₦airaland Forum

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DMainMan: U were never a Muslim but an Hypocrite. Hypocrites are worse than unbelievers.

Again OP, i had to like your post. In it you reminded me of another typical trait of traditional muslims: "Labelling others as hypocrites or infidels when their fallacies are brought to light". When ever they can't shove down their beliefs down one 's throat, they resort to verbal of physical attack. This, you have just done inspite the fact that i supplied verses of Qur'an to support my posts. But am not offended, i couldn't have expected any less. I should be grateful that my posts weren't deleted.

And me, a hypocrite? For what? For not agreeing that Muhammad had intercourse with a nine years old and concubines?, for not believing that God has limbs like you and i or for not believing that women are inferior to men? Why don't you, DMainMan, give your six year old daughter to a 54 years old man in a marriage, to have intercourse with her 3yrs later? Why don't you keep a harem of wives and concubines? Pls try do these. Try them before you call anyone a hypocrite without proof.

usermane: Peace OP, i did like your post because it further inform me of how biase both muslims and xtians can be, to justify their beliefs. I don't believe traditional muslims today are any different from the christians they derive pleasure from criticizing. It is simple, they both follow teachings of men that are unathorized by God in the scriptures(Mark 7:6-13, Qur'an 6:114, 10:35-37, 42:21). I left traditional Islam some months ago. I 'll tell you some of the reasons.

I can't believe apart from God, a messenger,Priest or cleric can command me to adopt other teachings not found in the book of God. That is idolatry(9:31, 18:102). Neither can i take even a messenger as my guide or intercessor, again that is idolatry( Qur'an 2:48, 10:35, 3:79). Because the messengers of God did not say: "follow me", but said "follow only the scripture/message, follow only God".


I can't believe that Muhammad ascended heaven and dialogued face to face with God, can't believe that God has a leg or has five fingers as today muslims preach from Sahih Bukhari. This is blasphemy, no better than trinity doctrine(Qur'an 6:103).

To be finished later.

I can't recite the Scripture like an arabic hymn book, day and night without understanding or pondering on the verses and believe that am getting rewarded for that(38:28-29). This is a joke. I 'd rather read ten verses in the language that i understand than read 286 verses in a language i don't. I 'd rather learn the Qur'an utilising my thinking faculty than become a robot and blindly follow every tafsir the priest and clerics give.

I cannot call or invoke any name besides God(not even Muhammad 's) in my shahadah(testimony of oneness of God), in my adhan, iqamat or tashahood of salat(Qur'an 3:18, 20:14, 39:3, 39:45). Islam is dedicated to God alone, not God plus Messenger plus Messenger 's family.

I cannot, like traditional Muslims believe in amputating a theif 's hand, stoning adulterers to death or killing an apostate(Qur'an 7:28-29, 5:38, 12:31,50, 24:2, 2:256). A righteous person hardly accept these evil practices because he is willing to think and not just swallow dogmas(Qur'an 17:36). Also every religion preach cleanliness, even atheism hence cleaning oneself after toilet and other personal hygiene did not originate from Islam and should therefore not be held as having anything to do with salvation. First,we must clean our hearts and automatically our bodies will be glittering too.

Lastly, i cannot believe a traditional muslim that insults the messengers of God. With their hadith books, these muslims believe Muhammad had intercourse with a 9 yrs old, kept concubines and used to have intercourse with them all in a single night, killed a poetess for criticizing him. They believed that Abraham first son was born by a concubine and Solomon had 300 wives and 700 concubines. They believed that Moses blamed Adam for the first sin too.


Finally i cannot accept that women are in the same category with donkey, pig or dog and should not be allowed to pass infront of a man praying, else his prayer is nullified. I don't believe that a woman must instantly respond to her husband sexual need at any cost, even while she is ridding on a donkey. Neither can i believe any woman 's testimony is half of man 's or believe that women are deficient in religion and intellect. I cannot have women covered from head to toe in black sacks dripping on the soil as they walk in the scorching sun, all in the name of modesty. God has nothing to do with these.

Peace!

DMainMan: IF I ACCEPT JESUS AS MY LORD AND
SAVIOUR...

A neighbouring brother of mine keep pestering me to accept Jesus as my Lord and saviour. We're very close, and he knows me very well. I only asked him few
questions viz.

If I should follow your faith, then:

I should stoop so low and depart my
gracious and glorious way of Life?

To drop my belief that God is One and
agree He is 3?

To stop prostrating and bowing to my
creator?

To stop fasting in the holy month of
Ramadan?

To believe God died?

To stop saying "peace be upon you" as my way of greeting?

To stop reciting the Glorious Quran?

To learn how to clap, sing and dance
instead of standing, bowing and
prostrating in Night Prayers?

To begin to shake hands, hug, peck and
possibly kiss opposite sex and say my
faith is in the hearts?

To begin drinking alcohol and say only
excess is bad?

To begin eating pork and say only the
heart is defiled?

To engage in interest/usury and say nothing is bad?

To urinate without cleaning up and say
only spirit needs to be purified?

To defeacate and use tissue papper to rub anus and move on with life?

To mingle freely with women in a free-
for-all dance and call it praise and
worship?

To see live breast and indecent dressings
in the church and say we are living by his
grace?

To give 10% of my income to who needs
a Jet to fly, instead of giving zakat to the
needy/poor?

To accuse all the Noble prophets of God
of fornication, Robbery, incest, Alcoholism, Rape, arson, suicide, genocide, infanticide, stealing, dark Magic etc. as seen in stories of d bible?

How could I quit light for darkness?

At the end, I told him "I'd rather be a
slave&servant of Allah (swt) my creator,
than to slave for a man like paul who founded Christianity".

Islam is a way of life, more than religion
or belief.

Yah Allah! You created me, and in your
Hand is My soul, Please Let me and my
brothers&sisters in Islam die as Muslims,
forgive and pardon us, and admit us into
Jannatl Firdaos. We shall never worship
none but You.

ISLAM IS THE GREATEST BLESSING I SAY!

Barka Jumah guys. For those thinking today is still Thursday, in Islam, after sunset, the next day begins.

Peace OP, i did like your post because it further inform me of how biase both muslims and xtians can be, to justify their beliefs. I don't believe traditional muslims today are any different from the christians they derive pleasure from criticizing. It is simple, they both follow teachings of men that are unathorized by God in the scriptures(Mark 7:6-13, Qur'an 6:114, 10:35-37, 42:21). I left traditional Islam some months ago. I 'll tell you some of the reasons.

I can't believe apart from God, a messenger,Priest or cleric can command me to adopt other teachings not found in the book of God. That is idolatry(9:31, 18:102). Neither can i take even a messenger as my guide or intercessor, again that is idolatry( Qur'an 2:48, 10:35, 3:79). Because the messengers of God did not say: "follow me", but said "follow only the scripture/message, follow only God".


I can't believe that Muhammad ascended heaven and dialogued face to face with God, can't believe that God has a leg or has five fingers as today muslims preach from Sahih Bukhari. This is blasphemy, no better than trinity doctrine(Qur'an 6:103).

To be finished later.

When it comes to this issue of LOVE, am kind of new, but atleast i can contribute for fellow 's benefit.

To fall for an age-mate, you must be the type of guy who apart from love and support, want nothing else from a partner. You don't expect a wife of your age to worship you or submit to you like a wife of ten years younger. Mutual respect for each other is the ideal requirement for both partners. Once you desire nothing more than love, commitment and appreciation from her and she is willing to deliver, you 'll be fine. Just endeavor to reciprocate too.

On the darker side, if you desire a malleable or submissive wife who will shut up and let you be the dictator like most traditional men, then stay away from her Mr. OP. It is clear you two are incompatible, as i believe only a lady who want a modern, tolerant and negotiating partner will marry her age-mate.

byvan: A girl like you shouldn't beg for love,its heartbreaking .what ll be ll be,don't ever beg for love,its an unattractive quality.Alpha males don't fall for women who beg for their love.

Woman, which school of thought do you subscribe to? First, she aint begging for love. She is being plain and generous by not hidding her feelings and making him feel loved. Won't you love it if a guy did the same for you?

And Alpha male, they come in different shapes and size. So, know this: Some of them would rather have a lady that is willing to make the first move over those who will subject him to a marathon chase. Different strokes for different folks.

Same old story. Will you girls ever get assertive and pursue your want or you 'll let the traditional society continue to dictate for you?

0P, there r a lot of things that could stop him from asking you.
He could already be with someone. He may not sense your flirting and assume you prefer someone else. He may be shy and want to take it gradual till he discover you really like him. Note, a shy guy could take a lengthy period to make figure things out and make a move. Or he just sees you as a friend. Anyway, u can never be sure, unless you ask him.

Too bad. A quality thread,starting with a good op, but hijacked by atheists and pagan.

Thus far, i have leant in religion section that:

1. "FAITH", a word constantly used by muslims and christians is nothing but an euphemism for "following the bandwagon", be it the largest, loudest or most colourful bandwagon. If you ask the 99% of Muslims or Christians to give you evidence for their beliefs, you 'll notice that they don't have. Dogmas, dogmas and dogmas is what they recite to you.

2. Majority of Muslims and Christians do not follow their scriptures, even the most religious minded among them. They reject God 's revealations,twist God 's verses to suit their agendas,confound truth with falsehood, repelling others from the path of God. I have observed this very much especially with Muslims because they live around me. And my experience in Islam for muslim section is a confirmation.

3. Majority of Muslims and Christains are intollerant of and cannot avoid double standard. Again, personally i have had a first hand experience of this in Islam for Muslim section, where they keep banning and deleting posts when their fallacies are exposed. They cannot endure people who reject dogmas for empirical evidence, they cannot endure people that think. They want everyone to follow the herd without questioning.
And this is contrary to what God teaches us(John 8:32, Qur'an 17:36).

4. The whole Section is occupied with fanatics and extremists who have turn the section to "we vs them". Such people have a repulsive attitude of one upmanship and holier than thou.
For instance, the existence of a separate section for Muslims and the warning notice there for posters gives a bad impression about the muslims. Its like telling others, "hey, we r bigger than sharing a section you, we don't wan't to have anything to do with you, this is our section, not yours and we can do what pleases us. Stay away from here and let us be".

holypower: ANSWERING A MUSLIM CLERIC

muslim:u said trinity exist is'nt this a
blasphemy?

Christian:look at the sun,how many component does it have?


Muslim:two christian:good,it has light and heat,are they not one thing?what do u call it.


Muslim:sun christian:u see that is trinity,we dont mean different individual.


Muslim:hmmmm.ok i agree,what about christ death?


Christian:i dont get u muslim:u said christ died for humanity.


Christian:yes


muslim:which means everybody can commit sin since jesus has washed away all sins,nobody will be held for wat he/she does. Christiam:ok let say food is brought here for
everybody to come and collect and u refuse to come will the food go and meet u?


Muslim:no


christian:u are the one to meet him not him meeting u,and there is no enternal security.


Muslim:my friend u cant confuse me,till we meet next time.

I love the chat, holypower. It reminds me of the cowardice of dogmatic religious bigots who cannot withstand intellectual arguements and criticisms, who don't like to think. And i love how you preach too. I do understand the concept of trinity, i mean sometimes, 1+1+1=1. For instance, a man, a husband and a father could mean one person and not necessarily 3 different persons.

What i don't support is that Christ was 3 in 1. I believe that was the premise of the chat. The bible does not confirm that, verses exist in the NT that emphasize Jesus as the servant of God. I don't know if you are familiar with such verses.


And, Jesus dying for mankind 's sin...... Perhaps you could explain better, will a Christian that died after a life full of havoc,atrocities and evil, be saved from hell for simply believing in Christ?

Peace.

.........

....

As it is, i have learnt a lot from the thread, talk about hate haboured for me ever since october, talk about understanding some verses better,talk about the position of the first 4 khalifs on hadiths. Infact it has been an honour to be here. I learn more and more about the kind of persons traditional muslims are. And i feel pity for those who come here to learn about God, it kills me when i see such innocent nairalanders getting choked with teachings not authorised by God. There still exists pharisees to this very day, the typical kind of pharisees that Jesus described in Matthew 23, the kind of pharisees that plotted against him.

Lets c some few ways traditional muslims have deserted the Qur'an and why Muhammad will complain on Judgement day(Qur'an 25:27-31).

Qur'an says it is fully detailed(6:114). Traditional muslims say, "NO!, the book is not detailed as it says, it is Muhammad, Ali, Ayatollah, Bukhari, Imam and madhabs that will detail it for us"

Qur'an says it is clear and easy to understand(54:17). Hadithists say "No, Qur'an is not clear or easy to understand, you need Muhammad, Ali, Imams and Madhabs to clarify the book".


Qur'an says: "Flog adulterers,regardless of marital status(24:2,4:16)". Hadithists said, "NO!, stone married adulterers to death". They hear, they disobey.

God said, "cut the hands of a theif(5:38)". Traditional muslims say, "NO, we shall cut off/amputate the hand of a theif", rendering him handicapped till death.

GOD said, "There is no compulsion in religion", jump into disbelief to belief and vice versa as you please.
Hadithists said, "No, there exist limited freedom of belief, we shall kill apostates,alcoholics,those who did not pray for over 3 days" thereby killing innocent apostates in the most vile and inhumane possible means.

GOD said, "you have no intercessor, intercession will not be useful on Judgement day(2:48)".
Traditional Muslims said, "NO, Muhammad, Ali and anyone who memorised the whole Qur'an will be our intercessors and can save us from hell on Judgement day". Is this the belief of a MONOTHEIST?


I could go on and on and on and on. But a word is enough for the wise.
Peace.

[quote author=Al-Baqir]May God shame adamant liars!

Who ask you about adhan, iqama et al? Who ask you name of Muhammad (saws) or Ali (a.s)? I simply ask you how do you establish 'salat' according to Qur'an!



Now I know you need help! Kindly show me where the word 'salat' is mention in this ayah! And besides what's the meaning of 'salat'?

"Kul id'huLLAH (say call upon Allah), awid'hu Rahman (or upon ar-Rahman)..."

Where Does Qur'an told you the number should be according to your discretion?
'Salat of fear': the fact that Allah says you can shorten it, is that also according to your discretion?




I didn't say its only on crop! Unfortunately the verse you gave me highlighted crops only. And besides from where did you get 2.5% annually? Which verse stated that?
Does Qur'an told you the rate depend on circumstances and do not fixed? Does Qur'an told you community can use their discretion on it?

You are simply a fraud star!

On Fasting:
Nope! He said "fast for few days only" in the month of Ramadhan. This is different from fast in the whole month of Ramadhan or fast throughout the days of Ramadhan!
Again: how many few days do you fast mr discretion?



Here Allah commanded the believers. So if an idol-worshiper or non-muslim 'just take a normal bath' after intercourse with intention of cleaning himself off sexual dirtiness, he has perform a ritual bath?
Bro. You sick seriously.



Now I understand those in whose heart there's disease.[/quote]Man, i just love this. I gave you what you demanded. But in the end you chosed what you wanted. Salat, Zakat, Fasting are not Muhammad 's message. The populace performed those rite before Muhammad. Muhammad nvr taught them, rather he simply practiced them, devoting them entirely to God alone. It shouldn't be surprising that the Qur'an did not highlight everything about the already established rites,only making correction. The parts of these rites that needed correction was what were mentioned in the Qur'an. Like Salat, 72:18, 20:14 and 29:45, these are crucial details whose violation constitute joining others in worship with God, idolatry but majority of muslims ignore these and keep asking, "where in the Qur'an says we should recite fatiha in salat or where in the Qur'an says we should perform 4 rakas during zuhr?" Hmm... talk of dogmas. Then 17:110, pls read to the end of the verse. This is another salat detail hadithists violate, they complain of Qur'an not teaching how to pray, but the few salat details in the book of God, they utterly betray. But alas, what do you call persons like me? "one in whose heart is disease", right?

Traditionalists came up with their own version of these rites and begin to tell us that it is either you perform salat like them or you have no salat. Even the hadiths do not specifically teach salat like hadithists practice. They are full of contradictory reports of persons who "claimed to have seen" the Prophet pray. Is that what one should be relying upon for performing salat? Can i have one hadith where the Prophet taught the complete way to pray? I didn't learn how to perform salat from hadith books,neither did my parents, and neither did my grandparents. Salat is just a tradition like zakat,fasting,hajj that have been passed down generation after generations from the time of Abraham,undergoing alterations in the process.

I won't speak more on the rest, can't you see, it is pointless. Only those who understand what God mean by "fully detailed", in Qur'an 6:114, will be able to see things as they are. Untill then, a wall will remain btw the Qur'an and the reader.

babylolaroy: on the face of earth?. so people like ds username abi mane still exist?

So, it has gotten to that extent? Where people here wish to see me killed for no offence. How many times did i get my post hidden? And how many times was i banned. I nvr insulted anyone, but me usermane always got the axe. I even had to exile myself for a while but time haven't healed anything as i can see.
Am not back here, it is Al-Baqir that is holding me here. I lost my faith in this section long ago.

Peace.
We will find out who respect the Prophet and his family more. The messenger 's duty: Qur'an 5:99, 6:48, 13:40.

Salat.
72:18, 20:14 17:110
One musn't call or mention or invoke any other name in his worship. Adding Muhammad or Ali 's name to adhan, iqamat, tashahood violate this. Certainly Muhammad did not accept these, these were innovations by later muslims. One 's attention is supposed to be exclusively on God. And you will agree with me that Muhammad and Ali did remember only God in their salat. You may perform your daily salats promptly all your life, but if u have been remembering other than God in your Salat, that is idolatry. Also Muhammad or Ali 's name should not be displayed or written next to God 's in the mosque.

17:110
I saw "salat" in that verse, not "dhikr". The tone of recitation is neither silently nor loud. Should be audible but moderate.
Salat times.
2:238, 11:114, 17:78, 24:58
The number of rak'ah is left to our discretion, 24434 just happened to be the most widely accepted combination. The fact that ju'mah pray has only 2 rakas could have something to do with these. Salat is not full of protocols as traditional muslims believe. Lame persons, people travelling in a state of fear on horses for instance are permitted to perform salat without standing! Qur'an 2:239.


Fasting.
You talked of "intellect" earlier. If God asked us to fast in a month and insist we make up for missed days due to travelling or illness then automatically he expect us to fast for a whole month.


Zakat.
This is cool. U think zakat is restricted to food crops because of the word "harvest"? Harvest refers to your periodical earnings. If you earn monthly, you give zakat monthly, if you earn annually, give zakat(2.5%) annually. The zakat rate is not fixed and depending on circumstances, can be altered by community.

What is with u on ritual bath? Bath intended to clean you after intercouse, that is it. No much different from normal bath apart from the intention.

33:21
Pls, Al-Baqir, man was given a brain. Qur'an(10:100) ask us to think. You don't need to be taught mundane, petty things like which hand to eat with,which leg to enter toilet with, which part of the dish to start eating from, which colour of cloth is prefered for men and women,how to dress, which fruit to break fast with,whether to wear cap or not,how long you should grow your beards,how wide apart your feet should be during salat,what to do when a rat fall into your soup,how often one should bath e.t.c the hadiths contains and traditional muslims boast of. Those aren't what you should be looking for in the Prophet. You only need to abide by what he abide by(Qur'an) to be like him.

...

[quote author=Al-Baqir]Now you are going through Arab history before Muhammad but 'during and after Muhammad's life-time', were of no use to you. What an illogical reference.
Why don't you stop beating round the bush my friend. Answer those questions accordingly using Quran as your guide since you claim every specific detail is in holy Qur'an.



Who compiled the holy Qur'an and when was it compiled? Give my detail ONLY according to the Qur'an since every detail is in it.



So what was the purpose of sending a messenger to guide mankind?
Q.33:21 talks about a beautiful pattern of conduct of Muhammad; thereby, whoever believe in God and the last day should emulate him. Kindly explain to me only according to Qur'an how Muhammad (saws) did some of the following: eating habit, sleeping habit, naming ceremony, dead rituals, etc.
In what matters of life should we obey the messenger since according to you obeying the messenger is obeying Qur'an; at least it is crystal clear Qur'an did not give detail of everything pertaining to human life?

Everything still boils down to the previous questions. Don't quote history or hadith for me here just answer ONLY according to the Qur'an.[/quote]Salat
4:101-103, 17:110, 20:14, 29:45, 72:18

Zakat.
6:141

Fasting.
2:183-187

Hajj
2:196-203, 22:26-29

Overall
21:73, 22:78

Pre-Muhammad Arabs apart from performing these rituals believed in God.
6:136, 7:28, 39:3

Knowing the order of revealation or compilation of Qur'an has nothing to do with God 's message with our redemption.

33:21
Honesty, piety, kindness, generosity, faithfulness and obedience to God are the Prophet 's qualites which make him an example for us. You don't need hadith before you can develop these qualities. Abraham was described also as an example for Muhammad and us all(Qur'an 60:4), where are Abraham hadiths? Muhammad certainly did not have Abraham 's hadiths.

Am really dejected that you turned down the hadiths i cited for you. I take it that you did it because the hadiths weakens the foundation of your arguements.

Also, read Qur'an 6:110-117 and 25:30-31. Perhaps, you 'll know why i abide by only the Qur'an.

OMG,we got a fiesty one here. What a cold welcome for me.

Al-Baqir, why did you turn down those hadiths, they are from the same source you rely on for your arguements. I believe you have enough collections to investigate them. I didn't fabricate them please.

As for your questions, every thing you need, you 'll find in the Qur'an. Hajj, Zakat, Salat, Ritual bath were known to the Arabs who were trying to practice Abraham 's religion before Muhammad came. Muhammad had no other duty, than delivering the message. Most of the details of these rites could be found in the Qur'an if and only if one would read the Qur'an to understand it. So pls, we should be careful, making statements like Qur'an is incomplete or not detailed is sinful.

Talking of doubting the Qur'an, i have heard it before. The sunnis, the shiites, they both have issues,that some chapters are incomplete. Am not kidding on this. It is not like hadithists even comply with the Qur'an in the first place. Afterall, they always favour the hadiths over the Qur'an.

Lastly, "obey the messenger" comes from obeying Qur'an. The messenger is not another god to be obeyed beside God. Everything he was asked to say was in the Qur'an. Obeying the messenger is obeying God, and obeying God is obeying Qur'an. The messenger is dead, he can't guide us. Any attempt to lean upon him now constitute lack of faith or belief in God.

Throughout my time in this forum, i have noted that it is almost impossible to beat dogmas with logic or evidence. As the hadiths had stated, Caliph Abubakar was right, the hadiths have left muslims of today in a far worse predicament. Whenever the word 'Hadith' is used in the Qur'an for anything other than God 's verses, it carries a negative meaning(Qur'an 7:185, 12:111, 31:6, 45:6, 77:50).

There are already enough hadiths to convince sunnis that Qur'an is the only legitimate source of laws for a Muslim. What about the shiites?

Sunan Al-Daramy
Ali ibn Abu Talib,the 4th khalif in one of his speeches said, "I urge those who have taken writtings from the Messenger of God to go home and erase it. The people before you were annihilated because they followed hadiths of their scholars and left the book of their Lord".

Sunan-i-tirmizi/Darimi
They came to report to report to Ali and said," the public is engrossed in hadiths". "Is that so? aske Ali. The answer was in affirmative. "I had heard the Prophet say that a mischievous dissension seemed to lie ahead. I asked him about it and he said: 'the salvation is in the Qur'an. Those that went before you and those that will come after you are within the reach of the Qur'an, THE BOOK THAT SETTLE ALL DISPUTES....' ".

Look, i really don't need these hadiths, i don't believe them either. Am posting them for those who would rather accept hadiths than Qur'an verse. Enough for me is God(Qur'an 6:114, 7:3, 16:89, 39:36, 18:27).

Peace!

somalia5: Is this from a lack of understanding the deen or they have misinterpreted islam to suit their lifestyle.

I have seen many women who claim to be muslim of west african stock who simply dont wear the head scarf, some even go as far as to say that covering the hair is a arab tradition.


what do you guys think?

I think you can cover up and still look beautiful, like these beautiful Somalis sisters.

Peace.
I think the women who said: "covering hair is an arab tradition and therefore not obligatory" are right. The word "khimar" was distorted to mean an headscarf, so if you check most arabic dictionary, khimar is defined as a headscarf, exclusively. This is misleading. Dictionaries that defines khimar accurately are scarce or rare.

A khimar is the name for a square piece of cloth for covering, e.g a shawl, in Qur'an 5:90, khamr(singular) was used to describe intoxicants because they block/cover the brain or mind or concentration. The word was used back in time for rogues,carpets,curtains and even the black cloth on the ka'aba, confirmed by few arabic dictionaries, hard to come by. This square piece of cloth was used in different communities, before today, in different ways. To back babies,hung only on the neck, wrapped only around the shoulders and bosom, sometimes covering on a portion of the hair or sometimes,not even covering the hair at all. Native indian women for instance wear a khimar/shawl on their shoulders without covering the hair. Sometimes women put their khimar on their head without concealing all their hair, adjusting the khimar on their bosom but their neck and ears remain visible. Go to the market for instance and you will observe all these. As a result, if the command was also to cover their hair, the verse should 've been: "they shall put their khimar over their heads and bosom". But the verse reads,: "they shall put/draw/place their khimar/shawls/wraps over their bosom". This simply mean: get a piece of cloth or sheet and cover your bosom with. Whether this sheet cover your hair or not is not relevant as long as it covers your bosom.

bola4dprec: The Mosaic law commanded God's
people to gather for worship and to hear
God's Word (Deuteronomy 12:5-12;
31:11-12). The Old Testament required
travel to a centralized location to hear a
special priesthood. The reason is that the
Spirit was not yet given to the people
under the Old Covenant, and since they
had no Spirit to communicate with God,
they had to go to a physical building and
hear a physical priest to understand
what God's Word was.

This is interesting. I don't understand why you have to quote from the Book of Moses. Christians, many times insists that the laws of the old testament is binding upon only the Jews, this i accept. How come are you quoting a law from Deutronomy to reply the OP? Pls can you quote the Gospel? Then again the Jews held their weekly worship on Saturdays, not Sundays.

Look, as a Muslim, i believe in both the Torah and Gospel, infact i read them. But when it comes to laws and regulations, the Qur'an is the sole source. So also,the Gospel is Jesus message and should be the sole source of laws for christians, not the Book of Moses.

Mee234: the only people who think there was a lost gosple are you and your likes. It sound dum when claim an original gosple was lost even dummer when ur only evident is the recitation of a man that lived 7 centuries after. A recitation that encourages u to make reference to this lost gosple.

The Gospel was God 's revealation to the Messiah, just like the Qur'an and Torah. It was a scripture and not a biography of Jesus. From the existence of Four gospels(Matthew,Mark,Luke and John) you should know something went wrong. Infact, these four gospels are the generally accepted ones. Report shows that there existed several other gospels which were rejected in favour of these four, like Gospel of barnabas. I think you know very well that Christ followers were persecuted and had to flee, disunite and remain scattered over the kingdoms after Jesus death. Couldn't it be that the Jews and Romans had attacked the Gospel as well?

I don't buy into the general notion that God sent His chosen one to deliver revealation without recording it down in writting. The Jews for instance came up and said that Moses didn't record part of the revealations(oral law) and then when Jesus came he observed only the written Torah to the fury of the Pharisees. Then after this experience, you think Jesus delivers the Gospel orally and leave the recording to be done decades after his death. This is why today, there are trinitarian christians,Jehovah witness and unitarian christians who consider Jesus as a Prophet. They do not all agree on who Jesus was and what was his message.

Even the Muslims have been playing this trick. They say: "Qur'an wasn't written or compiled untill after Muhammad, the Qur'an is lacking in some of God 's revealation and the Oral laws(Hadiths) complement that". All lies. Muhammad wrote the Qur'an,recording all of God 's revealation before his death.

Logicboy03: FAIL......

LETS SEE-

YOUR ONLY POINTS ARE-

A) SECULARISM IS BAD FOR SOCIETY
B) THERE IS NO VERSE IN THE QURAN AGAINST CAPITALISM
C) THERE IS A LIBERAL INTERPRETATION OF THE QURAN


FAIL FAIL FAIL

=========================


A) I would like you to compare the muslims in "secular" lagos/Oyo/Osun state and then the muslims in the sharia north of Nigeria
I would like you to compare the average muslim in any secular country in the west and then, muslims in the middle east

Tell me, which groups of muslims a more peaceful, more educated and more tolerant of atheists?

Secularism is good for muslims both in western and non-western societies



B) Read up on islamic finance and how it is incompatible with capitalism. This is the problem with debating many nairaland muslims....only few know anything about finance but they somehow know that islamic finance is good......mtchew

How can modern capitalism survive without interest or stock trading? Arent those naturally haram with the banning of gambling and interest in islam?



C) Yes, there is a liberal interpretation of the Quran, no doubt. BUT IT IS IN THE FREAKING MINORITY, GADDEMIT!! LOOK UP THE WORD MAINSTREAM IN THE OP AND A DICTIONARY......THAT LIBERAL INTERPRETATION IS AS GOOD AS USELESS IF SO FEW MUSLIMS ADHERE TO IT!!!!!!!!!!




#DEBUNKED

CAPITALISM
From the onset, i said am not sure if interest is entirely forbidden or only usury is. Majority of Muslims believe interest in any proportion is forbidden while a minority agree that minimal interest is allowed. That is going to be a lengthy assignment for me.
So also i 'll keep capitalism and stock trade pending.

SECULARISM
Sorry man, i get what you are saying now. Actually secularism is necessary for a healthy society. Aside those rulings with penalties for defaulters among believers, no one has the right to enforce any scriptural rule on the masses. For instance, adultery,murder,theft cannot be tolerated, offenders among the believers are to be brought to book. But punishing people for consumption of alcohol,penalising women for not dressing decently,enforcing gender segregation in schools, offices or banning the building of churches have nothing to do with Islam. Deal with that.


LIBERAL INTERPRETATION OF QUR'AN.

Hello, atheist. What is your concern with the majority? Are you a follower of the bandwagon? God warn us against blindly imitating the majority(Qur'an 6:116). I am not expecting anything from anyone. My Lord command me to stick with His Book, recite it myself and ponder over its verses(Qur'an 6:114, 7:3, 38:28). He didn't appoint anyone to tell me what to do. The Qur'an explains itself. Those who have decided to follow the opinions of clerics that lived around the 10th century can do as they please. I have been granted a brain to think. Abraham, a man who is adored by both Muslims and Christians wouldn't have concluded on the Majesty of God if he didn't think for himself. He would have joined his father in stone worship. Pls one need to use his head when dealing with religion. Following the crowd lead to nothing but ignorance,fanatism and extremism.

The OP said : "Christians give out charity than Muslims".

You could be right. But could it be that muslims give out charity quietly without public awareness? Am not certain.

Lastly on the issue of honesty in religious root. It has more to do with ignorance on the part of people especially those who turned Qur'an to an arabic hymn book, rather than taking it as a message to be read, understood and adhered to. But lets be frank. Jesus nvr called himself a christian, neither did Moses call himself a Jew. They didn't call themselves Muslims either. The words: "Judaism" or "Christianity" were never used in the scriptures.
The word "muslim" is an arabic word for "submitter", i.e one who submits to God and since Moses and Jesus submitted to God, they could be termed as Muslims!


You may want to check out this thread. I treated ten misconceptions among muslims that could give you a new understanding of Islam.
https://www.nairaland.com/1493271/ten-misconception-among-muslims

People tend to forget that the Gospel of Jesus, am talking of the original revealations recorded by Jesus was lost and the current gospels are lacking in the complete message of Jesus. This is why you 'll think christianity fairer than Islam, well bring forth the original Gospel and we 'll be good to compare.

The OP also said: "Christians are more tolerant to non christians than Muslims are, to non muslims"

I won't dispute this. I believe the issue is not with the Qur'an but with muslims who choose to hold onto contradictory interpretation of Qur'an.
The Qur'an(5:13,7:199, 60:08) enjoin believers to treat well and tolerate disbelievers. There is no compulsion in Islam hence no penalty for apostates according to Qur'an(2:256). No where did God spell out any penalty for blasphemy, thus blasphemy laws and punishment stipulated in middle east are unislamic(Qur'an 4:140, 6:68). U see my friend, when you learn about your Lord only from the scholars like Bilal Philips, Zakir Naik e.t.c, you are turning into a sheep. Much as God grant some persons knowledge better than others, everyone is expected to recite the scripture and come to their conclusion. No waiting for priests,or clerics to spoonfeed me or you.

By the way i like your analogy. Truely the folks at Islam for Muslim sections are intolerant and unjust. As a muslim, because i reject their interpretation of Islam and condemn their practices using Qur'an and logic, all the do is HATE, delete my posts and ban me. If only all the religions share only one section, it would be better. There would be no hiding place for lies, dogmas and the truth will surface.

Can't quote the OP, my post box can't house more than 5000 letters. I think u should atleast ten reasons. I got ten reasons why i can't be an atheist or christian.

There is liberal interpretation of Qur'an but unless u care to investigate thoroughly you won't believe me. The problem is with the sectarian muslims who expect everyone to accept the interpretation of the priests and clerics, who live centuries ago. Well, as for me am different, try me if you doubt me.


2:190-194 are still canon. There is no abrogation of Qur'anic verses. Whenever God gives a command, it doesn't change(Qur'an 6:115). Even from the context you know that the verse is general and not restricted to the Prophet 's days. Please be wary of scholars, the Qur'an(9:31-34) warn against them.

Talking of capitalism, pls cite a verse that condemns it. Secularism, is not ideal for society, God must be observed even outside the temple else people will go rogue.

Usury
Cant talk much about this. Why do most translation choose usury for "riba"? Usury is different from interest, usury is exhorbitant interest. But then again 3:130 tend to prove any interest at all is forbidden. So am sure excessive interest is forbidden due to the harm and hardship it causes but am not sure of minimal interest. There is no commerce without interest. But there could be commerce without usury. On contrary, God 's comparism of charity with usury/interest in 2:176 could also indicate any increase in repayment of loan is forbidden. God knows best.

Logicboy03: You must be a maza maza goat seller.

Did ounot notice that I quoted the Quran? My arguments are from the Quran

Riba/interest/usury- from the Quran http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riba#Qur.27an
The war verses- from the Quran

The rest is based on how sharia law is faulty...based on its theory and how it is practised


IT WOULD BE BETTER FOR YOU TO QUOTE A PART OF THE OP YOU DISAGREE WITH AND STATE WHY IT IS WRONG RATHER THAN MAKE EMPTY ACCUSATIONS.

W

Ok, pls don't give me any link to wikipedia. That is not a reliable soure of information. I will try attending and responding directly to the OP.

No,no, no. OP i cannot agree with you. You went and studied sunni and shiite religion then you assumed you know Islam and next you come in here to start comparing. How unfair. If you want to learn about Islam, study the Qur'an yourself, that is the only source of the truth. Try being objective and stop taking Islam for Muslim section,scholars and clerics to be the interpreters of Islam. I believe as an atheist you should seek proof before accepting anything as part of Islam. God invites everyone including the doubters to study his scriptures rather than waiting for a priest to dictate or enlighten us.
Peace.