idnoble135: Alwaystrue, you have a mail.

Eyin mejeji, e ma tan ra yin. Abosi o lere o.

For a start, I'm not really interested in this discussion and it is a digression on this thread. I only indulged because I said I'd answer.

Second, you are under some misconceptions and you have not really understood my answers or the relevant passages. I will try once more with some of the points in your post but I do not think I wlll answer any further questions on this particular matter.

idnoble135: @Enigma, maybe i should quote the scripture.
Then Peter said, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of the of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:38

It still does not say that they must be baptised in order to receive!

idnoble135: Hope you noticed the connection? But that aside, thats not where i'm going to.
The important thing is the gift of the Holy Spirit was for those who had accepted Christ and were now God's children.

The gift of the Holy Spirit was actually given to a number of people in the Old Testament --- even before Jesus came let alone before He died!

idnoble135: In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of
truth, the gospel of your
salvation; in whom also,
having believed, you were
sealed with the Holy Spirit of
promise

Yep, the sealing of the Spirit is another gift of God which helps Christians with assurance --- knowing that they are and will be saved, no matter what.

idnoble135: That now established.
You talking about Apostle Paul. I did not type that they had to repent to recieve the Holy Spirit. No! I said he told the disciples to be baptized with the baptism of the Lord.

Yes he told them to be baptised; but this was after they had already believed or after they were already saved!

idnoble135: Thirdly, the verse that you gave in 1 Cor does not rhyme with what we are saying. The verse talks of desiring gifts . The Holy Spirit is a gift not gifts.

The giving of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is a gift; the giving of the Holy Spirit for indwelling is a gift; the giving of the Holy Spirit for sealing is a gift. The giving of spiritual gifts is a gift. They are all gifts. You should be careful about use of English and semantics and making irrelevant "spiritual" distinctions.

idnoble135: Therefore, that verse does not apply.

If you say so!

idnoble135: Besides, how can they desire the Holy Spirit if they knew nothing about Him or Jesus?

They knew about Jesus alright; they just did not know about the Holy Spirit.

idnoble135: That point is invalid..

Again, if you say so!

idnoble135: Now, the thing i'm saying here is, you said i was dishonest because a verse applied to Mark but not to Mathew.

I did not say this at all!

idnoble135: Meaning i'm using different principles.

Well, you still haven't shown us how Jesus was speaking to the youth in Mark 10:21 under the law but not to the Pharisees in Matthew 23:23 under the law!

idnoble135: But God using different principles here must be dishonest too. Agree?
If your answer is no, then, i'm not guilty.

In the example you have tried to use, I don't see where God has used different principles. The gift of the Holy Spirit is entirely at the choice and pleasure of God --- in all of the examples you gave. It is still at His choice and pleasure today. What is more even the timing is at His choice and pleasure and that is one of the significant differences in the examples you are relying on.

@Goshen, even if i state my view, it might not change anything.
Beside, if you read how the conversation went, you'd know that i was not leaving the topic. Patience is a great virtue.
@PastorKun, cant believe you are yet to utter a word. You were the one questioning me, on this thread, i spoke in brief, and you are yet keeping mute? Incredulous!

Goshen360:

Eyin mejeji, e ma tan ra yin. Abosi o lere o.

This post was seen.

idnoble135: @Goshen, even if i state my view, it might not change anything.
Beside, if you read how the conversation went, you'd know that i was not leaving the topic. Patience is a great virtue.
@PastorKun, cant believe you are yet to utter a word. You were the one questioning me, on this thread, i spoke in brief, and you are yet keeping mute? Incredulous!

I just came back online since yesterday to see that like three pages has been added to this thread since I last checked in. It's a bit difficult to go back and read all the back and forth arguments + the scriptural manipulation you guys engage in but I am trying to bring myself up to speed with the thread before I contribute so I don't draw the thread back again.

idnoble135:
This post was seen.

I go flog you when I come home o.

@Enigma, i have not asked an
question on tithe yet. Oga oo.
1. The Holy Spirit was given to
those in the old testament.
Not to
dwell in them but upon them. The Holy Spirit could
withdraw from them.
Thats why David cried, "do
not take your Spirit from
me". But with us
Jesus said the Holy Spirit would abide with us forever.
John 14:16.
That debunks your statement
still.
2. Lol! I get your point. But in
whatever case, the passage in 1 Cor
does not apply to my
question.
3. Cornelius could not have
known about Jesus. If he
knew, he would have believed. The words of
the angel confirms this. The
introduction
of Jesus by Peter to them
showed they never knew.
4. I already did, Jesus did not cancel tithe. It even predated
the
law. It was not just a matter
of the law.
5. The gift of the Holy Spirit is
not God's responsibility. God gave
the Holy Spirit only in chapter
one. The other times, we are told the recieved the gift. But in chapter ten, God gave the gift who were yet still not born again.
My point which you have tried to ignore is that God operated two different principles. We still remember Jesus saying the world could not recieve the Holy Spirit. Those folks were still not yet in the Kingdom(Rom 10:10) but God gave them.
Now that this has been said, i showed you already that Mark could not apply and why. Dont know what you want me to say again.
But i do have questions pls. Questions related to the topic.
If you are not "interested in the discussion", we could draw the curtains.

Pastor Kun:

I just came back online since yesterday to see that like three pages has been added to this thread since I last checked in. It's a bit difficult to go back and read all the back and forth arguments + the scriptural manipulation you guys engage in but I am trying to bring myself up to speed with the thread before I contribute so I don't draw the thread back again.

Welcome back.
But i laugh! I laugh in tongues! I manipulated the bible because it did not go down well with you bible "teachers"?
Would be waiting. I wish you a happy reading.

Goshen360:

I go flog you when I come home o.

A king of Israel once told his opponent not to brag till the battle is fought.
You are not my opponent. We are not fighting.
But dont brag till the time is come.

idnoble135: @Enigma, i have not asked an
question on tithe yet. Oga oo.
1. The Holy Spirit was given to
those in the old testament.
Not to
dwell in them but upon them. The Holy Spirit could
withdraw from them.
Thats why David cried, "do
not take your Spirit from
me". But with us
Jesus said the Holy Spirit would abide with us forever.
John 14:16.
That debunks your statement
still.
2. Lol! I get your point. But in
whatever case, the passage in 1 Cor
does not apply to my
question.
3. Cornelius could not have
known about Jesus. If he
knew, he would have believed. The words of
the angel confirms this. The
introduction
of Jesus by Peter to them
showed they never knew.
4. I already did, Jesus did not cancel tithe. It even predated
the
law. It was not just a matter
of the law.
5. The gift of the Holy Spirit is
not God's responsibility. God gave
the Holy Spirit only in chapter
one. The other times, we are told the recieved the gift. But in chapter ten, God gave the gift who were yet still not born again.
My point which you have tried to ignore is that God operated two different principles. We still remember Jesus saying the world could not recieve the Holy Spirit. Those folks were still not yet in the Kingdom(Rom 10:10) but God gave them.
Now that this has been said, i showed you already that Mark could not apply and why. Dont know what you want me to say again.
But i do have questions pls. Questions related to the topic.
If you are not "interested in the discussion", we could draw the curtains.

Unfortunately, you do not really realise how ignorant and misinformed about scriptures you are. And it is quite painful anytime I see a brother who has been hoodwinked by false doctrine such that they cannot or that they even refuse to see clearly.

This problem is why you have of course been unable to answer this simply question straight or honestly: why should we follow the statement on "tithes" but not the one on eternal life?

I don't think I will deal with anything else in your post; it is just not worth it!

Enigma:

Unfortunately, you do not really realise how ignorant and misinformed about scriptures you are. And it is quite painful anytime I see a brother who has been hoodwinked by false doctrine such that they cannot or that they even refuse to see clearly.

This problem is why you have of course been unable to answer this simply question straight or honestly: why should we follow the statement on "tithes" but not the one on eternal life?

I don't think I will deal with anything else in your post; it is just not worth it!

Brother, don't waste your precious time. Time is money.

Enigma:

Unfortunately, you do not really realise how ignorant and misinformed about scriptures you are. And it is quite painful anytime I see a brother who has been hoodwinked by false doctrine such that they cannot or that they even refuse to see clearly.

This problem is why you have of course been unable to answer this simply question straight or honestly: why should we follow the statement on "tithes" but not the one on eternal life?

I don't think I will deal with anything else in your post; it is just not worth it!

@Idnoble I really need you to answer the bolded question else you would be deemed a hypocrite on this forum.

@All the answer to the bolded is obvious; the tithe scripture benefits the preacher whilst the eternal life scripture benefits the poor that most of these preachers don't really care about. It's a classic case of picking and choosing.

I've spoken about it before and this will be definitely the last time i would.
The text of Mark 10 reads,

17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came
running, knelt before Him, and
asked Him, “Good Teacher,
what shall I do that I may
inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is
good but One, that is, God.
19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not
commit adultery,’ ‘Do not
murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not
bear false witness,’ ‘Do not
defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’”
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these
things I have kept from my
youth.”
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him,
“One thing you lack: Go your
way, sell whatever you have
and give to the poor, and you
will have treasure in heaven;
and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
The young man's request was that he sought how to gain eternal life.
Why did Jesus quote the law and gave a definite instruction to the young man? I have stated that it is so because the law was "ordained" by God. It was intended to give life. Jesus could not tell the man in question to believe on the redemptive work because He was yet to go to the cross.
So, Christ told him how to get eternal life. And at that point, the only way was in law.
.... And the commandment,
which was ordained to life..
Rom 7:10
But that principle can no longer work because the eternal life that we would try to gain via the law is available to us by believe in the saving work of Christ (Rom 10:10, Ephe 2:.
Now, that of mark here is in no way extinct, because it was not nullified. No, not at any point.
The earlier was a matter of time dispensation. The later was a matter of principle that abides still.

For all those whose main aim is to learn on why Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell his possessions:
https://www.nairaland.com/1456343/tithes-offerings-eternal-principles/6#18444245

If still in doubt just check the scriptures below and decide for yourself why Jesus said what He said and please look at it in the light of my post linked above:

Please note that the young ruler said he had obeyed the law from his childhood so there was no issue but he lacked one thing:
What he lacked was not 'GO AND SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS', what he lacked that kept him from being perfect was why He refused to do what Jesus told him: LOVE OF EARTHLY POSSESSIONS and TRUST IN RICHES....that was where He was LACKING!

Luke 18:20-23
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich

The letter truly killeth but the Spirit giveth life.


@Idnoble,
Thanks for the expose. Please send the last one. These things are deep. The entrance of God's word indeed brings light.

And the way you guys sound, if you are discontented with having a talk and not including sentiments, you might as well unfollow the thread.
I'm not trying to be rude but i'm getting pissed off with some folks not making any point on the thread but to just look for how to mock/degrade/look down on the pro tithe believers.
And to add, i checked in to a thread on the front page. Your anti tithe ally got just about eleven likes as at when i checked it.
The pro tithes (not even a poster in this section) got about forty eight likes. Thats over four times over even though i believe some atheist liked the anti tithe post.
Despite all your efforts of taking anti tithe threads to the front page, a large percentage of people still know the truth. Joagbaje might have been right afterall when he said folks were growing in the knowledge. Your anti tithe threads and hostility forced me to seek light for myself.
Only God knows how many folks out there are like me.
My final line: if this thing is of God, forget, you can do NOTHING about it. If it is not, be rest assured that it will fall.
Shalom!

I'm afraid saying ridiculous things is in itself an invitation to be ridiculed!

Saying that the tithing of mint, anise and cummin by Pharisees who were upbraided with 'woes' is an "eternal principle" is a big invitation to ridicule.

Matthew 23:23
Jesus said: Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought you to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

***EDITED***
Bro Enigma, i respect you. And i expect that too.
To your post, i have answered you. You are not okay with it. But i did give you an answer.
Guess you might want to unfollow thread since you are not interested in it, right?
If yes, God be with you.

Thanks and yes you have given an 'answer'. I do believe that you honestly think your answer is satisfactory. I think it is not and that it is far from satisfactory.

I am happy to leave it at that. However, I am not going to unfollow the thread; if I see anything I wish to contribute to, I will.

Enigma:

Unfortunately, you do not really realise how ignorant and misinformed about scriptures you are. And it is quite painful anytime I see a brother who has been hoodwinked by false doctrine such that they cannot or that they even refuse to see clearly.

This problem is why you have of course been unable to answer this simply question straight or honestly: why should we follow the statement on "tithes" but not the one on eternal life?

I don't think I will deal with anything else in your post; it is just not worth it!

DISHONESTY IS PART OF THEIR CHARACTER,check out Bidam, Alwaystrue, image123,OLA, even Joagbaje who opened d thread n promised to post d conclusions, where is he? D ppl can't help but to b dishonest bc there is no verse in d entire bicle to rationalize their fraud.

Enigma: Thanks and yes you have given an 'answer'. I do believe that you honestly think your answer is satisfactory. I think it is not and that it is far from satisfactory.

I am happy to leave it at that. However, I am not going to unfollow the thread; if I see anything I wish to contribute to, I will.

Stay to see something to contribute and not given an answer to questions i earlier posed shey?
God is your strength o.

^^^ What are you talking about?

I believe Joagbaje is a very busy man.
Can defamation of character and stabbing among believers at the side ever stop? No wonder some people no longer believe in God.
*sighs*
Hmhmmm

It wont be proper to try to claim you have no idea of what i meant. Re-read and try to re collect.

Nah, I don't think I'll bother to "re-read and try to re collect"!

And yes, if I see anything I wish to contribute to I will.

idnoble135: And the way you guys sound, if you are discontented with having a talk and not including sentiments, you might as well unfollow the thread.
I'm not trying to be rude but i'm getting pissed off with some folks not making any point on the thread but to just look for how to mock/degrade/look down on the pro tithe believers.
And to add, i checked in to a thread on the front page. Your anti tithe ally got just about eleven likes as at when i checked it.
The pro tithes (not even a poster in this section) got about forty eight likes. Thats over four times over even though i believe some atheist liked the anti tithe post.
Despite all your efforts of taking anti tithe threads to the front page, a large percentage of people still know the truth. Joagbaje might have been right afterall when he said folks were growing in the knowledge. Your anti tithe threads and hostility forced me to seek light for myself.
Only God knows how many folks out there are like me.
My final line: if this thing is of God, forget, you can do NOTHING about it. If it is not, be rest assured that it will fall.
Shalom!

i'm nt supposed to respond to u but just bc u refer to my post on dat thread. How do u think ppl who have been put in prison for centuries by such a fraud will just embrase freedom without withdrawal effect, checkout why we au recidivists even when slave trade was acolished, it took d freed slaves time to accept freedom. For us to even come out to speak agains this accepted fraud is a big victory. Pls ignore this and continue with ur twisting of scripture to sustain tithe fraud.

LOL! A prisoner in jail for over ten years when given freedom will jump at it.
You guys have been posting anti thread as far back as 2010. I even remember reading a thread where Enigma had a bible talk with one lady(forgotten her moniker). Since 2010, just eleven converts of whom maybe one third were atheists? I laugh in tongues.
The fact is, no one is in bondage. Go relax.
P. S
Put more effort into it.
Seems no one is giving heed to your 'freedom' doctrine.

idnoble135: I've spoken about it before and this will be definitely the last time i would.
The text of Mark 10 reads,

17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came
running, knelt before Him, and
asked Him, “Good Teacher,
what shall I do that I may
inherit eternal life?”
18 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is
good but One, that is, God.
19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not
commit adultery,’ ‘Do not
murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not
bear false witness,’ ‘Do not
defraud,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother.’”
20 And he answered and said to Him, “Teacher, all these
things I have kept from my
youth.”
21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him,
“One thing you lack: Go your
way, sell whatever you have
and give to the poor, and you
will have treasure in heaven;
and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
The young man's request was that he sought how to gain eternal life.
Why did Jesus quote the law and gave a definite instruction to the young man? I have stated that it is so because the law was "ordained" by God. It was intended to give life. Jesus could not tell the man in question to believe on the redemptive work because He was yet to go to the cross.
So, Christ told him how to get eternal life. And at that point, the only way was in law.
.... And the commandment,
which was ordained to life..
Rom 7:10
But that principle can no longer work because the eternal life that we would try to gain via the law is available to us by believe in the saving work of Christ (Rom 10:10, Ephe 2:.
Now, that of mark here is in no way extinct, because it was not nullified. No, not at any point.
The earlier was a matter of time dispensation. The later was a matter of principle that abides still.

Alwaystrue: For all those whose main aim is to learn on why Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell his possessions:
https://www.nairaland.com/1456343/tithes-offerings-eternal-principles/6#18444245

If still in doubt just check the scriptures below and decide for yourself why Jesus said what He said and please look at it in the light of my post linked above:

Please note that the young ruler said he had obeyed the law from his childhood so there was no issue but he lacked one thing:
What he lacked was not 'GO AND SELL YOUR POSSESSIONS', what he lacked that kept him from being perfect was why He refused to do what Jesus told him: LOVE OF EARTHLY POSSESSIONS and TRUST IN RICHES....that was what HE lacked!

Luke 18:20-23
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich

The letter truly killeth but the Spirit giveth life.


@Idnoble,
Thanks for the expose. Please send the last one. These things are deep. The entrance of God's word indeed brings light.

One said the law ordained to give life. Why then is Christ the resurrection and the life? Why would same Paul call the law, even 10 commandments minister of death? If the law gives life, since the young man had kept it from his youth, he would have had that 'life' and Jesus would not have told him otherwise. When you study, check word meanings. One word on the surface can mean different thing in the lens of concordance. That 'life' is not the ZOE life we have in Christ. I DARE YOU TO PICK UP A CONCORDANCE.

The other was analysing that scriptures, not knowing that the law was as a result of man trying to meet God demand and man cannot meet it all - MAN WILL ALWAYS LACK ONE THING IN KEEPING THE MOSAIC LAW LIKE THIS YOUNG MAN.

One of them said Christ came to show the true intent of the law. The other said, Christ came to make it higher. When people of the law can't keep simple 'thou shall not commit adultery' and Christ had to make it higher for them? Are you serious? They can't keep the simple or lower law, is the higher law they will keep? Christ never make law harder or higher, he came TO CURE THE ROOT OF SIN IN MAN. That is, what makes a man to have 'thou shall not commit adultery' but people are still caught in the act, is what Christ came to cure - the heart.

To the other who said, Christ came to show true intent of the law. How do show the true intent of 'if your right hand make you sin, CUT IT OFF? It means cut off your hand and nothing else it means.

The young man 'prided' himself in keeping the law as a means of having eternal life but no man under heaven can be made right with God by means of keeping the law, not the whole of it.

The young man said he kept the law FROM HIS CHILDHOOD but Christ proved to him he BROKE THE VERY FIRST COMMANDMENT FROM HIS CHILDHOOD. Therefore, he BROKE all. The first commandment, thou shall have no other God besides me. This man had money AS HIS GOD...breaking the first commandment and that means he BROKE all, kept nothing. There's always something hiding behind the law that cannot make man keep it all, it will always unmask you.

Here is a question I put to idnoble earlier:

Jesus spoke to the youth ---- according to the law; was He not also speaking to the Pharisees in Matthew 23:23 according to the law when He said they ought to have tithed mint, cummin etc?

Now he says he asked me a question that I did not answer. I disagree with this. What I see, rather, is him going to technical analysis to say that Jesus' statement to the youth does not apply to Christians.

Perhaps he does not see his own double-standard but we see it and we have been pointing it out to him; his failing to see it or pretending not to see it after it was pointed out to him is inexcusable. This is what makes further discussion with him on this particular matter quite pointless.

Let me point out the double-standard again in stark relief: if one honestly applies the very same technical analysis to Jesus' statement to the Pharisees etc, it will be clear as day that the statement that they should have tithed mint, anise, cummin does NOT apply to Christians!

Rather, our brother chose to pull the "principle" trick. But of course, he does not see "principle" in the statement to the youth!

Also, our brother's "principle" suddenly converts mint, anise, cummin into money, cash, currency! Not only that, it also converts it to monthly payment of monetary tithes --- to "church" or maybe to pastor!

The "principle" does not include the "tithe" that the Bible clearly says should be given to widows, orphans and strangers. It does not also compare that to Jesus' direction that as long as we give to such people, we give to Him. "Principle" is nowhere to be found in respect of that of course!

1. Query the bible not me. I quoted the passage where it was said that the law was ordained to life.
2. Christ is the resurrection and the life but no one had that life because we were sinners. At the moment of accepting Christ, we are imparted with that life.
3. The concordance i used did not give the root word. But hey, i believe my point is okay provided the "eternal" was added to the life.
4. Dont even know which addressed to me, LOL. But i know that i did say we do not get God's approval by what we do but by believing in Jesus.
And i still maintain that stand! The law was ordained to give life but it oft give death.
BUT STILL, Christ could not give Him what we enjoy today.
Christ gave him the law and to test him, Christ told him to sell all he had. That tested his love for God.
And to add,
you said you are coming to flog me. I'm still waiting.

Alwaystrue: 2 Corinthians 2:15-16
15 Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is PERCEIVED DIFFERENTLY by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing
16 To those who are perishing, we are a DREADFUL SMELL OF DEATH AND DOOM. But to those who are being saved, we are a LIFE-GIVING PERFUME. And who is adequate for such a task as this?



Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the SAINTS: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus

I keep correcting you and you are never learning neither are you listening. When you read 'commandment' your mind is FIXED to stipulated rules and so on. Commandment means different things in the new Testament. I DARE YOU TO USE CONCORDANCE.

This is the last time I will respond to you except you quote out of context scripture.

Good day!!!

@Enigma, i owe you no explanation. If God is not exhibiting double standard as shown you in two different verses in Acts, why do you still say i have double standard. Those two instances are way out of the world different. Even the intent and principle are different. Biko, bring something new.