₦airaland Forum

Bidam: Maybe you need to go over the Acts of the Apostles, unlike what we have today..Paul and others were always at the synagogue as the custom was arguing and reasoning with both Jews and Greeks that Jesus was the Christ.

the issue has nothing to do with Paul preaching that Jesus was the Christ o! you losing focus here. see trustman's cncern and ya response below:

trustman: The issue is not whether the PRACTICE is pre-law or post law. The issues is this: Is there a single INSTRUCTION to the Church age believer to tithe? The simple answer is that there is NOT ONE such directive in the New Testament epistles which constitutes the blueprint for the spiritual lifestyle under the Church age.

see ya response....

Bidam: May be you need to check your statement once again...The bible is complete.We don't only adhere to NT teachings but OT as well cos All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching and instructions. The bible never said only NT teaching is inspired but the whole scripture.............
.............Funny the NT wasn't even compiled until 30 AD or so..so which instructions did you think the Christians were following and adhering to in synangogues? Ofcos the OT

So you can see our discussion is all about you providing scriptures that prove Christians were following and adhering to OT instructions. abi you don't understand the meaning of 'instructions'?

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Bidam: It's high time i stop this madness.It won't change the world neither will it stop Christians from not tithing.Shalom

you don run, finally

Bidam: Tithing is not an animal sacrifice,Offerings are. Christ as the passover lamb has cancelled that ritual, why are offerings still retained?Why not tithes also

you are right to say offerings in OT was animal sacrifice. So answer the following questions;
1. is the modern day 'offering' also animal sacrifice?
2. Is this modern day 'offering' given based on instructions in OT?

My answer to both question is No. If I did not retain the OT offering why retain the OT tithe. And if my 'offering' is not driven by OT offering, why should my tithing activities be based on OT instructions?

Again you agreed that the rituals were cancelled after Christ offered himself, is that not enough proof that we don't do things simply because it is contained in the 'inspired' OT.

Bidam: why should i stop the talk about the OT being inspired, you conceded defeat that it is inspired already.

Na wa oh. How did I end up conceding defeat to something that was never contested?

Bidam: The point is..is smoking scriptural? Why practice what is unscriptural

is sin defined as unscriptural activities? Is the use of internet scriptural? Listen to yourself!

Bidam: Acts 15:21

Acts 15:21 says that Christians were following and adhering to OT instructions (in the synangogues)? which bible you dey read?

1. Who told you gentile Christians were the peeps listening to Moses being preached in the synangogue every sabath?
2. Who told you it was the apostles preaching Moses to congregation every sabath?
3. I believe you are aware they are very likely to be Jews maybe inluding jewish converts very much used to listening to the OT every sabath. They more likely the reason for the decision in Acts 15, the Judaizers that believed gentile converts must be circumcised to be saved.

Act 15 says that Moses from generations of old was preached in the synangogue. If it was from generations of old, can they be referring to new converts?

Bidam: Are marriages,giving alms,offerings,prayers,fasting,worship not OT activities? You really have lost it.

I lost nothing. The arguement that we perform OT activities because it is inspired will not fly. We don't offer animal sacrifice even though it was an 'inspired' OT activity. I think you should take some time to study the post I lifted from the discussion thread. We marriages, giving alms, prayers e.t.c is still practice because they are still relevant, not because they are contained in the OT. That is what you need to show in the case of tithe, so stop this talk bout OT being inspired.

Bidam: Holy Spirit. Are you a sinful smoker

If it was the holy spirit that told you smoking is sin, then you don't have to preach it as if it is scriptural.

Bidam: Scriptures...will you pay your tithe if i show you the scripture ?:p

Forget about me paying tithe. Abi you be sales/marketing staff for your church. If you say its scriptures, please provide scriotures that shows Christians were told to adhere to OT instructions in synangogues.

Candour: If the men of war had brought a tithe of war spoils to the Lord, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN REJECTED because God had a different plan for spoils of war under Mosaic law. Abraham’s type of tithe to Melchizedek was NO LONGER ACCEPTABLE TO GOD. The same way Animal sacrifices ceased to count with God when Christ died. Same God but different method of operation and that is why we need to know what God’s plan is for us and not go adopting practices that applied in other dispensations

@bidam, I borrowed the above from the tithe discussion thread just in case you missed it. You guys need to do away with this idea that because OT is inspired, you must perform all OT activities.

Bidam: May be you need to check your statement once again...The bible is complete.We don't only adhere to NT teachings but OT as well cos All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching and instructions. The bible never said only NT teaching is inspired but the whole scripture.

and BTW, the OT being inspired does not translate to Christians performing OT activities.

Double post

Bidam: No where also was it written in NT that we shouldn't smoke but does it mean we should smoke?

.......and who told you smoke is sin?

Bidam: Funny the NT wasn't even compiled until 30 AD or so..so which instructions did you think the Christians were following and adhering to in synangogues? Ofcos the OT

who told you Christians were following and adhering to OT instructions? Na where you read that one?

So image123 says the motive for Christians rendering 10% of their income (a.k.a. tithing) is because they believe that the law of God is truth and should be regarded. I want to say such justification is not held by majority of tithers and such justification is held only by those that want to deceive themselves. God cannot be deceived

END

i believe am also allowed to 'end' my presentation, abi?

Image123: The law of the LORD is perfect. We should never think that it was perfect before, and imperfect now. The law of the LORD is perfect. It is so perfect that God promised to put it in His children in our time.
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


I will put my laws into their hearts. This is God's will and wish.
Psa 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 37:31 The law of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.
Psa 94:12 Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;
Psa 119:1 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

Though i did not see the relevance of this bit in the discussion but..

Image123 made reference to God saying that “I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them” – Hebrews 10:16 but again shows that he does not understand what it means for the law to be written on the heart…..

What does it mean for the law to be written on the heart? If the law is written on your heart, your obedience is no longer a response to some external or written law; instead you obey the leading of your heart. But we know that the heart has the ability to bring forth all that is evil, see Matthew 15:17-19 …. “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander”.

The law written on the heart results in a change which can only be achieved when/if we allow Christ to lead our heart. It becomes a nature; i.e. your response to the God’s will or to what is good and acceptable to God becomes a natural reaction and not a reaction to an external command or requirement. Read Apostle Paul saying something similar in Romans 2:14-15…..
“Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.”

The law written on the heart is not about implementing or obeying the law to tithe, it is about living according to the purpose or reason the commandment was given; which was to ensure sustenance of the Levites (they did not inherit land, the tithe was their inheritance) as well the widows, orphans e.t.c. As Christians we are able to perform similar acts (give to those in need) because we have a heart that loves. We are no longer regulated by a law that says “you shall” or “you must”, now your heart will say “I shall” and the beauty of it is that there is no limit and it is not measurable, it is no longer 10% or 20% because sharing love in percentages for me is not true love.

Image123: We cannot or should not dismiss any Word of God with a wave of the hand. The wave of the hand dismissal is very common with the Old Testament scripture, and is even done to some new testament scriptures. This ought not to be so. To show the immense importance of the Old Testament scriptures and how rooted the new testament books are in the old testament scriptures, nearly all the 39 books are quoted in the new testament. Let me give to the best of my knowledge, an example of at least 30 books regarded and respected in the New Testament.

Image123 says “We cannot or should not dismiss any Word of God with a wave of the hand”. Though am not aware of anybody dismissing the OT with a wave of the hand other than the purpose for which the OT is being used, I will have to agree with image123 on this. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 says that “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work”. It did not say we (as Christians) should implement all that is written (in the O.T). Image123 provided 30 examples to “show the immense importance of the Old Testament scriptures and how rooted the New Testament books are in the Old Testament scriptures” Yes image123 showed that the O.T was important and should be respected (this we already know), but he did not show how this teaches us to implement every word in the O.T and how this teaches or prove that we should implement all that is written (i.e. tithe), which I believe is the ’koko’ of the discussion. We need to be able to link what is written to what we do.

Image123: i can safely forget everything else and go home, knowing that God's law is the truth. Jesus Christ said the same thing BTW; Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. .............. Because it is truth and light, it should be respected and regarded.

Image123 says God’s law is the truth, no problem with that. The question I want to ask is this; what is the truth regarding the tithe?
1. Is it true that God will not rebuke the devourer (for Christians that don’t tithe)?
2. Is it truth that the tithe must be go to the Church you worship (knowing that knowing that Abraham did not pay tithe in a temple or knowing that there was no temple or priest to receive Jacob’s tithe),
3. Is it true that God’s law regarding tithe encompasses the following; the tithing of pocket money, the tithing of gifts, the tithing of income from prostitution, robbery, fraud money ritual e.t.c if the answer is no, then what is the truth regarding what is tithe-able and what is not tithe-able. I am yet to hear a sermon that teaches tithe other than it is 10%.

DrummaBoy: The best kind of deliverance is understanding my brother.

Well, if this makes you happy I want to respond to the presentation: R2 Our tithing is in the belief that the law of God is truth and should be regarded

I think Image123 started very well when he said….”What is our foundation for obedience? Actions are motivated in many ways, actions have different reasons. i've seen people pray because they were forced to. i've also seen people fast so that something evil will happen to another. i've seen people read the word of God to find holes and contradictions. i believe in the three actions above; prayer, fasting and reading the word of God. On the other hand, i disagree with the three motives or reasons above. These three scenarios show that the ACTION should not be condemned for (because of) the reason/motive of the actor. This is a treatment often meted out on the TITHE. Different people have their reasons for doing things. We do not all have the same reasons for salvation or believing God. i think the more important thing is that we are saved and believe God.” This part I agree with. What image123 forgot to tell us was the motive for his actions (tithing). I will explain…….

.....First I want to say am very happy to read image confirm that tithe is part of the law, and it is not an eternal principle ......

Image123: Why do we give tithe? What is our foundation for obedience? Actions are motivated in many ways, actions have different reasons. i've seen people pray because they were forced to. i've also seen people fast so that something evil will happen to another. i've seen people read the word of God to find holes and contradictions. i believe in the three actions above; prayer, fasting and reading the word of God. On the other hand, i disagree with the three motives or reasons above. These three scenarios show that the ACTION should not be condemned for(because of) the reason/motive of the actor. This is a treatment often meted out on the TITHE. Different people have their reasons for doing things. We do not all have the same reasons for salvation or believing God.

Image123 talked about motive and action, he stated that motive can be wrong (i.e. contrary to God’s will or what is considered acceptable to God), but wrong motive does not imply the action itself is wrong, this I agree with. But what is the motive for tithing? He says it’s because “God's Word is to be regarded, and that ALL of God's Word is inspired by God and profitable “. What is/are the profits to be derived from tithing your income? If we ignore the motive which is the basis for every action/inaction then the action is meaningless. Can the motive for an action be simply because you do not disregard the law? Is that not saying the person does not understand what he/she is doing? Why am I not disregarding the law that says “thou shall not kill”? is it because I see it as something inspired by God and profitable? Such motive makes no sense. There can only be two genuine reasons or motive, the first is that I believe killing will earn me God’s wrath along with the punishment that goes with it (this justification is for lovers of the law). The second possible motive would be that I consider the act of killing a morally repugnant behavior (one that is inconsistent or incompatible with my new nature in Christ). The law must have a purpose otherwise it is of no relevance or use to the issuer or the people the law is meant to regulate. Image123 tells us the “The law of God is not with the purpose of saving us or justifying us or making us become righteous! It is basically not useful for that purpose”. So what is the purpose of the law?

Image123 says one use of the law is “To examine yourself, to see your state”. No issues if you want use the law for such purpose. If the law serve such purpose, can we say the action of tithing (which image has agreed is God’s law and is truth) is for the purpose of examining ourselves, to see our state? Maybe there is no reason, the tither is on auto pilot mode (running programs designed and executed by the pastor).

...

DrummaBoy: The prize shall be seeing people gain understanding

Majority of the peeps don't need understanding, they need deliverance. Or maybe we wait for the Nigerian economy to improve. Dat na one reason some peeps are tithing recklessly.

shdemidemi: Anti-tithers don chase all the tithers away from here o (with facts).

tithers are not so good when it comes to exercising the brain (there are exceptions sha), They are comfortable with brief statements like - "tithe works for me" or "the bible says we should tithe" (it actually the pastor that gave the instruction to tithe).

DrummaBoy: So please, I want you guys to take up the points being discussed there and discuss/debate them here too, and thus give some life to the whole discuss.

what's the reward? e.g. 1st prize - 2014 Range Rover sports, 2nd prize - all expense paid vacation to hawaii, 3rd prizec - all expense paid pilgrimage to Jerusalem 4th prize all expense paid pilgrimage to cannan land, Ota. 5th prize - time out with pastor adeboye. Things like these would be enough incentive for debate. Even tithers go participate very well.

Bidam: NaH! rather the content of your ridicule all over nairaland is the antichrist.

na wa for you o! Is this how you see my posts? My post are usually made in good faith o! No intention to ridicule anybody at all! .............okay, I admit it does happen (on very rare occasions sha) and joagbaje is usually the benefciary, not you. The time i did that to you was when i called you copy and paste master but that was a long time ago na. Abi you never forget Why you no talk all this time?

Bidam: Are you also burning your offerings?

my 'offering' does not go to God as a sweet smelling sacrifice like your tithe.

Bidam: But you get time for tithe thread ode!

The OP is an error and an attempt to ridicule God who instituted the tithes to start with.

The tithes simply goes to God as a sweet smelling sacrifices like Paul stated nothing more. If Jesus is the head of His church and we are His body. Is it not for our benefit that the body should be nourished through the collective resources we bring as a body

Like i always tell you? who are you to judge my givings of 10,20,30,40% etc to God.The day you can provide a single scripture that commands me not to tithe then i will stop. Until then you have no case here.

The whole body both seen and unseen part ALL work towards the same goal.

I just can see the spirit of antichrist in this post.

lol! @bolded since when you become antichrist? Anyway I agree with you. The content of ya post indicates the spirit of the antichrist is truly in charge

Bidam: Like i always tell you? who are you to judge my givings of 10,20,30,40% etc to God.The day you can provide a single scripture that commands me not to tithe then i will stop. Until then you have no case here.

I want to believe this bit was meant for frosbel. Me and you no discuss enough for this thread to warrant this response. Abi na kolo dey start small small like this?

Bidam: The OP is an error and an attempt to ridicule God who instituted the tithes to start with.

I thought you guys imitating Abraham? God was not the one that instituted that one na. The only tithing practice instituted by God is that practiced by Jews under the mosaic law.

Bidam: The tithes simply goes to God as a sweet smelling sacrifices like Paul stated nothing more.

are you burning ya tithe?

Bidam: But you get time for tithe thread ode!

e be like you no dey happy say I no get ya time

Pastor Kun: The Pastor Oseni must have been drunk when he made that statement. He should first repent from the tithe fraud perpetuated in his church before he thinks of ridding Lagos of criminals.

lol! I want to agree with the drunk bit it's possible he stopped by one of the beer palours for a 'quickie' before climbing the pulpit

shdemidemi: Adam was created in the image and likeness of God. You and I were made in the image and likeness of Adam.

Genesis 5:
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

if you resemble ya papa and ya papa resemble God, what's the difference?

Ukuts gp: that guy with tithe self. He is twisting the scripture now to support his tithe doctrine.

ha him way. the man must wak na