I have never seen a fish turn human. No two people have seen it together. No visual or audio has captured it.

Yet you believe it that humans evolved from fish.

italo: That you have not seen something is NEVER proof that it doesnt exist.

I believe thinking humans can agree on that point.

Absence of evidence, is evidence of absence. . .What is asserted without evidence needs to be dismissed without evidence. .

Your god doesn't have to be seen. . .No two people that even feel your god agree on him. You guys claim that is the only way to know your god . . .People that claim to feel him all keep telling us very contradictory things about him. . . The problem is even christians do not agree on the BASIC nature of your god. . .While some say he is 3 in one,others say he is not 3 in one. .While others claim that they feel him when they speak in tongues, others do not agree that he can be felt that way. While others claim he can heal them, many do not agree that he heals directly etc. .I told you that many christians that buy into your god idea here on nairaland have publicly called those that belong to your sect pagans who are lost and do not know what they are doing. . .

You see, its very clear and obvious that people are just making things up and hiding behind the god idea. .God remains an idea as such people are just following the idea and making things up. . .

mazaje:

Absence of evidence, is evidence of absence. . .

FALLACY!

If you dont have evidence that a coin is buried somewhere in the world, it wouldnt mean there is no coin buried anywhere in the world.

mazaje:

What is asserted without evidence needs to be dismissed without evidence. .

Since you assert that God doesnt exist without evidence, I can dismiss it without evidence.

mazaje:

Your god doesn't have to be seen. . .No two people that even feel your god agree on him. You guys claim that is the only way to know your god . . .People that claim to feel him all keep telling us very contradictory things about him. . . The problem is even christians do not agree on the BASIC nature of your god. . .While some say he is 3 in one,others say he is not 3 in one. .While others claim that they feel him when they speak in tongues, others do not agree that he can be felt that way. While others claim he can heal them, many do not agree that he heals directly etc. .I told you that many christians that buy into your god idea here on nairaland have publicly called those that belong to your sect pagans who are lost and do not know what they are doing. . .

You see, its very clear and obvious that people are just making things up and hiding behind the god idea. .God remains an idea as such people are just following the idea and making things up. . .

People also say contradictory things about love, evolution, life and everything on the face of the earth.

It means all these things dont exist?

Dont be silly!

italo: That you have not seen something is NEVER proof that it doesnt exist.

I believe thinking humans can agree on that point.

if we can't see something, can't hear it, can't measure or quantify if, can't trace it, can't mathematically deduce it, then it mostly likely does not exist.

So you agree that it is not a certainty that God doesnt exist.

Meaning that it is possible God exists.

Hmm...how positions are changing.

Can I call you agnostic now?

plaetton:
if we can't see something, can't hear it, can't measure or quantify if, can't trace it, can't mathematically deduce it, then it mostly likely does not exist.

Una de waste una time with Italo. He's not even a brilliant apologist. He's trying by all means to shift the burden of proof even when its obvious that he's making silly statements.

The only 'proof' he has been able to profer is to tell us to go to god with humility and he will reveal himself. I mean, How silly is that?

Now he's here squirming like a cornered rat. Mcheew!

What proof have you offered for your claims?

Mention one.

Mr Troll: Una de waste una time with Italo. He's not even a brilliant apologist. He's trying by all means to shift the burden of proof even when its obvious that he's making silly statements.

The only 'proof' he has been able to profer is to tell us to go to god with humility and he will reveal himself. I mean, How silly is that?

Now he's here squirming like a cornered rat. Mcheew!

italo: So you agree that it is not a certainty that God doesnt exist.

Meaning that it is possible God exists.

Hmm...how positions are changing.

Can I call you agnostic now?

Did I do typo, or that you failed to comprehend what I wrote?
Your god does not meet the barest minimum of proof. Made.
For example, when you believe in gravity or not, it acts upon u in a measurable, observable way.

italo: What proof have you offered for your claims?

Mention one.

what are my claims
Mention one.

plaetton:


Did I do typo, or that you failed to comprehend what I wrote?

most likely the latter. This guy is just grasping at straws. Smh

Anyways. Back to topic.
@Italo
Prayer is evidence of doubt. Special prayer is more evidence of doubt, and prayer intercession, is that some type of delegated faith? Faith by proxy?

Isn't that the mother of all doubts about faith?

@ Italo.

I reckon that you are smart fellow, unless Logicboy or Mr Troll wants to object to that, lol.

Now, tell me why layers of myths piled on top of each other, priesthoods, an enormous edifice of power, intrigues and secrecy have been built over several thousand years all just to defend the very very simple idea of what is supposed to be a real and self-evident god of the universe.
Does that make any sense at all?

Again I ask you, where is the priesthood, the enormous edifice of power, intrigue and secrecy that promotes the real and self-evident things like, say, gravity?
When was the last time a priest of gravity came to knock on your door to preach the good news?

I put it to you Italo, Reginus eta al, that the many many layers of myths, the bible, and other sacred texts of the monotheistic religions, the priesthoods, the enormous edifice of power, intrigues and secrecy were purposefully founded, built, and exists for sole purpose of checkmating, discouraging, confronting and perpetually battling the very obvious, the very very tiny and very very simple and common aspect of human reasoning commonly referred to as Doubt.

So, even though religion is about faith, it is arises from the lack of faith, not the presence of faith as we have been conditioned to believe.

Religious faith is a perpetual battle against doubt. The entire edifice of the Abrahamic religions, their myths, their doctrines, their threats: all are targeted at Doubt.

Religious faith is an exercise in Doubt, against Doubt.
It is extreme doubt. An extreme form of atheism
Doubt that conjures up layers of myths and layers of doctrines around itself in an attempt to annihilate itself.

A mind suffused with faith is a mind at war with itself.

It is no wonder that religious faith has often been likened to mild forms of mental illnesses.

Ask yourself, why does a real self-evident creator of the universe need to be perpetually promoted and defended by an astonishing battalion of myths, priesthoods, doctrines, the enormous edifice of organized religion, and , of course, threats of eternal punishment for failure to relinquish inner doubt?
Why?
Why can't god be simply self-evident?.

A self-evident god would require no myths, no religion and certainly no priesthood.

Religion and faith would be redundant and superfluous for a real, self-evident god.

Has Plaetton just killed this thread?

Good post, Plaetton.

musKeeto: Has Plaetton just killed this thread?

Good post, Plaetton.

i bet you a million rupees that italo will not understand what Plaeton posted up there.

Are you saying that it is unlikely that God is, or are you saying God isnt?

Be clear.

plaetton:


Did I do typo, or that you failed to comprehend what I wrote?
Your god does not meet the barest minimum of proof. Made.
For example, when you believe in gravity or not, it acts upon u in a measurable, observable way.

You're fallacious.

What is prayer?

I bet you dont know what it is that is why you say these.

plaetton: Anyways. Back to topic.
@Italo
Prayer is evidence of doubt. Special prayer is more evidence of doubt, and prayer intercession, is that some type of delegated faith? Faith by proxy?

Isn't that the mother of all doubts about faith?

plaetton: @ Italo.

Now, tell me why layers of myths piled on top of each other, priesthoods, an enormous edifice of power, intrigues and secrecy have been built over several thousand years all just to defend the very very simple idea of what is supposed to be a real and self-evident god of the universe.
Does that make any sense at all?

We dont necessary defend God. We just love and worship him.

Why are you having sleepless nights over something you claim doesnt exist. You talk about God more than most religious people. Why this edifice of arguments, aggression, killing for thousands of years over something that doesnt exist?

Does that make sense at all?

plaetton:

Again I ask you, where is the priesthood, the enormous edifice of power, intrigue and secrecy that promotes the real and self-evident things like, say, gravity?
When was the last time a priest of gravity came to knock on your door to preach the good news?

There are edifices, intrigues and secrecy all over the world to promote governments, monarchies, sports, wealth Etc. And their promoters are their priesthood. Are you saying these things dont exist?

plaetton:

I put it to you Italo, Reginus eta al, that the many many layers of myths, the bible, and other sacred texts of the monotheistic religions, the priesthoods, the enormous edifice of power, intrigues and secrecy were purposefully founded, built, and exists for sole purpose of checkmating, discouraging, confronting and perpetually battling the very obvious, the very very tiny and very very simple and common aspect of human reasoning commonly referred to as Doubt.

You're saying that's the reason for magnificent palaces, stadiums, intrigues and secrecy in every aspect of government?

DOUBT?

What are you smoking?

plaetton:

So, even though religion is about faith, it is arises from the lack of faith, not the presence of faith as we have been conditioned to believe.

Nobody gives his life for something that he doubts.

plaetton:

Religious faith is a perpetual battle against doubt. The entire edifice of the Abrahamic religions, their myths, their doctrines, their threats: all are targeted at Doubt.

Atheism is a perpetual battle against faith in God. Your sleepless nights and epistles, your doctrines, your ridicules and aggression are all an attempt to suppress and deny your faith.

plaetton:

Religious faith is an exercise in Doubt, against Doubt.
It is extreme doubt. An extreme form of atheism
Doubt that conjures up layers of myths and layers of doctrines around itself in an attempt to annihilate itself.

A mind suffused with faith is a mind at war with itself.

Atheism is an exercise in faith...against faith...in denial of faith...in suppression of faith. It is a religion where you conjure falsehoods and live in denial thereby worshipping your own self.

plaetton:

It is no wonder that religious faith has often been likened to mild forms of mental illnesses.

Ah ah! But in a 2004 research in UCLA, scholars found that religious student had better mental health than the irreligious.

plaetton:

Ask yourself, why does a real self-evident creator of the universe need to be perpetually promoted and defended by an astonishing battalion of myths, priesthoods, doctrines, the enormous edifice of organized religion, and , of course, threats of eternal punishment for failure to relinquish inner doubt?
Why?
Why can't god be simply self-evident?.

You're asking why cant monarchies and governments be self evident without palaces and promotion and propaganda and secrecy and intrigue?

Wonderful!

plaetton:

A self-evident god would require no myths, no religion and certainly no priesthood.

Religion and faith would be redundant and superfluous for a real, self-evident god.

A non existent being would need no arguments against it. The wont be Atheism. No need for priest plaetton to preach against him to his congregation.

]

nnofaith: i bet you a million rupees that italo will not understand what Plaeton posted up there.

Bet won!!!

May almighty Arakh continue to shower you with blessings for this wonderful prophecies. You are the true prophet of Arakh. TB who?


So many false analogies, smh. And fat fat strawmen to boot

plaetton: Anyways. Back to topic.
@Italo
Prayer is evidence of doubt. Special prayer is more evidence of doubt, and prayer intercession, is that some type of delegated faith? Faith by proxy?

Isn't that the mother of all doubts about faith?

ok I understand why you probably made this statement but In order to properly respond I ask that you explain what you really meant @ bolded.. I don't think you understand fully what prayer really is..

We are all always PRAYING. religious and non religious alike.. Prayer is simply an intent..intention is prayer..prayer is really a fervent statement of what is so..

So therefore you could say there is evidence of doubt in the form of prayer most Christian's engages in - supplication-, but that should in no way equate to your postulation that prayer is evidence of doubt..

greatgenius: ok I understand why you probably made this statement but In order to properly respond I ask that you explain what you really meant @ bolded.. I don't think you understand fully what prayer really is..

We are all always PRAYING. religious and non religious alike.. Prayer is simply an intent..intention is prayer..prayer is really a fervent statement of what is so..

So therefore you could say there is evidence of doubt in the form of prayer most Christian's engages in - supplication-, but that should in no way equate to your population that prayer is evidence of doubt..

he's talking about it in the christian context.

plaetton: @ Italo.

I reckon that you are smart fellow, unless Logicboy or Mr Troll wants to object to that, lol.

Now, tell me why layers of myths piled on top of each other, priesthoods, an enormous edifice of power, intrigues and secrecy have been built over several thousand years all just to defend the very very simple idea of what is supposed to be a real and self-evident god of the universe.
Does that make any sense at all?

Again I ask you, where is the priesthood, the enormous edifice of power, intrigue and secrecy that promotes the real and self-evident things like, say, gravity?
When was the last time a priest of gravity came to knock on your door to preach the good news?

I put it to you Italo, Reginus eta al, that the many many layers of myths, the bible, and other sacred texts of the monotheistic religions, the priesthoods, the enormous edifice of power, intrigues and secrecy were purposefully founded, built, and exists for sole purpose of checkmating, discouraging, confronting and perpetually battling the very obvious, the very very tiny and very very simple and common aspect of human reasoning commonly referred to as Doubt.

So, even though religion is about faith, it is arises from the lack of faith, not the presence of faith as we have been conditioned to believe.

Religious faith is a perpetual battle against doubt. The entire edifice of the Abrahamic religions, their myths, their doctrines, their threats: all are targeted at Doubt.

Religious faith is an exercise in Doubt, against Doubt.
It is extreme doubt. An extreme form of atheism
Doubt that conjures up layers of myths and layers of doctrines around itself in an attempt to annihilate itself.

A mind suffused with faith is a mind at war with itself.

It is no wonder that religious faith has often been likened to mild forms of mental illnesses.

Ask yourself, why does a real self-evident creator of the universe need to be perpetually promoted and defended by an astonishing battalion of myths, priesthoods, doctrines, the enormous edifice of organized religion, and , of course, threats of eternal punishment for failure to relinquish inner doubt?
Why?
Why can't god be simply self-evident?.

A self-evident god would require no myths, no religion and certainly no priesthood.

Religion and faith would be redundant and superfluous for a real, self-evident god.

This is a good case against religion albeit with its distortions but certainly not against GOD.. This piece in anyway does not disprove that GOD exist or is self evident.. It only picks the holes in the fallacies of religion... God needs no religion and requires no priests nor any form of worship..

Mr Troll: he's talking about it in the christian context.

I figured but he should have made it clear what his contentions was against before making such an assertion... Is his argument against God or religion?

I have come to the conclusion that most of you pseudo atheist actually have a problem with religion - and rightly so - but it should in no way be the reason for their proposition against theism. Unfortunately that is the case among many "atheists"... The funny thing is most of these pseudo atheist think atheism equals " belief in no god "..

greatgenius: This is a good case against religion albeit with its distortions but certainly not against GOD.. This piece in anyway does not disprove that GOD exist or is self evident.. It only picks the holes in the fallacies of religion... God needs no religion and requires no priests nor any form of worship..

Exactly my point. A self-evident god doesn't need worship and supplication.

Even a giant ball of colorless, tasteless and odorless gas can still be self evident in its reactions to other substances.
Only a none existent concept, a mental contraption, would need a gargantuan edifice of myths, doctrines, priesthoods, and threats to perpetuate itself.

plaetton:

Exactly my point. A self-evident god doesn't need worship and supplication.

Even a giant ball of colorless, tasteless gas can still be self evident in its reactions to other substance.
Only a none existent concept, a mental contraption, would need a gargantuan edifice of myths, doctrines, priesthoods, and threats to perpetuate itself.

ok so we getting somewhere .. we both agree that religion is fallacious .. now is that your evidence against the existence of God?

@greatgenius
One cannot be an atheist without recognizing the sheer absurdity of religious beliefs .
They say it is faith. My position here is that faith is simply the extreme form of doubt.

In other words, the faithful are simply swimming in a sea of fearful doubts.

God is a concept, perhaps worthy of investigation, but nevertheless, a concept.

If god is self evident, only scientific enquiry, not religion, not philosophy, not subjective spiritual mumbo jumbo can proven it in a universally accepted way.

greatgenius: I figured but he should have made it clear what his contentions was against before making such an assertion... Is his argument against God or religion?

I have come to the conclusion that most of you pseudo atheist actually have a problem with religion - and rightly so - but it should in no way be the reason for their proposition against theism. Unfortunately that is the case among many "atheists"... The funny thing is most of these pseudo atheist think atheism equals " belief in no god "..

er...what is this?

Logicboy03:



A 10-feet dwarf can not exist the same way an omniscient God who knows everything but gives freewill can not.

why not the bolded?

plaetton: @greatgenius
One cannot be an atheist without recognizing the sheer absurdity of religious beliefs .
They say it is faith. My position here is that faith is simply the extreme form of doubt.

In other words, the faithful are simply swimming in a sea of fearful doubts.

True it is absurd for any reasonable mind to hold the belief that an unconditional loving God- which she is - punishes etc but it is equally absurd to to aver that God does not exist because of another erroneously holding such a belief - a God that punishes..

And yes I agree that it is not faith but stupidity and the laziness to reason for themselves .. faith is not blindly following - that's stupidity..faith is knowledge ..it is common sense. Faith is reason..it is surety. It is believing with reason and common sense/intelligence.. religion practices faith based on foolishness..

BTW faith is not the extreme form of doubt but of belief ..it is like love and hate. Light/ darkness..

plaetton: God is a concept, perhaps worthy of investigation, but nevertheless, a concept.

If god is self evident, only scientific enquiry, not religion, not philosophy, not subjective spiritual mumbo jumbo can proven it in a universally accepted way.

lol at only scientific enquiry. Ok lets try it this way.. First are you an atheist or agnostic? second what is God. or what is the meaning of God, or since we are speaking of concept, what is the concept of God. third what is the spiritual mean to you..
let me know your position on these and then lets discuss

greatgenius: lol at only scientific enquiry. Ok lets try it this way.. First are you an atheist or agnostic? second what is God. or what is the meaning of God, or since we are speaking of concept, what is the concept of God. third what is the spiritual mean to you..
let me know your position on these and then lets discuss

I am definitely a pantheist atheist. That is, I believe that energy is the only self-existent thing. Infact, the only thing that exists.
Everything is the manifestation of energy. If you want to say energy = god, be my guest.
The problem with the word god is that it carries too much contentious baggages.

Energy , on the other hand, is self evident. It certainly does not need a priesthood or an enormous edifice to prop and promote it.


As for spiritual, I have asked many times for a definition of spiritual and I get are people speaking in tongues.
I intend to open another thread soon on "Spiritual".
For now, what we normally refer to as spiritual are simply concepts and phenomena that are yet to be fully scientifically understood.
Most of us are not up to date with new scientific ideas and new trends in scientific enquiry. If we do, then we soon recognize slow but inevitable convergence of scientifically knonw facts with things and ideas that hitherto had been long relegated to the realms of the "spiritual".

Past spiritual concepts are today's physics.
Today's spiritual concepts are tomorrow's Higher Physics such as in Quantum physics, Scalar Physics, Torsion Field Physics, etc.

If you study these concepts, then you immediately recognized that you are now delving into the realms of what has , up till now, been considered the "spiritual".

plaetton:

I am definitely a pantheist atheist. That is, I believe that energy is the only self-existent thing. Infact, the only thing that exists.
Everything is the manifestation of energy. If you want to say energy = god, be my guest.
The problem with the word god is that it carries too much contentious baggages.

Energy , on the other hand, is self evident. It certainly does not need a priesthood or an enormous edifice to prop and promote it.


As for spiritual, I have asked many times for a definition of spiritual and I get are people speaking in tongues.
I intend to open another thread soon on "Spiritual".
For now, what we normally refer to as spiritual are simply concepts and phenomena that are yet to be fully scientifically understood.
Most of us are not up to date with new scientific ideas and new trends in scientific enquiry. If we do, then we soon recognize slow but inevitable convergence of scientifically knonw facts with things and ideas that hitherto had been long relegated to the realms of the "spiritual".

Past spiritual concepts are today's physics.
Today's spiritual concepts are tomorrow's Higher Physics such as in Quantum physics, Scalar Physics, Torsion Field Physics, etc.

If you study these concepts, then you immediately recognized that you are now delving into the realms of what has , up till now, been considered the "spiritual".

ok now I sort of know your position on those three questions..
Now that we have established a foundation I ask that we take one topic at a time and expatiate on it before we move to the next.

Let's start with God.. what exactly do you mean by pantheist atheism ? Are saying you believe everything is a manifestation of God yet believes this God does not exist? .. I want a clarification before I make a comment on your is god = energy statement and then also give my position