₦airaland Forum

nairalanda1:
See why I oppose subsides. If there was no subsidy, that's N10 Trillion free for use by government.



It is a good idea, but at the end it does nothing about the essential problem with subsidy...the rising cost of production.



It isn't as high as that yet, (it is 600 billion according to some, 400 billion according to others)...but it is very high. We are a large nation, and looting and stealing aside, most people and small industries rely on generators which eat lots of money

Also, again...cost of production.




Which is why removing subsidy is needed...it ends inflation and brings about proper business practice

I mean, when there is free sugar lying on the ground, the ants gather. Free government money is a big attractor for corruption. The only way to end that is to force NNPC to work for its kudi BY REMOVING SUBSIDY.

cording to NBS, Nigeria generated 22trillion from crude oil revenue, this can run the country if well spent. This country is not rocket science to run if we put the right structure in place.

Yeah, and if the latest report from the Guardian is to be believed, a large chunk of that went into spending on debt service..WHICH resulted from the fact that we rely on oil and oil prices have never been consistently high enough for us to stay afloat.

Plus 22 trillion is not enough for a nation our size. We need ten to thirty times that. That's why I don't like our current dependency on oil,

And our debt is 49 trillion naira by the way

which is why I regard this APC government and all the other governments as failures. No diversification AT ALL.

Nigeria can pay for subsidy if We do it right.

We can't. Cost of production...cost of production. And our economy is a one trick pony.



Tax to GDP ratio doesn't make any meaning here.
The reason also has to do with the bad structure, the government doesn't want to galvanize the tax system to prompt efficiency and leakages. Must the citizens suffer for it?

Well, do you want the suffering that results when our subsidy spending is much higher than our revenue? On top of the massive debt we have accumulated over the years.

Our debt is about 49 trillion naira by the way.

Leave NHIS dude, you don't know how things work. If every Nigerian registers for NHIS, our hospitals don't have the facilities to take the volume. You are doing insurance for inefficiency. Insurance is different from susbisdy, are you thick?

NHIS works well enough. We also have PHIS and some states have their own version.

Yes it works. And one pays a fraction of the cost by the by. I work in healthcare, so I should know.

Nhis is not subsidy, do you even understand subsidy? NHIS is an insurance scheme and it's totally different from subsidy.
A subsidy is a benefit given by the government to groups or individuals, usually in the form of a cash payment or tax reduction.

In the case of fuel subsidy, government pays oil marketers part of the amount that should have been paid directly into their account. That's not how insurance scheme works.

Why don't you get anything? 🤔

nairalanda1:
Noted

So long as the cost of production keeps rising, so do subsidy costs.

cost of production will raise because you are not producing in your country. If you produce petrol in this country, you can mitigate the cost of production. Is it not why we are yearning for a refinery?
It's not hard to grasp, you don't have control per price if you don't produce it.

And so long as we pay for subsidy from oil money alone...not from tax revenue, that is a problem

it's not a problem, it has massive economic benefits if properly done. Nigeria is doing it fraudulently.
Most of Saudi Arabia's energy subsidies go to oil products, its subsidies only counts for more than $60 billion and up to 75.65% of the total energy subsidies, making it the biggest beneficiary of government support. The oil subsidies' share in the country's GDP is a percentage of 8.25%.
UAE government pays 85% fuel subsidy and they don't have issue with it because they have working database and systems to checkmate fraud

At the end, the deficit resulting eats our revenue, and then eats the borrowed money

And when that happens, the poor suffering would be excessively terrible.

For me, it is a choice between a rock and a hard place. I would that Nigeria chose neither, but at the end, it is what it is.

And yes, corruption and looting is a symptom. The Soviet and other communist countries tried what we did with subsidy...by subsidsing everything. Not only did it lead to corruption, scarcities and abuse, it even led to a massive black market.

I argue that we should not cut the profit motive in helping the poor. It ends up not benefiting anyone, the poor especially.

petrol subsidy is the benefit of citizens in oil producing countries. It's hard here because we can't checkmate fraud.
Russia. ANGOLA AND MOST top members of OPEC still subsize fuel because they do it right.
It's hard in Nigeria because our government is irresponsible

nairalanda1:
I don't deny they steal, but our tax to gdp ratio is too low for us to earn enough in taxes,plus 70% of Nigerians are not taxed because informal sector.

in 2022, Nigeria generated N10 trillion from tax according to FIRS, that's about the same amount we use in subsidizing fuel. Now if we then consider revenue from other agencies like customs that he reported 1 trillion naira. Imagine setting up a system that reduces tax leakages to the nearest minimum. They can do it but they don't want to do it.
I know you will argue that we cannot use all our tax to pay fuel subsidy, yes we can if we know the actual amount we are subsidizing for which I bet is way lower than 800billion monthly. NNPC and their cronies inflate that figure while Firs and customs deflates tax figures. The problem is our structure.

According to NBS, Nigeria generated 22trillion from crude oil revenue, this can run the country if well spent. This country is not rocket science to run if we put the right structure in place.
Nigeria can pay for subsidy if We do it right.

How is it suppose to make me suffer if government cannot deal with its revenue leakages?

Our tax to gdp is 10% . Ghana is at 24% Ghana is also getting bailed out by the IMF...because they so broke.

The stealing is bad because they steal from a small treasury.




I hear you, and I am pointing out that the problem with subsidy is the rising cost of production means rising subsidy costs year in and out.

At some point it creates a deficit in our budget, which means we cannot sustain it. And then we have to borrow.





In government institutions? THEY ARE....that's why your fees in government unis are not up to 2-3 million naira per annum, and why you were able to graduate without debt.

Health is subsidised in government hospitals. Then NHIS adds a layer of more subsides if you sign up or your workplace signs you up...and it is accepted in private hospitals too. Has been since 2005 self.

Bubu also signed a law that makes NHIS compulsory for all(yet to be implemented, as he signed it just before he left office).

Tax to GDP ratio doesn't make any meaning here.
The reason also has to do with the bad structure, the government doesn't want to galvanize the tax system to prompt efficiency and leakages. Must the citizens suffer for it?

Leave NHIS dude, you don't know how things work. If every Nigerian registers for NHIS, our hospitals don't have the facilities to take the volume. You are doing insurance for inefficiency. Insurance is different from susbisdy, are you thick?

You have to accept that Nigerian government is irresponsible and are trying to shift their cost of irresponsibility to her citizens.

nairalanda1:
Well, it is paid for by tax rates that are heavy, not from oil revenue (unless you are Libya whose oil revenue is enough for its 10 milluon people...and they produce more than we do)

they can pay for it if they are not stealing taxpayers money. Do you know how much Nigeria realizes from tax?
It still should not be our problem if they are accountable for the tax they collect. It's not your problem that government won't fight corruption and do their job.

Erm, refining petrol in most countries is a private business. Has been, and has always been. Dangote is just following what most do.

it is what subsidy is all about, government subsidizes private goods and services. Are you thick or I am not explaining well?

Education and health are subsidsed, as are the roads (no tolls).

health and education is not subsidized in Nigeria for a common citizen. Are you sure that you know how government subsidy works or you are an APC member in disguise?

nairalanda1:
Well, if it was, would you then accept subsides on your businesses for example?

The problem with subsidy is they cost a lot of money. And they are difficult to maintain. At the end, government and people cannot do anything about the cost of production.

You can have subsides in the petrrol sector by doing things like not charging heavy taxes on the petrol sector, or offering grants for them to set up businesses...but they have to have running refineries.

You can't do subsidy by forcing them to sell at a loss, and paying a subsidy that comes from our budget, and, as the cost rises, creates things like deficits in the budget, which have to be filled by more and more loans. We did that for 50 years, and it made things worse.

The thing called refinery, it costs money to run. And as a result, it has to make a profit to run. Can't do that with a subsidy.

Subsidy is not a private business. It's government.
Almost all governments of the world do subsidies on many goods and services, private business don't do subsidies. It's not very hard to get it you have travelled out ot understand policies in most countries.

In Nigeria today, the government now doesn't pay subsidy on anything, they are depriving you the benefits of being a citizen because they cannot do their job of fighting corruption.

Fule subsidy is not selling at lost if you do it well, it has economic benefits that helps to cushion inflation and meltdown. Nigeria is not just doing it well

nairalanda1:
Even with a reliable database, the problem with subsidy is government can do nothing about the cost of producing one liter of fuel

That cost is not fixed and it rises. As a result whenever it rises, so does the cost of subsidy. That creates issues and problems...especially when subsidy cannot cover the rising cost, therefore we have to spend more money on paying for the petrol



LOL...it isn't. And in places where it happens, most countries practice what is called an implicit subsidy..ie removing taxes on the industry,or providing grants to reduce some of the cost burden. It does not mean the industry sells at a loss, or is forced to sell at a loss, which is what we did here, and it wrecked oureconomy





Yes, and if UK tax rate was implemented here, you guys would scream. They charge a high tax, that's why they can pay for the NHS. Even then, it is running at a loss. Conservatives secretly want to privatise the thing.

Plus healthcare is subsidized in Nigeria. If you get on NHIS the subsidy increases self.




Nigeria has a high population , that our crude oil production cannot sustain. We produce less than the UAE, and have ten times, if not more than the UAE's piopulation.

We better accept that cold fact.




Ghana has crude oil deposits, which it exploits. As does Niger, and Chad. Even Benin discovered some crude. Want to try again?




I put it there because anytime I oppose you subsidy supporters, you start calling me APC supporter. Something I was backing before there was an apc self.



Good, then let us raise the tax rate and tax the 70% not taxed so that we can earn enough cash to pay for the darn thing.



So why did you say that subsidy is what you are supposed to enjoy as a citizen? You want the subsidy, abeg. No need to pretend.

gosh, you still don't get it.
Subsidy is your benefit as a citizen. It happens in many parts of the world.

It should not be your problem how government go about it, government is transferring the cost of fighting the corruption in the oil sector to you. It's not rocket sicnece 🙄

Cost of production will be lower if government fixed refineries, it should not be your problem.

nairalanda1:
Problem was, the corruption was a result of subsidy.

You bring in price controls...an integral part of subsidy, and copule it up with free money..another ingredient of subsidy, and anarchy and corruption results.

you really have said nothing new here. And whose job is it to fight the corruption, my job?
There's nothing wrong with subsidizing a commodity, the problem is the bad structure, weak institutions and the total unavailability of reliable database that gives insights to help channel the subsidy efficiently.
Subsidy for certain commodities is a norm is Most parts of the world, the problem is our weak structure.
U.K subsidizes for health, some goods and even tax for low income earners. Don't deprive yourself of basic benefits as a citizen because your government doesn't want to fight corruption.

Ghana and Niger republique both have working refineries, as does Chad. They also DO NOT HAVE and HAVE NEVER HAD subsides. As a result, their refineries can make enough profit, and work well to produce and sell fuel. And they don't have 'strong institutions' (Chad is a one man dictatorship show, Niger too has corruption issues, as does Ghana.).

These countries cannot produce enough crude oil to serve their own country, we can produce enough crude oil to serve our population and even export excess. This is why if we have a working refinery, we can easily regulate prices internally better than Benin and Ghana.
Benin and Ghana still depends on buying crude oil from other countries to refine, which means they will still be heavily dependent on international market forces.

MTN and Airtel work where Nitel failed because they were selling services , telephony and internet, at high prices...and making enough profit to build things and improve services over time.

this does not correlate, I don't get how this is directly related to oil and gas industry and how government subsidizes services.

The thing is, once you make it difficult for someone to make a profit in a business, that person is going to turn to corruption and wayo to make money. Infact the periodic scarcity that used to happen under subsidy was a means by which marketers made enough profit to survive and balance their books. They had no choice....other wise they would have gone broke. Yeah it is nice to sell fuel cheap...but there are things needed for the business to run that don't rely on subsides...and are expensive to boot.

again, there's nothing wrong in subsidizing commodities as a government if you have reliable data to track what you are subsidizing and a corruption commission that is efficient. It all boils down to the bd structure in Nigeria.

Nigeria should have removed subsides in 1993, when it was suggested strongly that we do. By now, we won;t be having this discussion....but we said no. 30 years later...

subsidy is what you are suppose to enjoy as a citizen if EFCC and ICPC were doing their jobs in the downstream and upstream sector. Don't suffer for their inefficiencies.

P.S

I do not support APC, PDP or LP. My problem with them, and with Nigerian leaders is simple. Nigeria runs a resoruce dependent economy that no longer works, and none of the parties have taken measures to get us off it

I have also backed subsidy removal since 2012, when I simply put, woke up.

you didnt comprehend my post. You failed to get the point
The point is not that we should not remove subsidy, the point is why and how we are removing it. Read it again

The removal of subsidy is obviously a result of EFCC and ICPC's inability to resolve the issue of corruption in the downstream and upstream sector of the oil and gas industry.
This is why we always talk about strengthening our institutions and making them independent but since we cannot heed to it and do the right thing, Nigerians will pay for the inefficiencies of these institutions.
When a society doesn't have the right values, they suffer and they don't even realize why they are suffering.

BTW, the manner at which Tinubu removed the subsidy without fixing any refinery is not only stupid, it's callous and wicked. If we had at least one refinery working well, internal price will not be totally controlled by international price and government can easily regulate prices without having to even subsidize it.
Is this hard for APC members understand or they are just plain stupid?

Acekidc4:
Am starting to like this Reno ooooo!! The Nigger outline some Sensible Workable Solutions. Good one Reno. That one no mean say if you Abuse Tinubu again ah no go give you back to back wotowoto oooooo. Be warned.





PATRON

you are very stupid then.
If you have travelled to Ghana or Benin Republic and see how much they pay for Data and Calls, you go appreciate Mtn.

You are more stupid because Shoprite Nigeria is now owned by a Nigerian

Jerryhare:
This is an evidence from the scripture

Psalm 14:1

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

the scripture is not evidence, that's the claim.

Ghana is not an oil producing state FFS. Tinubu supporters are mad

Jerryhare:
Says your stupidity right? Folly

no says evidence

SalamRushdie:
We warned y'all to avoid that Obidient movt so we can first remove the satanic party APC from power and shut it down but una no gree

Shut up

OLAADEGBU:
What is a crazy story, that everything evolved out of nothing?

So your God evolved out of something?

Ikaeniyan0:
The Abia state government have been paying two point four billion naira to ghost workers every year

them dey even pay?

Jerryhare:
One of the most foolish Bible reader that will turn and twist the word of God around to suit their ignorance and stupidity is what you are bro

your God does not exist

Jerryhare:
And you wey be the author of the Bible, is the writter talking about physical church?

one of thr brainless biblical literalists, that's what you re

Jerryhare:
Jesus told Peter that upon this rock I'll build my church, OP go Sunday School and Bible class you won't go

this one be Christian wey no understand Bible.
The rock Jesus was talking about was not a physical church

Nope, I can't see the correlation

preciousee17:
If I had looked at your moniker, I wouldn't have replied you...
I remember you from somewhere, you love an argument where you spit and impose your ideas and refuse to reason things out as an argument should be.
No matter what is said to you, you reply the same adamant thing without even caring to make it fall in line with the argument.
Look at how you pick up some things I say and instead of countering me, you just drop your normal punchline...

Perhaps, my reply was meant for other people to see, not you.

I'm not imposing my idea, I'm telling you that your God doesn't not exist because there's no evidence for it.

preciousee17:
Wait, if you see proof that our Yahweh exists, you will not still worship Him?
You see proof that He is the one Sovereign God, in all power and glory and you won't still worship Him?

yes, I won't worship him.

Wait first, if God was truly the one who created all the universe with His wisdom, power and glory, do you think you are meant to tell Him what to do?

is that not why he's going to be a tyrant? No one tells tyrants what to do. The Bible points to the fact that he will be a tyrant if he exist. Tyrants don't listen to people's advice

Do you think you are wise enough to understand His actions?
Do you think that eventually, He will not use His hand to force you to worship Him, or perhaps break you in pieces and throw away? (That's if He exists)

you don't need to be very wise to understand that an all knowing God who knows what you will become still wants you to suffer and pray and beg to suit his ego before he will do what he needs to do. If I had his power, I will run the universe better than him.

Wait bro let me tell you something, it's only unbelievers and false Christians who believe and complain about these kind of things. Why not believers?

Because the Christian God does not exist. The evidence says so

Oh, it's because the Lord reveals understanding of His plans to come, and comforts us too.
Our God is not a puppet that we control according to our desires, our God is a God of protocols — laws. And even He Himself obeys His laws.
Ramble all you want, you don't change anything.

your God, the Christian God does not exist. There's no evidence that such attributes of a god as described by the Bible exist. Maybe some other forms of God may exist but the Christian God particular has and can be tested to be a myth and fiction

theLet me rephrase that you analogy:
A Father created a snake, and put it in His children's room and asked them not to touch it, if not they'll be bitten and dead (he doesn't tell them that he'll revive them if things go wrong).
Then the Father also creates an antidote (a tree of life) and puts it in the same room and tells them they are free to eat that one.
But the children go ahead and takes the snake first...

This is why I said I will run the universe better than your God.
Why go through the stress of making antidotes when you can just kill the snake in your own room.
What stupid father knows that his children will get beaten by a snake and still allows that because he made an antidote? He's incompetent.

Would you allow a snake bite your child because you have an antidote for the bite? Would that make you a responsible father?

MightySparrow:
And you are convinced that God singled out blacks out of children of Ham for punishment?

Nope, I'm convinced that God is all knowing and still created bad and evil knowing fully well that humanity will choose evil but he refused to remove evil.

I'm also convinced that God who's all powerful and very capable of killing satan according to the Bible has chosen not to do it for some reasons.

I also know that he's blaming everyone for his inability to fix a wooed he created.

All these are facts presented by the bible which most Christians choose to ignore to make their religion relevant

MightySparrow:
Pick the Bible and read. You have direct access to Him there.

I did, that's where I got all these interpretation. I have read the Bible more than 5 times

Manson1:
Things nobody may tell you about marriage:

1) At some point in marriage, love may fade, you will only need commitment to survive. Especially when your partner changes from the person you knew initially.

2) As a woman, enjoy your single life now because when you marry, you will let go of certain lifestyle and enjoyment because of kids and family responsibilities.

3) As a man, when you marry , you must let go of certain life for your family reputation and integrity.

4) Attraction Wanes. This is one of the things nobody tells you about marriage. Even if you marry the most beautiful woman or a handsome man, one fine day, the attraction is sure to wane.You may feel that your partner is no longer attractive or your partner may feel the same about you. But still, the marriage can survive when you fall inlove with your partner's soul, not just the body.

4) Your in-laws are not your friends. Relate with them with caution.

5) You can stay many months without séx because of responsibilities.

6) Marriage is work, you work to make it work.

7) You need to forgive because you will always be offended.

8.) Childbirth can change your physical look or cause damage to your body. A successful child delivery is a miracle

9) If you marry someone who feels he or she is too good for you, you will suffer. The person will always make you feel less, like you're privileged to marry him/her

10) If you're a career driven person, marry a supportive partner, Marry someone who is eager to aspire. If you marry unsupportive partner or someone who settles for status quo, you will suffer alot

Cc; Walshak Kos

Let's hear from the married folks

a successful child delivery is not a miracle. That's the only part you didn't get it right

MightySparrow:
You lacked the knowledge of christian God. If you can only read the Bible with no bias, you will see that Christian God is not punishing Africans.

So tell me about the Christian God. I want to learn

[s]

Image123:
God Himself makes comparisons so that we can at least have an idea. He compares Himself to a father, a mother, a master, a rock, an eagle etc. He uses parables many times too. Otherwise, you/we stand no chance or idea understanding in the mind. Only intuitively maybe, which is much limited in our physical world.

[/s] okay

Image123:
Try making sense please. Why do you think it's not okay for the richest man on earth to expect gain from all his businesses, seeing he has billions? Why do you think planet earth is so insignificant when you don't even know 0.001% about the next planet Mars?

God is not a man, that's what you people say.
You make baseless comparisons

LordReed:
I am still stuck on why a god of such universe creating capacity needs or wants worship from one insignificant planet in a universe he created with billions of planets. Such a god would have to be incredibly immature or underdeveloped in its reasoning, if indeed it has all that power at its disposal but is so desirous of the adulation of humans.

Even the most chronic narcissist won't do this

PeterObi4LP:
If only you know what her prayers is doing for you unseen, you won't come here to expose yourself and not her. Her prayers for you is what is keeping you young man. Learn to appreciate her and not criticize her. Good or bad she is still your beloved mum.

keep quiet. Foooolllish person

IconicR:
How dare you mention Christ Embassy in such manner. Be warned

Na werey church be that church. The kind soap wey Chris dey take wash una head no be here.

hashtagged:
No one is forcing you bro, you have free will.

Just ask Jesus if you are real show yourself to me.

If you don't just remember you can do anything you want but death would surely come knocking and we all would have to answer to him you may not realize it now even though you know deep in your being it's true but remember the moment you come to him he forgives everything

Spare me all these una usual jargons

hashtagged:
1)First of all God is loving since the old testament to the New, He has been too patient to we ungrateful children. Even after Jesus death people still don't have love of God in their hearts.
you have not read the Bible obviously.

2)Second of all it's hopeless for you to know and understand God with this kind of mindset.

3)Thirdly does what is made tells who made him how to run his business?


He loved you enough to give you free will but know this "Surely every knee would bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is lord". And we would all answer for every empty words we have said.

there's evidence that such God does not exist