₦airaland Forum

hahn:
Care to elaborate?

I believe he means that issues decided upon by d early church is usually done with right reasons and prudent judgement and many modern day christians are ignorant of this fact.

.......

starlingleanets:
Wait till it come upon you. God says I'm the beginning and the End. And the word was God. So i tell u the Bible is complete since The Word was God and God is the beginning and the end. This is kinda higher than u but u will understand in due seasons

so you think d bible is equal to Jesus? Jesus is the Word that is God not d bible.

prinzfavian:
well it will be close to impossible to record every single thing He[Jesus] said and did while He was on earth,but if truly christmas celebration was right,important and necesary it should have been included among the 'things' mentioned in the scriptures that He said and did.

again nowhere does the bible say tha d things not recorded are d unimportant things, that is your own assumption

starlingleanets:
"If all Jesus has done was to be written the world could not contain them all" Is that what u have in mind to quote? Those words of Jesus not written by the Four Gospels(Matthew,Luke,Mark nd John) have been supplied by the Holy Spirit in the epistles up to Revelation where He says "If you remove any word from this book of prophecy(the Bible) God will remove ur name from the Book of Life nd if u add to it God will add to ur life all the plague describe in this book of prophecy(the Bible). The Holy Spirit knows one day you will out of ignorance pick out that vs in John so He supply the Apostles with deep knowledge in the mystery of God.T
So Bro if u wanna go ahead and add to d Bible u can do so i'm not stopping u.

no where does the bible say that thing Jesus said dat are not in d gospels are made up for in the epistle, lastly the curses found in revelation were used by john for d book of rev alone not d whole bible.

vooks:
Paste your sources. And I don't speak stupid pidgin

[

since you would like to read my sources, go to a good library around you and get this books.

Happy reading!
[i] Magdeburgenses, Cent. 2. c. 6.
Hospinian, De origine Festorum
Chirstianorum.


these can be found online.

[ii] Saint Hippolytus of
Rome, Commentary on Daniel.


[iii] Saint Augustine, De trinitate, 4, 5.

aaronson:
read and study posts before you pep your step on incorrect conclusion...what was written was pope julius the 1st and not the first pope of the catholic...Simple ENGLISH

my mistake, i didn't read ur post well.

that not withstanding ur post is still incorrect the christmas date predates pope Julius, i believe u would have known this if you reseached more on the issue.
the link below can trace the date to at least 115, dat certainly predate pope Julius.



www.nairaland.com/2060260/yes-christ-really-born-december#29171687

Maamin:
.

Nooo..the gregorian calendar is not a determinant of knowing if the date was 25th or not, but the hebrew luni/solar calendar..and we concern with the birth of christ not the conception of john the baptist.

jesus was not born in d tishri month, it is John who d bible ref as been born in dat month, john is 6 months older dan Jesus, you can do d calculations

starlingleanets:
Penticost has been b4 the New Testament. Yes angels sang but the Angel that gives the sheperd the news did not told them to celebrate it nd moreover Christ never celebrate Christmas and if He does kindly show me where in the Scripture. On the night of departure of Christ Jesus He gave only one command "This is my body which is given for you. Do this in my rememberance" no issue of Christmas but only the Holy communion and again After His ressurection He command "Go yee into the world" still no christmas. Throughout the epistles no christmas but the Holy communion. Its disheartened to see Christains blinded by devil.

do u believe every thing Jesus said and did is in d bible?

aaronson:
That guy above me nailed it....and that babe who wrote march is basically assumption by some scholars,august is way out of it but the TRUTH is no jesus was born...pope Julius the first of the catholic church came up with the december 25th fairy tale and martin luther king dad came up with the Xmas tree while,British successful business men came up with annual carnival which is now christmas carol,I spend at least 2hours everyday studying to know all of these.

pope julius is no d first catholic pope, do some research

Maamin:
Jesus was not born on Dec.25th...he was born in the month of Tishri in the hebrew calendar which will be around september 11th to be precise in the gregorian calendar we have today. on the 4th B.C

Tishri is probably d concepTion day of John d forerunner no Jesus, 4 BC may very well be correcT, d monk who designed our calender may have made a misTake and moved abouT 3years. D previous pope, pope ben 16 said sunTin similar
www.nairaland.com/2060260/yes-christ-really-born-december#29171687

In about A.D. 400, Saint Augustine also noted how the schismatic Donatists celebrated December 25 as the birth of Christ, but that the schismatics refused to celebrate Epiphany on January 6, since they regarded Epiphany as a new feast without a basis in Apostolic Tradition. The Donatist schism
originated in A.D. 311 which may
indicate that the Latin Church was
celebrating a December 25 Christmas (but not a January 6 Epiphany) before A.D. 311. Whichever is the case, the
liturgical celebration of Christ’s birth was commemorated in Rome on December 25 long before Christianity became
legalized and long before our earliest record of a pagan feast for the birthday of the Unconquered Sun. For these reasons, it is reasonable and right to hold that Christ was born on December
25 around 1 B.C. and that he died and rose again in March around A.D. 33.

Now ask yourself: Would the Blessed Virgin Mary ever forget the birth of her Son Jesus Christ who was conceived without human seed, proclaimed by angels, born in a miraculous way, and visited by Magi? She knew from the moment of His incarnation in her stainless womb that He was the Son of God and Messiah. Would she ever forget
that day?

Next, ask yourself: Would the Apostles be interested in hearing Mary tell the story?
Of course they would. Do you think the holy Apostle who wrote, “And the Word was made flesh,” was not interested in the minute details of His birth? Even when we walk around with our kids son, people always ask “How
old is he?” or “When was he born?”
Don’t you think people asked this
question of Mary?
So the exact birth date (December 25) and the time (midnight) would have been known in the first century.
Moreover, the Apostles would have asked about it and would have, no doubt, commemorated the blessed event that both Saint Matthew and Saint Luke chronicle for us. In summary, it is completely reasonable to state that the early Christians both knew and commemorated the birth of Christ. Their source would have been His Immaculate Mother.


Further testimony reveals that the
Church Fathers claimed December 25 as the Birthday of Christ prior to the conversion of Constantine and the Roman Empire. The earliest record of this is that Pope Saint Telesphorus (reigned A.D. 126-137) instituted the tradition of Midnight Mass on Christmas
Eve. Although the Liber Pontificalis does not give us the date of Christmas, it assumes that the Pope was already celebrating Christmas and that a Mass at
midnight was added. During this time, we also read the following words of Theophilus (A.D. 115-181), Catholic bishop of Caesarea in Palestine: “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our
Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.”[vi]
Shortly thereafter in the second century, Saint Hippolytus (A.D. 170-240) wrote in passing that the birth of Christ occurred
on December 25:
"The First Advent of our Lord in the flesh occurred when He was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, a Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, which is five thousand and five hundred years from Adam. He suffered in the thirty-third year, March 25th, Friday, the eighteenth
year of Tiberius Caesar, while Rufus and Roubellion were Consuls.
Also note in the quote above the special significance of March 25, which marks the death of Christ (March 25 was assumed to corresponded to the Hebrew month Nisan 14 – the traditional
date of crucifixion). Christ, as the
perfect man, was believed to have been conceived and died on the same day— March 25. In his Chronicon, Saint Hippolytus states that the earth was created on March 25, 5500 B.C. Thus,
March 25 was identified by the Church Fathers as the Creation date of the universe, as the date of the Annunciation and Incarnation of Christ, and also as the date of the Death of
Christ our Savior.

In the Syrian Church, March 25 or the Feast of the Annunciation was seen as one of the most important feasts of the entire year. It denoted the day that God took up his abode in the womb of the Virgin. In fact, if the Annunciation and Good Friday came into conflict on the calendar, the Annunciation trumped it, so important was the day in Syrian tradition. It goes without saying that the Syrian Church preserved some of the most ancient Christian traditions and had a sweet and profound devotion for the Incarnation of Christ.

Now then, March 25 was enshrined in the early Christian tradition, and from this date it is easy to discern the date of Christ’s birth. March 25 (Christ conceived
by the Holy Ghost) plus nine months brings us to December 25 (the birth of Christ at Bethlehem).
Saint Augustine confirms this tradition of March 25 as the Messianic conception and December 25 as His birth:
"For Christ is believed to have been conceived on the 25th of March, upon which day also he suffered; so the womb of the Virgin, in which he was conceived, where no one of mortals was begotten, corresponds to the new grave in which he was buried, wherein was never man laid, neither before him nor since. But he was born, according to tradition, upon December the 25th."

Objection 3: Christ could not have been born in December since Saint Luke describes shepherds herding in the neighboring fields of Bethlehem.
Shepherds do not herd during the
winter. Thus, Christ was not born in winter.


Reply to Objection 3: Recall that Palestine is not England, Russia, or Alaska. Bethlehem is situated at the latitude of 31.7. Dallas, Texas has the latitude of 32.8, and it’s still rather comfortable outside in December. As the great Cornelius a Lapide remarks during his lifetime, one could still see shepherds and sheep in the fields of Italy during late December, and Italy is at higher latitude than Bethlehem.


Now we move on to establishing the birthday of Christ from Sacred Scripture in two steps. The first step is to use Scripture to determine the birthday of Saint John the Baptist. The next step is
using Saint John the Baptist’s birthday as the key for finding Christ’s birthday. We can discover that Christ was born in late
December by observing first the time of year in which Saint Luke describes Saint Zacharias in the temple. This provides us with the approximate conception date
of Saint John the Baptist. From there we can follow the chronology that Saint Luke gives, and that lands us at the end of December.

Saint Luke reports that Zacharias served in the “course of Abias” (Lk 1:5) which Scripture records as the eighth course among the twenty-four priestly courses (Neh 12:17). Each shift of priests served one week in the temple for two times
each year. The course of Abias served during the eighth week and the thirty-second week in the annual cycle.
However, when did the cycle of
courses begin?
Josef Heinrich Friedlieb has convincingly established that the first priestly course of Jojarib was on duty during the destruction of Jerusalem on the ninth day of the Jewish month of Av. Thus the priestly course of Jojarib was on
duty during the second week of Av.
Consequently, the priestly course of Abias (the course of Saint Zacharias) was undoubtedly serving during the second week of the Jewish month of Tishri—the
very week of the Day of Atonement on the tenth day of Tishri. In our calendar, the Day of Atonement would land anywhere from September 22 to October 8.
Zacharias and Elizabeth conceived John the Baptist immediately after Zacharias served his course. This entails that Saint John the Baptist would have been conceived somewhere around the end
of September, placing John’s birth at the end of June, confirming the Catholic Church’s celebration of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24.
Immediately after this entry into the temple and message of the Archangel Gabriel, Zacharias and Elizabeth conceive John the Baptist. Allowing for forty weeks of gestation, this places the birth
of John the Baptist at the end of June—once again confirming the Catholic date for the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on June 24.

The rest of the dating is rather simple.
We read that just after the Virgin Mary conceived Christ, she went
to visit her cousin Elizabeth who was six months pregnant with John the Baptist.
This means that John the Baptist was six months older that our Lord Jesus Christ (Lk 1:24-27, 36). If you add six months to June 24 you get December 24-25 as the birthday of Christ. Then, if you subtract nine months from December 25 you get that the Annunciation was March 25. All the dates match up perfectly. So then, if John the Baptist was
conceived shortly after the Jewish Day of the Atonement, then the traditional Catholic dates are essentially correct. The birth of Christ would be about or on December 25.


Sacred Tradition also confirms December 25 as the birthday of the Son of God. The source of this ancient tradition is the Blessed Virgin Mary herself. Ask any
mother about the birth of her children. She will not only give you the date of the birth, but she will be able to rattle off the time, the location, the weather, the weight of the baby, the length of the baby, and a number of other details.

The Catholic Church, from at least the second century, has claimed that Christ was born on December 25. However, it is commonly alleged that our Lord Jesus Christ was not born on December 25.
For the sake of simplicity, let us set out the usual objections to the date of December 25 and counter each of them.


Objection 1: December 25 was chosen in order to replace the pagan Roman festival of Saturnalia. Saturnalia was a popular winter festival and so the
Catholic Church prudently substituted Christmas in its place.


Reply to Objection 1: Saturnalia
commemorated the winter solstice. Yet the winter solstice falls on December 22.
It is true that Saturnalia celebrations began as early as December 17 and extended till December 23. Still, the dates don’t match up.


Objection 2: December 25 was chosen to replace the pagan Roman holiday Natalis Solis Invicti which means “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun.”


Reply to Objection 2: Let us examine first the cult of the Unconquered Sun. The Emperor Aurelian introduced the cult of the Sol Invictus or Unconquered Sun to Rome in A.D. 274. Aurelian found political traction with this cult, because his own name Aurelian derives from the Latin word aurora denoting “sunrise.”
Coins reveal that Emperor Aurelian called himself the Pontifex Solis or Pontiff of the Sun. Thus, Aurelian simply accommodated a generic solar cult and identified his name with it at the end of the third century.
Most importantly, there is no historical record for a celebration Natalis Sol Invictus on December 25 prior to A.D. 354. Within an illuminated manuscript for the year A.D. 354, there is an entry
for December 25 reading “N INVICTI CM Bleep.” Here N means “nativity.” INVICTI means “of the Unconquered.” CM signifies “circenses missus” or “games
ordered.” The Roman numeral Bleep
equals thirty. Thus, the inscription
means that thirty games were order for the nativity of the Unconquered for December 25th. Note that the word “sun” is not present. Moreover, the very same codex also lists “natus Christus in
Betleem Iudeae” for the day of December 25. The phrase is translated as “birth of Christ in Bethlehem of Judea.”
The date of December 25th only became the “Birthday of the Unconquered Sun” under the Emperor Julian the Apostate.
Julian the Apostate had been a Christian but who had apostatized and returned to Roman paganism. History reveals that it was the hateful former Christian Emperor that erected a pagan holiday on
December 25. Think about that for a moment. What was he trying to replace?
These historical facts reveal that the Unconquered Sun was not likely a popular deity in the Roman Empire. The Roman people did not need to be weaned off of a so-called ancient holiday. Moreover, the tradition of a
December 25th celebration does not find a place on the Roman calendar until after the Christianization of Rome. The
“Birthday of the Unconquered Sun” holiday was scarcely traditional and hardly popular. Saturnalia (mentioned above) was much more popular, traditional, and fun. It seems, rather, that Julian the Apostate had attempted to
introduce a pagan holiday in order to replace the Christian one!

jesuslovesme123:
I have noticed a subtle (or maybe not-so-subtle) attempt by some organisations to replace 'Happy Christmas' with 'Happy Holidays'.

And I know why. We all know why. They are scared of The Truth.

But they are wasting their time, because Christ can never be removed from the world. He owns and rules the world and all of mankind.

A Happy Christmas to you all!

i wish u d same

OLAADEGBU:
Who is d manus? Read the link and stop asking irrelevant questions.

so u are hiding? Oya defend ur link!

adsonstone:
The Church is the assembly of saints.

The Church doesn't hold on to contradictory doctrines neither does the Church teach differently from what the Apostles taught as revealed in the epistles.

u can discus dis wih, image (s)he disagrees

Image123:
The gospel is not full of doctrines, the gospel is simply the good news. The good news that gets us saved and free as it were.

Joh 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The above is an instance where Jesus was telling people that believed on Him about further truth. Believing is basic and is the gospel. Whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life, like the thief on the cross. Anyone can believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved, that is the gospel. Doctrines are further knowledge and instructions, they are not requirements for eternal life. The thief on the cross probably knew little or no doctrine but he got the gospel. His views on hell and heaven, tithes and baptism may be different and less than or more(superior to) mine. i don't really care, but he is my brother nonetheless, and i expect to see him in paradise. This is what i'm talking about, i'm not saying false doctrine or false teaching is okay, i'm saying it is not a major requirement to belong to Jesus or the Body of Christ(the Church).
In the same chapter i quoted, Jesus Christ said He did not condemn a woman that was caught in adultery. It doesn't mean He supports adultery. In a similar vein, God wants all believers to grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth(Jesus). Not everybody has that same knowledge or sees things the same way. That would happen, but it is yet to happen.

hehee, my keyboard is bad, i'll reply la'er

JMAN05:
Providing interesting insights into this matter, New York Newsday of December 22, 1992, quoted John Mosley, who wrote the book The Christmas Star: “‘The early church leaders didn’t celebrate Christmas in December specifically to celebrate the birth of Christ,’ [Mosley] said. ‘It was their way of dealing with the winter solstice,’ the turning point of winter, when the sun stops its drift to the south and heads north again, bringing new light.

“Evidence for this is seen in the symbols of Christmas, Mosley said. Most obvious is the use of green plants, which symbolize life in a time of darkness and cold. ‘The most obvious green plant is the Christmas tree,’ he said. ‘And the northern Europeans celebrated the solstice in the forest; they worshiped trees. So the Christmas tree is really a throwback to tree worship in prehistoric times.’

“Also, Mosley said, ‘What do you put on the trees? Lights. Light recalls the Sun and symbolizes the Sun. It’s for the rebirth of the Sun and the return of light after the solstice. The main things involved in solstice celebrations everywhere are light and green plants.

“Dec. 25, he added, ‘was also the original date of the winter solstice, and many of the things we do now, and which we think are relatively modern Christmas customs, really trace their origins to the solstice celebrations.”

When we give or receive Christmas gifts, and hang green wreaths in our homes and Churches, how many of us know that we are probably observing pagan customs?" - The Externals of the Catholic Church.

dis issues arise when pipo presume abou d early church leaders and refuse reading deir works

vooks:
You can't name your sources. How pathetic. That's shamanism not scholarly efforts

clearly u are blind, did i no ref d libera and d commenary on daniel?

Rich4god:
lol...
Dont think there will be a disappearance/separation of my zing as long as this setting is concerend...
So you plan might as well waith till the next comet hits the earth... :-D

wha God has joined, may no man ...

OLAADEGBU:
Are you saying "Father" means the same thing as "Pope"?

yes my dear,

vooks:
Catholic Encyclopaedia told me that nonsense

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

thanks be to God new advent catholic encyclopedia is not an authoritative source for doctrines or practices.

It is sometime prone to ignoring patrisic evidence or dismissing them outright.

First of all, that encyclopedia mention origen as source forgetting that origen was condemned severally by his bishops for holding heretic views and embracing platonic ideas that are not in line with christian doctrines and pronuced anathema in the council of constantinople.

It forgets that d easiest way to know d feast celebrated in rome is to check d pontifical libera, and that in 115 it is recorded that pope telesphorus added dat midnight mass should be celebrated before morning christmas mass. It dismisses the fact that all d manuscript of commentary of daniels by hyppoletus clearly shows that christmas was celebrated in rome between 160 and 205, so just 15yrs after d death of John d apostle we have proof dat christmas had already been celebrated in rome long before.

vooks:
They never celebrated Christmas and nobody did for another 300 years since pentecost.
So Christmas is not one of those traditions paul was writing about.
It means the Christians for the first three hundred years did not know what is 'right'

who told you dat nonesense, hoppolytus record that christmas is celebrated years before 160 AD. So my dear go back and research.

I believe this will officially pu an end to ecumenism initiative between d anglican and orthodox church and between the anglican and catholic church.


The rifts are growing

Thank you mr Jonathan for keeping the country safe and secure.

tonybosses:
Contradiction!....

what contradiction are you talking about, abi ur bible doesn't say all generation will call her blessed?

Let me hit u wt d truth, it might be hard to swallow but if u read ur bible well enough u wuld catch this.

On the last day, what God would judge is ur manifestation of the the fruit of the spirit that is what would determine our entering heaven or not speaking in tongues, not learning Latin nor praying the rosary (There are fifty of these recitations to Mary and only ten to the Heavenly Father.)

is that not the same as obedience to d word of God, aren't d fruit of the spirit in line with the word of God?


Or you think u will disobey the word of God and still end up in heaven?

Now ask ur sef this, "all generation shall call u blessed" is that a command for u to asking her to intercede?? Placing her as a co redeemer beside Jesus?

The Catholic Church refers to Mary as a co-redemptrix, which means a redeemer alongside Jesus Christ. This is completely unbiblical. As I explain,we are redeemed only through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on Calvary, not through any other.

you have been misinformed. First and foremost mary is not call Co redemptorist in the sense dat she redeemed d world "with" Jesus, catholicism doesn't teach dat. Instead we teach that she is co redeemptrix becos she participated in our redemption "under" Jesus by giving birth to d redeemer.

All around the world there are supposed appearances of Mary. The message is always about coming destruction and that people need to pray the rosary daily or they will perish. Devotion to Mary is emphasized in these messages.

repentance is also emphasized in those messages, but u didn't see that probably becos u are baised.

Do you know that there was a place in the bible there was a placw One owomen in the crowd raised her voice and said to Jesus "Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed"

Guessed Jesus' reply?

"blessed is he who hears d word of God and kip it"?