₦airaland Forum

tbaba1234: Question: What was the punishment in the Quran for those who worshipped the calf amongst the children of Israel?

Answer that first... After that we can delve into a proper understanding of what this means.

There are lots of multiple meaning words in the Qur'an. The Isrealites who worshipped the calf were not ordered to be killed as the verse 54 of chapter 2 is traditionally mistranslated. Moses asked them to turn in repentance to God and deal with their idolatory ego or tendencies. Don't forget that God already forgave them in verse 52. How then after God forgave them could they still be killed? Then again Moses asked them to repent, and what next? Kill them? That is impossible.

So the Qur'an nvr penalised apostates with death. U can answer my questions and address the issue on ground. Am upset that you agree that muslims who turned away from Islam should be killed. But you don't agree that those who leave Christianity for Islam should be killed by christians.

OP sorry, but i cannot agree with you or the old man. How do you expect to learn from the messages when you recite in a language you don't understand? How do you expect a non muslim,non arab to get the message of the Qur'an when you insist on reading in Arabic? Do you think those who read it in arabic without learning a thing are better than those who read the translation and can access God 's message.

tbaba1234: Ahlul sunnah means those that follow the way of the messenger. The quran tells us that we should follow the best of examples.

You can choose not to use labels, but the quran asks you to follow the example.

As regards the topic, the op has not presented the full picture.

Ok tbaba12345, the name you call yourself is irrelevant. The question is what do you believe and preach. What more do we need from the OP? Is there anything like "Death for apostates/murtads" in the System of God? Also isnt it true that majority of muslims and their clergymen who claim to follow the messenger, put apostates to death? Is there a single verse in the Qur'an that orders for killing apostates? All through the narrations in the final testament,killing in the name of religion is a common practice of disbelievers. 'Abraham', the pagans wanted to kill for rejecting their religion,Moses, Jesus, and even Muhammad face death threats from the disbelievers.

tbaba1234: I think it is important that people get proper knowledge in Islam before talking. What are 'Quran only' muslims? That is against the Quran itself.

Usermane, You can not seperate the Quran from its context or the example of the messenger (peace be upon him).

@Rilwayne.. I think you should get deeper understanding on these issues first before making posts.

Brother, what is "ahlul sunna" or "sunni?", it goes against the scriptural teachings.

Please address the OP, let us not derail the thread. "Killing of apostates by muslims", that is the bone of contention.
Peace.

Rilwayne001: There are two Islams in the world today. (1) There is
the Islam of the Qur'an, which is one of the great
religions of the world. It is a religion of peace (not of
pacifism nor of aggression) and of divine justice (not
of divine tyranny nor of divine intimacy). (2) There is
also the Islam of the terrorists, who are murderers and
assassins, especially murderers of their fellow
Muslims. Shiites and Sunnis hate each other for their
"heresies" more intensely than either hates the West. (The London bombings deliberately targeted Muslim
neighborhoods.)
Which of these two Islams (of the Qur'an or of the
terrorists) will prevail? God only knows. But to
whateverextent the first Islam is from God, it will prevail
because God will prevail.

It is an understatement to say that only those who turn to christianity or atheism get put to death. Shocking enough, orthodox or traditional muslims consider even "Qur'an alone" muslims as apostates and mark them for killing. This is why you hardly find scholars of Qur'an alone,the true Islam openly preaching except on internet and a few cases in the West where Qur'an 2:256 is applied even more than the Middle east. Such muslims put their life at a risk because they are termed as apostates to be killed by traditional muslims.

Yes, if there is love btw us. Single moms tend to be more mature and considerate, genuine and have no time for mind games

That is why am not so much into first person shooters. You see COD is bad for gaming industry. It lack a decent game story like most fps. To topple that it is too repetitive,with only little differences btw the installments. Yet COD fanboys have been rewarding the franchise with record breaking profits per release. As a consequence most game developers want to invest more on COD styled games instead of creating something new, that will give gamers a better and fresher experience than COD.

[quote author=Somorin#1]I am a christian but I have an interest in the muslim religion.

I have been listening to Buhario Omo Musas various wasi on YouTube.

I can hear Alfa Itakure answer the calls of Alfa Buhari by saying Nam, which I think translates to yes.

But sometimes he also answers by saying what I think is Karmakat Allah. What does this mean?

Thanks.[/quote]Good day friend. I do admire your quest for the truth. I do not know the meaning of "karmakat Allah". Sorry to bother you though.
But i got an advice. Please and please, whenever you want to learn about Islam,verify or confirm from the Qur'an, the final testament and the sole book the prophet preached(Qur'an 6:19). Please be objective of what you hear muslims or non muslims say about Islam, don't just as a learner accept the words of imam, sheikh or mullah without investigating(Qur'an 9:31-34). This is why God enjoy mankind to study the Qur'an before accepting it as His scripture(Qur'an 4:82) rather just accepting it on blind faith.

[quote author=Bleble-swag]I want 2 knw why ugly girls ve better, handsome, caring n loving guys n vice-visa but d beautiful/handsome 1s dnt? Am asking cos ve seen many many cases lik dat wher ugly girls always ve d best n d pretty 1s dnt n vice-visa. Has any1 seen such? but WHY??[/quote]yeah, quite puzzling. Seen a lot of cases like that. Seem like the law is this; "the less attractive a lady is, the more attracted she is to looks in men". I think lot of handsome guys are kind of shy or reserved, and with this they don't get the attention of very pretty ladies who are constantly occupied with several loud guys. Hence less beautiful ladies with just very few or guys around tend to get drawn to and go after the handsome guys.

Thanks man. I hope those muslims who subscribe to teachings that condemn apostates to death will learn. Killing apostates was actually an innovated jewish ruling which 'muslims' who did not truely accept the Qur'an, adopt post prophet Muhammad 's death.
Last week i watched a gruesome video of muslims slaughtering an apostate while chanting: "Allahu akbar" and reciting their "khuthba". And long before then i 've been hearing of countless of such satanic acts perpeterated by the so called muslims.
Only disbelievers, evil and wicked persons believe in killing of apostates.

Sissie: @usermane, let me ask you when the verse was revealed, what did the wives of the prophet and sahaba's did, how did they understood it and covered? Did they cover their heads and hair or not.

You do not understand Arabic, and read the Qur'an in English which is not fully adequate to understanding the Qur'an, I do not know what makes you think you can read the Qur'an in English or Arabic and become an authority on it because you said the translators are wrong in the translation of the dress code verses, how did you come to this conclusion, please I would like to know where you studied, who you studied under? To give us your translations

Please be very careful when you say what is allowed and what is not, don't forget we will be called to account for our actions. I know you have a problem of being called a Muslim, but I will give you the benefit of doubt and address you as one, until proven otherwise.

Thanks Sissie. I shouldn't be back to hijab issue but you drew me back. What people of the past did with these verses can never be ascertained. That is history, way beyond one 's grasp. Rather focus on the clear verses yourself. Look, i have mentioned everything in the previous post. The ball is in your court. I don't expect anybody to take my post without confirming it(Qur'an 17:36). If you confirm it 'true', fine. If u confirm it 'wrong' fine.
And o yes, there are translators that do not translate khimar as head scarf or zeenatahunna as jewelries. Yes, i mean scholars, versed in both arabic and english languages. This is not mere opinion of mine.

Peace be upon you.
The fact is, every sect have their own hadiths books. The only way to resolve the sect issue is for everyone to return to the Qur'an, the only Book, the Prophet swore to have preached with(Qur'an 6:19). The earliest hadith book came 200+ years after the messenger 's death. This is serious joke! A book meant to explain the Qur'an only surface nearly 2 centuries post prophet 's death? The messenger of God was an intelligent man. He knew people would fabricate teachings in his name after his departure(Qur'an 6:112) and therefore banned the writting of hadith, fully aware that the Qur'an is sufficient for us(25:31). Infact, that is the only thing he knew of the future. Abubakar, Umar, Uthman, Ali who muslims revere so much as role models did not record any hadiths.
The messenger wount complain that his hadith or sunnah has been deserted like an abudawood hadith state. The prophet 's only complain on Judgement day will be that Qur'an has been deserted(Qur'an 25:30). This is exactly what the muslims did right after his death, passing it down to us.

Once a non muslim debated with me over Islam permitting sex slaves. He tried to defend this claim by citing various hadiths that authorize muslims to own sex slave along with their wives. I insisted that hadith books have nothing to do with Islam. Then he started speaking like sunnis and shiites, he said i need hadiths to understand Qur'an, quoting the common poorly interpreted verses, like "obey the messenger" or "the messenger is an excellent example for mankind". It was only till i proved to him with even hadiths,common sense and Qur'an verses that hadiths books were never authorised by God that he finally gave up.

I thank God recently, no more will i accept pope,reverend,mullah or sheikh between me and God, no more will i accept messengers between me and God. All messengers of God came to eliminate the clergymen. They didn't come to be intermediary between man and God. They lived according to the complete, fully detailed and self explained scripture they delivered without adding to or taking away anything from the Book.

deols: The antispam bot has been banning you. It is wrong to assume that anyone would ban you for no just reason.

And stop derailing threads with your 'they are victimising me' posts. Doing that can get you a real ban.

OMG! How was i to know that? Please am sorry for the assumption. Thanks.

Good morning, Al baqir. You know, i do like your threads. For one, you allow for exchange of alternate views without pointing accusing fingers on anyone. So lets please keep this up.
Do you know that enemies of Islam love hadiths books even more than sunnis and shiites? I, God willing shall open a thread on that.
Do you know that for decades and centuries after Ali(r.a) 's death,the shiites did not come up with any compilation?
Several times in the hadith book, it is stated that the Prophet disallowed writting of hadiths. How is it that for over 2 decades, the Prophet banned the hadith writting for fear of mixing up hadiths with Qur'an, when with the kind of man he was, he could find alternative means for recording hadiths without them getting mixed with Qur'anic verses?
Qur'an 59:7, you quoted is not talking about hadith. Its context is distribution of spoils of war. Pls read the whole verse again.
Qur'an tell us that it is explicit,easy to understand,explained in detail and the righteous are highly welcome to read and apply it.
Again is there a single hadiths where the Prophet explicitly taught anyone how to fully perform salat? No, most of them are varying accounts of persons who claimed to have seen the Prophet offer salat.

Salaam.
Good day ayeen02. You give the impression that you either didn't read my thread 's op or you just glanced it for 6.5 mins. Please if am right, go back to it and study it vigorously. The quoted verses are no figment of my imagination. They are verses of the Statute Book.

Back to hijab issue.
Qur'an 24:31
"Khimar" in the verse has been generally distorted to mean headscarf. According to typical arabic or Qur'an, a "khimar" is a cover or shield of any material. A "khimar" could be a scarf,veil,headtie,jacket,carpet,curtain,wrapper,skirt, shirt e.t.c. The commandment is; "draw your veil/covering/clothes over your bosom", which simply means, cover your chest or bosom with your outfit. The word head,hair,face or neck wasn't mentioned in the verse. You can see the emphasis is soley on covering the bosom from lustful gaze.
Towards the end of this verse, we read; "do not strike your feet to draw attention to your hidden ornaments(zeenatahuna)...". Ornaments/beauty/adornment in the context of this verse refer not to jewelries but to attractive, lust inciting body parts like bosom,thighs and butt whose shape and size can be outlined by striking the feet while walking. Certainly jewelries like ring,necklace or wristwatches' revealing have nothing to do with striking one 's feet.

Qur'an 33:59
simply further explain 24:31 without adding more rulings. It is simple, pull or lengthen your garment or outfit over yourself to cover your unclothedness and this can be achieved by even just a skirt and blouse. Just ensure they aren't skin-fit. Outer garments or cloak is whatever is worn over the undergarments(vests,pants e.t.c). Provided the outfit is not skimpy or short, the extent of lengthening it or drawing it over the body is the personal choice of any woman.

Note my friend,how your translation is full of parenthesis to further explain the verses. The Qur'an is made up of 6348 verses, no parenthesis, no footnotes. What you find in the parenthesis are the translator 's own word,not GOD 's. They could sometimes be wrong as in the above dress code verses.

Pls,let 's stop this attitude of self righteousness. Recall righteousness is the best clothing Qur'an 7:26. One must not try to appear righteous, one must try to be righteous. A righteous woman doesn't have to wear niqab,abaya or khimar to be respected. That she is not using the above garment doesn't mean she is unclad or immoral. If as a woman you insist you must don a khimar,abaya or niqab to look decent, different story, but to claim these specific dresses are scriptural commandments is to err. Even the Torah and Gospel didn't ask women to cover their head,hair,face or all over from head to toe.

Al baqir.
Salaam friend.
True talk guy. Can you believe the Op is an extract of "hikmah" or divine revealations beside the Qur'an the Prophet recieved?
Yes, we must obey the messenger but obeying the messenger is only obeying what he obeyed: The Qur'an. Yes the Prophet is an excellent example to mankind but his true examples can only be found in Qur'an. Obeying the messenger is not obeying Bukhari or whoever 's work compiled centuries after the Prophet 's death without any authorisation from GOD or His messenger. If you notice carefully no where in the Qur'an will you find such info like those covered in the Op,gotten from the hadith books.

And the ahlul bayt, how many hadith did Ali compile? Ali and his followers then were strict monotheists, carrying on with the Prophet 's legacy, the Qur'an. Infact i know of a hadith were Ali(R.A) asked his followers or muslims to go and destroy the hadiths they were spreading, reminding them that communities before theirs were punished because they followed the so called sayings attributed to their messengers, abandoning the Scripture in the process.

ummsulaym: Now, that part was very funny... But Alhamdulilah you didn't do it



usermane sounds like some kind of Quraniyya guy(or bro), just that he ends up not presenting even the Qur'an well again(now, that's a double fault)... He needs admonishment, explanation and so on... I surrendered being harsh on him cuz harsh is not gonna work... I feel for him though(just like I feel for myself too)... May Allah guide us



That (especially the bolded) sounds like it's from bro Ali who is also a shiat-Ali(off NL)... He is a good brother from another sect...

But sectarianism aside, bro Al-qaim/Al-baqir, are you all this 'impossible?' why I ask is that bro Ali has been known for a year, he keeps telling me this same thing you people post on NL and I keep saying I've heard and I appreciate... When next we meet, he will explain all over again. Even with annoying points, I endure to listen(my weakness), yet he didn't stop and same, I didn't complain... Just last month he got angry and said ''the hardest people to change are people like you'' so me too con vex small... Last last, he said if he couldn't do it, he believe someone else will cuz he can't stand me dieing with my present beliefs, so I just told him I pray he doesn't die with his present beliefs too but I can stand it cuz his judgement is not mine... Now I ask again, why being so impossible?

Salaam
ummsulaym. We tend to clash often don't we? And it is because of the differences and beliefs. Am not a quraniyyun please. Am a muslim, a monotheist who accept the Qur'an as the sole and only message delivered from God through the final prophet; Muhammad. There are lots of evidences, proofs and verses from the Qur'an itself on why muslims should simply follow the Qur'an alone. So it is just too early to say am a misguided dude.

Again, you said i fail to interprete the verses of Qur'an correctly, i disagree with that. Please point out a single verse i misinterpreted. Please go back to my last thread please and read the Op between the lines along with a translated copy of Qur'an beside you. After then, you are free to call me a criminal.

babylolaroy: normally, i dont av spare time to reply jerks buh today nd right nau i do. mr. misspelt username, ds thread is for MUSLIMS and we are trinna do some conversation right here. this is not a church shepherd gathering. you should face front when you arenot directly affected..lets solve and resolve ds without ur awful face around here. pls

Salaam,
You simply despise me don't you? And perhaps there may be nothing i can do about that.
I am no christian or non muslim as you think, neither am i a quraniyyun like ummsulaym speculated. Am a muslim. You clearly don't like my thread because it criticised some of your core beliefs, sorry if you got offended though. But Babylolraroy, why not settle down, devote two hours to read and digest the Op of my thread. Perhaps you will find that am not lying and my evidences especially the verses justify my write up.

Peace be upon you guys.
I beg,please twice in the last 5 days i have been banned in this section. I admit my last thread was very critical of your beliefs but forgive me if i offended you. If you believe you are on the right path then you can stand and refute any criticism. Nobody attempted that, yet every one start hating on me ever since.

The best thing you can do for this section is to loosen up a bit. Allow for in-thread debates on any matter, let persons share their opinions, views and understandings backed up with evidences. Let readers compare the evidences and pick out the truth. Truth always stand clear from falsehood and i believe no one here is below 18 years. If you say "this" is forbidden, why? If another say "this" is permissible, then why? Show your evidence. Don't just instantly conclude one person is wrong based on your belief or experience and condemn him by accusation, hidding posts or banning without giving him a shot at providing his evidences. Qur'an 2:256, 4:140, 17:36

Theeni, i think i won't be coming to continue our talk anymore. As you ought to know, my last post was hidden and i was banned for 3 days for providing evidence for what i understand.

Very good guys. Isn't this why you shouldn't be offended to see some muslims accept the Qur'an alone and reject the hadiths as an alternative source of Islamic rulings? Infact Al-Baqir, this is just the tip of the iceberg. Wait untill you scan Jami at tirmidhi,Ibn majar e.t.c, then you won't believe your eyes. I just pray and hope atleast a few muslims will see these books for what they truely are.

Good evening.
Theeni, i though you were asking a question, in the first place.
The verses of the Qur'an are precise.

Chapter 2, verse 173 tells us that 'dead animals' are forbidden. It didn't say 'meat of dead animals',hence we know that dead animals include their bones,fat or meat,all must be avoided e.t.c . But when it came to pig it didn't say 'pig' is forbidden, it said 'meat of pig' is forbidden. There is a difference here. 'Pig' and 'pig meat' are not the same. One is general,the other is specific.

Even the Qur'an distinguish fat from meat, considering them as two separate parts, mutually exclusive. This is evident from the fact that God prohibited for the jews, certain fats of cattle and sheep whose meat he permitted for them(Qur'an 6:146). Fat may exist in animals alongside with meat,but fat is not from the meat itself. Fat and meat could be separated,otherwise God would not prohibit fat and permit meat of the same animal as in the above verse.

[quote author=Paris_Love]Are they ever authentic?
I see babylolraroy has answered you (she's a muslim) besides the story from the verse is from pre islamic era and like dr Arewa pointed out, the jews had a lot of women leaders or rulers.[/quote]Did you check the verses i referred you to? The Queen and her people were sun worshippers originally. And who told you babylolraroy is the only muslim here? Islam did begin right from Adam. Don't think it started with the Muhammad. Muhammad 's only duty was delivering the Qur'an.
PEACE.

babylolaroy: Damn you usermane. Are you a learner?. Must you impose your phucking crazy ideas quoting Quran like you know whatsup?..Damn!.

Queen sheba ruled when she was a kafir. She embraced islam and married solomon. that was the end of her rule...Sulaiman was the king and she was merely a queen not the ruler
jeez!! yu'll learn only when Munkar and Nakir teach you the hard way!!

Ok, where did the Qur'an tell us she resigned after embracing Islam? And then point to me a verse that GOD forbid women from ruling. U see, you don't have. Listen, am not here to force anyone to believe me. Am here like you,to tell the truth.

vedaxcool: The op was used and now has been dumped, the same people who tolerated his thread for this long did so not because they are interested in learning anything about Islam but simply because it mainly conveys what they want to hear, had this thread been about why you should be a muslim or Muhammad pbuh , this thread would have been thrown within few seconds of its arrival, why? Allah says,

“They intend to put out the Light of Allaah (i.e. the religion of Islam, this Qur’aan, and Prophet Muhammad) with their mouths. But Allaah will bring His Light to perfection even though the disbelievers hate (it).

He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islamic Monotheism) to make it victorious over all (other) religions even though the Mushrikoon (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah and in His Messenger Muhammad) hate (it)”[al-Saff :8-9]

Forget them. Have been betrayed or dumped in the past even by people i know personally. GOD will guide the sincere ones.

beejaay: Ahah they av tranfered d thread down here (i don dey c warnings). @op bye bye cos i dnt wanna b banne or av my post hidden for silly reasons.. Kei this ppl ehn

Let 's hope they don't. Our thread is not offensive to any religion or any one. All protocols have been observed. No one has broken the code. We come in peace.

Sissie: Theirs no compulsion in religion, truth stands clear from falsehood.

Seriously!!!! We the "gang", most of us had civil conversation on here, we even agreed that some of what you wrote had some truths in it. And you are here writing about how if it was Muslim section your thread would have been closed, this is so not true Shia's thread are still in the section and we do argue and discuss about it, the mod your talking about even recommended al baqir thread and it made front page.

If we had refused to comment, it would be tagged as us not wanting to discuss. You wish you would have been dealt with in islamic gatherings.

Sissie, I apologise to you and your friends, maybe one day you 'll b able to forgive me. Sorry for terming you guys as a "GANG", i will modify that post.
You know, it seem like i lost my attention in the topic and got carried away by those who made false allegations and accusations against me. I let their words get the better of me and regret my retort. This is a lesson i have learn't; in defending the truth one must always hold on to politeness. I do appreciate your attitude even though you were on the opposing end. Keep it up.

It is true that the topic seem controversial. But please you have the Qur'an at home, try to verify all the verses i recommended in the OP. The verses are the major evidences. As a muslim, you are responsible for yourself, you have to be objective and don't think the majority is always right. I opened this thread as an eye-opener,an avenue to analyse and correct these misconception. If you disagree, forward your evidence, afterall i never thought for once in the past that that i haboured any misconception in Islam till recently.

Some persons thought this is a fitnah. Well, what can i say? Verify the verses first then you can proceed from there.

One reason why i didn't open the thread here was due to past experiences here with the mods hidding a topic like this. I hope things get better for the sake of GOD.

Ummsulaym. I apologise if you are upset by this write up but i wouldn't have done this if there were no verses to boost my points. U may see me as the bad guy now,but did you check my references; the verses of Qur'an and historical facts? You should try that if you haven't. And yes, i seek for knowledge, and i love sharing it. That is how i managed to pull these together. Note that when you seek for knowledge, you ask for GOD 's help(Qur'an 20:114), you meet different persons whether they are scholars or not, and you don't forget your brain,don't be carried away by looks,popularity or eloquence. And that is how i arrived at this. This not a coup by me.

And if i had mentioned the OP, in a muslim gathering,i could have been dealt with.
Though i never rubbished learning/memorising Qur'an in Arabic, i dealt with the cons. We don't have to go over that anymore,you can re-read misconception 02. Those reading the Qur'an frequently in their language learn a lot of things apart from the laws,warning and glad tidings,drawing them closer to GOD. Those who read in the language they don't understand, we have seen a lot of them. They plan to learn arabic in later days or read the translation later, but in the end some of them get distracted and forget their target,some get misled, and others passed away before their mission is accomplished. And what about sincere christians trying to verify the author of Qur'an(as GOD) by studying it(Qur'an 4:82)? Do they have to learn arabic too? Or do they go about inquiring from fallible clerics. They are many of such persons today, saying, "If i had learn't Islam from the muslims,never would i have embraced it".

There are lot of arabs and even non arabs, some of who understand arabic better than the mallams here. But even with that the clerics and scholars still discourage them from trying to read the Qur'an using their GOD given intellects. You have learnt arabic, great! But how come you still can't read Qur'an for the meaning. Most of them are talked into further learning the countless volumes of hadith books as another prerequisite before they can think of reading Qur'an for the meaning. And with the countless volumes of hadiths and then the commentaries, this is hard work. I doubt if even Imam Bukhari could have touched Imam muslim or Abudawood 's compilation and vice versa. Are you the one going to learn through all of them?

The consequence is gradual deviation from the gradual of GOD

.....

beejaay: the two questions u raise aren't mutually exclusive.. they both go hand in hand. its now left for readers to either look into it, look beyound it or look behind it (its our call not his)..

@beejay, i really don't know how to thank you for supporting the thread against the opposers. My battery ran down and unfortunately, i slept up while waiting for my battery to be full. Otherwise, i would have taken my time. So i was right all along, if i had open this thread in Muslim section it would have been deleted long ago and few keen muslims and non muslims would have been denied their right of learning something. The mods there have not been able to curb sectarianism so far. It still spreading there. A whole lot of these misconceptions only drives muslims and non muslim considering Islam farther from GOD. And nothing is wrong with the forum other than that they are unwilling to treat issues like this justly. And how many times have people gone quietly to ask them these questions but they took it out on the person. It may be the same whether you show them verses as the OP or not, they may likely stick to the clerics' opinions. And every messenger GOD has sent, the very clerics whom people seek knowledge and guidance from were the opposers. How can christians or non muslims to embrace Islam when muslims are not ready to handle the truth about the errors of their practices.