₦airaland Forum

Now that I have shared scriptures showing Abraham to be father t the Jews as in their ancestor and of Christians in that he was the first to recieve righteousness by faith, WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

Don't be like shdemidemi who bites too much that he can chew and he ends up spilling most while swallowing the rest unchewed. What was your point?

Bidam:
Good, i wanted to take them one step at a time. It is difficult for a babe to eat bones.

Why won't you circumcise Abaham style using the SAME faith?
Faith is commendable but no amount of faith can transform an expired practice into a sound doctrine. Try slaughtering Jesus a lamb

Gombs:
[KJV] Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;:

Simple

US$ 2,500

I could have said Zimbabwe dollars but that would be insensitive

Goshen360:
In USD or ....

The best example is William Branham. Am sure you know how disappointed his adherents were when he failed to resurrect. Obsession with rapture is not a preserve for the WOF movement. Jehovah's witnesses have been at it long before the 60s.

Paul at not time expected Christ to return while he was still alive. Am sure you have in mind the resurrection verses in 1 Cor 15 and Thessalonians. His attitude was Christ CAN return during our lifetime not Christ WILL. When you say Chriat WILL,you are indirectly placing a time on his coming. If you are 50 years young, you are saying He will return in the next 60 years max. Here is one such man. A crowd pull for sure. https://www.nairaland.com/2002872/here-prophet-claiming-malachi-4s

There is a recurring theme of 'impact'. Who has had more impact between WOFers and non-WOFers? If impact means pulling most crowds, then WOFers win hands down. Does that vindicate their message? If it does, then Islam is a true faith. The 'impact' theme is basically some subtle blackmail, 'you are too few, you can't possibly criticize them because they are too big'. Watch it

nlMediator:
Do you have any evidence for the above error or is it further proof of your ignorance? WOF was thriving in the 1960s? WOF teachers thought they'll live till rapture (in any way different from what christians since Paul have thought)?

The reason some of you have little impact is that you don't want to make the right investment in educating yourselves about important things about life. Once your submissions are riddled with factual or theological errors, people have little time to pay you mind. When nobody visits your blog because of the ignorance you espouse, you and your supporters run to the Gospels to misuse the scripture about narrow way and few being chosen. That scripture is not about reaching a few but about a few responding AFTER you have reached them. But you critics are hardly reaching anyone.

There is an obsession with outing monikers. For the record am no Naija man. Anyone who can figure me out gets $2,500

BabaGnoni:
What is going on here?
Have I missed some action?
Who has been thinking BabaGnoni was WinsomeX?
Not too long ago someone too was thinking BabaGnoni and vooks was same
Then it became shdemidemi is vooks
- suspicious minds? paranoia?

Two are better than one, it is allowed to defend your disgraced.just tell Joagbaje to pay and to never make dumb dares

Gombs:
Bro bidam, no need engaging vooks, ignore him to avoid derailment of a beautiful thread as this.

@OP



Nice words

Bidam,
1. Abraham is the physical father of the Jews/Israel- Luke 16:24,30,John 8:33,39,53
2. Abraham is the spiritual father of ALL who come to Christ by faith for just as he beloved and it was accounted to him righteousness, we believe in Jesus and his righteousness is imputed on us- Gal 3:29, Rom 9:7

So a Jew can call Abraham Father and a believer can call him father. Do you now understand why you were being asked to clarify your fatherhood question?

Goshen360:
SMH literally! !!

Did Joagbaje open a thread to dare SirJohn? Should I open a new thread to remind him of his obligation?

Bidam:
And you are the guy who forgot to take his medication before logging onto the forum. Did you read the rule 1 before posting?

Tithing is a principle? So who decides what part of a command are principles and what should be done away with?
Jews tithed 22% per annum and a Christian reading that conjures up a 10% monetary tithe for a principle!

trustman has clearly answered this question before. Look up his posts, no time to waste repeating what is right a few posts before yours.
Galatians 3:10 is quoted from Deut 27:28. There was a curse for breaking the least of the Laws. To avoid the curse you had to keep ALL of the Laws. Jesus removed the necessity of keeping the Laws. Righteousness then was only through obeying the law. Now it is by faith in Jesus. This is why you no longer offer animals,circumcise,keep the feasts....

Once again,the principle behind tithing is not realized by tithing. How comes for the first 400 years NOBODY saw this principle behind tithing and applied it as you are doing? It is like circumcision. Do you live out that principle by undergoing circumcision? Of course you don't. The other day you talked of circumcision of the mind or something

Bidam:
Have you ever heard of the word "principle"? Although Christians are not under the Law, can you deny that the New Testament apostles used the Law to teach Christian doctrines which Christians cannot reject today? Look again at the weightier matters of the Law in Matthew 23:23 - are they part of your Christian life or not?

What artificial distinction are you on and about? Did Abraham's tithes have anything to do with God or not? For FOLKS LIKE YOU AND WINSOMEX who hide under Gal 3:10 to throw out the Law as having absolutely no part in their Christian lives, the question is: would they also throw out what Jesus termed the weightier matters of the Law in Matthew 23:23? To cast out the Law and yet draw from what is cast away is dubious and inconsistent.
It is indeed pointless to make you see anything in "principle" where you have already made up your mind to read only the 'letter' in a legalistic manner.
You fail to add that Abraham almost sacrificed his son Isaac. Like i keep repeating, I don't argue tithes on a mandatory commandment or law." It is a principle and not by a legalistic exercise.

You are the one abusing people here all over. You have anger issues and you need to deal with them in prayer my brother.
I raised it here because This is Joagbaje's thread and this is the first time in a long time he is resurfacing.
I could have enquired from you first before posting here if you would take offence, but then again, I never consult you before posting

Bidam:
Why spoil the thread? Why get angry? You could have posted on sir John thread. Why the mischief? What is wrong with you?

The reason I invoke Genesis tithing is because some of the pro-tithers when it has been powerfully proven before them that Mosaic Laws on tithing are not binding on Christians, they fall on pre-Mosaic tithing and claim that they Re tithing 'by faith' like Abraham and not 'by Law' according to Moses.

They draw an artificial distinction between Mosaic practices and Pre-Mosaic practices.

They use this to avoid admitting that whatever they are doing does not line up with Moses. For instance, Mosaic tithing is ,strictly from scriptures and history, on farm produce and not money though the same was available. How do you convince yourself that your present monetary tithing has any scriptural basis? Fall on Abraham and claim that he tithed from war spoils which obviously we're not agricultural.

To see the folly of their argument, would you offer an animal sacrifice 'by faith' like Father Abraham as opposed to 'by Law' like Moses?
Do you see why I used circumcision? When the early church censured circumcision, it was circumcision given to Abraham and amplified in the Law of Moses.

Bidam:
Was Abraham tithes mandatory? Why compare the two?

I compare the two because they are quite similar. Can't you see that? Here is how;
1. Both predate Moses
2. Both are included in Moses
3. Both have at different points been taught as MANDATORY, circumcision in the first century, tithing from 4th century to date

It follows that learning how one was tackled in the scriptures can help us resolve the other. I would never repeat myself except to help you understand my point of view. Please feel free to refute any of what I have said.

Cheers bro

Bidam:
First and foremost does any one teach here that external circumcision is a mandatory requirement for believers to be saved? Why compare the two? Or have you not heard where Paul says uncircumcision is nothing and circumcision is nothing? This your weak recycled arguments is getting tiresome and boring.

My brother,
Did he wager on PM?
What has drugs got to do with this? Are you trying to insult me?

Bidam:
Why don't you PM this guy? Why spoil the thread? Yet you will get angry when someone request you take a pill.

Did you pay up SirJohn's 500K cash for debunking your miracle?

Joagbaje:
[size=2pt][color=Red]Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified (.There’re two destinies for every man. [/color]

There’s the natural destiny and there’s the divine destiny. Natural destiny is controlled by such factors as the family in which you were born, your country of birth, the people you’re associated with, the information you’ve received or education, etc. All of these have an impact on your natural destiny.

For example, there’re some who are rich, not by virtue of any achievement of their own, but because of the family to which they were born. That’s their natural destiny.

Natural destiny, however, does not exclude the divine mighty hand of God; He has the generic involvement in the world. The world belongs to Him. But some in the world are His creatures, while some others are His children. He has a good will for all His creatures—everyone in the world—but more specifically, He has a divine destiny for His children—everyone who’s born again.

The divine destiny for any man only begins when he’s born again. That’s when God becomes your Father and starts leading you. That’s when He sends His Holy Spirit to live in you and to guide you. The Holy Spirit then takes residence in the quarters of your heart.

You’re thus different from the world. Like Jesus said in

[color=Red]John 15:19
…I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.[/color]

Everyone that’s born again is not of this world. You’ve been chosen out of this world by Jesus. He’s got His mark on you.

How can you tell whether a man is fulfilling natural destiny or fulfilling divine destiny? It's simple: who gets the glory in his life? In the things he does, who gets to be honoured? Who receives the praise? Whose power is behind what he does? For whom does he live? If all the answers turn out to be the Lord, then that's divine destiny, according to the Bible.

[/size]

Same reason cocks crow in the morning. and not afternoon or at sunset
And dogs do bark during the day as well

And nobody tarred nobody with the same brush
It is the message not the messenger that is confronted. Names are mentioned to demonstrate the reality of the subject; MANIPULATION

What do you think are the consequences of teaching tithing as MANDATORY? I compare tithing to circumcision. Somebody taught that circumcision was mandatory for believers in the first century. The disciples never responded by teaching that it was not mandatory, they censured it completely because it was both irrelevant and burdensome for the Church especially Gentiles.

An honest minister ought to do the same, not teaching refurbished modernized version of Torah. Tell the members to give according to Pauline formula of 'without compulsion' as 'you purpose in your heart'.

Bidam:
[size=3pt] I did apologize in my previous post to you. You also are guilty of same.
Your assertions here are your opinions if not backed by facts and statistics. The truth is there are many pastors who teach tithes as voluntary, while others argue that it is mandatory. I have facts to back this claim. National Evangelical Association (NAE) carried out a survey on whether church leaders feel that tithing is "required" from Christians. The result is that 58% do not teach that tithing is "required" while 42% actually do. You may want to see the following -

The point is that there is an overwhelming majority of Christian leaders in Western churches that tithe and teach it on voluntary basis.

Now back to our home turf, i saw your quotes of some Nigeria pastors( even though you are not a nigerian) who insist that tithes are compulsory and I don't agree with some views there, but it smacks of gross dishonesty on you and your cohorts to insist and brand that all pastors who even remotely mention tithes/tithing from within Nigeria must by default be preaching a "mandatory" or "compulsory" tithes.

Now i am not omniscient so i don't know all the pastors who preach tithing to their congregations in Nigeria; but let me draw from a source even on this forum where a Nigerian pastor stands as an example of voluntary tithes: Pastor Tunde Bakare of LatterRain Assembly -[/size]


So i don't think every pastor who preaches tithes should be tarred with the same brush.

Should a Christian be forced to stop circumcision?

Gombs:
Should a Christian be forced to stop tithing?

BabaGnoni:
Do you agree with Mike Munroe that the words of Jesus are greater than that of paul?
I don't know any Mike Munroe nor familiar with any work, writing or words of Mike Munroe.

[size=4pt]Do you agree that all paul wrote in the epistles were mere letters and should be read as such?
Epistles are letters so the affirmative answer is, all Paul wrote were epistles (i.e. letters), and they should be read as such.
Mind you, these letters were written and sent to intended or specific churches
The contents of the letters were:
1) About him preaching the Kingdom
2) About him settling wranglings
3) About him, giving advices, expressing a view on ongoing issues within the church or judgement formed about something
and where applicable he ALWAYS clearly states it is his opinion and not necessarily God's

So Paul's letter should be read with intent to make informed choices
- informed decisions are readily made when reading Paul's letters

Do you also agree that the preaching of the Kingdom of heaven is for the present church?
This seems like an ambiguous question but will attempt proffering an answer(s) nonetheless
The preaching and by default, the proclaiming, the teaching and by default, the explaining of the Kingdom of Heaven is for the "church", (i.e. the "church" even to the end of the age)

This is on the condition that you continue in faith without being moved from the solid foundation of the hope that the Good News contains.
You've heard this Good News of which I, Paul, became a servant. It has been spread throughout all creation under heaven.
- Colossians 1:23 GOD'S WORD® Translation

Then He said to them,
"Go the whole world over, and proclaim the Good News to all mankind.
- Mark 16:15 Weymouth New Testament

The gospel, which Jesus proclaimed and explained to the multitude was about the Happy News of Kingdom of Heaven
- The priority of everyone is first to seek the Kingdom of Heaven

I have more questions but I will prefer to keep them for now and I will also appreciate if we deal with each question thoroughly before going to the next
My sentiments exactly[/size]

Nobody should prescribe to a Christian WHAT to give, they should give without compulsion (threats, manipulation) whatever they purpose in their hearts (not arbitrary FIXED percentages)

Gombs:
Exactly, it isn't a must. A quick quiz....should a Christian be forced to stop tithing? If yes, why?

Funny you know what is UnChristian but you don't hesitate prescribing schizophrenia drugs on this thread
Nobody will ever tell you that tithing is mandatory. No minister forces you to tithe or give any amount of offering. So on this account, there are no mandatory offering/giving in ANY church. Tithing is not taxation

What ministers engage in is MANIPULATION so that members part with more than they otherwise could. How is this accomplished?
1. Carrot- Promises of utopia are constantly flashed before believers as a consequence of tithing or offering. So called 'open heaven', new jobs, stable marriages, health...all these are dangled.
Believers are enticed with these things in varying degrees from church to church. And they fall for them. Giving is presented as panacea to ALL their needs

2. Stick- Believers are threatened with DIRE consequences for failing to tithe/give. They range from hellfire,curses,stagnation,losses to demonic attacks and chronic sicknesses

If your spiritual authority,somebody you trust tells you you are going to hell for failure to render to him 10% of your income what would you do?

Bidam:
Like i kept on repeating on this forum which you are deaf to is that as long as anti-tithers say that they have no problems with voluntary tithes/tithing, I don't think that some of us here will continue with this line of debate. The problem is are they actually ready to embrace it?
In a Christian's walk with God,
1. Giving is not compulsory
2. Prayer is not compulsory
3. Marriage is not compulsory
4. Eating is not compulsory
5. Singing is not compulsory
6. Fasting is not compulsory
7. Going to Church is not compulsory
. . . and a whole other things that are not 'compulsory'.

The problem with some folks here is the effort to either side or to force each person's own belief upon others. This is unchristian.

I just did.
Let's think through what he is saying.
If I told you that 1970 years ago in Palestine a man was crucified and he died a few hours later only to resurrect less than 36 hours later, how much sense would that make?
I'd have to explain to you that we have all sinned against God and He sent somebody to pay the penalty for our sins.......
I believe this is what Munroe was talking about; CONTEXT of the birth,life,death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Lack of context is why Greeks found the message of the cross foolish. They could not reconcile the idea of a god killed by men and so forth. I have seen Muslims pondering how God could die right here on NL

OLAADEGBU:
Check it out here: --> https://www.nairaland.com/1992746/late-dr-munroe-taught-jesus

Your idea of God preempting heresy bi killing Munroe is not logical either.
1.Why did He allow Islam a false religion to flourish?
2. DO we have false religions/doctrines and their proponents alive today?
3. Did God forget to take them out?

MaziOmenuko:
So since we can't find another logical cause of the plane crash, we should subscribe to the theory that his 'anti' gospel message made God to take him away before the message goes viral?

Very enlightening.

he gets away with it
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Africa/2014/1120/Kenya-miracle-healer-scandal-hits-deep-faith-in-churches

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8vhmb_bX1E

It would be more honest to say that churches are for once trying to sell value for money. Universities are cash cows. Period!

Bidam, what were the consequences of not tithing from the Torah?

WinsomeX:
I will not enter into Torah-Gospel with you here. You may find your teachers: Obadiah777, MostHigh and Jesusislord85 to tutor you a bit more on it because you might need some upbraiding on that false religion they propagate. While you are it, find out from them why they (that's if the monickers is not one individual sef) have suddenly found their voices drowned on nl. Could it be that modern Judaism does not sell?

Works of the law is works of the law: keeping Moses laws, including titjing. Please dont rewrite the bible.

You may want to refer to my last post.

My broda,

Galatians 3:10 (ESV)
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.
1. Could you briefly explain this verse.

Bidam:
Oga, the Deuteronomy curses were specific on the laws that were broken, the levites recited them to the whole of the hearing of Israel it includes but not limited to carved images,dishonour to parents,justice, sexual relations, bribery and it ended with cursed is the man who does not uphold the listed laws read by the levites, so you are wrong to generalize it that it covers the tithes. You can only fall back and make a case for obedience in deut 28. in which case tithes isn't mentioned either.

I am sorry if you got offended by my post sometimes it's pretty upsetting if you do not follow someone's line of reasoning.

Hi,
Have a good time and come share the blessings you will appropriate with all of us

LambanoPeace:
Hello all!

I've missed much. IPPC is really a priority now. My shout out to Gombs, Candour, Nannymcphee, and Vooks

#SpecialGrace

My brother,
Who ever said God has a wife and a donkey?
There is a commandment AGAINST coveting

Exodus 20:17 (ESV)
17 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.”

I ran into you asking shdemidemi to show you a single verse that has penalty for not tithing. I had shared with you the Deuteronomy 27 verse on the CURSE for breaking any Law. The same is mentioned by Paul in Galatians 3:10. Not every commandment has a specific penalty. Penalty for adultery is death. We don't have penalty for coveting. But we have the 'general' penalty of breaking any commandment. Since coveting and tithing are parts of the commandments of God, breaking tithing laws attracts a curse. Same case applies to coveting.

So, absence of a specific penalty for breaking a commandment does not mean there are no consequences.

Now you called me grossly stupi.d, recommended a drug for schizophrenia/bipolar. Why would you do this? Did you misunderstand any of what I posted?

Bidam:
Forgive me for what? or your blasphemous statement that God has a wife and an donkey?

I forgive you my brother. Have a nice weekend ahead

Bidam:
I think you need risperidone for your anomaly.SMH!

Sir,
I gave you the penalty of tithing and then I find you here aksing the same question. What answer are you looking for?

I have shown you another COMMAND about coveting, gone ahead and shared the definition of the same, and now am asking you what is the penalty for COVETING. What is the punishment for the same? Or is coveting punishable?

Bidam:
Does God have a wife,manservant or maidservant and a donkey?

Why am i stupid?

Bidam:
No your gross stupidity.

What is ridiculous sir? the commandment?

Bidam:
Ridiculous, God has now turned to your neighbor and a man?