Alleged Satanic Verses - Islam for Muslims (6) - Nairaland
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| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by sleek29(m): 8:51am On Sep 01, 2009 |
@olabowale, training is needed for you to perform well in any future task, see it as a form of training for him to go into the wilderness and fast for 40 days and forty nights for him to be fully fit to carry out his tasks and read the verse well. sleek29: The Spirit(Spirit of God), led the Son of Man into the wilderness reading romans 1:3 Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our lord, who was born of the seed of david according to the flesh 4 And declared to be the the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead there are 3 different personalities Jesus has, son of man(flesh), Son of God(romans 8:14, For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God), and God(John 1:1, and 14 and the word became flesh and also John 10:30 My Father and I are one, the last one clearly depicts that Jesus had complete synergy with God, he didn't do anything except God did it, the flesh could do nothing without the Spirit. consider a possessed man who acts in an unusual way, we always say that he isn't in control of himself as the entity within him controls him. Now Jesus the son of man had the Spirit of God living inside of him controlling his every actions, his mind is the Logos of God, his flesh is controlled by God's Spirit just as a man who reads the book so called the seven books of moses reads the contents and an unknown entity enters into him, it is from the mind that the spirit is polluted or blessed, if you want to have God's Spirit dwell in you then you read His word. Understand the person of Jesus before jumping into conclusions, he was a man(flesh), Son of God(Spirit), and word of God which is God (mind) |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 11:02am On Sep 01, 2009 |
@ olabowale, Possessed: to be controlled by an evil spirit <as mohammed was possessed> Temptation: to attract somebody to do what the person know is wrong <ac Jesus was tempted> The devil overshadowed mohammed and was controlling him, that was why he uttered the satanic verses. In the case of Jesus, the devil was attracting him to disobey God, which He did not do. Enough of these mind games, stop comforting yourself for following a fake prophet and repent, come to Jesus to give you the rest you so much need and the water of life. |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 2:17pm On Sep 01, 2009 |
Important Note: I don't welcome anyone derailing this thread. I purposely initiated it to publicly debunk and refute non-Muslims', Nezan's, in particular always claim of "Satanic" verses in the guarded Qur'an. I so consistently challenged him to open a fresh thread but refused to before I then decided to open this. And thanks to the Lord of the universe I have so far achieved that, for non among them can come up with anything to establish that earlier false claim. They hurriedly went from this site to that looking for any peck of "evidence" to do that but. . . Hope fair-minded readers have already fathomed that. You can as well start another fresh one concerning the originality or otherwise of the prophet Muhammad, may Allah exalt his mention. We'll engage you there. Understand? Thanks |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 1:02pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
@muhsin, what have you proved when you fail to explain to us the reason for the declaration of fatwa on salman rushdie throughout the islamic world and the burning of his novel with the title of satanic verses?   |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 2:21pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
I am 100% positive many non participant readers of this OP will laugh at your preponderance naivety and conspicuous cowardice evasive action towards answering those 5 questions. And yet claiming I prove nothing? And regarding Rushcie, we’ve said a lot so far. I, as an independent soul, have, in whatsoever way, no any justifiable reason to back someone else’s action and inaction. He’s human and so am I. Further still, I made it crystally clear I strongly disapproved of his deeds—to even extent I remorselessly call him names. What on God’s earth do you expect me to do again? NO "SATANIC VERSES IN THE GUARDED QUR'AN! |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 3:22pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
@olabowale, the comparison is not accurate. See the scenerio unfolding ,,,,,,, |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 3:25pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
Questions for you, folks, for I am grudgingly leaving: |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 3:27pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
1. Have you read "Satanic Verses"--the novel and the alleged verses as well as their content? yes, I have |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 3:32pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
2. If so, can you tell me where did Salman Rushdie say that his book, which he claims to be a work of fiction, a novel, was an intepretation of the beliefs of Muhammad (SAW)? Or where the content make things with the verses? I believe you people should answer this, since you declared a fatwa on him and ordered all his books to be burnt. |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 3:36pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
3. Why do you insist that Rushdie's book is an interpretation of Muhammad's (SAW) beliefs - a claim that not even Rushdie makes. Or in the Qur'an? my friend, al-Tabari and bin-sa'd wrote about the satanic verses in their hadeeths, Salman Rushdie was never the originator of the 'satanic verses' saga. I only wonder why you people declared a fatwa on him for revisiting the saga. |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 3:39pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
4. If I wrote a FICTIONAL story book about a guy having a perverted dreams and weaved bits of Jesus' (peace be upon him) life into it and portrayed him to be a sick pedophile - would you believe it to be to be an accurate description of Christ's beliefs, especially as I am not a Christian? Salman Rushdie was a muslim. Are you saying al-Tabari and bin-Sa'd's hadeeths were fiction?, BTW, their were islamic scholars. |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 3:45pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
5. Who would you say was more accurate about Muhammad's beliefs - the Quran written 1400 years ago or Salman Rushdie? Or some untrusted scholars? Or the one who made it clear he wrote down what he heard faithfully? muslims believe in the koran and hadeeths, who told you Salman rushdie originated the story about satanic verses? your hadeeths man, Tabari and Sa'd's hadeeths, both islamic scholars originated the satanic verses. it is your problem trying to accuse Salman. was that why you people decared a fatwa on him? |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 3:48pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
@muhsin, here is a summary of the chain of events . . . . . . . . . . . . 1. Islamic writers al-Tabari and ibn-Sa'd wrote about satanic verses in their hadeeths. 2. muslims later discredit al-Tabari and ibn-Sa'd's hadeeths for recording the saga of the satanic verses. 3. many years after, an islamic writer produces a fictional novel with the title 'satanic verses'. 4. a muslim supreme ruler in Iran declares a fatwa for revisiting the satanic verses saga and ordered copies of the book to be burnt. 5. islamic countries rose against the author and the fatwa is validated in all islamic countries and copies of the book burnt in all islamic countries and the author seeks and get assylum in a foreign non-islamic country. Conclusion: muslims are ashamed of the satanic verses saga and want it to be covered up. Shikena! |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 4:06pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
You finished? Good.  First of all, who told you At-Tabari and Ibn Sa'ad reportted the groundless story as hadeeth? This claim alone render your whole argument regarding the "Satanic" verses invalid! Any way, educate me and other Muslims on this board and give us the hadeeth? Wallahi I stand to recant/concede if you do that--adding the hadeeth is authentic. Awaiting your reply, Muhsin |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 4:30pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
[size=16pt]Sources of the Missionary argument[/size]Why do you want to be repeatitive? go through the opening arguments and see, as you rightly acknowledged in your post quoted above . . . . . . duh . . . . |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 4:48pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
Nezan: Did I mention hadeeth, the word hadeeth there? I only say these scholars reported it; and so you too say severally. Nezan: And I plainly challenge you to show us the hadeeth. Period. |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 5:07pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
According to Ibn Ishaq From Ibn Ishaq's book "The Life of Muhammad". Ibn Ishaq is the earliest known Islamic Historian. Now the apostle was anxious for the welfare of his people, wishing to attract them as far as he could. It has been mentioned that he longed for a way to attract them, and the method he adopted is what Ibn Hamid told me that Salama said M. b. Ishaq told him from Yazid b. Ziyad of Medina from M. b. Ka'b al-Qurazi: When the apostle saw that his people turned their backs on him and he was pained by their estrangement from what he brought them from God he longed that there should come to him from God a message that would reconcile his people to him. Because of his love for his people and his anxiety over them it would delight him if the obstacle that made his task so difficult could be removed; so that he meditated on the project and longed for it and it was dear to him. Then God sent down 'By the star when it sets your comrade errs not and is not deceived, he speaks not from his own desire,' and when he reached His words 'Have you thought of al-Lat and al-'Uzza and Manat the third, the other', Satan, when he was meditating upon it, and desiring to bring it. Ishaq:165 |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 5:08pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
(sc. reconciliation) to his people, put upon his tongue 'these are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved.' When Quraysh heard that, they were delighted and greatly pleased at the way in which he spoke of their gods and they listened to him; while the believers were holding that what their prophet brought them from their Lord was true, not suspecting a mistake or a vain desire or a slip, and when he reached the prostration 3 and the end of the Sura in which he prostrated himself the Muslims prostrated themselves when their prophet prostrated confirming what he brought and obeying his command, and the polytheists of Quraysh and others who were in the mosque prostrated when they heard the mention of their gods, so that everyone in the mosque believer and unbeliever prostrated, except al-Walid b. al-Mughira who was an old man who could not do so, so he took a handful of dirt from the valley and bent over it. Then the people dispersed and Quraysh went out, delighted at what had been said about their gods, saying, 'Muhammad has spoken of our gods in splendid fashion. He alleged in what he read that they are the exalted Gharaniq whose intercession is approved.' The news reached the prophet's companions who were in Abyssinia, it being reported that Quraysh had accepted Islam, so some men started to return while others remained behind. Then Gabriel came to the apostle and said, 'What have you done, Muhammad? You have read to these people something I did not bring you from God and you have said what He did not say to you. The apostle was bitterly grieved and was greatly in fear of God. So God sent down (a revelation), for He was merciful to him, comforting him and making light of the affair and telling him that every prophet and apostle before him desired as he desired and wanted what he wanted and Satan interjected something into his desires as he had on his tongue. So God annulled what Satan had suggested and God established His verses i.e. you are just like the prophets and apostles. Then God sent down: 'We have not sent a prophet or apostle before you but when he longed Satan cast suggestions into his longing. But God will annul what Satan has suggested. Then God will establish his verses, God being knowing and wise.' Thus God relieved his prophet's grief, and made him feel safe from his fears and annulled what Satan had suggested in the words used above about their gods by his revelation 'Are yours the males and His the females? That were indeed an unfair division' (i.e. most unjust); 'they are nothing but names which your fathers gave them as far as the words 'to whom he pleases and accepts', i.e. how can the intercession of their gods avail with Him? Ishaq:166 |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 5:11pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
According to Al-Tabari Al-Tabari was an early and prolific Islamic Historian who also recorded the Satanic verses incident. Ibn Humayd—Salamah--Muhammad b. Ishaq—Yazid b. Ziyad al-Madani—Muhammad b. Kali al-Qurazi: When the Messenger of God saw how his tribe turned their backs on him and was grieved to see them shunning the message he had brought to them from God, he longed in his soul that something would come to him from God which would reconcile him with his tribe. With his love for his tribe and his eagerness for their welfare it would have delighted him if some of the difficulties which they made for him could have been smoothed out, and he debated with himself and fervently desired such an outcome. Then God revealed: By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived; nor does he speak out of (his own) desire , . and when he came to the words: Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-'Uzza and Manat, the third, the other? Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words: These are the high-flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval. When Quraysh heard this, they rejoiced and were happy and delighted at the way in which he spoke of their gods, and they lis?tened to him, while the Muslims, having complete trust in their Prophet in respect of the messages which he brought from God, did not suspect him of error, illusion, or mistake. When he came to the prostration, having completed the surah, he prostrated himself and the Muslims did likewise, following their Prophet, trusting in the message which he had brought and following his example. Al-Tabari VI:108 |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 5:12pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
Mohammed's Excuse for Saying the Satanic Verses In the following verses Mohammed, in order to save his reputation as a prophet, explains that Allah allows Satan to tempt all prophets with demonic verses so as to test weak believers. Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom: That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth): Qur'an 22:52-53 |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 5:13pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
Let me cut you off; I mean hadeeth, and not history (book)! These are two different things. Understand? Any way, you can go on. Will refute it, inshaAllah, now. And remember to provide the link where you copy these words from.  |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 5:15pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
whether hadiths or history, were their not islamic writers? |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 5:25pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
Nezan: They are. Not even were. Now, accept one thing, i.e. you fail to produce a single hadeeth as you claimed there was. Do it. |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 5:41pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
The Qur’an and Bukhari Hadiths Bukhari died around 870 A.D. (even later than three of the four sources listed.) Bukhari vol.6:385 (p.363) says that when Mohammed spoke the Star Sura, pagans as well as Muslims bowed. Abu Dawud vol.1:1401 p.369 says the same. Pagans were not said to bow for any of Mohammed’s other recitations, why would they be so agreeable to this Sura, especially since Bukhari and Abu Dawud do NOT say those pagans ever became Muslims! Also, Sura 22:52 says, "Never did We send An apostle or a prophet Before thee, but, when he Framed a desire, Satan Threw some (vanity) Into his desire: but God Will cancel anything (vain) That Satan throws in, And God will confirm (And establish) His Signs;…" Sura 17:73-75 says, "And their purpose was To tempt thee away From that which We Had revealed unto thee, To substitute in Our name Something quite different: (In that case), behold! They would certainly have Made thee (their) friend! And had We not Given thee strength, Thou wouldst nearly Have inclined to them A little. In that case We should Have made thee taste Double portion (of punishment) In this life, and an equal portion In death: and moreover Thou wouldst have found None to help thee against Us!" Tabari and Ibn Sa’d wrote that Sura 17:73-75 was revealed about the time of the Satanic verses. Muslims even have a special term for the whisperings of Satan, roughly pronounced "wiswas". |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 5:47pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
You won't, I realize, huh? Lets go on: Read what At-Tabari says: Let him who examines this book of mine know that I have relied, as regards everything I mention therein which I stipulate to be described by me, solely upon what has been transmitted to me by way of reports which I cite therein and traditions which I ascribe to their narrators, to the exclusion of what may be apprehended by rational argument or deduced by the human mind, except in very few cases. This is because knowledge of the reports of men of the past and of contemporaneous views of men of the present do not reach the one who has not witnessed them nor lived in their times except through the accounts of reporters and the transmission of transmitters, to the exclusion of rational deduction and mental inference. Hence, if I mention in this book a report about some men of the past, which the reader of listener finds objectionable or worthy of censure because he can see no aspect of truth nor any factual substance therein, let him know that this is not to be attributed to us but to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us. Abu Ja`far Muhammad bin Jarir al-Tabari, Tarikh al-Tabari: Tarikh al-Umam wal-Muluk, 1997, Volume I, Dar al-Kutub al-'Ilmiyyah, Beirut (Lebanon), p 13. This is one. Thus can we say all what he transmitted is genuine and true? Answer me for I am going in a few minutes. Thanks |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 5:50pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
Nezan: And on what page did he say this? Even if he did, other books that surpased his in authenticity say otherwise. Got them with me. Quick. Thanks |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 5:52pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
to those who transmitted it to us and we have merely passed this on as it has been passed on to us.who passed the satanic verses saga to them? was it not acquintances of mohammed? |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by Nezan(m): 5:54pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
You are a funny fellow, the next minute you discredit al-Tabari and the next minute you quote him? funny dude. |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 5:55pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
Nezan: Yeah. If they were, tell us their names. Only names are OK. I know everyone can make a little search. |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 5:57pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
Nezan: Can't you understand simple thing? Sorry if that hurts. Unintended, wallahi. I mean thats what he said in his book. Am not backing my points with his words in whatsoever way. Re-read it justly, fairly. Do that. Thanks |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 6:00pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
Read the alleged verses (the claimed one excluded, though): Verse 11 : The (Prophet's) (mind and) heart in no way falsified that which he saw. verse 19 : Have ye seen Lat. and 'Uzza, Verse 20 : And another, the third (goddess), Manat? Verse 21 : What! for you the male sex, and for Him, the female? Verse 22 : Behold, such would be indeed a division most unfair! Verse 23 : These are nothing but names which ye have devised,- ye and your fathers,- for which Allah has sent down no authority (whatever). They follow nothing but conjecture and what their own souls desire!- Even though there has already come to them Guidance from their Lord! No one in their Right minds is going to bang on about any such ideas after reading this sura, What supports the whole saga even there? |
| Re: Alleged Satanic Verses by muhsin(m): 6:01pm On Sep 02, 2009 |
Tomorrow, inshaAllah. |
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