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Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 11:28am On Dec 19, 2013 |
Bidam: Tithe is converted into money for the purpose of transportation and reconverted to food when the tither arrive at the designated tithing spot. see below and stop spreading false gospel jor Deuteronomy 14:22-26 (NIV) 22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always. 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 9:49am On Dec 19, 2013 |
Bidam: God was talking about food, (crops and animals) as we see/read in Leviticus 27:30-33. abi you see God mentioning gold and silver as tithe anywhere? Bidam: How? if God did not mention tithe of gold and silver, you want us to assume that he did? God said tithe of land, whether grain from soil or fruit from tree belongs to him. Do you read God saying whether gold from the land or silver from the soil? Bidam: what was the motive and where did Jesus confirm that God was after the motive? If it was just motive, there will be no penalty for anybody attempting to buy back his tithe. There is a penalty of a fifth part (2.5%) for those that want to pay cash instead of dropping their tithe of agric produce. in fact the tithe of animal is not redeemable i.e. you cannot pay cash in place of animal tithe. is that not telling you that God was very interested in the item offered as tithe? Bidam: Maybe you didn't understand what i meant by agric produce. Let me help by providing the definition of agriculture..... Merriam-webster: the science, art, or practice of cultivating the soil, producing crops, and raising livestock and in varying degrees the preparation and marketing of the resulting products. agric produce refers to output from practice of cultivating the soil, producing crops and raising livestocks. e.g corn, maize, beef e.t.c another word for agric produce is farm produce. so saying there is nothing like agric produce in scriptures is saying scriptures did not mention words like corn, grain, bull, fruit e.t.c.. can this be true, Bidam? Bidam: I understand that you are very gullible. dats the reason am taking time to explain what i meant by agric produce anyways you will not see agric produce in the verse quoted, but the tithe-able items listed in the verse are agric produce. i chose the word agric produce to save me the wahala of listing them. Bidam: Bidam, what's the source of corn, wine, oil? they fall from the sky abi? are they not from the farm, the result of agricultural practices? are they are not from agric produce? you want me to take you to the classroom now. Bidam: Corn and wine are not stored in treasury abi? let take a second look at the bible reference you provided...... Nehemiah 13:12-13 (KJV) 12 Then brought all Judah the tithe of the corn and the new wine and the oil unto the treasuries. 13 And I made treasurers over the treasuries, Shelemiah the priest, and Zadok the scribe, and of the Levites, Pedaiah: and next to them was Hanan the son of Zaccur, the son of Mattaniah: for they were counted faithful, and their office was to distribute unto their brethren. pay special attention to the bit in blue. can you see that it was the tithe of corn and new wine and oil that was taken to the treasury? and you read that the function of the 'treasurers' was to distribute the items in the 'treasury' to their brethren. you think they were distributing the temple's gold and silver to their brethren? you need to read another bible version so you understand what you've been reading o! Nehemiah 13:12-13 (NIV) 12 All Judah brought the tithes of grain, new wine and olive oil into the storerooms. 13 I put Shelemiah the priest, Zadok the scribe, and a Levite named Pedaiah in charge of the storerooms and made Hanan son of Zakkur, the son of Mattaniah, their assistant, because they were considered trustworthy. They were made responsible for distributing the supplies to their fellow Levites. So you can see treasury here was not referring to bank accounts or storage of cash. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 6:06pm On Dec 18, 2013 |
Bidam: Some were workers earning salary but they were not required to tithe. 1 Like |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 6:04pm On Dec 18, 2013 |
Bidam: If it was all about motive, how come there was penalty for redeeming tithe of crops..... "Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it." ...and the fact that tithe of animals cannot be redeemed. Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord. 33 No one may pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If anyone does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy and cannot be redeemed. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 5:50pm On Dec 18, 2013 |
Bidam: Good.Did you see any one pointing a gun to your head to give tithes and offerings? Even in the OT..they are called gifts offered to God. so you agree that paul was not thinking tithe in Philippians. Thank you. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 5:48pm On Dec 18, 2013 |
Bidam: I did not say luke 10:7 says that either...What i said is that ministers deserved to be paid and they get paid from church treasury and church treasury have tithe and offerings. what is God's tithe doing in the church treasury? or maybe you are referring to the pastoral tithe (of income from watever). |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 5:46pm On Dec 18, 2013 |
Bidam: We are not talking about what belong to God here, the discussion is about what God said was his tithe. God said "a tithe of everything from the land" belonged to him. are you now telling us he wanted a tithe of humans as well? if that's the interpretation, how come the Israelite were not offering themselves (or family members) as tithe to the Levites? and we don't read the Israelite tithing gold and silver gotten from the land. Bidam: BTW reference to produce of the land is always food (agric produce)..... Leviticus 25:6-7 (NIV) 6 Whatever the land yields during the sabbath year will be food for you—for yourself, your male and female servants, and the hired worker and temporary resident who live among you, 7 as well as for your livestock and the wild animals in your land. Whatever the land produces may be eaten. Leviticus 25:18-19 (NIV) 18 “‘Follow my decrees and be careful to obey my laws, and you will live safely in the land. 19 Then the land will yield its fruit, and you will eat your fill and live there in safety. Leviticus 26:20 (NIV) 20 Your strength will be spent in vain, because your soil will not yield its crops, nor will the trees of your land yield their fruit. Leviticus 19:9 (NIV) 9 “‘When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. the bible provides enough proof to show God definition of tithe was agric produce. The Israelite had gold and silver (cash) but it's always agric produce whenever tithe is mentioned.. Numbers 18:26-27 (NIV) 26 “Speak to the Levites and say to them: ‘When you receive from the Israelites the tithe I give you as your inheritance, you must present a tenth of that tithe as the Lord’s offering. 27 Your offering will be reckoned to you as grain from the threshing floor or juice from the winepress. Deuteronomy 14:22-23 (NIV) 22 Be sure to set aside a tenth of all that your fields produce each year. 23 Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always. The tithe was always food..... Deuteronomy 14:28-29 (NIV) 28 At the end of every three years, bring all the tithes of that year’s produce and store it in your towns, 29 so that the Levites (who have no allotment or inheritance of their own) and the foreigners, the fatherless and the widows who live in your towns may come and eat and be satisfied, and so that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hands. Malachi 3:10-11 (NIV) 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the Lord Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not drop their fruit before it is ripe,” says the Lord Almighty. God talked about exchanging the tithe for silver, evidence that silver was never tithed..... Deuteronomy 14:24-26 (NIV) 24 But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), 25 then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. 26 Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice. There was always that distinction between what the land produced and what ya labour produce, another proof that salary and wages (cash) was never part of the tithe deal....... Deuteronomy 28:32-33 (NIV) 32 Your sons and daughters will be given to another nation, and you will wear out your eyes watching for them day after day, powerless to lift a hand. 33 A people that you do not know will eat what your land and labor produce, and you will have nothing but cruel oppression all your days. Bidam: Yes he did. He said "whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord.......Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord." Now you have enough biblical reference to show that God's tithe was agric produce. You don't read God asking for cash (gold, silver, paper e.t.c). and you don't read God asking for profit from business cos tithe was always directly from harvest before deducting farm costs like hiring of laborers e.t.c. So what do you have to show that God's tithe includes cash (from salaries, sales of produce or watever) and industrial produce like silver, gold e.t.c |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 3:03pm On Dec 18, 2013 |
Bidam: Leviticus 27:30-33 (NIV) 30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord. 31 Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord. 33 No one may pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If anyone does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy and cannot be redeemed.’” 1. a tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees. Bidam money dey grow for land? abi you fit cultivate computer? 2. every tithe of herd and flock - every tenth animal. Just in case you don't know; grain, fruit and farm animals are agric produce. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 2:51pm On Dec 18, 2013 |
Bidam: Tithe was not abolished in Hebrews 7. the Hebrew writer is only telling you that God's tithe been abolished post crucifixion. The pastoral tithe (of watever) remain till date Bidam: Nobody is saying minister should not be supported. the tithe doctrine is the koko of the matter here and trustman is asking that you provide evidence that tithe goes to Jesus. focus on that. Bidam: The Levitical priesthood went with their tithe inheritance. Bidam: Bidam which tithe law predates levitical priesthood can you provide scriptures to show there was a tithe law pre-moses? Bidam: The instruction "tithes are now to be given to Jesus Christ, our High Priest, for use by the church THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST" is from where. Did God say that the tithe he gave to the Levites as their inheritance now belongs to Christ as his (Christ's) inheritance? Bidam, who gave the instruction for the tithe to be transferred from the Levites to Christ? please answer (and provide support from bible). a. God b. Pastor c. Bidam d. i don't know i don convert the question to multiple choice to increase ya chance of coming back with the right answer ...... Bidam: You say gospel is preached free of charge, then you say "the tithe pays...." please make up ya mind; its either the gospel is free or its sold 1 Like |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 2:29pm On Dec 18, 2013 |
Bidam: Pls can you define gifts? Gift: Merriam-Webster - something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation Oxford dictionaries - a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present: wedding gifts Macmillan Dictionary - something that you give to someone as a present e.g. He bought generous gifts for all his family. The camera was a retirement gift from colleagues. She made a £50,000 gift to charity. You see am say tithe cannot be defined as gift. afterall na 'pay' you dey pay tithe 1 Like |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 2:22pm On Dec 18, 2013 |
Bidam: You are referring to which tithe? God's tithe or pastoral tithe (of watever)? the reference you provided did not say tithe o! Luke 10:7 (NIV) 7 Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house. Bidam, Luke 10:7 did not say "the labourer is worthy of his tithe" na! this ya obsession with tithe be as e get |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 2:14pm On Dec 18, 2013 |
Bidam: The philippian reference says gifts. so where you come see tithe and offerings na? Philippians 4:17-18 (NIV) 17 Not that I desire your gifts; what I desire is that more be credited to your account. 18 I have received full payment and have more than enough. I am amply supplied, now that I have received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent. They are a fragrant offering, an acceptable sacrifice, pleasing to God. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 2:12pm On Dec 18, 2013 |
Bidam: the quote above that says God's tithe is agric produce. so what are you talking about? do you see/read the quote saying money is tithe-able? |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 5:17pm On Dec 17, 2013 |
Bidam: God did not define 'the tithe' o! Bidam there's no way God's definition of tithe will include that ya pastoral tithe of 10% of 'watever'. God defined 'his tithe' to be a tenth part of agric produce. Bidam: You use helicopter to take the tithe to Jesus abi? Bidam: what do you mean by "givings should go to ministers" are you saying all givings should go to the minister or that the minister can also receive support? |
Religion / Re: Inviting Tithers To A Theological Discuss with Miwerds and Candour On Tithing by Zikkyy(m): 10:12am On Dec 17, 2013 |
In his response to M3, image123 agreed that the Israelite did not tithe war booty. I will say they did not because God did not command tithe of war booty. Image123 response is actually in support of our position that not all increase are tithe-able (War booty is an increase), Therefore the view that Israelite tithed all increase cannot hold (joagbaje, please note ) God defined his tithe to be a tenth (not 10%) of agric produce, our pastors define tithe as 10% of all increase (also defined as 10% of 'watever') including income from prostitution, robbery, money ritual e.t.c. so you will understand why armed robbers are tithing. |
Religion / Re: Inviting Tithers To A Theological Discuss with Miwerds and Candour On Tithing by Zikkyy(m): 9:58am On Dec 17, 2013 |
Image123 actually made some good points in his response to M3. example is the post below.... Image123: This is what we been saying. Tithe was a specific instruction to the Israelites!!!! so why is the pastor teaching tithe as an instruction applicable to Christians Image123: Thank you image123, this what we have been saying. giving 10% should be as the spirit leads; it is not teachable. you can chose to give 10% based on OT examples, no wahala |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 8:42am On Dec 17, 2013 |
Bidam: My 'offering' is not based on or determined by OT instructions so you can understand why i don't pay tithe. My 'offering' is driven by my love for God and for my neighbor. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 8:39am On Dec 17, 2013 |
Bidam: Bidam, saying the law been abolished does not equate to discarding the OT books. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 9:21am On Dec 15, 2013 |
Bidam: ewoooh!!!!una no go kill me for here. The abolishment scripture was referring to is old testament books o. Should we as christian discard them and not glean principles from them like trustman is advocating here? That is my bone of contention. who told you old testament books been abolished? This is clear evidence that you've not been reading our posts. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 9:16am On Dec 15, 2013 |
Bidam: you don't teach tithe as doctrine because scripture is littered with word tithe. You people should learn to give sound justification for ya tithing practice na. Scripture is also litterd with the word burnt offering, why are you not burning ya sacrifice? |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 9:02am On Dec 15, 2013 |
Bidam: did Christ pay or receive tithe? If he did not, what did he teach concerning tithe? It is not enough to say Christ taught tithe therefore I must tithe. You must understand the message. Christ taught the complete law of Moses (including burnt offerings) in Mathew when he told the crowd to pay attention to what the pharisees tell them and also to ensure they do it. So how come you are not presenting burnt offering since Christ taught burnt offering? Bidam: So what are you imitating in Paul? did paul pay or collected tithe? |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 8:36am On Dec 15, 2013 |
Bidam: only if you understand what it means to abolish. You blinded by ya the desire to 'hammer' from the act of tithing, first fruit offering and seed sowing. Thats why you have difficulty understaning the post below. shdemidemi: |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 8:28am On Dec 15, 2013 |
Bidam: You are seriously overworking ya self in attempt to give zikkyy a bad name. Reading ma post should tell you if am kicking against the mosaic law or not. Bidam: 1 Cor not teaching tithe and offering. The verse talks about working with the expectation of also deriving some benefits. The form or nature of benefit was never the focus. It has nothing to do with tithe. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 8:01am On Dec 15, 2013 |
Bidam: Teach in what sense? What does it mean to believe? Is it saying that one accept something as true? Accepting an activity or event or instruction as true does translate to one performing that same activity. If we believed what the prophets wrote regarding an event or events to happen in future, we are saying we accept as true everything written by the prophets regarding that event. Application is not automatic, it depends on what you believe. If I believe (accept as true) that God institute tithing for the Israelites that is not saying I should also teach that Christians must tithe as well. It depends on what you believe and how you interpret what you believe. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 7:39am On Dec 15, 2013 |
shdemidemi: this is something lovers of the law will never understand. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 7:21am On Dec 15, 2013 |
Bidam: You are the one being dishonest here, i never said Paul preached Moses.What book were they using to preach from? So who taught Christians to follow and adhere to OT instructions in the synangogues? Was it the pharisees? Your post below is what is hunting you why not say it was blunder so we can forget it? Bidam: don't forget to provide scripture showing Christians listening to moses being preached in the synangogue |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 6:45am On Dec 15, 2013 |
Bidam: Yeah i did, Paul already says it's unthinkable to abolish God's law. so animal sacrifice which is part of the law not been abolished, abi? You need to be careful how you go about interpreting what you read o! |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 11:13pm On Dec 14, 2013 |
Bidam: Why not? Internet can be used for por.n or even teach/advertise smoking and other vices. so, since use of internet is not scriptural, does that make it a sin? Bidam: It depends on what you smoking and/or how you smoke. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 11:01pm On Dec 14, 2013 |
Bidam: You are attempting to hang yourself. the verse you quoting says Paul tried convincing his guest "about Jesus from Moses’ Teachings and the Prophets". For Paul and the other apostles, it was always about Jesus. Nothing to do with teaching peeps to tithe. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 10:56pm On Dec 14, 2013 |
Bidam: You are the one posting error here. Paul believed all things which are written in the law and in the prophets. That is not saying he taught gentiles to follow and adhere to OT instructions. The Acts 26 verse you quoted stated clearly all that Paul taught regarding the law and prophets...... 19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. 21 That is why some Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.” Paul preached Christ only. He did not teach that Christians should tithe or pay first fruit. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 10:34pm On Dec 14, 2013 |
Bidam: In Acts 17, Paul was preaching Jesus in the synagogue. He was not preaching Moses. Acts 17:2-3 (NIV) 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. Paul preached Jesus to the Berean Jews, he did not go to Berea to preach Moses. "As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed" Bidam: Paul used Moses to teach his disciples that Jesus was the Christ. This is not saying Paul taught his disciples to follow and adhere to the OT or mosaic law. |
Religion / Re: If You Tithe, You Are Obligated To Keep The Whole Law! by Zikkyy(m): 10:16pm On Dec 14, 2013 |
Bidam: You want to cite scriptural examples abi? oya na Bidam: Moses teachings are read in synagogues everyday of worship (from generations of old or 'for generations' according to ya translation above) makes no difference. Your interpretation of that verse was that Christians were being told to follow and adhere to OT (Moses) instructions to tithe (in addition to other requirements of the mosaic law). If that verse is saying that Christians already being taught (on every day of worship) to follow and adhere to Mosaic law i don't see them having issues with circumcision since they hear it every day of worship, abi? so you need to answer my question o! 1. Who told you gentile Christians were the peeps listening to Moses being preached in the synagogue every Sabbath? 2. Who told you it was the apostles preaching Moses to congregation every Sabbath? |
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