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Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 10:27am On Jan 22, 2012
1) If you could read , I earlier stated, "I don't deny Cleopatra's Macedonian thieving ancestry" so why are you debating me about her whiteness?

Can you read? You clearly claimed that she had an "African mother" because of some loony Austrian researcher's pseudo-scientific claim about some sort of supposedly racially "mixed" cranial features in photographs of a skull not even proven to be that of one of her family members.

I pointed out that she was depicted as white by the same people that would have actually seen her.

All I did was point out that her mother was African, which is more likely than not, if you knew anything about the Ptolemaic dynasty and ancient Kemet's royal bloodline. I also said that she's an "insignificant" figure in Kemet's history who appeared after the conquest and made no great contributions, and she's not worthy of any discussion.

And what I said was that no, there is no actual evidence that her mother was African, because there is not.

There only exists a mere possibility that her mother was non-Greek, but actually, her mother could still have been yet another Macedonian Greek.

And I explained to you that the promotion of her by the West has to do with her tumultuous life. I didn't say that she made any "contributions" to Egypt or was significant in its real ancient history,

2) Yes, you clearly stated its distinction and minimized its connection to Kemet,

Right!

A thorough study of ANY of the West African cultures/societies/kingdoms reveals a very distinct culture and distinct cultural practices from that of Egypt. Find me even one West African culture which can be shown to be strongly rooted in Egypt and largely culturally Egyptian.

which I proved to be inaccurate due to waves of migration from the Nile valley at different parts of history,

Actually you tried to connect the migration of West Africans from East Africa thousands of years ago when these West African societies did not yet exist to migrations from Egypt, which is senseless. The cultural characteristics of these societies cannot be claimed to be specifically Egyptian derived simply because they were in East Africa so many thousands of years ago. And not surprisingly, any objective study of these cultures and their beliefs reveals that they are very distinct from Egyptian culture and beliefs. Yes there are some similarities, but that does not necessarily, for each case, prove derivation from Egypt.

including most recently in AD times, AFTER THE FALL of Kemet to the Eurasians (which you conveniently seem to disregard) and as late as 650 AD, following the first Islamic invasion.

I did not "disregard" the fall of Egypt to invaders from outside. I am not discussing theories of migrations from Egypt to West Africa in AD times, but rather your suggestion that since West Africans, like all of humanity, were in East Africa many thousands of years ago in B.C. times, that West African cultures and beliefs were Egyptian derived or Egypt based to any significant degree.

3) The similarities are too much to list here, but one example is that some Akan peoples have matrilineal customs,

What is there to suggest that the matrilineal customs among the Akan are directly derived from any Egyptian matrilineal customs? Is there any evidence that there was anything like abusua among Egyptians, for example?

Also, doesn't it seem absurd to you to suggest that there were supposedly "waves" of migration from Egypt from 3000 B.C. (or earlier) to 650 AD or later into West Africa but the only groups of West Africans with a matrilineal rather than patrilineal bias in their culture are so few and far between? The great majority of West Africa has a patrilineal bias.


practice circumcision,

Do you have any idea how great the number of people that practiced circumcision in ancient times was? Does anybody?

Herodotus may have claimed that the Egyptians, "Ethiopians", and Colchians were the only people to have practiced circumcision since the earliest times. But Herodotus didn't know the whole of the ancient world anyway and what he meant by "Ethiopians' is not perfectly unambiguous, but if one interpreted it as not referring specifically to Kushites, but to all very dark brown or "black" non-Egyptian Africans then it should be obvious that non-Egyptian blacks already had a reputation for practicing circumcision since the "earliest times".

This is not a unique cultural feature of the Egyptians by any means and it is not necessarily Egypt derived. The practice of circumcision was widespread throughout Africa and it is just another similarity between non-Egyptian Africans and Egyptians, not any evidence of cultural influence from Egypt to non-Egyptian Africans.

use the leopard skin in the craft,


In places where there are leopards, people sometimes used leopard skin for various purposes, sometimes political or religious. The prestige of this animal in places in Africa was nothing unusual or requiring outside inspiration from another group of Africans. This isn't  really a significant similarity at all.

use the carved headrest,

Carved headrests were found all throughout Africa and are not in any way shape or form evidence of specifically Egyptian influence. Rather, they are just one of several things that show that Egyptian culture had more affinities with many African cultures than with European or Western Asian cultures. To even suggest that something like this is evidence of Egyptian influence shows not only that you have hyperdiffusionist tendencies, but that you're too lazy to read up on the uses and significance of these headrests in each of the different non-Egyptian African cultures in which they appeared. Had you done so, it might have dawned on you that the Egyptian headrests are not the "source" for this object among African cultures, but that the real significance of Egyptians using the carved headrest as non-Egyptian Africans did is that Egyptians cluster in this particular aspect of physical culture with other black Africans, NOT that black Africans necessarily all derive their significant cultural practices (such as this) from Egypt.

This kind of claim in particular is one of the worst kind of these hyperdiffusionist claims - refusing even to dream of acknowledging that the elite or nobles among any other African groups would need to or could use something as necessary as a solid headrest that would preserve elaborate hairstyles while a person slept without there being an influx of (stereotypically) "culturally advanced Egyptians" among that group. A little basic thought would immediately suggest that the many African groups that use carved headrests would mostly have independently arrived at these carved headrests for reasons of inherent similarity between the different groups' peoples or cultures (in this particular aspect) or the similarity of the particular utility of the object in their cultures, NOT because they all copied  another African culture nearby or far away from them. Did the non-Egyptian African alleged "adopters" or "copiers" of the headrest all believe that it offered protection from evil spirits or that it was associated with the sun like the Egyptians did? No, some of them had completely different beliefs, and some of them just used it for practical purposes alone.

Incidentally, the Jama-Coaque people in Ecuador made very similar carved headrests in ancient times. I guess they came from Egypt too, right?  undecided

Yes there was preponderance of carved headrests across Africa, but it's extremely unlikely that this is more due to some widespread Egyptian diffusion than it is due to inherent similarity between cultures in certain aspects.


believe in an incommunicable & all powerful god who manifests through nature

Now this is really the worst example. So many people believed in this kind of concept as to make this an extremely irrelevant example. I won't even condescend to discuss this.

just like the Ancient Kemetians, need more examples?

Don't worry about supplying me with more examples.

The irony here is, I'm almost certain that I know of more Egypt-West Africa similarities or possible links than you, but I'm not interested in mentioning what I do know on this particular thread because I wouldn't want to promote that trend of Egypt obsession/worship that I saw springing up in some of the posts on this thread.

But I also know that these cultures show more distinctness from Egypt than they show similarity to it. Have you ever actually checked out any book on any of the Akan peoples and compared their beliefs and practices with that of Egypt?

In fact, have you ever checked out any book on the Akan cultures at all? Even once? How much of their beliefs are you actually familiar with?

You've only mentioned simple and basic things so far, but you haven't actually done any in-depth analysis of traditional Akan religious beliefs and how they actually compare with those of ancient Egypt. For example, what is sunsum and what is honhom? What is the asamando in the Akan traditional worldview? What is adaduanan and what is its significance?

Before you started talking about this Akan-Egypt connection, were you even remotely familiar with the belief system of the Akan? Without resorting to a frantic internet search, could you give a real detailed account of any part of it? Or did the mere possibility that the Akan peoples had a unique and interesting view of the world independent of what they share or supposedly derived from Egypt completely escape you?

The problem with you Egypt fanatics is that you have such a superficial knowledge of some truly fascinating West African cultures but you want to force West Africans to believe in some significant migration and mass transplant of Egyptians into West Africa when the cultures and the beliefs of different West African groups are quite unique and distinct from Egyptian beliefs.

Akan culture is not Egyptian and the idea that its even an offshoot of Egyptian culture is extremely doubtful. Those kinds of claims are self-hate induced delusion resulting from European colonization.

Yes there are definitely a few very real apparent similarities or outright connections between the Akan and some "near eastern" cultures, as noted by Bowdich, W.T. Balmer, and Joseph J. Williams, but on the whole, the culture is clearly very much West African.

For a pretty strong and silencing criticism of the hyperdiffusionist attempts to place the origin of Akan culture in Egypt or the "near east" - such as Eva Meyerowitz attempted in her work on the Akan - and not in West Africa, you can get this article:

"Ethnohistory and the Akan of Ghana"
Author(s): Jack Goody
Source: Africa: Journal of the International African Institute, Vol. 29, No. 1 (Jan., 1959), pp.67-81
Published by: Cambridge University Press on behalf of the International African Institute
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1157500

Concerning your comments on the "Nubians." First, the word, "Nubian" was invented by modern "Egyptologists" to describe the very stereotypically African features that appear throughout Kemet.  The word, "Nubia" was a geographic term invented by cartographers in the 1500s.  Please show me some evidence where any so-called ancient "Egyptian" distinguished themselves from so-called "Nubians" (and better yet, please find just one instance of the term "Nubian" in any ancient kemetic text).

I am not concerned with the term "Nubians", rather I am concerned with the certain larger group of people who developed the Kerma culture, who formed the kingdom of Kush, and who invaded and thrashed Egypt in the 16th century B.C. (http://wysinger.homestead.com/article10.html), and later conquered it in the 8th century B.C.

The Kushites and the Egyptians shared the same origin in prehistorical times, but they saw each other as different political/social groups. That you think that they were the same or think they thought of themselves as the same isn't going to change anything.

And your asking me to look for "Nubian" in an ancient Egyptian text is laughable. I can't find "Egypt" in any real ancient Egyptian text but I've been using that term throughout this thread. I'm sure you'll object to that next, right? Diversionary arguments. The Egyptians called them Kas/Kush, we call them both Nubia and Kush, and so what? You and me both use the term "African", but how many Africans historically used that word as some sort of larger ethnic or "racial" designation for themselves or other inhabitants of the continent prior to European colonization?

One can call the Israelites "Jews" or "Hebrews", it doesn't matter. Everyone knows you're still referring to a certain group of people. One can call the Phoenicians "Canaanites" (from the land of "Canaan"wink even if neither Canaanites nor Phoenicians was what what they called themselves. One can call all groups who spoke certain languages in a certain area in ancient times "Semitic" even though they never called themselves that nor did anyone else until the 18th century. Labeling a group by a geographical area or a particular aspect associated with them doesn't always matter for the purposes of a discussion. Anybody would know which group of people you are referring to, anyway. As far as I am concerned Nubia is Kush and Kush is Nubia. I don't care about mere demonymic preferences.

If you actually think Kush and Egypt were indistinguishable and not separate (but related), you need to read up on what archaeological excavations of Kushite/Nubian sites have revealed about a distinct and ancient culture at Kerma.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by resw77: 1:49pm On Jan 22, 2012
Again, debating me about Cleopatra's whiteness? I never said she didn't look "white" (whatever that means) and never said she wasn't Macedonian. And furthermore, I don't care. I used a link to an article where archaeologists suggested she had an African mother, in the same manner that they would use had it been a "caucasoid" skull. Since the Ptolemies were desperate to win favor with the Kemetic priesthood, it is highly likely that Cleopatra's mother was African. If not, I could care less (besides, you have 0 evidence to prove otherwise).

You are free to ignore the connections of Nile Valley civilizations to elsewhere in Africa, but there's no way that there can be so many coincidental similarities. Again, you said they were unique, I pointed out important similarities, and you can come up with any excuse you wish for how coincidental the similarities are, but you've been proven wrong as to their uniqueness. Let's not forget which civilization is older, and therefore the likely progenitor.

With regard to "Nubians," I don't expect you, who knows not much about Kemetic history, to quickly grasp this concept. The Egyptologists have really got you confused, and it's sad, First, "Nubia" is not synonymous with "Kush" "Kush" was "KAS" or 'Kash" in Ancient Kemetic texts, and was a specific place along the Nile in present-day Sudan, not the entire area to the south of Kemet (just like "Egypt" or "Hakaptah" is a specific place NOT synonymous with all of Kemet). "Nubia" was in the 1500s AD first made synonymous to the area of desert to the WEST of the Nile. This designated area did not include places like Aswan and former Elephantine that modern Egyptologists now associate with "Nubia."

Please show us just one instance wherein the Kemetic people distinguished themselves from so-called "Kushites". The Buhen stela says "King's Son of Kush, Sety" ! LOL
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Rossikk(m): 4:42pm On Jan 22, 2012
PhysicsMHD said

Right!

A thorough study of ANY of the West African cultures/societies/kingdoms reveals a very distinct culture and distinct cultural practices from that of Egypt. Find me even one West African culture which can be shown to be strongly rooted in Egypt and largely culturally Egyptian.

I'm quite frankly sick of people like you who come here to regurgitate western fantasies borne of their racist agenda. You're just here mouthing rubbish about things you know nothing. Virtually EVERY Ancient Egyptian tradition remains in existence in West and Central Africa till date, indicating 100% cultural continuity between the Nile Valley civilizations and its African offshoots. Go and read Olumide Lucas, and some other modern AFRICAN authors who know Egypt, like Cheikh Anta Diop, instead of wasting your time studying compromised western 'Egyptologists' who are mainly paid-up propagandists there to tell us that Egypt was not African to suit their racial agenda.

Now, even when we clearly see BLACK AFRICANS on the artefacts and so on, YOU still come here to try to tell us that they are 'not really African'. Why don't you take your Uncle Tom self and go on some western forum and try convincing them that the Greeks 'had nothing culturally to do with Europe' and see how they'll respond to you, yet you think you can come here to mouth such ignorant garbage in relation to Africa?

Excerpts from Olumide Lucas' The Religion of the Yorubas showing unmistakeable racial and cultural connections to Egypt.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Rossikk(m): 5:18pm On Jan 22, 2012
PhysicsMHD said:

What is there to suggest that the matrilineal customs among the Akan are directly derived from any Egyptian matrilineal customs? Is there any evidence that there was anything like abusua among Egyptians, for example?

Also, doesn't it seem absurd to you to suggest that there were supposedly "waves" of migration from Egypt from 3000 B.C. (or earlier) to 650 AD or later into West Africa but the only groups of West Africans with a matrilineal rather than patrilineal bias in their culture are so few and far between? The great majority of West Africa has a patrilineal bias.

You're wrong. Fact is that just like in Egypt, most pre-colonial African societies were matrilineal, and matrilineality was ''the dominant mode of social organization in most African societies'':

   
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=rNDwEWf6Z-AC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=ancient+egypt+patrilineal&source=bl&ots=aLjDlDLqdY&sig=rL_nTK_E5hPsC7h-HtAcq35O1nU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ojUcT6PqK47pOYbd5dAI&sqi=2&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=ancient%20egypt%20patrilineal&f=false


Igbos are traditionally matrilineal:


http://domin.dom.edu/facultyseminars/nkuzi/matriarchy.htm


Ijaws are traditionally matrilineal:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Zm7sWUbDWakC&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=igbos+matrilineal&source=bl&ots=rUvo9MR9b_&sig=7DfA3xYJ_py9696EXmIOAsCLnF4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pDgcT9j7OoiL8gPdnN28Cw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=igbos%20matrilineal&f=false

Many of these groups in fact have within them sub groupings which are either patrilineal or matrilineal. Same applied to ancient Egypt were some groups were patrilineal in a sea of matrilineality. Egypt was never uniformly matrilineal.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 11:40pm On Jan 22, 2012
resw,

About Cleopatra? Did I ever write that you "cared" much what she was? I was just pointing out why she was promoted and countering all that crap about a so called mixed racial skull type.

I don't care about Cleopatra either, but I don't need to allege a media conspiracy when I see her portrayed as an oyibo or when I see her promoted at all (given her tumultuous life). I watched a discovery channel program on Egypt a few years back where they had a black man  (probably African American) portraying Akhenaten for the purposes of their historical reconstructions and dramatizations. And that documentary was also written, directed and produced by oyibos.

You are free to ignore the connections of Nile Valley civilizations to elsewhere in Africa, but there's no way that there can be so many coincidental similarities. Again, you said they were unique, I pointed out important similarities, and you can come up with any excuse you wish for how coincidental the similarities are, but you've been proven wrong as to their uniqueness. Let's not forget which civilization is older, and therefore the likely progenitor.

How have I been proven wrong with respect to their "uniqueness"?

1. You mentioned matrilineal customs, but

a) the Egyptians are nowhere close to being the only group of people that have any matrilineal customs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineal_succession


b) the matrilineal customs of the Akan peoples are distinct from any of the several other (which is why I even asked you if there was anything in Egyptian culture like abusua) groups with their own matrilineal customs, which you can't be silly enough to think are all derived from Egypt.


2. You mentioned circumcision, but there is absolutely nothing to suggest that the Egyptians are the source of the practice of circumcision, and indeed, the same Herodotus some people like to quote does not state, suggest, or insinuate that the practice of circumcision from the "earliest times" is Egyptian in origin, but instead claims that the "Ethiopians" (non-Egyptian blacks) have been practicing it from the earliest times just like the Egyptians. Apart from that, in this instance you produced "0 evidence to prove otherwise."

3. You mentioned leopard skin. Apart from having "0 evidence to prove" that it was Egyptian derived, you conveniently ignored how its use among the Akan did not exactly match its use along the Nile, even though there were strong similarities. There is no reason to assume they could not have arrived at their uses of it independently, given the prestige of that animal in ancient societies where it was found.

4. The carved headrests of Egypt were not identical to all of those in other parts of Africa just like they weren't the same as those in Ecuador. That Egypt does not own the cultural copyright on something as basic and simple as a headrest shouldn't be so hard a concept to grasp.

Also, this headrest thing is really the most absurd thing you've posted so far, but you're probably somebody with no grasp of the level of development of any non-Egyptian African cultures so you probably DO think they couldn't make headrests without lost and confused Egyptians wandering in amongst them (and forgetting to bring their papyrus technology, their clothing, their religion, their symbols, etc., but somehow remembering to bring their "headrest making technology" or "headrest making customs"- lol @ the absurdity of this).

I'm sure that earlier in this thread when pictures of combs were posted by one poster to suggest cultural similarity and affinity, you would instead actually try and suggest that Egyptians dispersed combs to all the poor, style-less, unkempt, helpless non-Egyptian blacks who could never have conceived of combs without contact with stereotypically culturally advanced Egyptian wanderers and refugees.

5. The god claim of yours really was a totally insignificant observation. I have neither the time nor patience to list every single group with a similar belief in that type of god as that might take hours.

And by the way, Egyptian cosmology and religion was very different from that of the Akan peoples, but since you don't know anything about the Akan peoples' religious beliefs and practices, you would try to use the existence of an all powerful god manifesting through nature for comparison as if that were not a widespread concept.




Your similarities were basically worth nil. This is not to say that there aren't some similarities, but for the most part, these really are not them.




With regard to "Nubians," I don't expect you, who knows not much about Kemetic history, to quickly grasp this concept.  The Egyptologists have really got you confused, and it's sad,   First, "Nubia" is not synonymous with "Kush" "Kush" was "KAS" or 'Kash" in Ancient Kemetic texts, and was a specific place along the Nile in present-day Sudan, not the entire area to the south of Kemet (just like "Egypt" or "Hakaptah" is a specific place NOT synonymous with all of Kemet).  "Nubia" was in the 1500s AD first made synonymous to the area of desert to the WEST of the Nile.  This designated area did not include places like Aswan and former Elephantine that modern Egyptologists now associate with "Nubia."

You're not getting it. I've already come across this argument before. Now let's look at this logically

a) Kas/Kash was a rival empire along the Nile in Sudan, and it had a source. The Kerma culture (a Kushite culture) is one of them. This same Kerma culture's capital city, Kerma, was where statues honoring Taharqa (from the 7th century B.C.) were much later erected. These were discovered in 2003. So there is continuity between the extremely ancient city of Kerma (going back much further than 2000 B.C.) and the Kushites who conquered Egypt in the 8th century B.C.

Furthermore, the Kerma archaeological site contains remnants of ancient buildings and features that are distinct from Egyptian culture.

b) Nubian as used in the literature is not referring to a cartographic location, but to the Kushites. It's NOT the case that the literature is explicitly claiming that there was an ancient large "nation-state" called Nubia, and then labeling all its inhabitants Nubians, rather it's the case that the literature is claiming that there were an ancient people (the larger group of Kushites) and labeling all related groups Nubians precisely to avoid confusion between the single kingdom of Kush and the much larger overall group of Kushite people (Nubians) and the kingdoms that the Kushite people later spawned that were distinct from the kingdom of Kush. Calling every kingdom that the Kushite people (Nubians) formed a "Kushite" kingdom before Kush existed or after Kush was long gone would only lead to confusion.

Whether the name Nubia derives from Nuba, Nobatia or the Nobatae, or what have you, the name Nubian is now being used to designate a certain larger group. The word is being used to essentially mean "Kushite" regardless of whether the time period being referred to is one in which Kush is a fully fledged kingdom or is not extant. Get it? It doesn't matter what the "area" called Nubia was claimed to be in shitty 16th century cartography, what actually matters is what the geographical spread of the Kushites was and is and whatever that geographical spread was, that was all of Kushite/Nubian land, so that area will (in modern times, I'm not talking about 1500 AD) be designated ancient Nubia. This isn't too hard to grasp. It's not some sort of conspiracy. It's precisely for the reason you noted (that Kush was a specific kingdom) that the use of the word Nubian becomes virtually unavoidable. For example, Kerma is much older than the Kingdom of Kush, and Makuria is much later, but Kerma, Kush, and Makuria are all part of the Kushite legacy because the same larger group of people are responsible for all of it.

You're getting hung up on terminology. This isn't the first time that a modern label has been retroactively applied to a larger group for purposes of labeling a group.

Egyptologists are not using "Nubian" to designate any really dark looking person depicted in Egyptian art anyhow they want like you might want to think. Kushites and Egyptians had a high level of interaction so the fact that Kushites were often present on Egyptian art is nothing unusual and it doesn't mean that they were really one people and there's a vast conspiracy to call all the medium brown skinned people Egyptians and call all the darker brown skinned people Kushites and separate them into two peoples. They actually were two peoples! 

And I've even read books years ago written by the same Egyptologists you accuse of being at the helm of a massive conspiracy where very dark  looking individuals were still designated as Egyptians (not Nubians or Kushites).


Please show us just one instance wherein the Kemetic people distinguished themselves from so-called "Kushites". The Buhen stela says "King's Son of Kush, Sety" ! LOL

Why would I have to show you anything? I already gave you a link where the Egyptians were actually bitching explicitly about being overrun  by Kush and Kush's allies (such as Punt) and how they barely scraped by due to one leader's heroic counterattack. Read the link I gave you in my last post about the 17th dynasty invasion.

It even confirms that loot from the beatdown they gave Egypt was taken and carted away and buried in Kush:

"The discovery explains why Egyptian treasures, including statues, stelae and an elegant alabaster vessel found in the royal tomb at Kerma, were buried in Kushite tombs: they were war trophies.

Mr Davies said: “That has never been properly explained before. Now it makes sense. It’s the key that unlocks the information. Now we know they were looted trophies, symbols of these kings’ power over the Egyptians. Each of the four main kings of Kush brought back looted treasures.”

The alabaster vessel is contemporary with the latter part of the 17th Dynasty. It bears a funerary text “for the spirit of the Governor, Hereditary Prince of Nekheb, Sobek- nakht”. Now it is clear that it was looted from Sobeknakht’s tomb, or an associated workshop, by the Kushite forces and taken back to Kerma, where it was buried in the precincts of the tomb of the Kushite king who had led or inspired the invasion.

The El Kab tomb was looted long ago, probably in antiquity. There is more to investigate at the enormous site and the Supreme Council of Antiquities in Egypt is now making such work a priority.

Rich pickings from ebony and ivory

Kush was a vast territory spanning modern-day northern Sudan. Ruled by kings who were buried with large quantities of luxury goods, including jewellery and inlaid furniture, it had complex political and religious institutions."



The Kushites were not interested in occupation, so they moved on after invading and didn't keep up a continuous invasion and subjugation of the country.

The sources for history on Kush were written by Egyptians and then Greeks and Romans and were pro-Egypt, which had for years given scholars the misleading impression that Kush was Egypt's weak junior neighbor, until more and more archaeological discoveries showed that this was nonsense.

Like I said before, these were distinct political/social groups. When the Kushites were thrashing the Egyptians during Egypt's 17th dynasty, I don't think the Egyptians forgot that Kush and her allies, like Punt, were distinct, separate groups and their writings confirm this.


As for the Buhen stela, you do realize that Egypt held dominion over Kush at certain periods and appointed a viceroy there, right?


"Hereditary Prince, Count, King's Son of Kush, Overseer of the Gold Lands of Amun, Fan-bearer on the King's right, King's Scribe of the letters of Pharaoh, First chief in the stable, Eyes of the King of Upper Egypt, Ears of the King of Lower Egypt, High-Priest of the Moon-god, Thoth, Overseer of the Treasury, and Overseer of the letter-scribes in the Court of the Palace-of-Ramesses-Miamun, in the Court."

^^^^^

Those are Seti (the viceroy of Kush)'s titles from Abu Simbel. Do you actually read all of the rest of that literally as well? Not all of it can be literal. "King's Son" "Fan bearer on the King's right" "Eyes of the King" etc. cannot possibly be literal. These are all titles which have a certain import to them in the context of their language. How do you read "Eyes of the King" if you think "King's Son" is not an honorary appellation bestowed on him? If you think it's literal then do you actually think Seti was an actual "fanbearer on the King's right" as well?

You seem not to understand why the term would be used, so let me see if I can construct an appropriate analogy to make the way the title (King's Son) is being used in combination with the name of a vassal province of the empire seem more sensible in plain English.

At one point, the sovereigns of the British Empire not only styled themselves the kings and queens of the united kingdom of the petty little countries that are on that island of theirs, but they even had the gall to call themselves "Emperor of India" and "Empress of India". Why? Because  India was historically famous/legendary to Europeans for hundreds of years, and they had conquered all of it, so they incorporated it into their titles out of grandiosity/pomposity.

You get it? Kush was a major rival power previously. That's what archaeology (facts, that is, not my opinion) has revealed. Not an "occasionally rebellious province" of Egypt or a "weak junior neighbor", but a military powerhouse that Egypt kept trying to downplay in their writings when it was strong and kept trying to dominate and keep control of when they could. Please don't forget that the Kushites (Makurians) bitchslapped the invading Muslims in the 600s, scuffed up their turbans, busted up their keffiyehs, and made them agree to a stalemate.

If they did such a thing in the 600s against a military force that was sweeping through Asia virtually undefeated, they could certainly have struck fear into the Egyptians in even earlier times, like that 17th dynasty invasion of theirs did.

When the Egyptians conquered Kush and incorporated it into their larger Egyptian empire, they appointed somebody a viceroy of Kush and his specific honorific showing his overlordship and vicegerency of Kush was the title "King's Son", which, once again, cannot possibly be literal. The pharaoh Siptah was a child king, reigned for 6 years (under the guidance of Queen Twosret who acted as regent), and died at the age of 16. There were other child kings besides him at other times and yet they still went ahead to use the honorific/title "King's Son" to (functionally) mean viceroy regardless of the fact that the reigning pharoah, a child, could not even have had a son.


To give another example of the problem of trying to read certain titles literally in all cultures, there was and is a title in Edo (Benin) called Ologbosere. The title actually was Ologbo Iyasere/Iyase and was contracted to Ologbosere and it means "Iyase's cat" (Ologbo means cat in Yoruba, Edo, and Igbo, which are related languages). The Iyase was an even higher ranking title holder whose position was like that of a prime minister (and originally, a high ranking general as well) in the Benin empire and the title Ologbosere was derived in reference to him. The title Ologbosere indicating that the Ologbosere was the "Iyase's cat" may seem confusing to interpret in a modern context to somebody who is not already enmeshed in the culture, but it made perfect sense in the context of the pre-colonial culture of Benin. But nobody would be silly enough to suggest that it literally meant the Ologbosere of Benin was a cat.

Also take the title of "dauphin" in old France. Was there a dolphin in the court of the French kings? Of course not.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 1:04am On Jan 23, 2012
Rossikk:

PhysicsMHD said

I'm quite frankly sick of people like you who come here to regurgitate western fantasies borne of their racist agenda. You're just here mouthing rubbish about things you know nothing. Virtually EVERY Ancient Egyptian tradition remains in existence in West and Central Africa till date, indicating 100% cultural continuity between the Nile Valley civilizations and its African offshoots. Go and read Olumide Lucas, and some other modern AFRICAN authors who know Egypt, like Cheikh Anta Diop, instead of wasting your time studying compromised western 'Egyptologists' who are mainly paid-up propagandists there to tell us that Egypt was not African to suit their racial agenda.

Now, even when we clearly see BLACK AFRICANS on the artefacts and so on, YOU still come here to try to tell us that they are 'not really African'. Why don't you take your Uncle Tom self and go on some western forum and try convincing them that the Greeks 'had nothing culturally to do with Europe' and see how they'll respond to you, yet you think you can come here to mouth such ignorant garbage in relation to Africa?

Excerpts from Olumide Lucas' The Religion of the Yorubas showing unmistakeable racial and cultural connections to Egypt.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139


1. Where did I say the Egyptians were "not really" African? My point is that the indigenous black African element in their culture was there, but so was an indigenous non-black North African element. They were both there from the earliest times and they originate from the same place (not outside of Africa). Neither was "white", but the notion that Egypt was some entirely "black" country is misleading and a stretch.

http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/holybook/articles/race.html

And would you consider somebody like this (a Copt, Sir Magdi Yacoub), to be "black"?





Of course not. But that kind of phenotype was there along with the ones we would, in modern times, consider "black" since the earliest times. That's all I want to point out. He's definitely not "white" racially, but that kind of look is a legitimate authentic non-Arab, non-Persian, non-foreigner Egyptian look and always has been.

Watch this video (by S.O.Y. Keita) and note on the map (at about the 7:30 mark) where the origin point for the Afroasiatic language group (including those spoken by "non-black" looking North Africans before any Arab influx) in Africa is placed:

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS3yFCoIdXc&feature=player_embedded[/flash]

Those "non-black" looking North Africans, originate from East Africa, and the presence of them in Egypt in ancient times should not be so difficult a concept to grasp. When one counters the claim that the entire country was "black" because the "black looking" element was there as well as the "non-black" looking element, there's nothing "uncle tom"-like about admitting that. Just trying to be "honest" and keep the over claiming in check.

2. Olumide Lucas's argument is hardly all that convincing. Multiple Nigerian groups have claimed at one time or another to have come from Egypt or the Sudan (including my own) and similar arguments about some words are usually constructed, but no really strong evidence of any overall correspondence between the language, its structure and characteristics and most its vocabulary to Afroasiatic languages is actually established. I think you should get in touch with Negro_Ntns on this forum to see if he plans to publish anything on the alleged connection of the Yoruba language to Afroasiatic languages because he seems to be the only one convinced of a Yoruba to Afroasiatic language link. There is really nothing at the present time to prove an Afroasiatic connection.

3. I don't think you, or Lucas, really understand the implications of your own arguments for the cultural subordination of your groups (Yoruba and Igbo) to Egypt, but I'm not going to bother to debate that at this time. You can believe what you want.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Rossikk(m): 2:15am On Jan 23, 2012
1. Where did I say the Egyptians were "not really" African?

You don't have to 'say it'. It screams out through your muffled diatribe.

My point is that the indigenous black African element in their culture was there, but so was an indigenous non-black North African element.

Whatever non black North African element that was there was NEGLIGIBLE - perhaps less than 5% of the population, until the Greek, Roman, and Arab invasions. This is why the Egyptians were UNIFORMLY described as ''black skinned with woolly hair'' by ALL the ancient visitors to the region. This was why Diodorus Sicilus (1st century BC) was told by the people south of the sahara whom he visited, that[i] ''The Egyptians are colonists sent out by us. Their form of writing, their customs, their religion are all Ethiopian''[/i].

THAT'S the history of the place. The western Egyptologists you come here to parrot ALWAYS IGNORE these ancient texts because they relate something totally different from the lies they propagate, with your assistance.

They were both there from the earliest times and they originate from the same place (not outside of Africa). Neither was "white", but the notion that Egypt was some entirely "black" country is misleading and a stretch.

All reliable evidence shows you're talking multi-garbage.


And would you consider somebody like this (a Copt, Sir Magdi Yacoub), to be "black"?

That person does not represent what an ancient Egyptian looked like. He represents what the average Egyptian looked like after the foreign Greek/Roman/Arab invasions which occurred at least a thousand years after the last pyramids were built.

Why is there only ONE race in these depictions if Egypt was this great racial melting pot ''from the earliest times'' as you claim?






Troop of Egyptian Soldiers - From the Asyut tomb of Prince Mesehti - 11th dynasty (Why is there not a single white man among these troops if Egypt was racially mixed from the earliest times?)


Early dynastic rulers:


Senusret I


Huni (Third dynasty)


Amenhemet II



Mentuhotep II

Where are your AUTHENTIC images of white Egyptians prior to the aforementioned foreign invasions?? They simply do not exist. People like Cleopatra and co are not whom we refer to as Ancient Egyptians. Those are people of the much much later Greco-Roman Egypt of the invading Ptolemies.


2. Olumide Lucas's argument is hardly all that convincing. Multiple Nigerian groups have claimed at one time or another to have come from Egypt or the Sudan (including my own) and similar arguments about some words are usually constructed, but no really strong evidence of any overall correspondence between the language, its structure and characteristics and most its vocabulary to Afroasiatic languages is actually established.

You are wilfully blind, deaf and dumb to write this garbage. On the Lucas link I left, there were UNQUESTIONABLE lingustic and cultural connections between Egypt and the Yorubas, which only a CLOWN steeped in western Egyptological subterfuge and distortion, would claim are ''hardly convincing''. as for ''multiple Nigerian groups claiming Egyptian/Nubian descent'', it couldn't possible be because they do indeed have such descent, no? Especially considering the fact that most of them who make those ''claims'' are echoing ORAL TRADITIONS PASSED DOWN BY TRADITIONALISTS who hold no modern racial insecurities that would make them ''claim'' something that didn't happen? Why would traditional griots in Igboland, Yorubaland, Hausaland, Benin etc ALL state that their ancestors migrated 'from the north' in antiquity if that never happened?? Aren't you once again disregarding the testimony of your own people, to mouth the rotten garbage propagated by Europeans?


3. I don't think you, or Lucas, really understand the implications of your own arguments for the cultural subordination of your groups (Yoruba and Igbo) to Egypt, but I'm not going to bother to debate that at this time. You can believe what you want.

Dude, the Egyptians were black Africans. How does stating the fact that a many West Africans are descended from the black Africans who once inhabited Egypt/Nubia/Nile Valley 'subordinate' anyone to anything? It's simply history.

You are the one subordinating yourself to the lies and distortions of western Egyptology. The same racists who made it their duty to go around knocking off the noses on the Sphinx and other artefacts to disguise their negroid character, the same racists who make it their duty to engage in 'restoration' of negroid artefacts in which they superimpose pointy noses and scraped off exteriors to falsely portray same as 'white', are the same people you run to for information on what the ancient Egyptians looked like.

THIS is from the tomb of King Tutunkhamun, depicting what he looked like in real life:



THIS is the image of King Tutunkhamun that Western Egyptologists have presented to the world based on their ''digital reconstruction'':






Two depictions of King Tut: On the left, an ancient artifact showing Black features; on the right, a modernized, Eurocentric model on display, created by forensics experts from France. Photos: Kenneth Muhammad

NUFF SAID
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 2:33am On Jan 23, 2012
Whatever non black North African element that was there was NEGLIGIBLE oerhaps less than 5% of the population, until the Greek, Roman, and Arab invasions. This is why the Egyptians were UNIFORMLY described as ''black skinned with wolly hair'' by ALL the ancient visitors to the region. This was why Diodorus Sicilus (1st century BC) was told by the people south of the sahara whome he visited, that ''The Egyptians are colonists sent out by us. Their form of writing, their customs, their religion are all Ethiopian''

THAT'S the history of the place. The western Egyptologists you come here to parrot ALWAYS IGNORE these ancient texts because they relate something totally differebt from the lies they propagate, with your assistance.

Look, Rossike, I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this, because we're just not going to agree. I know what I've seen in lots of books, not just stuff you can find on the internet, and that's why I am arguing (honestly) for the position I'm taking about the "non-black" looking elements being indigenous to Africa (not Eurasia), but also being there in Egypt in ancient times. I do not have the time to dig up all the books I read and looked at years ago in libraries when these  kind of questions were on my mind, as I really have more important things to do. But you're really misinterpreting my motivation in trying to counter the kind of stuff I'm reading.

By the way what you posted above (by Diodorus) is the one thing we can actually agree on. I have always held that the Kushites developed first, moved northwards and brought their culture to the more northern groups, and I think further archaeology will bear this out. If you're familiar with Bruce Williams' work (one of the dreaded "Western Egyptologists"wink on Kush, you'd understand where I'm going with this.


As for the supposed Afroasiatic or Egyptian character of the Yoruba language, I'm really not going to get into a debate on this, considering that it's not my language, but I'd prefer if it you could provide a very full analysis of the connections, not just some words. People can claim or stretch anything.

As for migrating from East to West, and that being reflected in traditions, there's nothing surprising about that, but East does not necessarily mean Egypt.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 2:38am On Jan 23, 2012
Rossike, don't present my views as something that they aren't. The National Geographic "reconstruction" of King Tut was bullshit and I never claimed that they had any justification for the image they produced or that I agreed with it.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Rossikk(m): 2:42am On Jan 23, 2012
As for the supposed Afroasiatic or Egyptian character of the Yoruba language, I'm really not going to get into a debate into this, considering that it's not my language, but I'd prefer if it you could provide a very full analysis of the connections, not just some words. People can claim or stretch anything.

Do the research yourself. It's no one's job to educate you. Go to Amazon.com and buy Lucas' The History of the Yorubas, AS WELL AS Cheikh Anta Diop's The African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality for starters.

Alternatively, you can keep poring over the same old white Eurocentric trash.


As for migrating from East to West, and that being reflected in traditions, there's nothing surprising about that, but East does not necessarily mean Egypt.

The traditions I've heard speak of migration FROM THE NORTH, not from the East, although some groups may have moved in from the east on their journey from the north during the dispersions caused by foreign invasions of the Nile Valley.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 2:45am On Jan 23, 2012
I've already read Diop. And much more besides that. I can see that we're just not going to agree, so I don't plan on stretching this discussion out much longer.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 2:47am On Jan 23, 2012
The traditions I've heard speak of migration FROM THE NORTH, not from the East, although some groups may have moved in from the east on their journey from the north during the dispersions caused by foreign invasions of the Nile Valley.

Northeast can be remembered as north or east, no big deal.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Rossikk(m): 2:49am On Jan 23, 2012
Read Lucas as well!!! And also read The Destruction of Black Civilization by Dr Chancellor Williams. Throw away the white man penned, Eurocentric garbage. If National Geographic, the very mouthpiece of 'respectable' western scholarly research, could go all the way to falsifying King Tut's image to make him appear ''mixed'', why would you lend credence to ANYTHING coming out of western Egyptology?
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Rossikk(m): 2:53am On Jan 23, 2012
Oh, and you never answered the question why there wasn't a single white or ''mixed'' person among those Egyptian troops I posted.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 3:17am On Jan 23, 2012
Rossike, you posted images of the Medjay warriors (http://wysinger.homestead.com/nubianarchers.html). Of course they aren't going to look anything other than black.

Like I said, earlier, I know what I've seen, and that I don't have the books on me and don't have time to track down all that I've seen years back doesn't mean I'm countering what you're arguing in order to pursue a certain agenda.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by resw77: 7:27am On Jan 23, 2012
LOL @ PhysicsQED, you have trouble differentiating between facts and theories.


1-5) you've been proven wrong because you said West African cultures were unique and not connected to Nile Valley customs, and I drew several similarities, which you've chosen to dismiss. To think they're coincidental is your opinion, which we all know is worth nothing.

With regard to "Nubia," I "get it" very well, because I've taken the time to read first hand accounts from ancient Kemetic leaders. Since you cannot find any evidence to suggest that Kemet distinguished itself from "Kushites", please show us just one example where "Kush" was called a rival nation? Prove your point. I can point you to specific quotes by leaders such as Merenptah (hint) that disprove your claims.

You don't know what you're talking about.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 8:16am On Jan 23, 2012
resw77,

I don't need to prove that West African cultures are unique and not connected to Nile Valley customs to somebody who doesn't know anything about them. On the contrary, you would need to prove that West African cultures are truly derived from Nile Valley cultures, which you would be incapable of doing as you know almost nil about those West African cultures. By your silence you admitted that you had read basically nothing in depth about the very culture (the Akan culture) you tried to use for your example.


As for "Kush", as explained before, "King's Son of Kush" has no more significance than "Prince of Wales" or "Empress of India" being used by some high ranking nobility who is not in any way a Welshman or an Indian. It should be pretty obvious what the meaning of "King's Son of Kush" is unless one is desperately grasping for straws.  Next I'll hear from you that the Welsh are really of the same ethnicity as the English, that there were never Welsh kingdoms, and that they were historically indistinguishable from the English because the next Englishman in line to the British throne decides to style himself "Prince of Wales".


As for your allusion to the Ramesside inscriptions. I don't care about a Kushite rebellion after Kush was already a vassal of Egypt. That is totally irrelevant to your claim that the Kushites weren't originally a distinct group and polity. The rebellion of a vassal state has no bearing on the question of whether it was originally a distinct polity. Kerma and Kush have already been proven to be directly connected.

I already provided you with a quote where Kush invaded Egypt and the Egyptians were barely able to stave them off during the 17th dynasty:

http://wysinger.homestead.com/article10.html

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/649/he1.htm

You are referencing 19th and 20th dynasty stuff to suggest that it was merely a rebellious province of Egypt and I'm telling you that before Kush was conquered, it raided Egypt as a foreign power with assistance from Punt and others in the 17th dynasty and the Egyptians themselves admitted this.

In fact, even the way Kush was referred to in one of the Ramesside era inscriptions reveals that it was grouped with foreign peoples meant to be subjugated by the Egyptians:

"Destroyer of Libya, vanquishing them - Merenptah, given life.

Long live the goodly god, a Lion against Khurro

a strong bull against Kush, to slay the Medjayu"



And yet other references to "miserable Kush" or "Kush the vile"/"vile Kush" in other Egyptian inscriptions make one wonder why one would claim they were  part of one indivisible people.

I don't have time for bs, so I'll move on if you're just going to keep peddling this "there were no Nubians/Kushites, only  Kemetians" stuff. You can declare yourself "victor" if it pleases you.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Rossikk(m): 8:21am On Jan 23, 2012
PhysicsQED said:

Rossike, you posted images of the Medjay warriors (http://wysinger.homestead.com/nubianarchers.html). Of course they aren't going to look anything other than black.

Like I said, earlier, I know what I've seen, and that I don't have the books on me and don't have time to track down all that I've seen years back doesn't mean I'm countering what you're arguing in order to pursue a certain agenda.

You're an embarrassment. Those are EGYPTIAN SOLDIERS. Those images (and it wasn't just of soldiers but regular Egyptians as well) showed ONLY BLACK PEOPLE, and were discovered in an Egyptian tomb!  Black Egyptians whom you refer to as ''Nubians''. This is a well-worn tactic used by racist western 'Egyptologists' when they can no longer hide or disguise the black ethnicity of the Egyptians. They call them ''Nubians''. But that's ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. Those soldiers are Egyptian troops. End of Story. Anything else you're saying is COMPLETE BOLLOCKS.

Ok, Show us the white Egyptian troops then! Or are you saying the white Egyptians of your dreams could not defend themselves and needed ''Nubians'' to fight for them?
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 8:25am On Jan 23, 2012
^^^

Like I told resw, I've already come across this argument, and it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, but if you want to believe that those aren't the Medjay, you can believe what you want. By the way, that they are Medjay does not exclude them from being Egyptians. That should be obvious.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Rossikk(m): 8:31am On Jan 23, 2012
^^^ It's not a question of ''if you want to believe''. PROVE TO US that those are not Egyptian troops!!!! Those artefacts were found in Egyptian tombs, not in ''Nubia''.  Because they are clearly black people, you go searching for a name for them - 'Medjay' or whatever crap it is you and your white racist masters called them. But if they were white you wouldn't go looking for some funny name to call them. You'd call them Egyptian. Why? Because you're mentally colonised and brainwashed!!!

Medjay ko. Magic ni!!
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 8:44am On Jan 23, 2012
Rossike, Medjay is a word taken from what the Egyptians actually wrote in some inscriptions. Admittedly, we don't really have the vowels, but it's a probable reconstruction/approximation of what the exact word was.

And once again, being Medjay or being Nubian does not preclude being Egyptian. They are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but that one can correctly state that Medjay or Kushites were Egyptians (like those troops) at times does not mean that one should go so far as to claim that they were all one identical people, or that the Kushites never had a separate polity.  A Welshman is also British, but it doesn't make the Welsh identical to other groups who they ended up being in the same country (U.K.) with after Wales was conquered. Not a difficult concept to grasp.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 10:18am On Jan 23, 2012
Hey resw and Rossike, I'll be bowing out of this discussion as I have a lot of other things to do this week and the following weeks (school). I don't really plan to come back to this thread afterward. Thanks for the discussion. Bye.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Horus(m): 12:35pm On Jan 26, 2012




Children wore a special hairstyle during  history, called the “side-lock.” The hair was shaved off except for a long lock of hair left on the side of the head. This was sketched on hieroglyphic as a symbol for depicting a child or a youth. Both girls and boys wore this style until the onset of puberty.


Afar man

Ahmose I
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Horus(m): 10:33pm On Jan 26, 2012




Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by firestar(f): 1:42pm On Jan 27, 2012
Hm.
This is alot to absorb!
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by tdikeh: 3:04pm On Jan 27, 2012
some look black, some look white hmmm
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by writeme: 3:10pm On Jan 27, 2012
how are you
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by resw77: 4:44pm On Jan 29, 2012
LOL @PHYSQED

Take your sorry excuses with you!

How exactly do the quotes you've picked prove your point??

LMAO
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by amor4ce(m): 5:13am On Feb 15, 2012
The Nigerian philologist Pa Modupe Oduyoye has demonstrated the relationships existing amongst Nigerian languages and the early Afro-Asiatic peoples of the Levant/Canaan/ so-called Middle East.

http://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-871245.0.html
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by assetstrap(m): 3:10am On Feb 18, 2012
To everybody who hAS contributed to this topic i say many thanks. This topic has being highly enlightening, a subject very close to my heart and it gladdens me to know that some of us have taken the time to get the knowledge. To @ ROSSIKK a big thanks, same to @horus. To know our history is a must, but its also spiritual, i'll leave it at that. Once again thanks people and i hope it will continue.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by taharqa: 1:44am On Mar 30, 2012
This is a summary(with links )of the biocultural origins of the Ancient Egyptians-the purpose is to provide people with information that they can research themselves and help them form their own opinions, hopefully away from the different agendas that have distorted this topic:


Let me just try to do a summary of my understanding of the peopling of the Nile Valley as I have deduced from reading many scholars on this subject: The Badarian and Early Naqada predynastic cultures were the northermost,relatively younger variants of a wider spread culture mainly in the 5th and early 4th millennium BC(called variously-Nubian Neolithic Culture Group by Gatto2006,2011;or Middle Nile Culture by Ehret 1993; Pastoral Neolithic of the Nile by Wengrow 2006; Saharo-Nubian Neolithic by Anselin 2009)- other variants of this same culture included the Tasians,Abkans,Rayaynas,Kiddanians,Early A-Group,Final Western Desert Neolithic,Kadruka,Kerma Neolithic, Khartoum Neolithics(Kadero,El kadada,Sheinahab,Geili etc). This culture of course descended from the so-called Khartoum Variant, a cousin of the Early Khartoum-all part of the wide spread Saharo-Sudanese technocomplex. The Early Badarians and Naqadans migrated to a very sparsely populated Upper Egyptian(southern) Valley as the Eastern Sahara was rapidly drying up, carrying this 'Nubian Neolithic Culture Group' during the mid-5th Millenium BC, with elements that would them be synthesized and processed into the Naqadan culture, especially during the mid to late phases of the culture-this developed Naqadan culture is the famous Egyptian Culture that one sees in dynastic times.

The expanding Naqadan culture would then replace the Lower(northern)Neolithics(especially so-called Buto-Maadi culture) during the late 4th millenium BC, thereby forming cultural unity. The Early Lower Egyptians were likely mainly an indigenious but divergent population that likely had some gene flow with the Levant, and also cultural links that was sometimes intense (see The Nubian Pastoral Culture as Link between Egypt and Africa:A view from the archaeological record,2011 by Maria Gatto http://yale.academia.edu/MariaCGatto/Papers/544327/The_Nubian_Pastoral_Culture_as_Link_between_Egypt_and_Africa_A_View_from_the_Archaeological_Record; Ancient Egyptian as an African Language,Egypt as an African Culture,1993 by Christopher Ehret http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?p=3650562#p3650562;The Archaeology of Early Egypt:social transformation in North-East Africa,2006 by D.Wengrow pg 50-59 http://books.google.com.ng/books?id=W9OFBw7yGZkC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false(wengrow 2006);Ancient Egypt in Africa,2003 edited by D. O'Connor and A. Reid pg 18-21 http://books.google.com.ng/books/about/ancient_egypt_in_africa.html?id=Zn3ViO-Vj-4C&redir_esc=y;Some Notes about an Early frican Pool of Cultures from which Emergered Egyptian Civilization,2011 by Alain Anselin http://www.google.com.ng/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=Some+Notes+about+an+Early+frican+Pool+of+Cultures+from+which+Emergered+Egyptian+Civilization%2C2009+by+Alain+Anselin&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fxa.yimg.com%2Fkq%2Fgroups%2F6121162%2F1735188988%2Fname%2Fanselin.pdf&ei=4v1kT-HnFYr80QXC6rjcDA&usg=AFQjCNHRAzn0OGFL64C6SOiYmzJ9NM9GdA&cad=rja;Egypt and Sub-Saharan African: their interaction,1997 in Encyclopedia of Precolonial Africa edited by Joseph Vogel http://wysinger.homestead.com/sub-saharan.html).

These early Badarians and Naqadans were, in the main, tropically/supertropically adapted indigenious northeast Africans that had greatest biological affinities with other northeast Africans and other southernly Africans,especially those in the horn and the sahel-sahara(see Egyptians,physical anthropology by Nancy Lovell in Encyclopedia of Archaeology of Ancient Egypt (ed) by Kathryn Bard and Steven Blacke http://www.google.com.ng/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=+Encyclopedia+of+Archaeology+of+Ancient+Egypt+%28ed%29+by+Kathryn+Bard+and+Steven+Blacke&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CDYQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barnesandnoble.com%2Fw%2Fencyclopedia-of-the-archaeology-of-ancient-egypt-kathryn-bard%2F1007915524&ei=YAJlT9iPMsWs0QXiypm6CA&usg=AFQjCNGDNhq0i7UTceh-bdnqBhq3rW35_w;Studies and Comments on Ancient Egyptian Biological Relationships byS. O. Y. Keita,1993 http://www.google.com.ng/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=keita+1993&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwysinger.homestead.com%2Fkeita-1993.pdf&ei=XSRlT4z6Con80QWauLCYDg&usg=AFQjCNHNpFKraSBWDs8c67vCNFQbIfCzkg&cad=rja;Studies of Ancient Crania from North Africa,1990 by S O Y Keita http://www.google.com.ng/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=keita+1990&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCUQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwysinger.homestead.com%2Fkeita-1993.pdf&ei=rSRlT6ynHem10QXukriRCA&usg=AFQjCNHNpFKraSBWDs8c67vCNFQbIfCzkg&cad=rja; Population Continuity or Population Change:
Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State,2007 by Sonia R. Zakrzewski http://soton.academia.edu/SoniaZakrzewski/Papers/1446838/Population_continuity_or_population_change_Formation_of_the_ancient_Egyptian_state;
A Bioarchaeological Perspective on State Formation In the Nile Valey,PhD Dissertation by Barbara SAnta,2004;Examination of Nubian and Egyptian Biological Distances:Suport for Biological Diffussion or in situ Development by Godde K,2009 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018442X09001176;



I would have loved to ask PhysicsQED some questions, especially he meant by some of the 'non-Black' north African people that he said were part of Ancient Egypt from the start.
Anyways I would like to make these points:
1. Biologically 'Race' does not exist, so the Ancient Egyptians could not have been part of the 'Black Race', just as other Africans were not part of the 'Black Race' biologically speaking.
2. The Early Ancient Egyptians were mainly indigenous northeast 'Black' Africans(a mix of Afrasans like Oromos and Nilosaharans like Maasai) who migrated mainly from a desiccating Eastern Sahara during the 6th-5th millennium BC. There likely might also have been small groups from the Near East, mostly through trade who were absorbed by these indigenous Egyptians(who were the vast majority)from the start. Over time Egypt absorbed many peoples(both other Africans and non-Africans) through small scale migrations, but also more dramatically during the Late Period when mass migrations of Mediterraneans(Greeks, Carians, Romans etc) and Near Easterners(Jews, Palestinians, Persians etc) settled mostly in the then relatively sparsely inhabited Delta. Other migrations from Byzantines, Arabs, Turks, Syrians etc would later follow. This is why most of the people living in the Nile Delta today look 'white'(they have been thoroughly mixed by these non-Africans).
PS: when I say that the Early Egyptians were 'Blacks', am not talking about a race, but that they are just a mix of indigenous dark-skinned Northeast Africans; and in my books, any indigenous dark-skinned African 'Black', but only in a social sense 1.e IDENTITY.
3. No doubt, the ancient Egyptian culture is completely African, in fact 'Black' African-since it clearly originated from the 'Black' Eastern Saharan groups, part of whom migrated(Tasians/Badarians, Naqadans) to Egyptian Nile, where they finally synthesized and defined the culture(Naqada) in Upper(southern)Egypt.
4. The closest people biologically and culturally to the Ancient Egyptians in EVERY study are the 'Nubians', in fact they had a common origin(through a rather complex process). They are of course not identical- no two people over a very long time are. Similarly the Ancient Egyptians were also biologically closer to some other Africans, like East Africans, before Europeans and Near Easterners.
5. There was and in some way still are, racist reasons for distorting and 'hiding' these fact by Eurocentists. These finds are now coming out and are been advocated by an increasingly number of scholars.
6. Like PhysicQED, am very skeptical and urge extreme caution in theories that intend to see some West Africans as migrants from the Nile Valley. In fact, the arguments used by proponents are not very convincing and are quite simplistic. True there are some 'fundamental' similarities between Ancient Egyptians/Nubians and West Aficans(in fact many other Africans) but this can more parsimoniously be explained by ancient interactions(direct or indirect) in the Green Sahara where most Africans were living during the period 10,000-4000BC. Both the Egyptians and Nubians as well as West, south and East Africans ancestors were inhabiting this huge region then. There might have been some migrations, but it cannot explain both the similarities and distinctiveness of West Africans from the Nile Valley dwellers.
7. I would like to caution PhysicsQED not fall into the hands of Eurocentists whose game in a losing 'battle' is to demonize Afrocentrists, in the face of very sound but counter arguments by people they call Afrocentists, especially on this issue. However, I agree with PhysicsQED when he urges us to be more critical and equally reject some of the few 'extreme' Afrocentrists who make some ridiculous claims- Cleopatra was 'black', the Greeks were 'Blacks' or they were civilized by 'Black' Egyptians from who they stole stole their philosophies from, Ancient 'Black' Egypt was the origin of all subsequent civilizations in the world ,in fact 'Blacks' originated civilization in Europe, China, Americas(with their 'Olmecs were Blacks' theory)etc etc. Let us resist the urge to use same unsound methods that Eurocentists used to belittle us as Africans-lets strive always to be critical and sound in the quest to understand and OWN our history that have been consistently distorted by Eurocentists. We can start that by not been too obsessive about only Ancient Egypt or Nubia but seek to understand others like Ancient Middle Niger Urban Civilizations, Benin, Kanem-Borno, Ancient Ghana, Swahili Civilization, Punt, Buganda, Kongo, Ife, Great Zimbabwe, Songhai, Mali, Askum, Dahomey, Ashanti and the many plenty villages and nomadic groups in Africa. They are all part of our history.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 4:02pm On Mar 30, 2012
Taharqa, I get your point, and what you wrote in #3 is something I've known for a while now, and it even ties in with the quotes from ancient historians (like Diodorus) and scholars noting that the "Ethiopians" colonized/started Egypt and it also ties in with Bruce Williams' work in a sense. So the issue of Egypt's culture being African is not really in question for me.

But I noticed you cited articles by S.O.Y. Keita. Have you actually asked him what his views are on the "racial" makeup of the ancient Egyptians?

From what I've read and heard from him I get the distinct impression that he holds that many/most of the Copts and other Egyptians there today (many of which we would not consider "black" in the modern sense because of their appearance) are representative of the kind of "racial" diversity (in terms of physical/outward appearance) that we could expect to see in Egypt in ancient times (Predynastic times even). Basically, it doesn't seem to be the case that he considers modern Egyptians to be significantly different from ancient Egyptians.

You also referenced "mass migrations" of "Mediterraneans" and "Near Easterners". Can you provide any evidence to back up these claims about "mass migrations"? I haven't seen a single study supporting the idea that the majority of the people one sees in Egypt today are mostly or significantly descended from people who migrated into Egypt en masse at some much later period and I would like to be enlightened.

As far as the Greeks copying the Egyptians, have you actually read Martin Bernal's Black Athena series of books (including his book responding to his critics, Black Athena Writes Back?) I think his basic thesis - even if some of the specifics are faulty or a few are tenuous - is highly plausible. Obviously the Greeks were innovators in their own right, but I suspect that many of their basics were essentially derivative of both Egyptian and Phoenician knowledge.

The claims about China or (non-Greek) Europe or the Olmecs are nonsense to me however. I have read the claims and counter-claims and I know that those are bogus.

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