₦airaland Forum

This is not certain yet, op. Don't be in a haste to relay this kind of info till you are very sure about it(Qur'an 17:36, 49:6). Some traditional muslims might have started sharpening their knives already.

Much as this may sound harsh, @beejaay and Al baqir have spoken well. The ummayads, abbasids, taliban and ottoman jihadists have done far more terrible things. You think the Angolans are unaware of the countless boko haram attacks on non-muslims in Nigeria,in the name of Islam? You think they do not nurse fear of the tendency of Angolan version of Boko haram being formed in future? If traditional muslims wished the best for themselves, let them return to the bright and progressive teachings of the Qur'an and stop following man-made doctrines. Then everyone will admire Islam, even those who refuse to convert. Untill then,it might be inconsiderate to start pointing fingers.

[quote author=Al-Baqir]The sura reads:

"Say (O Muhammad): "I am only a man like you. It has been REVEALED to me..." (Q18 the very last verse).

Does every man get revelation? Only special and exceptional among "men" does. On the other hand they are called "al-Mustapha - chosen one".

Before they can be given revelation or chosen, their character, thinking and judgement among many other thing MUST be exceptional not comparable to every tom, dick and Harry.[/quote]Your view is then contrary to the verse. As long as he said "a man like you",then we just have to take it the Prophet aside the revealation he got is just a man like me and you, struggling to attain perfection. I already told you to check Qur'an 22:52,53 out. That a man is a saint with exalted morals doesn't make him free of mistakes or faults. Also you said Muhammad was always a monotheist, right from birth, fine i will dig more on that.

Then mutashabihat verses are not marked in the Qur'an or can you provide us a list of all such verses? Besides, God did not point out those who are grounded in knowledge. Anybody can strive to be knowledgeable enough with due effort to uncover the true meanings of mutashabihat(multiple meaning) verses.

Mehn, Al baqir, you got it all wrong. First, you came to a thread that has nearly been forgotten whose Op was under a ban, then posted a lot of comments or questions. Then expect me to start answering several questions at a time while without pausing, u kept on asking more and more questions. In the end, there was no balance between the questioning and answering yet you accuse me of dodging you amidst the chaos.

The reason why you think i 've been dodging you is cos i don't quote you and i reply your questions as if i am addressing other persons reading the thread too. This wouldn't have been the case if you organised your questions well and stop posting a textbook whenever you comment. Also some of our arguements like "whether the original copy of Qur'an is same with today copies" are dead end arguement. Unless we both have the original copy,uthmanic copy or todays copy we can't debate much over who is right. Then some of your questions, the answers are right in the Op, i cant keep repeating myself. Am posting with a smartphone please. I addressed all your questions and queries,read between the lines please. You contradict a lot of verses i cited,how else do you want us to proceed? Maybe some other time you can open a new thread, specifically for us to discuss or debate extensively.

My stand, i accept the only teaching of God: Qur'an,no hadith or sunnah which have no authority from God. I only cite hadith to support my arguement cos traditional muslims believe more in hadith than Qur'an. Otherwise, i do not rely on any hadith, be it from sunnis or shiites.

Let us agree that chapter 80: he frowned. Is not referring to the prophet, then what about other verses like 33:37, 66:1 and 40:55.

[quote author=Al-Baqir]"That the prophet Muhammad was an illiterate man"

Was that my wording? I strongly doubt it. I will appreciate you the more if you can go through my replies to Username's theories.

Here's my exact wording:

"The holy prophet (saws) was not able to write or
read (he was an Ummy which Qur'an itself testifies). One of the uniqueness about Qur'an is how it was IMPRINTED and collected into memory. "

1. Honestly I deliberately used the word 'cannot read or write' rather than "illiterate" in the context of this contemporary world. At least you will agree with me that inability to read or write does not necessarily mean one is foolish or unintelligent.

2. On the other hand, I used 'cannot read or write' to set username up for another argument hoping he will take the bait and BINGO he did.

So far (if you read and digest our conversations well) I have been battling him to prove that English translation of the holy Qur'an does not do justice to the Arabic wording of the Qur'an; thereby, studying Arabic, understanding Arabic, recitation in Arabic is the BEST (I cited an example from sura Nisa vs 1). Remember he's a type that tend to discourage Arabic.

THE ARABIC WORD USED
The exact word used in the holy Qur'an is "UMMY" (pl. UMMIYIN).
Going through many English translated Qur'an, you see "illiterate" or "Unlettered" etc.

Literally that might be the meaning but not necessarily mean that and Qur'anic meaning is quite different entirely. In the Qur'an, it means "GENTILE" or "ONE WHO IS NOT PRIMARILY FAMILIAR WITH A LAW (apparently Moses's Law).

'Gentile' though non-jewish, also mean someone who is not a reader of Torah.

Ref: Edward Lanes Lexicon explain this in detail (vol. 1)

Examples in the Qur'an:

1. "And there are among them 'ummi(yuna)' , who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but guess" ~Q2:78

2. In sura Jum'a vs 2:

"It is He Who has sent among the 'ummiyina' a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His verses, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, although before they
had been in manifest error"

If one translate the word "ummi" to mean "illiterate", it will distort the meaning of the two verses above. One will presume Allah sent the holy prophet (saws) to illiterates. But going through example 1. "Who know not the book" which actually give the meaning of "Ummi"signify people who know not the previous law (of moses).

This is a broad explanation which I cannot quickly brush through but I hope you get the gist.[/quote]No way, u said he couldn't read or write, and i have addressed that. A person who cannot read or write is still an illiterate or unlettered.

And forget it man, u can't ridicule me with: "usermane discourages persons from learning arabic", a clear survey of my posts so far deny your accusation. You with all your knowledge of arabic decide to translate ummy for illiterate and it prove my arguement so far as tangible.

And please the first step toward becoming a muslim is to study the Qur'an(Qur'an 4:82,47:24). Only after that does one accept the Qur'an and Muhammad as God 's messenger. I bet you expect such person(incapable of understanding arabic) to utilise a translated copy in his quest to learn the truth.
Again don't just conclude every xtian out there is doomed(Qur'an 2:62). There are unitarian xtians, some of whom may be monothesists even closer to God than some muslims. Muhammad did not come to eliminate Jesus or Moses and put himself ahead of them. Qur'an also did not come to eliminate the torah or gospel, but to confirm them(Qur'an 3:3, 5:47)

[quote author=Al-Baqir]"That the prophet Muhammad was an illiterate man"

Was that my wording? I strongly doubt it. I will appreciate you the more if you can go through my replies to Username's theories.

Here's my exact wording:

"The holy prophet (saws) was not able to write or
read (he was an Ummy which Qur'an itself testifies). One of the uniqueness about Qur'an is how it was IMPRINTED and collected into memory. "

1. Honestly I deliberately used the word 'cannot read or write' rather than "illiterate" in the context of this contemporary world. At least you will agree with me that inability to read or write does not necessarily mean one is foolish or unintelligent.

2. On the other hand, I used 'cannot read or write' to set username up for another argument hoping he will take the bait and BINGO he did.

So far (if you read and digest our conversations well) I have been battling him to prove that English translation of the holy Qur'an does not do justice to the Arabic wording of the Qur'an; thereby, studying Arabic, understanding Arabic, recitation in Arabic is the BEST (I cited an example from sura Nisa vs 1). Remember he's a type that tend to discourage Arabic.

THE ARABIC WORD USED
The exact word used in the holy Qur'an is "UMMY" (pl. UMMIYIN).
Going through many English translated Qur'an, you see "illiterate" or "Unlettered" etc.

Literally that might be the meaning but not necessarily mean that and Qur'anic meaning is quite different entirely. In the Qur'an, it means "GENTILE" or "ONE WHO IS NOT PRIMARILY FAMILIAR WITH A LAW (apparently Moses's Law).

'Gentile' though non-jewish, also mean someone who is not a reader of Torah.

Ref: Edward Lanes Lexicon explain this in detail (vol. 1)

Examples in the Qur'an:

1. "And there are among them 'ummi(yuna)' , who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but guess" ~Q2:78

2. In sura Jum'a vs 2:

"It is He Who has sent among the 'ummiyina' a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His verses, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, although before they
had been in manifest error"

If one translate the word "ummi" to mean "illiterate", it will distort the meaning of the two verses above. One will presume Allah sent the holy prophet (saws) to illiterates. But going through example 1. "Who know not the book" which actually give the meaning of "Ummi"signify people who know not the previous law (of moses).

This is a broad explanation which I cannot quickly brush through but I hope you get the gist.[/quote]No way, u said he couldn't read or write, and i have addressed that. A person who cannot read or write is still an illiterate or unlettered.

And forget it man, u can't ridicule me with: "usermane discourages persons from learning arabic", a clear survey of my posts so far deny your accusation. You with all your knowledge of arabic decide to translate ummy for illiterate and it prove my arguement so far as tangible.

And please the first step toward becoming a muslim is to study the Qur'an(Qur'an 4:82,47:24). Only after that does one accept the Qur'an and Muhammad as God 's messenger. I bet you expect such person(incapable of understanding arabic) to utilise a translated copy in his quest to learn the truth.
Again don't just conclude every xtian out there is doomed(Qur'an 2:62). There are unitarian xtians, some of whom may be monothesists even closer to God than some muslims. Muhammad did not come to eliminate Jesus or Moses and put himself ahead of them. Qur'an also did not come to eliminate the torah or gospel, but to confirm them(Qur'an 3:3, 5:47)

Dewze: just like you have succeeded in telling us what you think about him (usermane). Should I say the difference btwn the both of you is that he(usermane) has done his with scriptures and verses 'directly' from the Quran. Not from any sunah or hadith which offcourse can be argued or disputed, depending on which side/sect of Islam you belong to. He has intentionaly and sensibly picked this verses from the book that is at least universally accepted by all muslims to be true and perfect. You should aswell bring out 'Quranic' verses that speak contrary to what the OP stated.

Al-baqir has admiriably tried to dispute some of the OPs statements. One of the problems I ve with his points is that they are mostly based on this same disputable sunnahs and hadiths. Example is trying to explain the superiority of Mohammed over other prophets by an obviously hyped interpretaion of the quran by another fellow believer. I don't see anywhere in those verses where it is mentioned Mohammed is directly or even indirectly greater that other prophets (all I see in those verses are exaltations and not positional status/rank). Al-baqir mentioned that Mohammed was refered to as a lamp(light). Just wondering if he has read that Christ Jesus was also called the light of the world.

Thanks Dewze. Ask them why they claim Muhammad is the greatest messenger, they 'll come with verses like Qur'an 33:21,68:4 and the verses Al baqir cited that gives no clue of Muhammad being the greatest Messenger. This is what past communities did, they always believed that their Messenger was the greatest and idolised him against his will. But are all messengers not good example to mankind? Are all messengers not of exalted character? Aren't all messengers to be elevated to a honourable rank? is it only Muhammad?
Try these verses please, the whole of this, "Muhammad is infallible,the greatest" lack a minute evidence in the book of God. Qur'an 46:9, 21:72-73, 20:40-41, 4:125, 17:55, 7:144, 60:4-6.
Qur'an 33:37, 66:1,40:55

If Muhammad was infallible then he is no more a man or mortal like us, as Qur'an says(Qur'an 18:110). A mortal like us is fallible.

Pls Al baqir, can you show us a single verse in the Qur'an that tells that the Sacred Mosque existed before or was built before Abraham or before Mankind and even angels used to worship in it?

Also have you ever seen, "obey the Prophet or obey Muhammad" in the Qur'an? You tend to interchange messenger with prophet and this isn't right. "Prophet" in the Qur'an always referred Muhammad while he was alive on earth. Obeying the messenger is not obeying hadith books compiled centuries after Muhammad 's death. Obeying the messenger is obeying the Qur'an, the words he recited through his mouth. Not some unconfirmable rumours that were compiled by a certain man without due authorization from God.

I don't know if you studied Chemistry. A catalyst function in some reaction as an agent that hasten the reaction to completion. Such reactions could go without catalyst except that more time would be required for completion. A prerequisite is just like a reactant needed to obtain certain product or compound through a chemical reaction.
To round up, while you don't understand arabic yet, it is a choice, read the translated copies where u get to learn, or be bent on arabic text where you learn nothing. Please choose wisely.

Traditional muslims won't stop amusing me. First, u say the prophet knew everything, including the unseen but on the other hand you call him an illiterate, hmm... Very funny indeed. A messenger of God, a ruler of a state with different tribes and religions preaches a book that encourage us to read and write, yet the messenger of God himself refused to learn how to read and write! What an insult you guys hurl at Muhammad. You claim to love and obey the messenger yet you attribute insults upon insults to him, all in your stories or hadiths books, isn't this hypocrisy? An infallible man according to you couldn't read or write although fallible ones around him could do so? Note that these are the same traditional muslims that insists on keeping beards because the prophet did so, and banned me for 2 days for proving beards have nothing to do with Islam. My friends, you may go as far as Jupiter to study arabic, but always remember that your critical thinking is your first tool in understanding Qur'an.

Sadly am more preoccupied now and i cant dedicate myself to this thread anymore, i have done the most i can within the limited free time i have. The truth about Islam as delivered from Muhammad has been confounded with falsehood as is evident in various sects today. Only the Qur'an is free from such corruption and should soley be utilised for guidance.

At certain times people come up with new names, their own invention. This, the Prophet could possibly have done. You shouldn't try to potray it like the Prophet recieved divine revealations entailing "holy names" from God. Some persons come into Islam with bad names, and such names ought to be changed like u said. But to say that "James" should start bearing "Ali" cos he is now a muslim is quite retarded.

Muhammad, his parents were non muslims, how did they get such a beautiful name for their son?

Lastly, what has names got to do with religion? At best, only their meaning should be of concern.

Funny,how some people wanna twist my words as a weapon against me. Did i ever say understanding of Arabic is irrelevant to understanding Qur'an? Even Dewze tried to correct most of you but a lot prefer to find fault in my article than find truth in it.

For the last time, understanding arabic is a catalyst to fasten the understanding of Qur'an but it is NOT a prerequisite for understanding the Qur'an. My message so far has been; "if you do not understand arabic, u are better off reading a translation where you get to learn something than reading pure arabic text like a poem where you learn nothing"

People tend to talk about how much it is better to read the direct word of God but they forget certain elements:
Qur'an is not simply paper,ink and alphabets. Neither is it restricted to a particular language. It is the message that is the Qur'an. Qur'an is not from the tongue and lips, it is embedded in the mind or heart. In whatever language, u read it, as long as you are delivering God 's message, you are reading the Qur'an.
For the records, we don't even have the original arabic Qur'an, the ummayad ruler Marwan Ibn Al-Hakam(died 684AD) destroyed the original copy written by Muhammad 's own hand for certain reasons.
Scribes that tried duplicating the original Qur'an commited scribal errors even though the message of God itself was unaltered.
The original Qur'an did not have vowels or vocalization marks, these additions we have in today 's copies are therefore from scribes and not necessarily from God.
Hmmh... So much for insisting Qur'an must be read in arabic.

Lastly, look what you people have done to a book that God said is user friendly(Qur'an 54:17). You,traditional muslims decide to forge manuals for it with certain concepts like Hadiths,Sunnah,reason for revealation,tafsir,fatwa,ijma e.t.c, consequently driving people from the truth. Yusuf Ali understand arabic, why then does he get certain words wrong like ummy(gentile) in Qur'an 7:158 which he translated as illiterate. Common logic should tell even a non arabic speaker after reading the Qur'an that the Prophet was a literate(Qur'an 96:1-5,68:1). What is even worse is that according to the traditional Muslims, even understanding arabic is not enough to understand the Qur'an. You might be aware of this already, else ask you clerics.

Al-Baqir, is it possible to believe in Muhammad without believing in all other messengers? I doubt it. To make distinction is to judge or rank them. And what Muslims today have done is give Muhammad more distintion than other messengers which would not have been wrong if there were verses to back that up.

Micheal H. Hart 's book was just a personal research, wasn't of divine origin,hence prone to errors. Secondly the book was not about the greatest messenger but about greatest men. The best student in the class is not same as best student in Mathematics.

Again in your own hadith book, Muhammad asked that nobody should say he(muhammad) is better than Jonah ibn matta.
Sahih Bukhari,Book of Prophet 4.625
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book of tafsir of the Prophet 6.128.

So many times, the Qur'an ask us, believers including Muhammad to look up to Abraham but even with that you people maintain that Muhammad was the greatest and yet you can't quote a single verse to justify your claim.

Sheykul Islam: @ al baqir u have had it from the horses mouth. To be sincere which muslim will make such blasphemous statement. In the republic of iran if he makes such statements his head will be seperated from his neck.

Sheikh, u know why lot of non muslims detest traditional muslims? Becos most of them are quick to resort to violence in order to get what they want. That has been the way of of ummayads, abbasids, and ottoman empire and the traditional muslims of today have inherited this non islamic attitude from their mentors.
Sheikh the way i see it, you are no different from Abubakar Shekau, boko haram leader.

[quote author=Al-Baqir]I disagree with you here brother.
I have read and digested all your view-point. Kindly take your time and read mine with people's accusation esp @thaba1234 and my responses; then we can continue on that:www.nairaland.com/1480939/concept-infallibility-isma

www.nairaland.com/1488847/muhammad-saws-error-free-prophet

If you don't believe in the all times infallibility of the prophet (saws) then how much trust do you have for authenticity of the Qur'an?
Were you there when Jubril descended and revealed the message to him?
How do you know which words of his is actually 'revelation' or his personal sage saying except what he himself tells you?
Is there God's signature and stamp on each sura revealed?[/quote]listen, when we say prophet was fallible or commited sins we are not saying he used to cheat,drink,smoke or gamble. We are saying he made mistakes, in his daily life aside recitation of the revealations. He was not angel without freewill to disobey God. There are such verses were God even warned the Prophet of going astray, also verses like 69:43-46 tells that the prophet had the freewill to invent teachings and attribute them to God.

Lastly 22:52, what does it say? Messengers efforts or wishes are not invisible to the devil 's schemes.

[quote author=Al-Baqir]"In the creation of the heavens and earth, in the alternation of night and days; there are signs for those who reflect" ~Qur'an

I agreed with your theory. So long sun and moon are both creation of Allah and within the context of 'heavens' as used in the above verse and many verses of the holy Qur'an, we are allowed to maximally use both entities to their respective fullest application. I have no objection whatsoever. However, muslim are used to 'lunar' calendar as a result of adherence to Islamic teachings apparently through the prophetic teachings and we strongly believe 'lunar' calendar with certain dates (e.g Ramadhan et al) has their spiritual inclinations.

According to Prof. Maurice Buccaile who wrote "The Bible, the Qur'an and Science" justified the nearest accuracy of 'lunar' calendar compare to 'solar' vis-a-vis gregorian calendar. Many theories of different view!
The fact that the holy prophet (saws) used those "islamic months", it has become his sunnah which is enjoyed on all muslims:

"Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much."~33 vs 21.[/quote]It is true the Prophet used lunar calendar. But you cant compare their era with ours. They had very limited knowledge of science then and the best they could come up with is moon sighting.

xclusive43: Please get this right... The Prophet has been fasting ashoura since before he migrated to Medina.... And he did not change the date of ashura... He only told us to and wanted to fast tasu'a which is on the 9th of muharram but Allah did not spear his life to fast tasu'a..

Ok,can you tell us why some muslims fast either 8th and 9th or 9th and 10th while others fast 9th and 10th or 10th and 11th?

Also have you seen the hadith that tells us the ashura day was like Eid day for the Jews, how about your claim that the Jews fasted on that day? Also what can you say about Aisha 's hadith that Quraysh tribe some of whom were pagans, fasted on Ashura days during the Pre Islamic period?
Also, assuming the Prophet did fast on Ashura day before migrating to medina, why after meeting the Jews fasting did he make an order for muslims to fast on that day?

In summary, it is difficult, if not impossible to reach a conclusion about when Ashura day fasting debuted or the reason for which ashura day should be marked with a fast.

xclusive43: Brother please go seek for knowledge..... You are talking out of ignorance..... Why told you the Prophet did not fast Ashura?

Cool down,cool down. Relax,control yourself. You don't need to ask me Jamb questions. Ok, it was sahih muslim, ibn Abbass made that report in book 6 Fasting, hadith no. 2528.
I think i missed something though. To be correct it seem he did fast on only one ashura day, he then changed ashura to 9th muharram as from the next year instead of 10th but died before the next year. Then why after this are sunnis still marking ashura on tenth if the prophet changed it to 9th before he died?

All the hadiths i cited, i gave references. Get the pdf version of Sahih Muslim and Bukhari. These hadiths you can find by typing "ashura" in the search or find box because their numberings are inconsistent sometimes.

Sahih Bukhari book, 31, 3223.
In this hadith, the jews did not fast on ashura day to mark the exodus, ashura day was rather a day of celebration, a day to be merry for them. Didn't Imam muslim just say that the jews used to fast on ashura day?

Sahih Bukhari,book of fasting,3147.
Fasting as i understand commences from dawn till sunset. How come even those who had been eating even after sunrise were asked to stop eating till sunset? Did they not intend to fast or didn't the news reach them before morning that the following day was ashura day?

Sahih bukhari, book of fasting,3116.
If the reward for fasting on this day was so huge as today traditional muslims claim, why then did Abdullah who was suppose to be a sahaba stop fasting on it after Ramadan fasting was prescribed. Yet he observed voluntary fasting? Could it be that after Ramadan fast was prescribed, fasting on ashura day was no more special than fasting on any other day of the year?

I think i will stop here. My food is getting cold. These discrepancies are significant enough to discredit hadith books or ashura day fasting. Funny enough,the average muslim is unaware of all these. All they know is that they ought to fast on ashura day and a tremendous reward await them. I haven't even come across a single hadith that ask for fasting also a day before or a day after the ashura yet. I believe if the hadiths were from God, we wouldn't find in them a single contradiction(Qur'an 4:82). God reject blind faith, we must confirm anything we hear or read before accepting it(Qur'an 17:36, 10:100). Nothing concern us with what our fore fathers, Imams of the past did. We are responsible for ourselves just as they are responsible for themselves.

Like i said earlier on Hadiths books are full of contradictory accounts. I have quoted 4 hadiths earlier on that question the fasting of ashura day. But that from my experience is sadly not enough to make ahlul sunnah probe the truth about the fasting or hadiths books in general. So in a bid to uncover the truth or perhaps learn the truth i will continue my analysis.

Sahih muslim, book of fasting.
Says that Ashura is one of the days of Allah. I don't know if this is true, for it is said that it was the prophet 's personal decision to fast on that day.

Sahih muslim, book of fasting
According to this hadith,even the christians marked the ashura day. Here,the prophet also intended to fast on the 9th of muharram from the next year. If that is the case, then why do muslims still mark ashura fast on 10th? This hadith inform us that the prophet did not get the chance to ever fast on ashura day after the first year because he died shortly after intending to change the date to 9th from the second year onwards. On the contrary, there are many hadiths that tell us the prophet did observe the ashura fast long before Ramadan was prescribed for muslims. These are more contradictions.

Peace

[quote author=Al-Baqir]I feel you dear brother.
Do you know what they did to nearly all my comments in the link I introduced? They've succeeded in deleting them!
They don't wanna be questioned. Talk about Dogmatic beliefs!
You see them ascribing lies upon the prophet while they exalt one of their heroes. And if you dare question these heroes of theirs, you get rains of abuse. Ibn Taymiyah was their fore-father so expect worse from them (www.nairaland.com/1458713/blatant-liar).
Now I can conveniently say they "...have heart but could not perceive; they have eyes but could not see...they are like cattles! Nay! Worse than cattle..."~Qur'an.[/quote]Damn! I 've seen the mods' injustice. Am not even a shiite, yet i can see clearly that the whole Ashura day fasting of a thing is a fabricated hadith and the ummayad 's conspiracy have worked very well indeed. How come our literate or educated sunnis choose to conceal the truth despite all these? The whole thing make me sick. With these you can now see that how long one 's beard or hijab is, has nothing to do with piety and sincerity. U can now see why the Christians don't listen to you while you preach. One thing however is that the truth is distinct from falsehood,no in-between. The gulity 's conscience will continue to haunt him.

Am not done here though. Show is far from over. There are still contradictory accounts of Ashura day fasting in Bukhari that i intend to analyse.

RoyPCain, the only revealation the Prophet received are the 114 chapters of the Qur'an and he testified to this fact in Qur'an 6:19. And that was what he lived by(Qur'an 5:48-49). Hence, without any ayat ordering for it, the Prophet wouldn't have commanded muslims to fast on any day.
Again a book that is full of contradictions and insults to God,messengers,women cannot be a book similar to the Qur'an(Qur'an 4:82). There is no mention of 'Hadiths of Prophet' or 'Sunnah of Prophet' in the entire Qur'an. Whenever the word hadith is used in the Qur'an for other than the Qur'an itself, it carries negative meaning(Qur'an 7:185,31:6,45:6,77:50). All through the Qur'an,only sunnatullah can be found, which always refer to God 's pattern in dealing with past communities of men(Qur'an 17:77). Nowhere is 'sunnah of Prophet' mentioned. The only thing the Prophet left behind after his death was nothing but a written copy of the Qur'an. Lastly the prophet did speak out of his own desire or thinking, Qur'an 53:3, is only implying that the verses the Prophet recited were all divine revealations he recieved.

You were right though, the Jews could have changed their calendar, but how can we be sure of that? Also, no hadith tell us that the fasting was observed once per decade so we just have to assume it could have been an annual practice.
But unfortunately, no where in history or record did the Jews fast to mark the exodus. Yes they do celebrate the exodus till date in the hebrew month of Nissan but they do not fast.

I appreciate your effort but you left out a some salient issues. The few hadiths i quoted in my previous posts still stand against the Ashura day fasting. Will you mind treating them?

Anytime i step into Islam for Muslims. I come for business. I come for truth. I come with evidences and i put aside my ego, willing to eat the humble pie if i happen get proved wrong. That is what "belief" should be about.

Unfortunately it get boring over here at times and bordom kills me. Because most persons come in with their ego, and want to publicize or preach their beliefs or doctrines with minor or no evidences to support them. And they hate even a honest attempt to question or probe them. Every other aspect of life, people deem it necessary to look before they leap but when it comes to religion, nobody want to investigate or think. Everyone want to just go ahead with the crowd. This is the main reason why disbelievers throughout the Qur'an rejected messengers. They weren't willing to consider that their forefathers could have been wrong. They found the religion of their fathers too good to be wrong.

If as a muslim, you believe this thursday is a special day and intend to fast on that day, yet you have no written or empirical evidence to back it up against the criticisms leveled by the Op and the few hadiths i have quoted above, then you may want to consider having a second though about Muharram 10th.

Assalam alaykum. Pls accept my heartflelt condolences for your loss of a dear one, May his soul rest in peace.
Welcome back.

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I also stumbled upon upon these hadiths that left me guessing what traditional Islam is all about. Pls check these hadiths out. I mean, the Qur'an reccomended only fasting in Ramadan(Qur'an 2:183-187). Any other fasting(Qur'an 2:196, 4:92, 5:89;95 58:4) is for correcting mistake in acts of worship or atoning for one 's sin. According to traditional muslims, however, the Prophet did specify special days not mentioned in Qur'an for fasting. Could this still be true in the light of the hadith below?

Sahih Bukhari
Book 31: Fasting
3.208
Narrated Alqama
I asked Aisha "did Allah 's Apostle use to choose some special days(for fasting)?" she replied , "no,but he used to be regular(constant)(in his service of worshipping). Who amongst you can endure what Allah 's apostle use to endure?"

"He didnt choose Special days for fasting?" what happened to fasting 10th muharram, mondays and thursdays,13th-15th of every month, arafat day, 6 days of shawwal e.t.c?

To top it,in the same sahih book, book 76( Ar Riqaq, 8.473), the same narrator mentioned that the Prophet did not do extra deeds of worship(salat,fasting,animal sacrifice e.t.c), on special days.

PIs, is there something am missing here?

Please we are not here to ridicle or mock anyone 's belief. We are just trying to ascertain the truth here. We feel that everyone is entitled to the truth,as knowing the truth shall set us free. The truth is the best gift u could get from anyone. It just so happens that sometimes we end up hurting people 's feelings on our quest for the truth,but then again there is no gain without pain.
Please if you have a better arguement in support of Ashura day fasting, let us know and if you have a problem with it,share with us.

Sahih Bukhari
Book 31; Fasting
3116
Narrated by ibn umar: The prophet fasted and ordered muslims to fast on tenth muharam but when fasting of Ramadan was prescribed, the fasting of ashura was ABANDONED. Abdullah did not use to fast on that day unless it coincided with his routine fasting by chance.

According to this hadiths, fasting on ashura day was not made optional after Ramadan fasting was prescribed. It was abandoned totally and became no different from fasting on any other day.
The above hadith goes in contradiction to sunni common narrations that enjoin worshippers to fast on ashura day for huge reward. But despite these contradiction in the hadiths book, one is left wondering why the sunnis turn a blind eye and carry on with the fasting.

Salam Al-Baqir. I too am puzzled with this hadith. The first time i saw the hadith, i was like "Seriously? The prophet could just command muslims to fast without any revealation from God to do so?"
Another thing again is that Aisha narrated that even the Quraysh tribe used to fast on tenth muharram during the pre islamic period of ignorance. So it look like it wasn't even the Prophet that introduced 10th Muharram as a day for special fasting as sunnis believe.

cloudstar: Islamic teachings are not based on the Quran alone. Simple example:

1. Praying 5 times a day is not in the Quran but the hadith, yet every muslim including you obey this teaching
2. Going on the Hajj is another example and there are many other examples

So, it's not correct to say true muslims use the Quran alone to know it's teachings.

Dear, what you will do for the sake of keeping this thread focused on it topic is to go and get your answers from here:
https://www.nairaland.com/1493271/ten-misconception-among-muslims

tbaba1234: Was the Quran distorted too? How do you decide what is distorted and what is accurate.. Is it not that the Quran confirms the truth.

Read the piece carefully..

I. The punishment is not just for changing your religion.

Ii. It is for making a public show of it.

No one will drag you out of your house if you refuse to pray. Just live with your disbelief without disturbing people.

The wisdom in this is simple.

Imagine there are five apostates who left islam discretely without making a show of it this year. Next year, there might just be five more etc .. There is no exponential rise.

If those five make a public show of this.. Next year, there will be 10 or 15 and it grows exponentially.

A perfect example is the growth of homosexuality in the west.

An Islamic state is there to protect the faith and interests of muslims and provide the best environment to practise faith.

The only arguments against this can only be emotional not rational.

The hadith books rejected by the messenger and God Almighty(Qur'an 6:112-116, 7:185, 31:6, 45:6) did not list any condition to be met before killing apostates unlike some traditional muslim clergy apologists like those in this section tell us. As far as i can tell, the hadiths are explicit; 'Kill anyone who leave Islam'. But am glad tbaba had the gut to address the Op,even though he failed to defend his man-made rulings. No better than he are his likes out there who boycott threads like these that exposes their faults but rush to threads that praise them and their man-made beliefs.

In accordance with the Qur'an, Islamic state or not, apostates are not penalised with death. OP has quoted enough verses. If a person leaves your religion, preaching and criticizing it, the best you can do is to begin preaching for your religion and refuting the apostates 's criticism. If you are upholding the TRUTH, the apostate will never succeed in leading believers astray. Truth is always distinct from falsehood. God promised to establish his religion above all the others.

Start killing apostates and you end up with hypocrites who will silently and secretly corrupt your religion, eventually turning away multitudes of believers.

Clearly tbaba1234 cannot prove with a substantial or even meagre evidence from the only message of the messenger of God: Qur'an, that death for apostate is part of Islam. In essence tbaba and his likes disbelieve in Qur'an and according to their sunni religion, they are apostates and should be killed.

Even if a person leave Islam and start preaching against Islam, there is no injunction according to God 's revealations to kill such a person for as long as he kills nobody.
How can you kill me for turning away from your religion? Religion is not based on blind faith and constantly defending clearly evil doctrines. Religion is based on empirical evidences and morality. If you truely accept the scripture,obey and love the messenger, you cannot advocate for killing an apostate.

tbaba1234:

There are no multiple meanings here.. The leaders of those who worshipped the calf were killed. Apostacy law is still in the Jewish scriptures and was practiced in Christianity for centuries.

In Islam, it is not black and white.

The first thing to say is that in islam, there is no compulsion in religion, The Quran(translated) states:

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (Quran 2:256)

However in an Islamic state, there are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

The act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None,

Look at the apostacy law this way;

Acts against the nation are considered treason aren't they? what is punishment for treason in 9ja?

The constitution of an Islamic state is based on Islam; If i live in the state, i abide by its laws;

If someone leaves Islam in an Islamic state for whatever reason, as long as he doesn't go around opening flaunting his belief/unbelief or trying to convert muslims. He is fine. Otherwise, It is treasonable.

He can live his life, he doesn't have to pray or fast if he doesn't want to..

Besides, the person is not just executed, he speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, (for three days) if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

You should know by now, that the Jews distorted verses of the Torah. The first five books of the Old testament is not the exact book Moses received. And the Christians,neither have to follow the Torah nor are they following the true Gospel. They are following the teachings of St. Paul. None of the four gospels in the new testament order killing apostates.

And Final testament 2:51-54, didn't tell us that Moses killed the leaders of the apostates. Even mere reading the verse chronologically will tell you this. Moses had them repent and God forgave them. Every idol worshipper is responsible for his disbelief. There is no such excuse as; "he was the one who lead us to it". You see why i said understanding the Qur'an has more to do with critical thinking and sincerity than learning arabic?

For whatever reason killing of apostate is not by any means in accordance with Qur'anic teachings, Qur'an 2:256 sums it up. That is why you can't find a single verse to support that innovation.
Who cares whether they balge in and out of Islam with hypocrisy, certainly there are other means of tackling that aside killing, in which case even innocent apostates that mean no harm get killed too.
God even permit people to believe, then disbelieve,beleive again, then disbelieve(Qur'an 4:137) and you still support killing apostates? And then call yourself a muslim?