italo:


Dear hypocrite, do you agree or disagree with St. James when he says "man is justified by works?"

It is unfortunate that you have started calling me names. But who am I, if the call Jesus devil what will one expect they call his brother. It is God who condemns and it is He that justifies. You can't condemn he who he has justified, for who can declare it and it cometh to pass without my Father's approval.

italo:


God doesn't sin.

What about you, protestant, do you sin?

How can I sin when am a God?

@jdilight

I rest my case with you.

italo:


Dear hypocrite, do you agree or disagree with St. James when he says "man is justified by works?"

shdemidemi:
@jdilight

I rest my case with you.

shdemidemi:
@jdilight

I rest my case with you.

You welcome. The day I loss my identity as a God I will return to the club. Christianity is the divinity of God in man.

jdilight:


How can I sin when am a God?

So you don't sin.

So Jesus wasn't talking to you when he said "when you pray, say...forgive us our sins?"

Then you're not one of his disciples.

jdilight:


It is unfortunate that you have started calling me names. But who am I, if the call Jesus devil what will one expect they call his brother. It is God who condemns and it is He that justifies. You can't condemn he who he has justified, for who can declare it and it cometh to pass without my Father's approval.

Typical protestant hypocrite dodging the question.

Do you agree or disagree with St. James?

italo:


So you don't sin.

So Jesus wasn't talking to you when he said "when you pray, say...forgive us our sins?"

Then you're not one of his disciples.

He that is born of God does not sin. Bros am born of God I do not sin. Believe it or not, what makes you to sin is not in me. Disciples are in classes, at first he called them servants with time he called them friends but now we are sons, kings, priest and Gods.

italo:


Typical protestant hypocrite dodging the question.

Do you agree or disagree with St. James?

Am not a protestant, am a christian. It is spiritual suicide to study the word of God with the spirit of God. When you study Jame 2, you will come to understand that work is a product of faith. Work is evidence of faith, when you try to separate both you murder them.

It may shock you to know my church. Am not church man am a christian. The Spirit of God is my teacher not my pastor. Paul was happy with a particular church because they always go home to study the word after church rather than swallowing the everything.

Picking a verse of the scripture is dangerous, it has slain many.

Ubenedictus:
I just lost my post that i painstakingly typed on my phone so i'll be straight to the point.

This is an interesting calvinism.
amen!

amen,
i always enjoyed the word "we are saved by grace thru faith and not by our works that anyman should boast", i think it should be the bedrock of any salvation theology.



this is usually where i have a different thought, we are saved by grace thru faith, but we are also saved FOR work, and God planned that we do works for the begining, i hate to put it this way, but the scriptures seems to say we were saved so that we will neccessarily do work, it was one of the reasons we were created!...

I love the parallel you drew with the "tree and fruit", it made me remember the parable of the vine in d gospel of john, i believe u remember it, "I am the vine you are the branches,... he who is in me and I in him bears fruit in plenty,... cut off from me you can do nothing", i believe that is a good example of our christian lives, we have been added (grafted) to the vine when we became regenerated, born anew, born from above, born again AND we were created TO bear bear fruits, infact the reason we are tended and pruned and manured and fertilized was to make us be fruitful. Actually if we bear not fruits we will be cut off and used for firewood.

You are right that the tree makes the fruits, the fruits also ensure that the branch is still hanging on the vine.

the goodworks ensure we continue to have a life in christ, 'cos the barren tree is burnt down, the barren branch is cut down and the sour vineyard is distroyed.

And i am not making that stuff up




i belive i understand what you mean to say, holiness isn't some stuff we earn by our power or good intention, it is a freegift of God given to us when we were reborn and nurtured in us by the holyspirit. Holiness isn't the stuff we do, it is the superabundant righteousness of Jesus himself gratuitiously given to us by God and paid for on calvary.

I also believe it is not a white invisible lump we carry around like a baggage, it is actually given to us in our innermost being, in our "soul" if you like, i believe God has given it to us even as he pour out his love on us thru the holyspirit (rm . This gift isn't just there, it is proactive, affect our decisions and actions, working in us, even to work, to do and to accomplish. It is mainly in this sense that we are called "holy, saints and righteous", but there is something missing in your post, we actually must accept this gift and work with it...we must be docile to the work of the holyspirit, we must bring this gift out and manifest it. The epistle of John also say he who does righteous things is rightous and i believe that is where the "holiness pastors" score a point.


What use is a gift that isn't put in use, if i was given some good stuff and i keep in locked in a box then it is no use to me. The holiness pastor atleast make an attempt (though they teach it wrongly) to actually ask that we use the good stuff. You on the other hand know about this gift but you are hardly inspiring people to make use of it.


Sorry but i think both theology is deficient, his will make people try to do good thing by their own will, and yours will make people think it is allright whether or not they actually let this gift shine.


Have a nice day.

Obviously u didnt follow all the subsequent post, if u did u will not say this. And also are u familiar with my thread on NL, then u will understand better rather than drawing inference on what u dont understand.

Anyways stay blessed n remain rapturable

PastorOluT:


Obviously u didnt follow all the subsequent post, if u did u will not say this. And also are u familiar with my thread on NL, then u will understand better rather than drawing inference on what u dont understand.

Anyways stay blessed n remain rapturable

actually after replying your op, i read up all the following posts and arguement, i decided not to put myself in the long and unending arguement, it suffice to show the flaw in your op.

If you are clamping down on holiness pastors for teaching a deficient gospel on grace then i believe it is important that you present a total teaching.

jnrbayano:

My brother I left you to what you think you know because you don't seem to agree with scripture and if I decide to push it further we will definitely derail the thread.

P.S something for you to ruminate on.. bless
1 cor 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

shdemidemi:


My brother I left you to what you think you know because you don't seem to agree with scripture and if I decide to push it further we will definitely derail the thread.

P.S something for you to ruminate on.. bless
1 cor 15
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

I don't think it's me the above is for...

Kindly recheck.

jnrbayano:


I don't think it's me the above is for...

Kindly recheck.

You are right, it was meant for @jdilight...

complete mix up.. I apologize sir.

shdemidemi:


You are right, it was meant for @jdilight...

complete mix up.. I apologize sir.

The bold is not necessary dear. Use "bro" or any other address next time.

Noted^^^^^

jdilight:


Am not a protestant, am a christian. It is spiritual suicide to study the word of God with the spirit of God. When you study Jame 2, you will come to understand that work is a product of faith. Work is evidence of faith, when you try to separate both you murder them.

It may shock you to know my church. Am not church man am a christian. The Spirit of God is my teacher not my pastor. Paul was happy with a particular church because they always go home to study the word after church rather than swallowing the everything.

Picking a verse of the scripture is dangerous, it has slain many.

So you disagree with James 2:24?

jdilight:

He that is born of God does not sin. Bros am born of God I do not sin. Believe it or not, what makes you to sin is not in me. Disciples are in classes, at first he called them servants with time he called them friends but now we are sons, kings, priest and Gods.

14 - For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 - For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do.

16 - If then I do that which I will not, I consent to the law, that it is good.

17 - Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 - For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not.

19 - For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do.

20 - Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 - I find then a law, that when I have a will to do good, evil is present with me.

22 - For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man:

23 - But I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members.

24 - Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul sinned. You are in a higher class than Paul?

italo:

14 - For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 - For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do.

16 - If then I do that which I will not, I consent to the law, that it is good.

17 - Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 - For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not.

19 - For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do.

20 - Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 - I find then a law, that when I have a will to do good, evil is present with me.

22 - For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man:

23 - But I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members.

24 - Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Paul sinned. You are in a higher class than Paul?

When Paul had the above experience he was still a babe in the lord as many are today. Now open the same Romans 7 but lets go to the last verse that you omitted.

:25 I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

At this point in Paul's walk with God, he discovered the secret of how to conquer sin. We conquer sin with our mind. I remember one of those days after reading the " be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect". I was so confused that I said, "Lord it is impossible for a man to be perfect". To mine shock, I heard "its in your mind". What was in mine mind, sin. The law of the flesh was in mine mind. To overcome sin, I had to substitute that law with the law of the Spirit of God.

Now go to Romans 8:1-16, Paul narrated how he conquered sin. He did it through the spirit of God. I wrote what is means to be born again in this forum. If you have read it, you would have seen how the spirit of God transform us to overcome sin.

Paul wrote, "be ye transform by the renewal of your mind". He transformed himself by renewing his mind. By living according to the spirit (Romans 8:5).

Until you are lead by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14) your not a son of God, therefore can not overcome sin. The best of Christianity you will have will be of claims.

Many of us think all we do is as a result of what we want to do. No, all we do is a product of all that we have learnt. what we do are fruit of the information we have gathered over the years. Until we change those information, we can not change the fruit we bear.

italo:


So you disagree with James 2:24?

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

This means neither works nor faith can justify a man without the other. We need both to be justified, that is while I told you earlier that work is evidence or proof of our faith.

James 2:24 ....and not by faith ONLY. Faith is the foundation of works. Last night I was studying Galatians. Paul maintained that we are justified by faith. Now are they contradictory? No. But complimentary.

jdilight:


James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

This means neither works nor faith can justify a man without the other. We need both to be justified, that is while I told you earlier that work is evidence or proof of our faith.

James 2:24 ....and not by faith ONLY. Faith is the foundation of works. Last night I was studying Galatians. Paul maintained that we are justified by faith. Now are they contradictory? No. But complimentary.

Good.

Tell that to your fellow protestants who say that faith alone will lead to salvation.

jdilight:


When Paul had the above experience he was still a babe in the lord as many are today. Now open the same Romans 7 but lets go to the last verse that you omitted.

:25 I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

At this point in Paul's walk with God, he discovered the secret of how to conquer sin. We conquer sin with our mind. I remember one of those days after reading the " be ye perfect even as your father in heaven is perfect". I was so confused that I said, "Lord it is impossible for a man to be perfect". To mine shock, I heard "its in your mind". What was in mine mind, sin. The law of the flesh was in mine mind. To overcome sin, I had to substitute that law with the law of the Spirit of God.

Now go to Romans 8:1-16, Paul narrated how he conquered sin. He did it through the spirit of God. I wrote what is means to be born again in this forum. If you have read it, you would have seen how the spirit of God transform us to overcome sin.

Paul wrote, "be ye transform by the renewal of your mind". He transformed himself by renewing his mind. By living according to the spirit (Romans 8:5).

Until you are lead by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14) your not a son of God, therefore can not overcome sin. The best of Christianity you will have will be of claims.

Many of us think all we do is as a result of what we want to do. No, all we do is a product of all that we have learnt. what we do are fruit of the information we have gathered over the years. Until we change those information, we can not change the fruit we bear.

You say Paul was a babe, that's why he was sinning then.

So he wasn't born of God then?

So Paul wasn't led by the Spirit then?

Paul was writing the word of God, yet he wasn't led by the Spirit of God?

You heretical protestants are a confused lot.

italo:


You say Paul was a babe, that's why he was sinning then.

So he wasn't born of God then?

So Paul wasn't led by the Spirit then?

Paul was writing the word of God, yet he wasn't led by the Spirit of God?

You heretical protestants are a confused lot.

The Spirit Of God is needed to understand the bible, it doesn't matter if you go to church. So you think Paul was writing to this people when at the time he was passing through this experience? It was after he has over came.

That is the reason of Romans 7:25. He now thank God who made him to overcome.

italo:


Good.

Tell that to your fellow protestants who say that faith alone will lead to salvation.

Faith is the foundation of Christainity. Without faith, all the works are rubbish. Faith that cannot be proved by work is dead also.

God said to Abraham leave your fathers house to a land I will show you. He believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness, But what was the proof of his faith. He left his fathers land to a land he was not told of until he was on his way.

Let assume Abraham had said Lord I believe but remained in his father land, what will be the proof of his faith.

jdilight:


Faith is the foundation of Christainity. Without faith, all the works are rubbish. Faith that cannot be proved by work is dead also.

God said to Abraham leave your fathers house to a land I will show you. He believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness, But what was the proof of his faith. He left his fathers land to a land he was not told of until he was on his way.

Let assume Abraham had said Lord I believe but remained in his father land, what will be the proof of his faith.

Why are you telling me what I already know?

Tell your fellow protestants who are arrogantly ignorant.

jdilight:

The Spirit Of God is needed to understand the bible, it doesn't matter if you go to church. So you think Paul was writing to this people when at the time he was passing through this experience? It was after he has over came.
That is the reason of Romans 7:25. He now thank God who made him to overcome.

That is a big lie.

Paul was writing in present tense. He never used past tense in that passage.

At the time Paul was writing, he was sinning.


14 - For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 - For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do.

16 - If then I do that which I will not, I consent to the law, that it is good.

17 - Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 - For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not.

19 - For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do.

20 - Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 - I find then a law, that when I have a will to do good, evil is present with me.

22 - For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man:

23 - But I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members.

24 - Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

italo:


That is a big lie.

Paul was writing in present tense. He never used past tense in that passage.

At the time Paul was writing, he was sinning.


14 - For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 - For that which I work, I understand not. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do.

16 - If then I do that which I will not, I consent to the law, that it is good.

17 - Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 - For I know that there dwelleth not in me, that is to say, in my flesh, that which is good. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not.

19 - For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do.

20 - Now if I do that which I will not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 - I find then a law, that when I have a will to do good, evil is present with me.

22 - For I am delighted with the law of God, according to the inward man:

23 - But I see another law in my members, fighting against the law of my mind, and captivating me in the law of sin, that is in my members.

24 - Unhappy man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

this is interesting, he did write in the present tense

Ubenedictus:
actually after replying your op, i read up all the following posts and arguement, i decided not to put myself in the long and unending arguement, it suffice to show the flaw in your op.

If you are clamping down on holiness pastors for teaching a deficient gospel on grace then i believe it is important that you present a total teaching.

So u see the op as clamping down on holiness?

I have two questions for u maybe it will give us both n others having iissues with the op a better understanding.

What do u understand by holiness?

and ow do u explaing this scriptural verse Colosian 2:20-23

no church teach complete righteousness

Yahwin:
no church teach complete righteousness

I wouldnt use the word complete bt wrongly taught, which is the reason after years of teaching it many still couldnt live triumphantly Christian life.

Using ur word, ow do u think it could be taught?

PastorOluT:


So u see the op as clamping down on holiness?

I have two questions for u maybe it will give us both n others having iissues with the op a better understanding.

What do u understand by holiness?

and ow do u explaing this scriptural verse Colosian 2:20-23

u are certainly against the holiness pastors.

You need to tell us the right teaching.

PastorOluT:


I wouldnt use the word complete bt wrongly taught, which is the reason after years of teaching it many still couldnt live triumphantly Christian life.

Using ur word, ow do u think it could be taught?

Op I appreciate your quoting Colossians 2:20-23. But also note Colossians 3:1-9,25
1 If then you have been raised with Christ [to a new life, thus sharing His resurrection from the dead], aim at and seek the [rich, eternal treasures] that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

2 And set your minds and keep them set on what is above (the higher things), not on the things that are on the earth.

3 For [as far as this world is concerned] you have died, and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, Who is our life, appears, then you also will appear with Him in [the splendor of His] glory.

5 So kill (deaden, [a]deprive of power) the evil desire lurking in your members [those animal impulses and all that is earthly in you that is employed in sin]: sexual vice, impurity, sensual appetites, unholy desires, and all greed and covetousness, for that is idolatry (the deifying of self and other created things instead of God).

6 It is on account of these [very sins] that the [holy] anger of God is ever coming upon the sons of disobedience (those who are obstinately opposed to the divine will),

7 Among whom you also once walked, when you were living in and addicted to [such practices].
8 But now put away and rid yourselves [completely] of all these things: anger, rage, bad feeling toward others, curses and slander, and foulmouthed abuse and shameful utterances from your lips!


25 For he who deals wrongfully will [reap the fruit of his folly and] be punished for his wrongdoing. And [with God] there is no partiality [no matter what a person’s position may be, whether he is the slave or the master].

I selected these verses, however the entire chapter describes life in Christ through the power of the Spirit. Verse 6 shows that we cannot do such things and think we will be exempted; their presence in our lives places a question mark on our claims of faith.