person continues to have access to your family or eventually becomes a member of it.

And note, there are two issues here, the "attempted molestation" is first a family issue and there is nothng wrong with you encouraging your younger cousin to tell the parents/elders about the incident. This would be the best option. You will have cleared your conscience, without having to relay the situation second hand. Even if you have to tell, do your utmost for your younger cousin to be there when you do

You may decide it would be easier to get the younger sister to tell the older one first? I feel that should be a last resort and is potentially much trickier. It should ultimately get to the hearing of the parents/elders, and fast. Will your elder cousin act rationally here and tell them with her "no hand in my matta " stance?

I still wonder how the mother will react? I hope there are other strong,wise and upright elders in the picture.

You must expose this "work of darkness". Even if wrong decisions are taken after you this is revealed, you have done your duty. I hope it all works out well and you cousin and wider family make the right choices.

Again I wish you Godspeed. And may you never have potential danger hidden from you or those around you hesitate to do you good

All the best
TV

moremi2008: @ OP, I don't know what to say.

In that case, simply say nothing.

moremi2008: This is a touchy situation and I wouldn't recommend that you intervene. At 35, the lady might just need to roll the dice, shoot out some babies and deal with her husband's character flaws later. This is the one time I would recommend the good-old Naija "solution": ignore it and put the lady in your prayers for God to open her eyes to her husband's true nature before it's too late!

Instead, you went on to give poorly thought out, contradictory and patronising advice.

@OP, if you willfully permit a "rubbish" person into your family, there's a very real chance that a series of actions and events will be triggered which will be to the long-term detriment of your family, leading to anguish and pained regret.

Whilst it's ultimately your cousins call as to whether she persists with the relationship, you should prayerfully approach her and tell all.

Also advise her that you would like the elders in your family involved - I don't think you should necessarily carry this burden alone - and give her the option of doing that first. They should have been told as soon as this molestation incident occured. I post on the assumption that the allegation is true?

I fear the mothers stance here sha! Doesn't sound like she has been the most supportive or on-point with her input thus far.

Outside of the molestation incident, if your description is accurate, the guy sounded like a bit of a "dead-loss". She'd be well rid of him anyway. Near or long-term, I can't see how it would have ended well. She sounds like a wonderful person and there is all to play for. I hope God smiles upon her

And please don't hang about, time is of the essence here.

Godspeed
TV


^{I often post of the need to counsel "aspirationally". If I am chanced I'll post my thinking why on this or the "should I pay for my marriage" thread.}

chaircover: @TV so if you were in this mans shoes, what would you have done?

It hard for me to put myself in his shoes, he is not me. It's difficult for me to put myself in his situation, I am not him.

I simply cannot imagine how the lady in question and I would have gotten that far. I was ruthless. Any hint of mago mago traits or palla palla behaviour and they got frog-marched. If they didn't get it, I got rid of them.

At my most benign, I may have said; "OK she's right,but not ready. I will persevere with her a little and hope she grows in understanding". Even then, I would have kept my eyes peeled and she would have been in danger of losing me. I send 0, but you will show forth first.

For the "aspirational" marriage I desired, the woman I married had to be both right and ready, within a very small margin of error. It took me a long time to understand and to recognise that, and even longer to find her. I waited. God is merciful and kind.

For the record. When I met my wife, I was living in a room you couldn't swing the proverbial cat in. To sleep I had to clear load off the bed. And to get out of the room I had to move things around and gently ease out. It was above a takeaway on a busy road. It was in no way reflective of my means, but I am able to live my beliefs. In the year I lived there, I didn't use the toilet. I went to the gym - how I no go buff . My best friend visited for 5 mins, said "this is only temporary right"? And left. My cousin came and said he wasn't coming back, cos he couldn't let his kids risk the steps or use the loo. Non of my family came to visit me.

I took my WTB there. I saw the startled look in her eyes. She didn't say a word. Later, I challenged her, "won't you comment on where I live?" I asked. "No" she said, "I was surprised, but I know you can do better". If she had wanted to get married on Mars, I would have begged, borrowed or stolen to make it happen. Be the women we long for and we will be the men your hearts desire.

Best
TV

chaircover: Many of the women on this thread understand this issue deeply but the men are just looking at the tip of the matter.

Ah,ah! "Genderise" it and be sure to calumnise the opposite gender? Men lack understanding and are shallow? Not true and certainly not fair.

chaircover: Many people dont seem to understand the deeper meaning of marriage/wedding. We are not talking about a birthday party or house warming party; we are talking about a one off wedding here. This is the foundation of their married lives.

Three things here;
1. Don't seem to understand; huh? That would be men again. Maybe you'd care to enlighten us; What is the deeper meaning of marriage?
2. Yes it is a "one-off",that's why couples should of a necessity be circumspect about the financial aspects, which by the way, are not the essence. Which leads me nicely on to;
3. "Wedding = foundation" of married life?? Could you be more wrong? A wedding is merely the witnessing of the "agreement & commitment" that is. Which is why you can pop along to the registry with two witness and it won't cost more than the admin fee. And neither the essence or foundation are compromised.

Now, we men do understand and appreciate that most women harbour a lifelong dream of a picturesque white wedding. And most men whilst more than happy to go the registry route, will always seek to indulge his bride to some degree,and almost certainly to the best of his ability.

The fact that most women have warped this indulgence into an undeniable right of theirs and an unalienable responsibility of men is not the fault of thick and shallow men. If we are at fault, it's for falling for it!

chaircover: Personally I would rather put all my money into the accommodation issue rather than put 80% down for the wedding. I dont think that many of you understand the real meaning of a wedding and the deeper matters involved and what it really means when you say that you want to marry a woman. There is one wedding but many many more accommodation renewals.

Having identified the "wedding" as no more than an optional/incidental cost to being married,you can see why to "spiritualise" or imbue it with some "mystical" essence is no more than women being sentimental at best and a scam at worst. A cost is a cost, be it for a wedding, housing, school fees or whatever.

And yes we male thickos know that a "significant wedding" can be a signature statement of deep and abiding love and commitment; to the bride and to the world. We realise that it can be seen as a powerful declaration to all; of our intent and will make WTB feel like a princess,if only for a day. But it is only for a day,and not the essence or the foundation. All that is in the asking and the doing, regardless of the scale or scope.

No man should feel any less of a man for not being in a position to have a large scale celebratory wedding. And if a women feels she must have one there is nothing wrong with her and hers funding it to the nth degree. If he can't or won't, she can make her choice. Men, please be men!

chaircover: And as for the 50/50 western world split that many are talking about, how many of you in theory are marrying these women? and why not? why do so many of you still prefer to marry Nigerian women over these women? How many of you talking especially the naija based peeps will accept their wives kicking them out of the house and barring them from seeing the children simply because she has fallen out of love with you or she caught you with another woman? You all want your cakes and eat it.

Debo has already tasked you on this. And quite ably. Whether you realise it or not you are tacitly saying that a man funding a wedding and sundry cultural ceremonials gives him rights. It changes a partnership into an owner/worker deal. It warps a joint stakeholder arrangement into a Oga and worker situation. Is he buying her? Would you take us back to the time when women/wives were mere chattels?

Using erroneous notions to justify tragic and destructive actions ?

Wrong on the foundations, wrong on the essence and wrong on the significance of a man funding a celebratory wedding.

WannaWeds please take note

Regards
TV


^{And for the record, we had the celebratory wedding. But we spent wisely, within our means and with an eye on the future. And I would even concur with those who might suggest that in relative terms we overspent. But it's only money. I love the way my wife looked and glowed on the day. Both days sef - traditional in Lagos and church/reception in London. And yes, she remembers it as her dream day and recalls it starry-eyed even now. I loved "coming for my wife", I loved declaring my intent - to both our families and the world. I loved staking my claim with a statement. But I don't own her or feel I have proprietorial rights. And I would have been perfectly satisfied with a trip to the registry if I did not have the wherewithal. And it hasn't and wouldn't have changed the essence of our marriage one bit. We really do need to get back to the foundations of the marriage covenant, grasp its essence and clear out all these warped notions.}

Every marriage is unique. In cultural context, maturity, financial capability, expectations and aspirations. So even the notion of a “good marriage” is in a sense relative. Having said that, there are absolutes and principles that can underpin and guide. Especially if based on a well-defined worldview. In as much as we reference our own experience – within marriage – about life in general, we should do so with some points in mind;

1. The individual uniqueness mentioned,
2. That our own marriages/situations – however good - are not the benchmarks, and;
3. (IMHO) we should counsel aspirationally, i.e. with regard to “the ideal” (whatever “worldview”) informs that ideal.


My Worldview;
Marriage is meant to be mutually satisfying, sacrificial union. There is a ”wholesome unclothedness”, which one can read as trust and transparency. And a union where everything is pooled and no debilitating notion of “his or hers”. A shared, freely agreed and jointly pursued vision. And yes, there are roles and responsibilities and feel free to see the man as the “main provider” and Head.

My Experience;
When I decided I wanted to wife this woman, I opened up. I shared my hopes for the future and in particular, how I thought we should utilise the little funds I had. Wifey was wary at first, but soon got it and then got on board. Today nothing’s changed a lá banking arrangements, but we both know exactly what we have and where it is. How much comes in and how we are going to utilise it. And regularly review and discuss our financial affairs. Yes it’s probably easier in this regard – especially for the woman to get on board - if the man has and earns more, but situations change. Don’t lose sight of the absolutes and the aspiration.

My View on this case;
I can’t help but wonder, if there was a test prior to marriage, how would you fare?
You willingly cede the financial burden onto your HTB, regardless of his or your means?
You actually have money and you did not offer to pool, make a contribution or even ask that HTB lets you know if you can contribute in any way?
You both consider it your money? But HTB is blind to how much you have or how you utilise it? And you believe you have the right to do that unilaterally?
You have no qualms about your HTB taking out a loan to fund “your wedding”, as opposed to paying for one he can afford, no matter the scale?
With a lifetime together in view, you cannot see beyond the wedding cost?
You had not discussed, given thought or personally made any provision towards your accommodation after the wedding?

Please note, my questions are merely rhetorical, no replies necessary.

Even if I take the point about the tone and approach of your HTB, it in no way ameliorates your ill-advised approach, poor attitude, colossal sense of entitlement and altogether warped thinking.

My Verdict;
Two people who both cannot recognise the other is neither ready, nor right.
Don’t marry – unless you aspire to a facsimile union of deceit, scheming and gamesmanship, with all the potential consequences of that.

Thank you for raising this before you tied the knot, because I am not God and my worldview rarely prescribes divorce.


WannaWeds, please pay heed.

Best
TV

maclatunji: Although the popular wisdom is that third parties should not interfere in a marriage, I think this couple need help. It is obvious that they are not capable of resolving their differences by themselves. OP, find someone you both respect and tell him/her that you and your husband are having a hard time with effective communication between the two of you. Try not to give all of these details to that person. If the person is wise enough, he/she will identify the issues by himself/herself and help you find resolution. I think you also need to be a little bit more patient and should give-in-less to your anger when it arises.

A third party can help, but don't take that step unilaterally. It's risky because;

1. He will probably feel undermined
2. and wonder whether you trust and respect him

TV

chaircover: My sister please pray very hard that you haven't made the wrong choice . . .16 months pere!! 16 months!!!!!!

I'm sure this was well intentioned, but it's after the fact. Prayer would have been profitable prior. If her prayer returns "wrong choice" what then?


TV

Hmmmm. It had to happen - my first shitty post on NL .

Align your dump times with your shower times. Works for me. I also go the gym a lot and love rocking their hot jet showers post working out and offloading. For some reason wifey prefers for me to do my thing there too

Scatalogically yours
TV

I’m not surprised, but pained and appalled by some of the hurt that gets posted here. I love marriage. Everything about it. It has no downside if correctly understood and properly entered into.

Marriage is not an estate to be entered into or taken lightly. For all those yet to, but hoping for, please make every preparation and every effort to get it right.

At the very least, this section should serve as a warning. And if the only counsel you take away is caution, please heed that. I also see invaluable insights for those already married and some succour for those going through within it.

For those seeking to keep onside of the Bible, my reading is, it permits – not necessarily prescribes – divorce for adultery, but only allows re-marriage in the event of death. And if you do believe God, seeking him wholeheartedly before, will profit you more than coming to NL after.


@OP, your situation is a difficult one. I wish you well.


TV

Tirade over. I'm just pained.

I believe the traditional way to include a "married" friend in your bridal train is the "maid of honour" role. But like mission08 has said, I don't see why you can't be a little creative here. The "wedding police" are technically your ushers, who the bride and groom hold sway over anyway !

Have a wonderful and memorable day.

TV

Sagamite:
I will challenge you on this.

Hello, bruv. I am sorry to say: Marriage has never been, by and large, some wonderful institution from time immemorial. It has always been generally faulty. I really don't know what essence of marriage you refer to. The benefits of marriage has historically been detrimental to one party: the woman. From the stone ages to recent history, they had the short end of the stick. Marriage has never been good. Women stuck around because they usually depended on the man financially and for social respect. The marriage of our ancestors and even the generations closer to us is filled with men having extra-marital affairs and offsprings outside marriage, especially those living in big habitats (e.g. cities) and are decently wealthy enough, and the wives accepted it. The unwealthy ones used whores and beat their wives. Majority of the long-term, so-called successful marriages of some recent generation gone-by we tend to point to are not immune from this fact as well. If the woman is of high-society or aristocracy back in the day then there are numerous cases of infidelity as well because they tend to be the beautiful ones and/or less dependent on her husband's finances since they live in circles of men with means that can replace him. Go and read about Roman women for example. Societies tried to use religion to control these but mostly only applied it to the women.

I've touched on the fact that marriage has for many been an historically "abusive arrangement" and mostly by patriarchal/fundamentalist societies. It just means that the "essence" has been ignored/misunderstood for a long time by many.

Sagamite:
Essence of marriage? A lot of women have been miserable in marriage but hang on. Now that women are no more dependent on the man financially or for social respect, we have a relationship culture flux, hence the rise in divorces.

Per my above. The rise of female economical independance, "no-fault" divorce, readily available contraception and laws effectively penalising men in the event of a divorce means that essence is now subject to different pressures.

As is pretty obvious, my worldview is a Christian/Biblical one. 2'000 years ago it was written; "Husbands love your wives and wives respect your husbands". Your portrayal above does not even do what obtained justice. At the time women were little more than "chattel". The Christian concept of marriage was nothing short of transformational. The fact that even many "Christians" don't get it - then or now - does not make it's charge any less revolutionary. There is nothing wrong with the institution of marriage. The problem has always been with men and women.

Sagamite:
So when you refer to the "Essence of Marriage that is forgotten", all I can think of is an obedient, subservient wife sticking to it for better, for worse while the husband ruled at home and shagged his life out outside when he felt like. I have no interest in making anyone miserable for my own happiness.

Your comment here resonates so much with me. I witnessed this all around me growing up. I was very young when I decided that if marriage is essentially a licence for me to inflict myriad abuse on a women, I wanted no part of it. That wouldn't make even make me happy. It took me years to rediscover the essence and embrace it in its fullness.

Whatever men have perpetuated, regardless of what women inflict, understand the essence, find one who understands and grasps your articulation of it and marry. Write your own script.

Sagamite:
The essence of marriage you refer to are fantansies written in Mills and Boons or practiced my a very small minority of pious individuals with fear of Hell. It was never the norm. The muslims just said "Fck it. Man take 4 wives and stop your greediness".

I live it. Enuff said.
I have referenced the source of my worldview.

Sagamite:
This is the real world, not Fantasia.

I don't think you really like reality. You really refuse to realise you have no control over the mentality and decision of others.

What if your partner does not want to discuss and recourse the structures?

What if your partner are not interested in counselling and other remedial measures because they are simply not interested anymore?

Let me guess. You would say you know that would not happen, you have selected carefully after 3 months?

You tend to ignore biology and facts and stick with some populist idealism.

I don't want control. Neither do I want the "false comfort/control" of a prenup.
Train hard, fight easy! The essence had been shared, discussed and embraced beforehand. 2-3 months is an age  !
If we ever have recourse to a 3rd party in our home, I would consider that a disaster and a shame.
We have started as we mean to go on and are both mindful of and dilligent to ensure it gets stronger and sweeter.

I'm living this sir (not in Fantasia either, in south-east London !) and in my joy - and given what I suffered to lay hold of it - I want every able and willing man to experience the same.

Given the pressures we are both very much aware of, it's easy to be cynical, to simply opt out or to think some sort risk mitigation is required.
The way to mitigate risk is at the front-end. Have the right understanding, make yourself the right person, find another right person and do the right thing. Do this and you won't need a pre-nup. Taste marriage in it's essence, and not only will you feel silly for insisting on it, you'll do your damnedest to ensure you never have recourse to it.

Sagamite, I have no doubt you want to get married. I'm "here" if you would like more about specifics or just to share. I wish you all the very best.

God bless
TV

debosky:
Sagamite a pre-nup is different from car insurance or making alternative plans to get to a destination.

You dare question Saga' logic ? Ah!

debosky:
The two latter examples is protecting yourself from external, unknown factors largely out of your control, while a pre-nup involves one party keeping separate what both are vowing to join together - it goes against the basic vows of marriage of 'what is mine is yours'.

The essence of marriage has been lost to many. Without understanding and embracing that - even intuitively - a lot of the value can be lost. It means the benefits are not fully grasped and people are more likely to not commit to it or give up if there are problems.

debosky:
If, however, both parties willingly want a pre-nup, then it is a mutually understood basis for the relationship might be a good thing in my view.

I find the notion counter-intuitive. "I will spend the rest of my life with you and give all that I have. For better, for worse etc". "But oh yeah if it doesn't go right, I won't re-double my efforts and search myself, I'll take my stuff and go"! It's almost like second guessing yourelf before you even guess?

debosky:
Why? Because it removes the fear, suspicion and attempts to hide things from one's partner when problems occur in a relationship. If you know the other person can't cheat you, then you're free to devote yourself fully and be open because they can't take it away from you.

Hmmm, isn't it encouraging the possibility of divorce by bringing it to the fore? By making it a more readily available and clear-cut option when problems come? Divorce should be be a very last resort if at all. Why not discuss and agree recourse to structures, counselling or other remedial measures. Divorce is not a corrective measure, it's a destuctive one. If one feels one is best served by being able to exit a marriage with their worldly goods, quite frankly, they really don't get it and should probably not have been in it in the first place.

Best
TV

Kutey:
Ehrm ,  TV01 remember the phrase: "Never argue with an 1diot , they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience"

No, no, no. "The Sagman" is altogether a great guy, otherwise I wouldn't bother. He just needs a lil' nudge to fully appreciate that the human dynamic  - life even - and particular the marriage relationship is not a business transaction and not optimised  by "control", risk mitigation, algorithmic logic,etc. etc.

The pool of  5% on the male side is to shallow to allow an inherently good one like Sag to not get snapped up . His concerns though are valid, I'm just trying to help address them.

Very shortly Saga is going to stare that fear in the face and get his. Can't wait.

Best
TV

Dude, the 5%ers are the good ones 0!

Sagamite:
You want to play everything in life has an element of faith? Please no try and play that lame stuff with me. Emi lo fe ma fi gba philosophy football? (Na me you wan dey use play philosophy football?) O o mor nkan ti awa ka ni ile iwe agba? (You no know wetin we read for Higher Education?)

If two people decide to go to Manchester from London and have to be there within 6 hours. Note: It takes on average 3 and the half hours for the journey.

One decides that to get there he would jump in his car and drive down. The second decides he would not use his car. Mba! Lai Lai! Petrol cost too much. His plan is to hitch ride from his front door to the destination. Obviously both have an element of faith. The first is hoping not to have an accident, the second is hoping not to have an accident but also hoping he would meet enough good Samaritans within the 6 hour period. You know what? He might actually make it. Are they comparable, which on is a wishful thinker and which one is in control?

Story! which one has an absolute guarantee of getting there at all, let alone within 6 hours? Plus the second chap should have gotten a pre-booked, off-peak train ticket .

However they go - the risks are still present. Getting there late, not getting there at all, or not going anywhere ever again are still risks they both face.

Traffic holdups, accidents, inclement weather, illness en-route, other rogue drivers, corrupt cops, terrorists, ad infinitum.

I am not against mitigating risk and "exerting control", but the best laid plans. Nuff' said.

Sagamite:
This is what I was saying about you not being a logic man earlier. I pointed to your linking of prenup with a woman not being capable of having "sufficient" kids as indicator then.

What has led to, or where has anyone said, signing prenup can make someone care for or commit to you?

I would rather be "irrational" and obtain some control than ignorantly bury my head in the sand and say the law does not apply to my marriage and I know what my wife I knew for only 3 months will do despite biology teaching us of their hormonal vortex that make them change over years and the list of stories of people with similar philosophies being burned.

So what then? Change will surely come - and for both of you. Some control? Institutional and individual interference in your home can be limited. Whilst I believe the law can be limited in its effect now, who knows what they'll be like in even the near future?

I still hold that getting oneself right and finding the right person and then building a solid foundation is the way to go. Immediately you introduce the prenup, you are screaming "I don't trust you". Seeding a suspicious air that will never go away. You are saying "regardless of our vows" I have to look out for myself. Or will you present it as in her best interest? It's no guarantee and it at best weakens the foundation.

No matter how you couch it, your insistence on prenups and the inevitable change by women (for the worse), has an air of cynicism and inevitability about it In which case surely logic should dictate that it's not really viable?

Sagamite:
Secondly, I don't know how signing prenup presupposes that one would constantly be on the edge about divorce in marriage and one is not planning for success of the marriage. That is the kind of junk women come up with to suppress your wish of prenup. [Imitates yeye women] "You must be planning for divorce if you want a prenup". But you will here the same foool say she can't be a FT housewife because she does not want to be left high and dry. When she thinks like that (her best interest), she is not planning for divorce. You sure are a well trained real man. You are not a logical man.

And all that is not practicable in conjunction with prenup. You came to the lame conclusion only when you do not sign prenup can you choose the right one, keep a relationship fresh, cherish your partner and behave right? Those that sign prenup can not do all that as well?

So let me get this right, you prepare for a successful marriage by first preparing for a successful divorce?

Being a full-time mother is as worthy a choice as any. If the numbers work out and the circumstances are condusive, I'd love us to have that choice. Couples should discuss the merits and demerits and contingency around this option - if available - even before marriage.

Don't marry a fool or someone you consider to be one.

Sagamite:
Wow! Na wah for this logic o.

Lets go back to the philosophy 101 fictional tale I gave above so you can get some clarity and strong analogy.

The first takes his car as guarantee and needs to drive safely and avoid an accident, the second is hoping he would talk to the person (or people) that give(s) him a free ride to [all] drive safely and avoid an accident but is also hoping he finds such person/people that would listen.

Who has a better strategy of the 2?

Neither has an absolute guarantee. Both are still subject to chance and extemporaneous factors outside their control.

Sagamite:
You are not a logical man. I am rarely wrong when I make an assertion.
Your Jamb analogy is useless.

If you have been to the same poor educational institutions as the 95%, have access to the same incompetent resources as the 95% and doing exactly the same studying pattern as the 95% are doing, then you are likely to end up like the 95%.

You will have to do something different from the train wreck of the 95% (e.g. go to a top private school where they train you on Jamb) or just be lucky the topics you focused on and studied came out in 75% of questions.

Nothing you have said you have done has proven you are doing something different. As a matter of fact, you are at the worst end of the spectrum based on saying you knew a woman after just ONE date (i.e. like someone in the spectrum going to Jakande Primary school, Jakande Secondary school, Jakande University). I can guarantee you even some women here that love your "real manliness" and enjoy your "chivalry in defending their rights to milk" shuddered and were peeping through the fingers in horror at that statement.

It doesn't necessarily have to be different, just better and more thorough. Apple have competition in every respect, but they go about it that much better.

For the most part, I don't care what the women here think. For what it's worth, I consider most of them 95%ers (I will get away with that because, either 1. They will all consider themselves 5%ers or 2. They will form "even if I'm a 1%er sef, I no send TV !)

True manliness is knowing that both genders and society are ultimately best served by harmonious non-abusive relationships and actively seeking to model, promote and effect them. Regardless of the forces that are arrayed against you.

Jakande tried now !

Sagamite:
My GOD!



This man, you logical reasoning na gba oooooooooooooooo!

My God! Baba mi! Oba lo ke! Olugbala! Baba Jesu! Oga Mohammed! Oba awon oba Ifa!

What the bleep has car insurance got to do with surviving an accident? What has health insurance got to do with surviving disease? 

Fck me lawd! Fck me triple times!

Insurance is suppose to compensate you financially, not prevent you from harm.

Driving around and saying you need no insurance still leaves you susceptible to the same harm but only that that comes with severe financial loss.

You and logic are like oil and water. 

Then don't say Winners do not concern themselves with losing.

They do!

And still plan and prepare for winning.

Lets apply it to the topic here: Sign a prenup and still plan and prepare for a successful marriage. You get the point?

Refer back to philosophy 101 above.

No absolute guarantees. No risk free propositions. No total control. Accept that and work it like it's all or nothing.


If you find someone before the end of the year, summer nuptials in 2013 would certainly be viable.

Best
TV

^{Come, was that you I just saw on Rye lane haggling with one Indian shopkeeper like that over the price of puna yam?}

pro01:
Lol. Classic. When you refuse to have 'confidence in no guarantees', they accuse you of pessimism and negativity. What a laugh.

Like I asked Sagamite, please tell us which human endeavours is backed by guarantee? Reward often necessitates a degree of risk.

If there is an absolute guarantee for a worthy endeavour, you don't need to be optimistic or positive. If there isn't, is there greater benefit in being pessimistic or negative?

Hope is not the sole perogative of people of faith.

Best
TV

Sagamite:
She should find me.

Do you know how fine I am? Do you know what I am worth in the coupling market?

Ah! Progress !
Your high phy-nincial net worth + your high financial net worth just increases your chance of securing a 5%er .

Sagamite:
All what you said does not disprove the fact that you are living on faith/hope/wishful thinking that your wife is right for you and she would not milk you in divorce.

Please tell us what single endeavour does not have an element of faith/hope. We are mere men, with only a modicum of control.

I did what I knew to and had to do. It may have seemed fast, but it was on the back of a large number of other "viewings".  

We recently bought a place. After viewing around 60 properties across a wide area, you get to know what's out there, what prices the market holds and refine your personal requirements. 58 of the places we didn't even discuss. One was beautifully presented, but not quite right. The 60th one was per-fick. Offer on the spot mate! We are not to far from Peckham, once we settle in, we'll host you !

Sagamite:
The only guarantees you have and you know is what you can/would do. You have no guarantee or know what she can/would do. That is more evident by the length of your courtship. I can safely say, you hardly know the person you married. You have no control if she decides to eff you up. Your future is basically in her hands if you live in the West. And there is no guarantee she would be nice if in future she decides she might want something else. That is not to say she might not be the nicest woman on Earth but I would still have a prenup with the nicest woman on Earth.

She doesn't have any more of a gaurantee than l do. My wedding was the culmination of 17 years of preparation and searching.

A prenup cannot make someone care for or commit to you. Can you legislate for human behaviour? Listen there are a ton of things that could go wrong. What guarantee offspring, health, ongoing prosperity or even sufficiency? What about accidents or other mishaps?

Your inordinate obsession with the possible financial implications of a possible divorce is bordering on the irrational. Plan and work towards the good and prosperity of the union. How will you even enjoy it, if you are constantly on edge about a possible divorce?

Sagamite:
I would have more reasonable control by signing a prenup. I strongly believe in risk management especially when I am the one that has something to lose and the other key decision maker has evrything to gain and nothing to lose.

"Control" - over one solitary - and unlikely if you prepare and plan well - aspect? Manage the risk prior - of not being ready or not choosing the right one - or during - of it becoming stale or taking each other for granted of of being unfaithful.

Sagamite:
Majority are miserable or so-so. As I said, men and women have not evolved yet to adapt to the new relationship rebalancing of women being financially independent and sex being blasted at us left, right and centre by the decadent liberals. Relationship culture has not caught up and stabilised with the rapid change and it is currently in a turbulent flux. Divorce and break ups are the order of the day. I don't live in Fantasia, I live in Peckham.

Hence the the "JAMB" analogy. You are responsible for one. Yours!

And you call my post "populist"? This is pure soapbox. With all this, there are still solid and prosperous marriages. In as much as relationships are driven by the prevailing culture, we still have the choice to inculcate and retain right values in ourselves and those we can influence.

Drugs are glamorised, am I a druggie? Prostitution is considered cool, am I a whoremonger. Drink is the "societal smoother", never touched a drop. Take responsibility for your choices and actions. Why follow the orderof the day if you are "a man who dictates"?

1. Not all women - or men sef - are financially independent. Majority simply have greater leverage as couples.
2. Finance, should not really effect the marriage dynamic, find someone who understands that. l did.
3. Society has always being sexually decadent. It's just more pulished and accepted. Some choose not to embrace that. Agqin find someone who does not

Sagamite:
You are living it based on hope, just like most other people. There is no methodology and no guarantees. All you have said you did to get it, including the due diligence, is in no way inspiring, reassuring or protective. Hope might or might not fail you. It is just hope.

I've answered this a number of times. Does car insurance guarantee one will survive a crash? Or health insurance mean one won't catch a terminal disease or illness.

The life of man is a vapour. Everything has a risk of sorts. Mitigate all you like, all you can, but don't let it paralyse you. Will you not eat for fear of food poisoning, or not travel for fear of an accident?

Sagamite:
This is another populist fanciful air that has no logic.

Winners do concern themselves with losing. Stop barging the kind of junk evangelistic pastors throw about, that will not work a fraction of millimetre on me.

Yes, but they still plan and prepare to win. Competitors still do their all and have a true desire to do the best and be the best they can. I am the original anti-"Mog" , please check my posting history Sir

Sagamite:
More of your ecclesiastical platitudes.

Blind = Hope

Religion = Hope

Hope = No guarantees

Confidence in no guarantees = Wishful Thinking.

You are proving me completely right.

Life is hope. Please evidence how you live any aspect of yours on guarantees? Yes we are not ignorant of risk or the wisdom of mitigating it, but do we cease to live for fear of it?
Give us wedding rice jor. And please obtain a guarantee from your caterer. !

Best
TV

Sagamite:
And there was absolutely no time I said one cannot find one woman that is right or marriage is not viable.

So what are you hanging around for? Find her and get viable ?

Sagamite:
Wow!

You did your due diligence in 3-10 months and came to the conclusion you know what your wife would do in 10, 15, 20, 25 years time?

You must be fcking kidding me. And you say you are not living on faith?  You are not surviving on wishful thinking and hope? .

1. More like 2 to be honest . The rest was planning the wedding
2. Who knows tomorrow? Do you know if you'll be here tomorrow, let alone, 5, 10 , 15, 20 or 25 years time.
3. In as much as I could I ensured the commitment and compatibility were there to begin and we'll both continue to strive for it.
4. Whatever you believe, whatever your worldview, it's by faith you believe there'll be a tomorrow. Or what guarantee do you have from day to day?

Sagamite:
And you think because your wife accepted and met your aspirations and you did not force them or con her that guarantees your marriage would be happy and successful?

I am assuming by default you are smart enough to say "No".

Prayed for it, planned for it and will continue to pave the way for it. I don't take it for granted. It will take some work. Not to keep it going, but to keep it sweet.

So maybe I'm just thick, but happily married. Why are you so skeptical? There are happy and succesful marriages everywhere.

Sagamite:
I am sure you are not, subconsciously. But a lot of your arguments have no comprehensive logic and are of the populist genre normally batted around and upheld by those that do not critically evaluate the platitudes the populists through about.

Nope. I am reading from my own script. Critically evaluating and practically applying are two different things. I'm living it. I don't just believe, I have experienced.

Sagamite:
If you live in the West, you are married or want to get married, you have no prenup and you say you are not worried about the effects of divorce despite the realities and stories widely and publicly available, then you are one of the following:

1) Just an individual burying his head in the sand and would not listen to any logic and would rather live in lululand.

2) An individual that approves of the divorce laws and is willing to abide by it.

3) Just purely ignorant.

4) You don't expect to be worth much, so what da fck, she aint gonna have anything to milk.

I am fully aware of the potential consequences of divorce. I also know how to build a strong marriage. Do winners overly concern themselves with losing? For all competitors, it's about preparing and executing, then finishing.

A solid and well constructed marriage is blind to location and mostly oblivious to laws. A prenup goes against the very essence of marriage as I understand it.

In turn;
1. Marriage in my experience is heaven, not lululand !
2. I abide by all laws regardless. Very few of them will ever hinder me living the life I choose.
3. I spent 17 years learning about and preparing for marriage prior, and continue top do so. "Guru Marri-agE"  ?
4. Worth is relative. When we met I was financially further along than my wife - obviously that all changed after I paid for the wedding ! But seriously, I have repeated time and again, money is not the main driver of or the primary consideration when valuing a marriage.

I'll be happy to deliver the sermon on the day !

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Sagamite:
No!

Even when done properly, a woman would still benefit more.

Unions are of more value to a woman that it is to a man.

Both parties would benefit but woman would benefit more. Lets call a spade a spade even if it offends some women that like not to hear the truth.

Furthermore, lack of marriage does not necessarily imply singlehood and celibacy. Companionship and sex can be obtained outside marriage. Not like if I know anything about that, I just heard it through the grapevine.

Done properly, both parties are better off married. Not only them, but their offspring and society at large.

"Singlehood" does not preclude "companionship", it simply means "not married". Celibacy is another kettle of fish and demanded by the worldviews of some. Unlike "innocentee" here, I have had it all ways and reccommend marriage !

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TV, I have to say: You do struggle with logical thought.

lol! true dude, but not at this level.

You are the one postulating the debilitating effect of the law and the numbers of "not fit for purpose" women. I am merely saying no matter how damaging the law, if you can find just the one woman who you can align with, then marriage is still viable and remains the best option.

How can you postulate 100% of women are bad? What kind of logic is that?

If I believed that, I wouldn't be married. I was merely extrapolating your thinking.

For how many months or years did you court before you married your wife?

The actual decision was taken within 3 months after we met - I personally never spent longer than that "viewing". The wedding was 10 months later. I knew she could be the one when I first clapped eyes on her. Just needed to check, consider, consult and confirm.

Yes, you can!

I am from the clan of men that state their ground rules and if you don't accept it you have the liberty to leave. How is that faulty thinking? You have been taught "real men" don't say things women don't want to hear?

I am not a real man. I am ALL man!

I had my aspirations for marriage. My wife both accepted and met them. Neither of us was forced, neither of us was conned. The tone of honesty and transaparent communication was set from day one.

Unilaterally dictating your rules does not mean the marriage will be happy or successful even if you find someonme to accept.

In lieu of you dedicating your life to some worthy humanitarian purpose - and even that does not necessarily preclude marriage - you will prove your manliness by successfully marrying and raising a family !

An agreement that is not legally binding is faith. Faith is wishful thinking as you have no control.

It's trust and I have control over my side.

Your due diligence was done after ONE date.          

Awww! How lovely. What a lovely thing to say. All the women reading this have their hearts melting and a lump in their throats. What a real man! You be "real man" gba.  

My audience is not primarily the women. I'm  not here to build a constituency nor a fanbase. Not for favour or applause. Accolades or awards.

"No divorce. We took vows. I simply can't see it.". Fck me LAWD! Triple fck me LAWD! So those that divorce did not take vows. That is the protection that guarantees you? Mate, you are not a logical person. WISHFUL THINKING! That is what your whole philosophy is based on. You no fit 'show me the practicals'.

You have absolutely no clue what your wife would do 10/15 years from now. You are living on faith. Many like you have lived on such and majority have regretted it in divorce.

Your fear is not divorce, it's the consequences of divorce. I don't share that fear. And I appreciate the fulfilment and blessing within a happy marriage.

My position remains. Marriage is the best option and the  norm. And the way to go if you can find someone who shares your values.  Whatever part the law plays can be kept to a minimum. neither will you ever be able to legally construct a perfect marriage or remove the downside.

You yet have all to play for sir.

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Neither gender can prosper withought proper marriage.

pro01:
Says who tori Olorun?

To clarify, both parties within the marriage will benefit most when it's done properly.

I absolutely accept that marriage is not necessarily for all and one can live a fulfilled life before or without marriage.

Having said that, I do believe marriage is and should remain the norm. Very few should opt for singlehood or celibacy. For mature individuals, there should be just cause for not marrying.