deols: sissie said it right except for where she mentions the 50-50. It kinda contradicts d her money is her money part.

I particularly like the part where she says his money is their money and her money is her money.

There are instances where a woman earns more than her husband, so far she is married to him, he is still the head.

being the head is by virtue of what differentiates a woman from a man in the real sense of it rather than the financial buoyance or muscle flexing and extending tendencies.

The man MUST make every effort 2 protect, provide and care for his family-with that he'd naturally fit into d position of the head.

Sissy: You protect them physically and psychological. And he sustains her from what he is earning, which means if they both contribute 50/50 he still sustains her witin his means, really she can decide to live on his 50% only , that doesn't diminish her obedience towards him.but if he an can support his wife 100% he shuld and don't say his wife workin and must support herself, (his money is their money, her money is her money). And if he doesn't earn money and she supports the family, she is obedient because he still protects his family. The obedience and submission isn't based only on financial means, a man has his duty and responsibility to his family.

deols:
There are instances where a woman earns more than her husband, so far she is married to him, he is still the head.
being the head is by virtue of what differentiates a woman from a man in the real sense of it rather than the financial buoyance or muscle flexing and extending tendencies.
The man MUST make every effort 2 protect, provide and care for his family-with that he'd naturally fit into d position of the head.

fellis: Thanks for the reply @ sissy mac and deols.
Ok.





If I understand you, I think what you are trying to say is that men should be the head of the house regardless of whether the man is 100% in support of the family and regardless of whether the man is offering protection to the wife.
And also that women should be obedient at all times even if the husband is not fully in charge of financial responsibilities or physical protection,not so? I just want to get your point clearly. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Are you saying the man is by default the head of the house even if he does not fulfill the criteria in the verse?

Sissie:
Thus is a tricky question, I will try to ans, when you say not fully and not 100% percent this means he still fulfills his responsibility to an extent here clearly he is the head and she has to obey, if its 0 then its a different situation. It says women should be devoutly obedient, this is different from blind obedience, which means if her husband tells her to do something that's against Islam I.e haram, she can't do it, COS IS she has to fear Allah, b4 d husband.
If the husband doesn't fulfil even if its upto a certain % of his duties, now questions are asked, based on what is the reasons for this, his he sick or invalid and can't protect or sustain, or did he travel and the family didn't hear from him.
Or his he physically ok and has just abandoned his family n he isn't providing.
Theirs ideal situation, and at times ideal situations aren't always reality, if this questions are answered then further explanations can be given.
Because the same verse says "therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient to Allah and to their husbands.

fellis: ^Ok. So not fulfilling responsibilities automatically strips the husband of his headship right?
Got it. Thanks for the explanation.

fellis: @sissie,
Is there any verse in the Qur'an explicitly commanding men to take care of women and commanding women to obey? Because the verse I quoted seems to be a descriptive. It appears that the verse is describing a situation/relationship between husband and wife i.e men are qawwamun and women are qanitat. It doesn't really say men MUST be qawwamun and women MUST be qanitat.
Is there any verse with an explicit command for the qawwamun and qanitat relationship?

Sissie:
He is still the head he just doesn't get all the rights that comes with it, and can be disobeyed within limits.
[s]A Muslim woman is never completely independent[/s].

Sissie:
,this to me suffices and its used as a reference point, it says men provide, now this in its own its explanatory, it didn't say men may provide or women may obey.

fellis:
I don't understand.
The verse in the Qur'an says men are head because they protect and provide, not just because they are men or because they are male.
And you wrote before that some scholars say a man who doesn't support his family loses his authority over them. Now you say again that he is still the head even if he doesn't fulfil his obligations.

In the family system just like other social or business grp, there's an hierarchy, I.e the husband, the wife/wives, and the kid. In d business system there's the CEO, the manager and the ordinary workers. The CEO still own d business evn if he never work at the office or not. The man is the head, by default, but been the head comes with rights, and its this rights that comes with it, he doesn't enjoy, I.e a woman must take permission from her husband if she wants to sell his property, but in a situation where the man his a miser, it is allowed for her to sell just what she needs to feed herself n kids, without seeking permission, now this is one of the rights he enjoys that's nt given to him.


It says men are providers, not men must be providers. It also says women are obedient not that women must obey.
This is the way I see it, Islam is a religion that takes the individual's comfort and ease into consideration and so there are no hard and fast or unshakeable laws about whether men must provide or whether women must obey. The man may not be financially buoyant enough to fully support his family on his own and in instances like this, it would be wiser for the wife to join in providing for her family and not leaving it completely to the man.

You've already explained it, the man is not financially buoyant, but he must still strive all he can to provide evn if his wife work and support him, he can't say since am not buoyant , I won't even try hard, and leave it to my wife to take part of the responsibility, because in the both of them search for financial buoyancy, who takes care of the kids and the family and other
hings the family needs. None of them should carry more burden they can bear. A woman has he duties too

The man could also be incapacitated one way or another (maybe sick or paralysed) and the duty of providing falls to the woman.

Yes hence its not haram for women to work, but because the woman works and earn money doesnt mean she stops respectin and obeyin are husband. Neither does it make her the head.

That is one reason why I think the statement is not a hard and fast rule.
When it comes to obedience, I think the rule isn't rigid because there are many reasons why it may be better for a woman to disobey. (Calm down. I am not advocating disobedience) Some of these reasons are:
1. The woman could be more intelligent than her husband (yes, it is possible for that to happen) and in such cases, the decisions he makes would not be as good as those she makes and she, being more intelligent would see the inherent harm or disadvantage in following those decisions. What does she do in that case? Follow his decision all the same?
She should explain to her husband and make him see reasons why are way is better, not try to out smart her husband cos she thinks she's smarter. If what he's saying is haram, she should not obey, but if what he's saying isn't haram, yes she should obey him and follow his decision. Afterall she agreed to marry him, and must fear Allah 1st before the husband.
2. The man might noam as the woman is andmight make laws in the house that are not very Islamic. Should the woman follow those laws all the same even when she knows better?
What do you mean not very islamic, its either Islamic or not. And if its not Islamic she doesn't obey. I.e a man tells his wife to stop wearing the hijab, she is to disobey this rule. Obeying Allah is no one priority.

Note that in both cases I highlighted above, the man is the stubborn type that doesn't think he should everd accept his wife's will instead.

Sissie:
If he doesn't think he should accept his wife's will even when he's disobeying Allah then theirs something fundamentally wrng with his understanding of Islam, and if he's been too stubborn about certain things important to the family, the woman should refer the case to an elder or leader, imam or family member he respects to make him see reasons, because a one can't just take laws into their hands.
hence why a.woman should be carefull before agreeing to marry a man, and why there's the option of divorce.

fellis:

I don't wanna drag this topic, although there are many things I would have liked to say and you aren't really addressing the questions I am asking. Maybe some other time I would bring it up.

Thanks a lot Sissie, for indulging my curiousity. I had a great time with you on the thread, bye .

fellis:
hmmm. . . . There were actually points that I raised that weren't addressed but no problem, you were not under obligation to answer me.

The truth is that I only seek to understand and make sense of what I am following, I am not over-analyzing and I am not trying to twist anything to suit my personal opinion. I'm actually offended at that last post you made. I wanted to end the discussion on a good note but you started reading different wrong meanings from my posts and talking about how Islam is not about personal opinion.
Whatever. Goodbye.

uplawal: Some muslimas here should not mislead other good obedient muslimas,A wife should always obey her husband even if He uses commanding tone,in all things except what is Haram,i mean what Allah forbids,Allah specifically said a righteous woman obeys her husband,i don't know what some women are feeling these days,Alhamdullilahi, the sisters i keeps as friends always mute when their husbands talk,until He finishes,they don't argue,at the end it pays the wife,She gets rewarded firstly for obeying Allah in that verse,secondly she gets reward for obeying her Husband.

Honestly Deol,if you already have the plan to live like your writeups,its only happens in fairys,am in a three years marriage i can tell you majority of men likes their wives to be submisive regardless of whatever except what Allah forbids.

uplawal: Some muslimas here should not mislead other good obedient muslimas,A wife should always obey her husband even if He uses commanding tone,in all things except what is Haram,i mean what Allah forbids,Allah specifically said a righteous woman obeys her husband,i don't know what some women are feeling these days,Alhamdullilahi, the sisters i keeps as friends always mute when their husbands talk,until He finishes,they don't argue,at the end it pays the wife,She gets rewarded firstly for obeying Allah in that verse,secondly she gets reward for obeying her Husband.

Honestly Deol,if you already have the plan to live like your writeups,its only happens in fairys,am in a three years marriage i can tell you majority of men likes their wives to be submisive regardless of whatever except what Allah forbids.

uplawal: Some muslimas here should not mislead other good obedient muslimas,A wife should always obey her husband even if He uses commanding tone,in all things except what is Haram,i mean what Allah forbids,Allah specifically said a righteous woman obeys her husband,i don't know what some women are feeling these days,Alhamdullilahi, the sisters i keeps as friends always mute when their husbands talk,until He finishes,they don't argue,at the end it pays the wife,She gets rewarded firstly for obeying Allah in that verse,secondly she gets reward for obeying her Husband.

Honestly Deol,if you already have the plan to live like your writeups,its only happens in fairys,am in a three years marriage i can tell you majority of men likes their wives to be submisive regardless of whatever except what Allah forbids.

uplawal: Some muslimas here should not mislead other good obedient muslimas,A wife should always obey her husband even if He uses commanding tone,in all things except what is Haram,i mean what Allah forbids,Allah specifically said a righteous woman obeys her husband,i don't know what some women are feeling these days,Alhamdullilahi, the sisters i keeps as friends always mute when their husbands talk,until He finishes,they don't argue,at the end it pays the wife,She gets rewarded firstly for obeying Allah in that verse,secondly she gets reward for obeying her Husband.

Honestly Deol,if you already have the plan to live like your writeups,its only happens in fairys,am in a three years marriage i can tell you majority of men likes their wives to be submisive regardless of whatever except what Allah forbids.