₦airaland Forum

PastorAIO:
Nice try. There have been lots of attempts to square this particular circle. The one that I like the most, even though it got condemned by the church, is that of Apollinarius of Laodicea.

He said something like, The part that is the human soul in man is replaced in Jesus with the Logos. But actually since man's soul is fashioned on the logos, we are just poor images of the Logos. A photocopy, so to speak. It would then follow that Jesus is the pure version of humanity, and our humanity is an inferior humanity to Christ's.

In other words the Logos and Man are essentially and intrinsically the same thing, but Man is a corrupted version.

But that would extend the Hypostatic union to man too. So we too are fully human and fully divine. Only that our humanity and our divinity is in a corrupted form. Interestingly this fits in sweetly with what Paul says about the 'corruptible putting on incorruptibility'.

i hope u are aware of the problems that theory causes, if Christ has not human mind but it was replaced by d logos, then christ isn't really human, that renders the redemption invalid. If the hypostatic union exended to humans then we are Gods by nature and so we cant sin, that renders original sin moot and nullifies salvation history.

It also make passages that say Jesus grew in wisdom sound silly.

But the hypostatic union does no favours for the concept of Original sin. Because if our sinful nature is inherited then how come Jesus did not inherit sinful nature from Mary?

that question has been answered long ago, don scotus wrote some stuff on it. First we must understand what original sin is.

In catholicism we like to talk of sin as a stain in the soul, the stain is washed by the blood of Christ, but in reality original sin or even sin in general isn't a stain as sin isn't a substance.

Actually the effect of original sin is the absence of grace, original sin simply means man is born "outside" of God grace and friendship, God since adam has created souls without sanctifying grace, we are thus outside God's friendship in a manner of speaking and under the dominion of our human/carnal limited nature. That is original sin.

The soul of Christ and his body were at once united to the logos in the womb of mary, he thus was Concieved in grace sin the logos is God.

I see no difficulty between the original sin and the hypostatic union. I also believe you are aware that this arguement may bear little significance for a catholic because we already believe that mary through a singular act of grace was preserved from original sin. She thus couldn't transmit sin to christ. And since original sin is simply an absence of Grace, christ humanity couldn't suffer from it as it it united to the divine logos the eternal source of grace.

Happy birthday MG, happy new year everyone.

dolphinheart:
Sir, the questions are relevant .
I want to know the location of pandanaram so as to comfirm if its in isreal like u said and also know its climate during Dec period.

On the pic issue , we dnt know where that picture is taking yet
Personaly to me, I see shepherds moving sheeps, and I believe they are being moved for a reason not explained by the pics.
The pic ill like to see is shepherds sitting or standing together in the open at night in December in isreal with sheeps looking at both the shepherds and the camera like " are you humans nuts! "

bethlehem had the migdal eder, the sherperds of bethlehem were responsible for providing sheeps for the temple, they move all year round.



"That the Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem, was a settled conviction. Equally so was the belief, that He was to be revealed
from Migdal Eder, the 'tower of the flock.'
This Migdal Eder was not the watchtower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheepground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah [Shek. vii. 4.] leads to the conclusion, that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for Temple-sacrifices, and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. . .The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer, that
these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover — that is, in the month
of February, when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest."

(Alfred Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Book II, Chapter VI, Kindle location 3994).

For those who don't know alfred is a jew.

JMAN05:
If you are wise, you wont disagree with it. But isn't this encyclopedia your official publication? How can your encyclopedia publish what your church doesnt believe? except the disagreement is from you alone.

actually, the "catholic encyclopedia" is not a church document of the catholic church, it thus has no authority, i know you are trying to use the logical fallacy called appeal to authority.

If you want a catholic church publication get ccc.

Horus:
And did your bible talk about snow when he was born?

Give us the name of the chapter

Below is the first picture that you posted

Now right click with your mouse on your own picture and when the white window open just left click with your mouse on search Google for this image. Now you have as a result the original image of Shepherds in Iran

Shepherds moving their sheeps, between Khoy and Pasak-e Sofla, north-western Iran (picture Date january 2008 )

Source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Shepherds_iran.jpg

www.nairaland.com/attachments/1985602_shepherdsiran_jpeg13c7a83102f80e39ccac60140e840ab9

if sherperds can move their sheep in winter in iran, what stop them from moving their sheep in bethlehem? Are you aware iran and isreal are still the same region?

Horus:
The shepherds were outdoors in the fields tending their flocks, which they only did in the summer months

Now your December 25th is simply the Roman Festival of Saturnalia to worship the Roman god Saturn. Dies Natalis Solis Invicti means 'birthday of the unconquered sun' and was held on December 25th (when the Romans thought the Winter Solstice took place) and was the 'birthday' of the Pagan Sun god Mithra.

25th of december is not not saturnalia, saturnalia is between 17th-23rd december, sol invictus and mithra was only moved to 25th only after roman christian began celebrating christmas.

Horus:
No thank! I dont deal with beliefs I deal only with facts. Jesus Was Born In The Summer, just deal with the fact. You are so desperate to try to make me believe that snow can fall in the summer that you are even resorting to weather patterns manipulation. You cannot change the past so you cannot use the HAARP project to change the weather of the past. At the moment you are so busy saying: I dont know what I am talking about that you dont realise that you really dont know what you are talking about.

which silly fact is that?

Your so-called fact that the date of Jesus birth was set in the 15th century?


Are you aware that historic jewish sources clearly say that the migdal eder ie "tower of sheeps" is located in bethlehem and that the sherperds watch their flock all year round and still make their journey to jerusalem to provide sacrificial sheep even in the heavy rain?

Only ignorance will make you say sherpherds from bethlehem only watch in the summer.

Horus:
The shepherds were outdoors in the fields tending their flocks, which they only did in the summer months

Now your December 25th is simply the Roman Festival of Saturnalia to worship the Roman god Saturn. Dies Natalis Solis Invicti means 'birthday of the unconquered sun' and was held on December 25th (when the Romans thought the Winter Solstice took place) and was the 'birthday' of the Pagan Sun god Mithra.

25th of december is not not saturnalia, saturnalia is between 17th-23rd december, sol invictus and mithra was only moved to 25th only after roman christian began celebrating christmas.

JMAN05:
If you are wise, you wont disagree with it. But isn't this encyclopedia your official publication? How can your encyclopedia publish what your church doesnt believe? except the disagreement is from you alone.

horus, was the date of Christ birth set on the 25th of december in the 15th century by a pope who later became an emperor?

Yes or no will do.

PastorKun:
When Jesus was ascending, did he promise us a completed book(bible) or the holy spirit for guidance?

this is the question.

Let me try my hands on this.

PastorAIO:
The question that I want to ask, dear doctor, is this ....

Before Jesus was conceived in Mary, when he was in heaven ...... was he also fully Human then? Or did the Hypostatic, 2 natures thingy only start when he was conceived in Mary.

no, Jesus was had no human nature before the incarnation, the word took flesh in the womb of mary. Though i remember the book of daniel talking about one like the son of man in heaven centuries before the incarnation....that not withstanding i believe Christ took human nature at the incarnation and not before.

because the way you are talking it seems as if you want to redefine the word 'nature'. Nature, from 'natus' in latin, meaning the way you were Born. Nature thus suggests an intrinsic aspect of your being. Apart from the logical difficulty with having 2 natures ( it would be easier if it were 1 nature that manifested in 2 different ways but this matter has already been thrashed out with the Monophysites long time ago), a nature is something that has always being with you from the beginning, therefore Jesus must always have been Human too.

not really, you said nature is from the word 'natus', meaning the way you were BORN, not the way or sequence of existence but the way you were born. Jesus was born human and divine, he thus rightly has two natures. I am aware that is a simplistic way of saying it but i believe it should stick. Since he was born he has had these natures, and from birth onward he will always be both God and man.

When and if we get to heaven we will be "changed", the so-called intrinsic parts of our present condition will be transformed and changed, st paul says what is corruptible will put on incorruptibility....etc. Does that mean our new state is not our nature because we weren't always like that? If we will take on a new state in heaven and that will be our nature then i don't see why Christ can't be human because he previously wasn't. My analogy limps but i believe it will stand.

PastorAIO:
No they haven't, you LIAR! You too dey lie, you dis man. You nor fear to even lie on top God's head. Nothing you cannot lie about. twisting and turning and avoiding questions like a writhing slippery serpent. You head will soon be crushed.

slippery serpent? Lol, he loves to dodge sometimes.

Horus:
The date that you are talking about have nothing to do with Jesus' date of birth, he was born in the summer. You seem to suffer from visual impairment when reading my first post or you are just adding or subtracting anything that you do not like from my first post to dance in and out of the truth. It is You who are the one doing subsequent gymnastics to avoid reading the purpose of my first post. Notice that my first post have a title and the title is: Jesus Was Born In The Summer. (Read it again) Coincidence?, No. And this is the reason why the word "christmas" was never used. My conclusion is that it is obvious that you just behave in an untrustworthy, deceitful, and insincere way.

hahaha, your post started with a lie and you can't even acknoledge that. Now i am wondering why i have been wasting my time trying to get a proud man to correct his erros. You can continue broadcasting your lie that the date of Christs birth was set on the 25th in the 15th, you will be d one looking stupid.

italo:
^^^



How can we believe this story of yours which begins with an obvious lie in bold...and which has the lie as its anchor?

"When a problem arose between Jacob and Esau, Rebekah convinced Isaac to send Jacob to Padamaram for awhile.
"And Isaac sent away Jacob: and he went to Padanaram unto Laban, son of Bethuel
the Syrian, the brother of Rebekah, Jacob's and Esau's mother." (Gn 28: 5)
Jacob stayed there for twenty years tending Laban's cattle. When he left he had an argument with Laban, his father-in-law, to whom he said:
"38 This twenty years have I been with thee; thy ewes and thy she goats have
not cast their young, and the rams of thy flock have I not eaten. 39 That which was
torn of beasts I brought not unto thee; I bare the loss of it; of my hand didst thou
require it, whether stolen by day, or stolen by night. 40 Thus I was; in the day the
drought consumed me, and the frost by night; and my sleep departed from mine eyes."
( Gn 31: 38- 40 )

The bold above is proof that shepherds can stay in the fields with the sheep on cold winter nights in Israel.

And the part of Israel talked about above is colder than Bethlehem where Christ was born.

help me tell am oh....

Horus:
The date that you are talking about have nothing to do with Jesus' date of birth, he was born in the summer. You seem to suffer from visual impairment when reading my first post or you are just adding or subtracting anything that you do not like from my first post to dance in and out of the truth. It is You who are the one doing subsequent gymnastics to avoid reading the purpose of my first post. Notice that my first post have a title and the title is: Jesus Was Born In The Summer. (Read it again) Coincidence?, No. And this is the reason why the word "christmas" was never used. My conclusion is that it is obvious that you just behave in an untrustworthy, deceitful, and insincere way.

hahaha, your post started with a lie and you can't even acknoledge that. Now i am wondering why i have been wasting my time trying to get a proud man to correct his erros. You can continue broadcasting your lie that the date of Christs birth was set on the 25th in the 15th, you will be d one looking stupid.

Horus:
"The pot calling the kettle black" . You are the one who perform mental gymnastics and denials to avoid answering my question. If I said that you cannot find the word CHRISTMAS in my first post, it is not a lie it is an irrefutable fact, so dont try to divert the debate or you will start to make yourself look like a fool. We all can see you are the liar here

Show me where I used the word CHRISTMAS in my first post?

After this question was asked to you more than five times ask yourself why you are still unable to find this word in my first post?.

Your diverting technique dont work so stop wasting time and answer the question

AGAIN, Show me where I used the word CHRISTMAS in my first post?

i do not need to show whether or not you wrote the word "christmas", all i need to show is your post where you claimed that Jesus' date of birth was set on the 25th by a pope in the 15th century. The thread and your subsequent gymnastics is a testament that you erred and that Christ's date of birth was settled at 25 at least a mellinium before the 15 century and at least a melinium before the said pope even born. All you need do is correct yourself.

Have a blessed day.

JMAN05:
Ubenedictus

“The date of December 25 does not correspond to Christ’s birth,” acknowledges the New Catholic Encyclopedia, “but to the feast of the Natalis Solis Invicti, the Roman sun festival at the solstice.”

i already told u before in d other thread, catholic encyclopedia is not an authoritative catholic source, wat is written there is d opinion of a writter which after futher studies i am free to disagree with.

PontiffMaximus:
very funny you disgrace me.
you have google and all the books in the world and you open your lips to gut such rubbish!
here is a few links and some books to polish your mind.
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/council-of-nicaea-concludes
http://googlebooks.com/davincicode
http:// www​.carnaval.com/lent/
http:// www​.dailycatholic.org/councils .htm

before you punish my mind with your lies, please show me which of those links told you that constanine set the date of christmas. I happen to possess a copy of canons of the council of nicea and fixing chrismas date was cerainly not done in nicea. So show me the link where you got the lie from

Horus:
No, I am not religious and I am not christian so this word have no meaning for me, so I did not use it at all. It is you who associate this word with the birth of christ, not me. Now show me where I used the word christmas in my first post?
If you even go to the extend of editing your own previous post to erase your lie this denote that you have too much EGO.
I cannot stand a liar and if you edited your post then this is a proof that you cannot even assume your own disonesty. You have been exposed

i didn't even touch my previous post, why then are you accussing me of lying.

You are the only person in the entire world, who doesn't know christmas is about the birthday of Christ, you are also the only liar i am aware of who claims that the date of Christ's birth was set on the twenty fifth of december in the 15th century and is ready to perform mental gymnastics and denials to extricate himself from his lies without admitting he lied.

Horus:
Why you cannot quote the word christmas that you claim that I used in my first post?. Use quote to show me where, and if you cannot find the word christmas in my first post then you lied. You are dishonest period!. I am still waiting to see the word christmas in my first post. Show me that word or stop claiming that I used a word that you cannot even see in my first post.

you are grasping a straws, you pos reference "the date christ was born" and yet you say you weren't talking about Christmas?

Strawman

First i hope you are aware that you are deviating the thread.

tonybosses:
Go to ur bible and chk out d fruit of the spirit...lol

And also thhere isn't anytn like co-redeemer anywher in my bible...hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha


Me? Misinformed? Can the holy spirit lie?

I read my bible and get fresh revelation my friend I don't read bulletin, and follow man made dogma...thank u.

Also I would be very greatful if u cn clearly point out me where it Wass stated dt mary is a co redeemer..

If being a co redeemer is by participation whhat about Joseph dt play d "earthly" father? Wt about john the baptist? Wt abt the owner of the menger and the women that probably helped mary wen she was in labour?......hhahahahahahahahahahah

You go and confesss to ur priest when u sin on Saturdays, what about when your priest sins... what about when ur pope sins..who does he confess to??

I have a million unbiblical practise that I can point out to u.. but ur surname isn't catholic church so I wuldnt, unless u tell me u re capable

hehehe, i know d gifts of d holyspirit off hand i dont need to go get my bible.


Since you somehow seem to be unaware of scriptures that show that we co operate with God. So i'll give you an assignment, get ur bible and search where s paul says we are coworkers with God.

Wish to say a big thank you to all who wished me well on my birthday. May God accompany you in your time of difficulty. Amen

Horus are you denying the post below where you claimed that the 25th date was fixed by pope gregory as the birth of Jesus Christ in the 15th century

Horus:
Jesus Was Born In The Summer

Sadly, most modern day Christians think that Jesus was born on December 25, a date established by Pope Clement VII (1478-1534 A.D.), a Roman Emperor. He became Pope in November of 1523-1534. With that, it became believable that Jesus was born on December 25, a winter month. But the mere fact that the shepherds were outdoors in the fields tending their flocks, which they only did in the summer months, Jesus son of Mary was in fact, based on the scriptures of Luke 2:8 born in the summer. In Jerusalem during the month of December, it is very cold, and there is no way this child could be born in the cold.

Drksly:
They told em That christ was born in the 25th, and they gave em facts which the op saw and decided to share with us. He is a Catholic and should ve facts to back his bliv. When u search for stuffs on Google, range of answers re given which u choose any dat best suit u. The rabbi told him sheeps can still roam at that time because the weather in Jerusalem is favorable, yet on Google it's really cold at this time (11dc). All comes to one thing that catholics ve facts to back their claim on December 25th as d day christ was born, they also ve facts to back their claim that the Virgin Mary gave birth to only Jesus, they also ve facts to back their claim that Sunday is the right day to worship, they also ve facts to back their claim That their priest shud be celibates. Every one is entitled to bliv Wat he or she chooses bt dnt try to convince sm1 else to bliv with u, cos our bliv is circumstantial. If he Wre a Moselm he wudnt ve bliv in christ anyway. Christ was born, 25th or nt.

you may also google d "migdal eder" they are d sherpherds who kept sheep in bethlehem during d time of Jesus, they were out in d field all year round.

wtfCode:
there's more to this than the history itself.
It might be true or false.
Remember, the 12 months calender wasn't in existence by then.
All this shitz y'all are killin' yourselves on was put down by a man with his writing materials.
Regiously,As far as is not in the bible(birth date),i won't believe anything 'bout christ birth.
Scientifically, based on the weather/climate of when jesus was born, u'll find out it's in october.
That doesn't mean i believe in any of this.
#remember, the highest wisdom of men is foolishness in Gods' eye.

there was a 12 month calender then, it was called d roman calender.

omonnakoda:
There is a problem.

"THIS BOOK" what does this book mean by the time the author of Revelation died there was no "NEW TESTAMENT" in fact the new testament as we know it came into being hundreds of years later so WHICH BOOK was being referred to exactly by the phrase "THIS BOOK" . The bible was not authored by one man in one place. The authors of the New testament never sat in one room to produce "THIS BOOK".


Please do not take my word for it do some research. If anything the creation of the New Testament contravenes this injunction in Revelation. So called Christians need to ask how the Bible came into existence. Whether or not you believe it is not the issue but whenn was it written? How long did it take? Where and when . What was included and what was excluded and most importantly WHO had the FINAL SAY

help me tell am

Maximus85:
Olodo. If John the Baptist is 6months older than Jesus, then I guess he was 6months when he started preaching about Christ.

u should be laughing at ur ignorance, u are d only christian dat isnt aware dat elisabeth was 6 months pregnant at d time Jesus was concieve.
Go and buy a bible and thank me later.

EzeeYFB:
Amos 3:7,we need the prophet to tell us.

Do shepherds watch their flocks in the winter? Its only common sense to tell that 25th aint it

yes my friend, the sherpherds of migdal eder of bethlehem watch their flock all year round even in winter, u can consort historical sources.

PontiffMaximus:
young man, socrates said "the main quality of a wise man, is his ability to accept all thoughts without actually believing them" so dont believe all your pastor said on the pulpit during sermon on 25th dont come here to argue baselessly about it. tomorrow he will stand and tell you that jerusalem is a christian land and you will come here to gut it out. learn to argue to learn son,, so stop insulting people's ideas.
here is an assignment for you: READ ABOUT EMPERROR CONSTANTINE, THE MEETING ORGANISED BY EMPERROR COSTANTINE AT CONSTANTENAPOLE AFTER THE CHRISTIAN-PAGAN WAR. THE EVENTS AT THE MEETING WILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS.

constantine has nothing to do with christmas, keep quiet if u dont know what to say.

Horus:
Why do you lie?, I never mentioned the word xmas in my post
Now we all know that you are a liar

did ur post not claims that christmas started in d 15th century? Are u now accepting that you lied?

luvprince4real:
Ar u sure u ar a christian??

i ask one quesion, just it