₦airaland Forum

damkin24:
How did he discovered the existence and numbers of the ghost workers?

its stupid for PDP to say that. No one even takes Abia PDP morons seriously.

How's he suppose to do that?

nairalanda1:
Work within the system..



I dare say that Venezuela (which loses 18 billion dollars through smuggling yearly) and Libya (which is now using airstrikes to attack smugglers) and even Angola (big issues on its borders) would love to agree with you.





Yeah, and when there are opportunites for arbitage...




So remove subsidy, and let it run at a price


Erm, was telling him that they cannot sell crude oil at cheap prices because it would mean they lose money

You sure you understood what was being discussed?



And then the government sustains a large deficit doing so, because crude oil prices rise and rise and rise.

Therein is the problem





This is a nairaland convo. Calm down.



Yes because

Saudi 10million barrels a day of crude, 40 MILLION people

UAE : 2.5-8 million barrels of crude, 14 MILLION people

Nigeria meanwhile...1.5 million barrels of crude, 220 million

We can't afford it.


See the issue.

I have a feeling that you are helinues

nairalanda1:
1.No one is saying that supporting removal of subsidy means you don't want audits to be done.

So why are they not doing it properly? We won't be in this situation if they have been doing that.

2. As Libya, Angola, Venezuela, Iran and Saudi have successfuly tackled smuggling...no wait' they haven't.

there's no single country in the world that doesn't face smuggling but Nigerias borders are bigger than the vagina of a prostitute. Smuggling is almost free for all and customs is corrupt and deliberately won't stop it. The citizens should not be meant to suffer for Thr inefficiencies of customs who are relatively properly funded.

Subsidy is a great lubricator of smuggling.

is that not why we are funding customs. Should we disband them? Why pay them taxpayers money if they cannot do their primary duties?

3.Refineries can work when there is a profit motive, or ability to make profits which can only happen when there is no subsidy

the cost of running a refinery is much lower than the cost of not running it. Do you know that we already run at lost from Importing fuel. Very silly thing we have been doing for years because of the ineptness of government.

4. In other words, you want the folks who drill for crude to supply crude at 'cheap prices' That works till they start losing money, then they stop drilling for crude, then jobs get lost, and wahala starts.

the folks are not drilling oil for cheap price. You don't know how this thing works. Stop talking.
Oil companies drills at normal price for government. Government takes the crude to it refineries and then sells to citizens at a subsidized rate. By doing this, the cost exporting the crude and importing the constituents back into this country will be saved. Government, the people and oil companies are all winners in this because our refineries made the product, our government can dictate price outside of external forces. What external market rate will only affect is the crude which we are selling to other countries.
Think, it's no rocket science.

Money has to be made for a host of things...including paying a decent wage to workers, and buying or leasing drilling equipment.

Dude, you have brains draining. Students who studied petrochemistry in Nigeria don't have jobs. This will create massive employment too. You are not making any sense here

5. In other words, price controls...has been tried elsewhere. It caused more problems. No one is going to sell at a loss.

price control is working in UAE and Saudi very well. It's not causing a y problem. Where did you get your from from?

nairalanda1:
Fight for your subsidy then.

lol

nairalanda1:
So why are you arguing with me.?

You could have saved your electrons and data then!

K.

I'm arguing because you are not getting the Point.

Yoi can even barely understand how Nhis works.

You don't even understand that government does not subsidize health in Nigeria. You think that a caeseram session should cost 15million. That's funny 😂

nairalanda1:
You want subsidy.

Stop pretending. If you didn't, why are you arguing with me then?

Gosh, I don't get some folk

I'm arguing it because government is suppose to take responsibility for the failure and not the citizens taking it.

Subsidy removal is a cure for the symptoms of the actual disease of weak institutions and massive corruption remains in the system. It won't work, if you like remove subsidy and even tax us on fuel, they will mismanage it

nairalanda1:
Then fight for your subsidy

I don't want subsidy?

Did you pass comprehension in school?
Removing subsidy without a removing bad structures is a futile venture, they will still find other ways to steal

nairalanda1:
Lol. I bow out

You want subsidy, get off this site and fight for it.

Is that clear. Ditto Tianmen.

I'm out. Got to make a living to pay for the 630 fuel

I don't want subsidy, I want a responsible government. Whether or not subsidy is removed, things will work.

This subsidy removal is a product of government failure to fight corruption

nairalanda1:
I don't trust them APC, PDP or LP either

But on subsidy, it is between a hard choice and an even harder choice.

I bow out.

It's not a hard choice, it's a force choice as a result of irresponsibility of the Nigerian government over the years.

Nigeria's revenue had it been properly managed can pay subsidy and we will still run this country.

nairalanda1:
Which in government institutions is subsidised already.

Are you telling me you paid 15 million for your wife's caesarean? Which hospital was that? Was it government run?

You don't know how Nhis works. I swear.

You should go and read up about it. Nigerian government does not subsidize Healthcare. Show me where it is in the budgets that they are paying subsidy for health?

NHIS is not subsidy, it's a scheme for those who register for it.

nairalanda1:
Yeah, there is a reason why I don't back any of the parties

It is the government fault. It's part of why subsidy is gone. Mistakes and bad government add up.

Sadly people suffer for it

It's also the reason why I don't trust APC. I don't trust them because they have shown me beyond every reasonable doubt that they are not there to make any change. It's all mirage.

And also they didn't go about removing the subsidy well.

nairalanda1:
And under NHIS ye don't pay full costs.

Plus health is subsidised. That's why you don't pay 15 million for your wife's caesarean section

without subsidy, you won't even pay 15million for it. It seems you are not married yet.

I have a feeling that you don't even know how Nhis works. You need to register for it, government don't pay automatically. Those who don't register pay full cost of any health service.

It's different from subsidy. My younger brother's wife did a cesarean session last week, without heslth insurance, we paid 250k so what are you talking about?

nairalanda1:
Our debt is 49 trillion by the by

whose fault?
Who didn't do subsidy well for the past years? Government

Who can't galvanize tax system? Government

Who is not take responsibility for the failure? Government

Who cannot fight corruption? Government

It doesn't matter, if the system is bad, if you like remove subsidy, it won't work. The problem is not the subsidy, it's the gross inefficiency in the system. It does not matter how you want to structure it, it won't work if your institutions are weak, People in the system will still find ways to steal the funds that are not paid on subsidy and the citizens will keep suffering.

nairalanda1:
Yeah you pay something into it...but in return, you get drugs at a heavily discounted rate.


Which is what happens in government run hospitals, and even for some medications eg malaria drugs.

Simples. I work there after all.



That was partly the case prior to 2016, when Government made NNPC sole importer and paid subsidy costs to them to compensate them for selling fuel at a loss to marketers.

The remaining bit went to transporters. It is why pre subsidy, prices were the same all over the country.





K.

Nhis is health insurance scheme.
Private firms run it. It's a game of robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's not subsidy.

The revenue gotten from those who pay more and didn't get to use it is used to service those who need it while the company makes profit. And the most part where Nigeria government makes payment is for her employers, even my company pay HMO for me, so that's not subsidy.

It's different. Stop talking about NHIS

nairalanda1:
Even if you were producing in country, costs will still go up...because

1.Worlkers have to be paid very well...or they japa abroad (Nigerian oil workers can and do jakpa ). Same goes for NNPCL...which is no longer a government run concern.(PIA ended that).

2.Maintenance and upgrade costs (remember we don't produce most of the stuff needed for a refinery to work well).

3.Taxes. (Ya think Lagos is letting Dangote work for free? Or FG?)




Saudi produces 10 million barrels a day and has 40 million people

UAE produces 2.5-2.8 million barrels of crude a day and has 14 million people

Nigeria produces 1.5 million (it was even under 1 million 3 years ago) barrels a day and has 220 million people.

See why Saudi can afford subsides, and UAE and we can't?

Libya produces 1.9 MILLION barrels of crude a day, and has 8 million people


And see why our government is not working? We need to diversify our economy and raise taxes before we can afford subsides. Harsh , but true.



Angola has less than 40 million and is struggling with subsides, and is broke ass poor. And they get a lot of petrol smugglied out of the country...especially to Namibia

Russia is a DIVERSIFED economy, with constant power supply. Something Nigeria should do, but our government has not done.

How can price go up uncontrollably when you are producing product and you have a the resources to manufacture it in your country? 😂

Nigeria currency revenue stands at more than 22billion, and cost of subsidy is 10billion.
You are bent on protecting governments inability to be responsible. If Nigeria has been doing the right thing with subsidy before now, we will not have a single issues with it.

You need to see that this is not working because government and those working with government irresponsible and government cannot fight the corruption

nairalanda1:
See why I oppose subsides. If there was no subsidy, that's N10 Trillion free for use by government.



It is a good idea, but at the end it does nothing about the essential problem with subsidy...the rising cost of production.



It isn't as high as that yet, (it is 600 billion according to some, 400 billion according to others)...but it is very high. We are a large nation, and looting and stealing aside, most people and small industries rely on generators which eat lots of money

Also, again...cost of production.




Which is why removing subsidy is needed...it ends inflation and brings about proper business practice

I mean, when there is free sugar lying on the ground, the ants gather. Free government money is a big attractor for corruption. The only way to end that is to force NNPC to work for its kudi BY REMOVING SUBSIDY.

cording to NBS, Nigeria generated 22trillion from crude oil revenue, this can run the country if well spent. This country is not rocket science to run if we put the right structure in place.

Yeah, and if the latest report from the Guardian is to be believed, a large chunk of that went into spending on debt service..WHICH resulted from the fact that we rely on oil and oil prices have never been consistently high enough for us to stay afloat.

Plus 22 trillion is not enough for a nation our size. We need ten to thirty times that. That's why I don't like our current dependency on oil,

And our debt is 49 trillion naira by the way

which is why I regard this APC government and all the other governments as failures. No diversification AT ALL.

Nigeria can pay for subsidy if We do it right.

We can't. Cost of production...cost of production. And our economy is a one trick pony.



Tax to GDP ratio doesn't make any meaning here.
The reason also has to do with the bad structure, the government doesn't want to galvanize the tax system to prompt efficiency and leakages. Must the citizens suffer for it?

Well, do you want the suffering that results when our subsidy spending is much higher than our revenue? On top of the massive debt we have accumulated over the years.

Our debt is about 49 trillion naira by the way.

Leave NHIS dude, you don't know how things work. If every Nigerian registers for NHIS, our hospitals don't have the facilities to take the volume. You are doing insurance for inefficiency. Insurance is different from susbisdy, are you thick?

NHIS works well enough. We also have PHIS and some states have their own version.

Yes it works. And one pays a fraction of the cost by the by. I work in healthcare, so I should know.

Nhis is not subsidy, do you even understand subsidy? NHIS is an insurance scheme and it's totally different from subsidy.
A subsidy is a benefit given by the government to groups or individuals, usually in the form of a cash payment or tax reduction.

In the case of fuel subsidy, government pays oil marketers part of the amount that should have been paid directly into their account. That's not how insurance scheme works.

Why don't you get anything? 🤔

nairalanda1:
Noted

So long as the cost of production keeps rising, so do subsidy costs.

cost of production will raise because you are not producing in your country. If you produce petrol in this country, you can mitigate the cost of production. Is it not why we are yearning for a refinery?
It's not hard to grasp, you don't have control per price if you don't produce it.

And so long as we pay for subsidy from oil money alone...not from tax revenue, that is a problem

it's not a problem, it has massive economic benefits if properly done. Nigeria is doing it fraudulently.
Most of Saudi Arabia's energy subsidies go to oil products, its subsidies only counts for more than $60 billion and up to 75.65% of the total energy subsidies, making it the biggest beneficiary of government support. The oil subsidies' share in the country's GDP is a percentage of 8.25%.
UAE government pays 85% fuel subsidy and they don't have issue with it because they have working database and systems to checkmate fraud

At the end, the deficit resulting eats our revenue, and then eats the borrowed money

And when that happens, the poor suffering would be excessively terrible.

For me, it is a choice between a rock and a hard place. I would that Nigeria chose neither, but at the end, it is what it is.

And yes, corruption and looting is a symptom. The Soviet and other communist countries tried what we did with subsidy...by subsidsing everything. Not only did it lead to corruption, scarcities and abuse, it even led to a massive black market.

I argue that we should not cut the profit motive in helping the poor. It ends up not benefiting anyone, the poor especially.

petrol subsidy is the benefit of citizens in oil producing countries. It's hard here because we can't checkmate fraud.
Russia. ANGOLA AND MOST top members of OPEC still subsize fuel because they do it right.
It's hard in Nigeria because our government is irresponsible

nairalanda1:
I don't deny they steal, but our tax to gdp ratio is too low for us to earn enough in taxes,plus 70% of Nigerians are not taxed because informal sector.

in 2022, Nigeria generated N10 trillion from tax according to FIRS, that's about the same amount we use in subsidizing fuel. Now if we then consider revenue from other agencies like customs that he reported 1 trillion naira. Imagine setting up a system that reduces tax leakages to the nearest minimum. They can do it but they don't want to do it.
I know you will argue that we cannot use all our tax to pay fuel subsidy, yes we can if we know the actual amount we are subsidizing for which I bet is way lower than 800billion monthly. NNPC and their cronies inflate that figure while Firs and customs deflates tax figures. The problem is our structure.

According to NBS, Nigeria generated 22trillion from crude oil revenue, this can run the country if well spent. This country is not rocket science to run if we put the right structure in place.
Nigeria can pay for subsidy if We do it right.

How is it suppose to make me suffer if government cannot deal with its revenue leakages?

Our tax to gdp is 10% . Ghana is at 24% Ghana is also getting bailed out by the IMF...because they so broke.

The stealing is bad because they steal from a small treasury.




I hear you, and I am pointing out that the problem with subsidy is the rising cost of production means rising subsidy costs year in and out.

At some point it creates a deficit in our budget, which means we cannot sustain it. And then we have to borrow.





In government institutions? THEY ARE....that's why your fees in government unis are not up to 2-3 million naira per annum, and why you were able to graduate without debt.

Health is subsidised in government hospitals. Then NHIS adds a layer of more subsides if you sign up or your workplace signs you up...and it is accepted in private hospitals too. Has been since 2005 self.

Bubu also signed a law that makes NHIS compulsory for all(yet to be implemented, as he signed it just before he left office).

Tax to GDP ratio doesn't make any meaning here.
The reason also has to do with the bad structure, the government doesn't want to galvanize the tax system to prompt efficiency and leakages. Must the citizens suffer for it?

Leave NHIS dude, you don't know how things work. If every Nigerian registers for NHIS, our hospitals don't have the facilities to take the volume. You are doing insurance for inefficiency. Insurance is different from susbisdy, are you thick?

You have to accept that Nigerian government is irresponsible and are trying to shift their cost of irresponsibility to her citizens.

nairalanda1:
Well, it is paid for by tax rates that are heavy, not from oil revenue (unless you are Libya whose oil revenue is enough for its 10 milluon people...and they produce more than we do)

they can pay for it if they are not stealing taxpayers money. Do you know how much Nigeria realizes from tax?
It still should not be our problem if they are accountable for the tax they collect. It's not your problem that government won't fight corruption and do their job.

Erm, refining petrol in most countries is a private business. Has been, and has always been. Dangote is just following what most do.

it is what subsidy is all about, government subsidizes private goods and services. Are you thick or I am not explaining well?

Education and health are subsidsed, as are the roads (no tolls).

health and education is not subsidized in Nigeria for a common citizen. Are you sure that you know how government subsidy works or you are an APC member in disguise?

nairalanda1:
Well, if it was, would you then accept subsides on your businesses for example?

The problem with subsidy is they cost a lot of money. And they are difficult to maintain. At the end, government and people cannot do anything about the cost of production.

You can have subsides in the petrrol sector by doing things like not charging heavy taxes on the petrol sector, or offering grants for them to set up businesses...but they have to have running refineries.

You can't do subsidy by forcing them to sell at a loss, and paying a subsidy that comes from our budget, and, as the cost rises, creates things like deficits in the budget, which have to be filled by more and more loans. We did that for 50 years, and it made things worse.

The thing called refinery, it costs money to run. And as a result, it has to make a profit to run. Can't do that with a subsidy.

Subsidy is not a private business. It's government.
Almost all governments of the world do subsidies on many goods and services, private business don't do subsidies. It's not very hard to get it you have travelled out ot understand policies in most countries.

In Nigeria today, the government now doesn't pay subsidy on anything, they are depriving you the benefits of being a citizen because they cannot do their job of fighting corruption.

Fule subsidy is not selling at lost if you do it well, it has economic benefits that helps to cushion inflation and meltdown. Nigeria is not just doing it well

nairalanda1:
Even with a reliable database, the problem with subsidy is government can do nothing about the cost of producing one liter of fuel

That cost is not fixed and it rises. As a result whenever it rises, so does the cost of subsidy. That creates issues and problems...especially when subsidy cannot cover the rising cost, therefore we have to spend more money on paying for the petrol



LOL...it isn't. And in places where it happens, most countries practice what is called an implicit subsidy..ie removing taxes on the industry,or providing grants to reduce some of the cost burden. It does not mean the industry sells at a loss, or is forced to sell at a loss, which is what we did here, and it wrecked oureconomy





Yes, and if UK tax rate was implemented here, you guys would scream. They charge a high tax, that's why they can pay for the NHS. Even then, it is running at a loss. Conservatives secretly want to privatise the thing.

Plus healthcare is subsidized in Nigeria. If you get on NHIS the subsidy increases self.




Nigeria has a high population , that our crude oil production cannot sustain. We produce less than the UAE, and have ten times, if not more than the UAE's piopulation.

We better accept that cold fact.




Ghana has crude oil deposits, which it exploits. As does Niger, and Chad. Even Benin discovered some crude. Want to try again?




I put it there because anytime I oppose you subsidy supporters, you start calling me APC supporter. Something I was backing before there was an apc self.



Good, then let us raise the tax rate and tax the 70% not taxed so that we can earn enough cash to pay for the darn thing.



So why did you say that subsidy is what you are supposed to enjoy as a citizen? You want the subsidy, abeg. No need to pretend.

gosh, you still don't get it.
Subsidy is your benefit as a citizen. It happens in many parts of the world.

It should not be your problem how government go about it, government is transferring the cost of fighting the corruption in the oil sector to you. It's not rocket sicnece 🙄

Cost of production will be lower if government fixed refineries, it should not be your problem.

nairalanda1:
Problem was, the corruption was a result of subsidy.

You bring in price controls...an integral part of subsidy, and copule it up with free money..another ingredient of subsidy, and anarchy and corruption results.

you really have said nothing new here. And whose job is it to fight the corruption, my job?
There's nothing wrong with subsidizing a commodity, the problem is the bad structure, weak institutions and the total unavailability of reliable database that gives insights to help channel the subsidy efficiently.
Subsidy for certain commodities is a norm is Most parts of the world, the problem is our weak structure.
U.K subsidizes for health, some goods and even tax for low income earners. Don't deprive yourself of basic benefits as a citizen because your government doesn't want to fight corruption.

Ghana and Niger republique both have working refineries, as does Chad. They also DO NOT HAVE and HAVE NEVER HAD subsides. As a result, their refineries can make enough profit, and work well to produce and sell fuel. And they don't have 'strong institutions' (Chad is a one man dictatorship show, Niger too has corruption issues, as does Ghana.).

These countries cannot produce enough crude oil to serve their own country, we can produce enough crude oil to serve our population and even export excess. This is why if we have a working refinery, we can easily regulate prices internally better than Benin and Ghana.
Benin and Ghana still depends on buying crude oil from other countries to refine, which means they will still be heavily dependent on international market forces.

MTN and Airtel work where Nitel failed because they were selling services , telephony and internet, at high prices...and making enough profit to build things and improve services over time.

this does not correlate, I don't get how this is directly related to oil and gas industry and how government subsidizes services.

The thing is, once you make it difficult for someone to make a profit in a business, that person is going to turn to corruption and wayo to make money. Infact the periodic scarcity that used to happen under subsidy was a means by which marketers made enough profit to survive and balance their books. They had no choice....other wise they would have gone broke. Yeah it is nice to sell fuel cheap...but there are things needed for the business to run that don't rely on subsides...and are expensive to boot.

again, there's nothing wrong in subsidizing commodities as a government if you have reliable data to track what you are subsidizing and a corruption commission that is efficient. It all boils down to the bd structure in Nigeria.

Nigeria should have removed subsides in 1993, when it was suggested strongly that we do. By now, we won;t be having this discussion....but we said no. 30 years later...

subsidy is what you are suppose to enjoy as a citizen if EFCC and ICPC were doing their jobs in the downstream and upstream sector. Don't suffer for their inefficiencies.

P.S

I do not support APC, PDP or LP. My problem with them, and with Nigerian leaders is simple. Nigeria runs a resoruce dependent economy that no longer works, and none of the parties have taken measures to get us off it

I have also backed subsidy removal since 2012, when I simply put, woke up.

you didnt comprehend my post. You failed to get the point
The point is not that we should not remove subsidy, the point is why and how we are removing it. Read it again

The removal of subsidy is obviously a result of EFCC and ICPC's inability to resolve the issue of corruption in the downstream and upstream sector of the oil and gas industry.
This is why we always talk about strengthening our institutions and making them independent but since we cannot heed to it and do the right thing, Nigerians will pay for the inefficiencies of these institutions.
When a society doesn't have the right values, they suffer and they don't even realize why they are suffering.

BTW, the manner at which Tinubu removed the subsidy without fixing any refinery is not only stupid, it's callous and wicked. If we had at least one refinery working well, internal price will not be totally controlled by international price and government can easily regulate prices without having to even subsidize it.
Is this hard for APC members understand or they are just plain stupid?

Acekidc4:
Am starting to like this Reno ooooo!! The Nigger outline some Sensible Workable Solutions. Good one Reno. That one no mean say if you Abuse Tinubu again ah no go give you back to back wotowoto oooooo. Be warned.





PATRON

you are very stupid then.
If you have travelled to Ghana or Benin Republic and see how much they pay for Data and Calls, you go appreciate Mtn.

You are more stupid because Shoprite Nigeria is now owned by a Nigerian

Jerryhare:
This is an evidence from the scripture

Psalm 14:1

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds; there is none who does good.

the scripture is not evidence, that's the claim.

Ghana is not an oil producing state FFS. Tinubu supporters are mad

Jerryhare:
Says your stupidity right? Folly

no says evidence

SalamRushdie:
We warned y'all to avoid that Obidient movt so we can first remove the satanic party APC from power and shut it down but una no gree

Shut up

OLAADEGBU:
What is a crazy story, that everything evolved out of nothing?

So your God evolved out of something?

Ikaeniyan0:
The Abia state government have been paying two point four billion naira to ghost workers every year

them dey even pay?

Jerryhare:
One of the most foolish Bible reader that will turn and twist the word of God around to suit their ignorance and stupidity is what you are bro

your God does not exist