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Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) - Politics (7) - Nairaland

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Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by taharqa: 1:28am On Mar 31, 2012
PhysicsQED: Taharqa, I get your point, and what you wrote in #3 is something I've known for a while now, and it even ties in with the quotes from ancient historians (like Diodorus) and scholars noting that the "Ethiopians" colonized/started Egypt and it also ties in with Bruce Williams' work in a sense. So the issue of Egypt's culture being African is not really in question for me.


Okay.


PhysicsQED: But I noticed you cited articles by S.O.Y. Keita. Have you actually asked him what his views are on the "racial" makeup of the ancient Egyptians?

From what I've read and heard from him I get the distinct impression that he holds that many/most of the Copts and other Egyptians there today (many of which we would not consider "black" in the modern sense because of their appearance) are representative of the kind of "racial" diversity (in terms of physical/outward appearance) that we could expect to see in Egypt in ancient times (Predynastic times even). Basically, it doesn't seem to be the case that he considers modern Egyptians to be significantly different from ancient Egyptians.

This is not really true. The statement I believe you are referring to is a video where he said that the diversity we see in Egypt is a clue to what was obtained in ancient times, but if you really listen very well this statement was sort of ambiguous. He did not specify the period he was talking about,neither did he specify what we meant by 'variability'. And if like me who have read all his works, you understand the context Keita talks, he uses variability when talking about Africans. Also,in his written works he makes it very clear that the people of the Delta are not a good representative of what the general ancient populations were, although he insists there was general continuity ie the Moderns are mainly the descendants of the Ancients but who have variously mixed, with the people in the Delta more so:


The information from the living Egyptian population may not be as useful because historical records indicate substantial immigration into Egypt over the last several millennia, and it seems to have been far greater from the Near East and Europe than from areas far south of Egypt. "Substantial immigration" can actually mean a relatively small number of people in terms of population genetics theory. It has been determined that an average migration rate of one percent per generation into a region could result in a great change of the original gene frequencies in only several thousand years. (This assumes that all migrants marry natives and that all native-migrant offspring remain in the region.) It is obvious then that an ethnic group or nationality can change in average gene frequencies or physiognomy by intermarriage, unless social rules exclude the products of "mixed" unions from membership in the receiving group. More abstractly this means that geographically defined populations can undergo significant genetic change with a small percentage of steady assimilation of "foreign" genes. This is true even if natural selection does not favor the genes (and does not eliminate them).
The Geographical Origins and Population Relationships of Early Ancient Egyptians by Professor S O Y keita and Professor A J Boyce


PhysicsQED: You also referenced "mass migrations" of "Mediterraneans" and "Near Easterners". Can you provide any evidence to back up these claims about "mass migrations"? I haven't seen a single study supporting the idea that the majority of the people one sees in Egypt today are mostly or significantly descended from people who migrated into Egypt en masse at some much later period and I would like to be enlightened.

Okay, there are many references I can give you but would give this new(2012) study by Egyptologist Baines:


In the Late Period, internationalism,
migration, and trade are especially well
documented, and immigration from Thrace
and the Greek cities of Anatolia was
facilitated by the establishment of Naukratis
(attributed to the reign of Psammetichus I)
and the use of Greek mercenaries, first against
Nubia (Psammetichus II) and later against
Persian rule. The descendants of Greek
immigrants took Egyptian names and
operated within Egyptian cultural practices: a
dark stone anthropoid sarcophagus is
inscribed for the deceased Wahibraemhat,
whose ethnic heritage emerges in the Greek
names of his parents, Alexikles and Zenodote,
transcribed into hieroglyphs (Leiden AM4:
Grallert 2001). One of the possible markers of
ethnicity—language difference—may have
worked against acculturation for some ethnic
groups, though such boundaries remain highly
permeable. The Carian community established
at Memphis, for instance, inscribed Carian
and Egyptian in parallel on a series of sixthcentury
BCE tombstones, which also
combined Greek and Egyptian visual forms
(Ray 1995; Kammerzell 1993; Hockmann
2001).
Alexander the Great’s conquest of Egypt, in
332 BCE, precipitated a period of mass
immigration. Peaking in the third century
BCE, immigration from the Mediterranean,
the Black Sea coast, Asia Minor, and the Near
East may have numbered into the hundreds
of thousands and included foreign slaves and
prisoners of war as well as economic migrants
and military veterans. In Greek and Demotic
sources, almost 150 different ethnic labels
attest to the scale and geographic range of
immigration and ethnic-group settlement
(La’da 2003: 158 - 159). Many Greek-speaking
immigrants did not remain separate from the
existing population. Men like the Greek
cavalry officer Dryton married into Egyptian families (Lewis 1986: 88 - 103; Pomeroy 1990:103 - 124), and an Egyptian priest named
Horemheb, who lived at Naukratis during the
reign of Ptolemy II Philadelphus, seems to
have had a Greek father and an Egyptian
mother (Derchain 2000: 20 - 21, 42 - 43).
Riggs, Christina, and John Baines, 2012, Ethnicity. In Elizabeth Frood, Willeke Wendrich (eds.),
UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology, Los Angeles.
http://escholarship.org/uc/item/32r9x0jr

Hundred of thousands of Mediterraneans during this period! But even before them there were marked migrations from Hyksos(though most were driven from Egypt by Ahmose),'Libyans'(who were affected by the Sea Peoples movements and who later became Egyptians in the north and even ruled for some time),Romans, Carians, Jews(who had settlements in Delta and even in Elephantine) etc:


A relatively well documented case of this kind of transfer, of a complete society from one region to another, concerns the Libyan during the 1st millenium BC who feature so prominently as the enemy in Egyptian battle records of 2 or 3 centuries earlier. In a kind of reverse exodus, and despite the earlier defeats at the hands of the Egyptians, they successfully moved as a series of complete societies from their homelands that must laid along the Mediterranean coastal zone to the Nile Valley. There they set themselves up in position of authority, eventually becoming the rulers of large parts of the country.
Barry Kemp 2006 pg42 and pg43


In Roman Egypt, “Egyptian” became a
defined category for taxation purposes
(Egyptians paid the poll tax at full rate),
alongside categories for Roman citizens,
Alexandrian citizens, citizens of the other
Greek cities (Naukratis, Ptolemais, and later
Antinoopolis), Jews, and metropolites. These
last, who paid reduced poll tax, were residents
of the nome capitals (metropoleis), and their
status as members within the metropolite
category had to be proved through paternal
and maternal descent (Nelson 1979). Censuses
carried out under Augustus may have
identified the “hellenized” elites of the late
Ptolemaic Period and codified their
membership, thus turning a quasi-ethnic
group into a hereditary status group. Other
individuals in Roman Egypt may have selfidentified
as “Greeks,” but without
metropolite (or gymnasial) membership, they
would not have enjoyed any recognition as
such for legal or taxation purposes. A
collection of statutes known as the Gnomon of
the Idios Logos underscores the Roman
administration’s concern with status and
group membership: according to one
stipulation in the Gnomon, a child born to a
Roman citizen and an Egyptian, as defined by
Roman law, would inherit the status of the
lower-ranking parent (Nelson 1979: 2).
Riggs, Christina, and John Baines, 2012, Ethnicity. In Elizabeth Frood, Willeke Wendrich (eds.),
UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology, Los Angeles.

Other ethnic groups may have
maintained more closed boundaries, such as
Jewish communities[in the Delta, Memphis and Elephantine], or the Persian residents implied by a third-century BCE stela from
Saqqara, inscribed in Demotic for a man
named Khahap, “leader of the Medes” (fig. 4;
Vittmann 2003: 72, fig. 33: Berlin 2118, lost in
World War II).
Riggs, Christina, and John Baines, 2012, Ethnicity. In Elizabeth Frood, Willeke Wendrich (eds.),
UCLA Encyclopedia of Egyptology, Los Angeles.

PS: As you can deduced from the source above, it was during this period and slightly that Coptic Identity began to crystalized, though it was a more complex process.
Note that before this the Delta was sparsely population as most of the population was then in the valley, but after this, especially after the Ptolemaic and Roman periods, the Delta became the most important region as it remained to this day. Also, dont forget movements during Byzantine rule and of course Arab period(when northern Egypt was really cosmopolitan). Movements of Turks from the Mamluk dynasty(which they formed) to recent times should also not be forgotten. At a various times there were also movements of 'Nubians' from the south.
So there is no question that very significant migrations happened but the question should be what was the biological affinities of Early Egyptians relative to other Africans and non-Africans, and if this affinities changed due to these migrations.
EVERY study(Keita 1990,1993;Zarkzweski 2002,2007;Godde 2009;Starling and Stock 2007;Buzon 2006;Berry Kemp 2006, even Brace 2006 etc) clearly tell us that the Early Egyptians had greater biological affinities to some Africans to its south than to Near Easterners and Mediterraneans, as one would expect knowing that the main population source of these Early Egyptians was from the desiccating Eastern Sahara. They also tell us that while there was some level of continuity modern Egyptians and even Late Period Delta Egyptians(who were affected by these movements from Greeks,Romans,Carians,'Libyans'etc) changed- in fact Zakrzweski tell us that they are not a 'typical' Egyptian series. See these:


"The question of the genetic origins of ancient Egyptians, particularly those during the Dynastic period, is relevant to the current study. Modern interpretations of Egyptian state formation propose an indigenous origin of the Dynastic civilization (Hassan, 1988). Early Egyptologists considered Upper and Lower Egyptians to be genetically distinct populations, and viewed the Dynastic period as characterized by a conquest of Upper Egypt by the Lower Egyptians.More recent interpretations contend that Egyptians from the south actually expanded into the northern regions during the Dynastic state unification (Hassan, 1988; Savage, 2001), and that the Predynastic populations of Upper and Lower Egypt are morphologically distinct from one another, but not sufficiently distinct to consider either non-indigenous (Zakrzewski, 2007). The Predynastic populations studied here, from Naqada and Badari, are both Upper Egyptian samples, while the Dynastic Egyptian sample (Tarkhan) is from Lower Egypt. The Dynastic Nubian sample is from Upper Nubia (Kerma). Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.
Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations(Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region"
-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528


The data consist of 55 cranio-facial variables
from 418 adult Egyptian individuals,
from six periods, ranging in date from
c. 5000 to 1200 BC. These were compared
with the 111 Late Period crania (c. 600-
350 BC) from the Howells sample. Principal
Component and Canonical Discriminant
Function Analyses were undertaken,
on both pooled and single sex samples.
The results suggest a level of local population
continuity exists within the earlier
Egyptian populations, but that this was in
association with some change in population
structure, reflecting small-scale immigration
and admixture with new
groups. Most dramatically, the results
also indicate that the Egyptian series
from Howells global data set are morphologically
distinct from the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Nile Valley samples (especially
in cranial vault shape and height),
and thus show that this sample cannot be
considered to be a typical Egyptian series.
Intra-population and temporal variation
in ancient Egyptian crania(: abstact AAPA 2004)
by S.R. Zakrzewski. Department of Archaeology,
University of Southampton, UK.

Also, see:

Dendrogram[in pg 57] which shows the relative closeness to or distance from one another of
males in 53 human populations from Africa and the Mediterranean region. The program has no
geographical or chronological intuity. It is thus reassuring to find expected groups
actually coming together, sometimes with a degree of chronological ordering, which suggest
evolutionary changes. The extent to which Late Period Giza cemetery is not representative
of Egypt as a whole but only one stage in population change is clear.
Berry Kemp 2006 pg 41

This is the dendrogram.Notice that modern Delta Egyptians are not in the primary block- who
are in the block? Why do you think we are seeing this pattern over and over again in all
these studies:



As far as the Greeks copying the Egyptians, have you actually read Martin Bernal's Black Athena series of books (including his book responding to his critics, Black Athena Writes Back?) I think his basic thesis - even if some of the specifics are faulty or a few are tenuous - is highly plausible. Obviously the Greeks were innovators in their own right, but I suspect that many of their basics were essentially derivative of both Egyptian and Phoenician knowledge.

Yea. I am not downplaying the influence of Egypt and other older civilizations on Greece, but am just pointing out that 'social complexity' cannot be diffused from one society to the other, even if there are influences, as it usually grows out of the culture of a particular society. Greek philosophies is different from Egyptian philosophies and 'wisdoms'; the Greeks did not steal its philosophy from Egypt as some 'extreme' Afrocentrists assert and that is not what Bernal was arguing. He was showing that Eurocentrists for racist reasons downplayed the influence of Ancient Egypt(Africans) and Phoenicians(Semites) on Greek development, not that Greeks stool their knowledge from either of them. I agree with him.

The claims about China or (non-Greek) Europe or the Olmecs are nonsense to me however. I have read the claims and counter-claims and I know that those are bogus.

We agree Bros.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 3:30am On Mar 31, 2012
Taharqa,


Thanks for the information. Very enlightening stuff. I had seen it as a culture with an early black origin/root but which was essentially mixed/heterogeneous very early on, and later on taken over by non-blacks completely but I see now that this may not be the case and that it may only have become mixed later.

There's just one possible hitch I see with regard to the "modern Egyptians are really Near Easterners and Mediterraneans that came to identify as Egyptians after moving there en masse" idea or the "modern Egyptians are really mostly of Near Eastern and Mediterranean stock but mixed with indigenous Egyptians" idea. How much of their (the non-black looking modern Egyptians who don't explicitly identify as being of non-Egyptian ethnic origin) DNA can be shown to be from or very close to that of the near-East/the Levant/Asiatics or Mediterranean groups? That was something else that I was hoping you would supply. Were they to be proven by someone else to have little admixture with Near Easterners/Levantine peoples or Mediterraneans and to be mostly related to other East African peoples, just as their ancestors were, wouldn't it make the claim that they are representative of Levantine or European migrants into Egypt during the Late Period or earlier that mixed with the indigenous population untenable?

Maybe I'm missing something or misinterpreting something that you've already explained in your post above, but does proving that they don't have exactly the right cranial morphology to match the earliest Egyptians actually prove they are Mediterranean or Levantine rather than indigenous or prove that they are mostly of Mediterranean or Near Eastern ancestry if there isn't already evidence of significant/large genetic dissimilarity between them and ancient Egyptians or other East or Northeast Africans around today?

Regarding Bernal's books, if you haven't read them in full, I would strongly suggest doing so. I've read volumes 1 and 2 and his book replying his critics and I plan to read volume 3 (about the linguistic evidence) sometime in the future. After reading three of his four books on this subject, I would say that it is very plausible that the Greeks were heavily influenced even to the point that it would not be inaccurate to argue that the roots of their civilization were indeed Afroasiatic (Egyptian and Semitic), not merely that they were influenced by Egypt and the Near East. I don't deny that they developed their own unique culture, philosophical ideas and social complexity afterwards and went on to make great strides, but I think it was probably more than mere influence after what I've read. It also makes sense to me from a purely logical standpoint: The ancient Greeks achieved so much and achieved so much more than the other European groups because they "stood on the shoulders of giants" due to what they inherited from the Near East and Egypt, just as the scholars of the Islamic Golden Age and the Renaissance built from the works of earlier scholars (especially Greek scholars and also Indian scholars in the case of the Islamic Golden Age). It is more than a little suspicious that the one place where high civilization really took off in Europe was Greece, when the ancestors of basically all the European groups who are stereotyped as being brilliant today (French, Germans, Russians, etc.) and considered as being the most brilliant of the European groups had achieved basically nil at that time or for centuries after the Greeks reached their zenith even when there wasn't really anything in their respective environments (for most of them) prohibiting such achievement/development. While there are certainly groups who have experienced a "Golden Age" without doing so based on the works of outside/external cultures or building on the achievements of ancient foreign cultures, all of these groups (such as Chinese or Indians), if not held back by difficult developmental/social conditions arising from their histories, seem to often exhibit the same characteristic brilliance shown by their ancestors to various degrees today, while the modern Greeks seem like a rather ordinary group of Europeans (like the Spaniards) and not at all the "cream of the crop" or the intellectual gods of the larger Indo-European group from which they came.

[Not that I have anything against the actual Greek people, of course, just my personal observations.]
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by taharqa: 4:12am On Apr 07, 2012
@PhysicsQED am sori am just responding,I was somewhat busy and also I could not access this site for the last 3 days.

I think biological evidences(cranial metric and nonmetric,skeletal) is important in demonstrating some degrees of changes between Early Egyptians and Modern Egyptians, especially when we also utilize other lines of evidences in building our model(archaeological, historical-linguistics,geography,climate,general culture etc).
However, as you suggested Genetics can also be important. You would need aDNA analysis of ancient Egyptian samples across different periods and different locations and then do rigorous staistiocal comparison with neighbouring populations; the problem is that aDNA analysis is very rare paertly cos of the problem associated with ancient Dna preservation. I am aware of about 3 aDNA studies: a 12th Dynasty pharaoh where the lineage identified is said to be 'subsaharan' while other lineages were not identified(Paablo et al 1993), the 1st millennium AD(so late) Dakhlet oasis study that had a 'mixed' genetic profile but with the 'subsaharan' component said to be younger, and of course the recent 2012 DnaTribes analysis of Amarna pharaohs that reveal genetic profiles today common in certain parts of inner African http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2012-01-01.pdf .

Most of the studies are on MODERN Egyptians all of which show that MODERN Egyptians have a diverse genetic profile from Africa, Mediterranean and Near East with the African components generally older and the Delta Egyptians much closer to some nonAfricans than the upper Egyptians(which can be interpreted, though not with certainty cos we are just modelling from modern Egyptians, that those nonAfricans that we know migrated markedly especially in the Delta imparted significantly on MODERN Egyptians ).

Some studies on MODERN Egyptians include: http://genapps.uchicago.edu/labweb/pubs/krings.pdf (Kings et al),
http://wysinger.homestead.com/haplotypes_in_egypt.pdf (Lucotte et al), but use this Keita and Boyce study
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf. See these on the Arab main introduction of J1 seen in the Delta: http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf and
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf ; also see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14748828.

Its good that you are cautious, so the information that you have now use it to seek more info on this and other subjects
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by taharqa: 4:16am On Apr 07, 2012
sorry. This is the Keita and Boyce 2005 study: http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita.pdf
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Rossikk(m): 11:40am On Apr 25, 2012
Great thread. cool cool
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Nobody: 2:34pm On Jun 30, 2012
The great thing about history is that when these uneducated lowlifes come into this site with their 'white is this and that', all we have to do is pull out this thread to remind them that BLACKS were the pioneers of ALL civilization we see today, and without those pioneering efforts by blacks we would have no modern world today.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 4:43pm On Jun 30, 2012
Taharqa, thanks for the info and the links. Hopefully someday more direct evidence can be obtained that is less ambiguous in meaning than what is available now.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by DuduNegro: 5:16am On Jul 01, 2012
PhysicsQED: Taharqa, thanks for the info and the links. Hopefully someday more direct evidence can be obtained that is less ambiguous in meaning than what is available now.

. . . .another evidence in the palm of your hand and you are still refusing to let go of your bias. Humble yourself my brother and move away from Eurocentric myths on white civilizations.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 9:28am On Jul 01, 2012
Dudu_Negro:

. . . .another evidence in the palm of your hand and you are still refusing to let go of your bias. Humble yourself my brother and move away from Eurocentric myths on white civilizations.

I'm not sure you understood my comment.

The reason any debate persists is because the modern Egyptians that don't look "black" are always being tied in one way or another to to the ancient Egyptians. If the genetic evidence - not the other evidence, which is not always unambiguous enough - from the actual ancient Egyptians becomes overwhelming then the whole debate will stop. I do not think 3 limited studies are sufficient to conclude anything and for one of these studies (the Dakhlet oasis study) to claim that the "subsaharan" (read: black African) component of the DNA is younger rather than older (although the study is of individuals who lived at a late time in Egypt's history), and when yet another study (the 2012 DnaTribes analysis of Amarna pharaohs referred to by Taharqa) is inconclusive at best (http://hamiticunion.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=38) on "what" they actually were, it makes little sense to think that more evidence is not needed.

If more genetic studies on the ancient Egyptians give a clear and unambiguous profile of them, then the issue will die down. As of right now, the information is too slim.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by DuduNegro: 11:01am On Jul 01, 2012
There is no amount of exhaustive genetic studies with profoundly convincing data and evidence that will turn Europe away from its position on Egypt. Consider not just the economic impact to the society but also the academic and philosophical disgrace to their cultural institutions and legacies - arts, music, science, military.

To admit in the face of damning evidence that Greek philosophers and alchemists were taught the mysteries of nature by early African scholars would forever change every ounce of credibility sorrounding the authorship of the Homeric classics. Even Shakespare will not survive scrutiny.

I believe it is a good knowledge to have and to teach for Afrocentrism. Other than that, I don't see how it places Africa in the league of developed economies or demotes Greek into a third world country. lmao!
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PhysicsQED(m): 11:11am On Jul 01, 2012
Dudu_Negro: There is no amount of exhaustive genetic studies with profoundly convincing data and evidence that will turn Europe away from its position on Egypt.

Perhaps this is true, but I would like massive evidence to exist "just for the record". Europeans will not always determine how history is written.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by DuduNegro: 11:26am On Jul 01, 2012
True word!
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Rossikk(m): 3:28am On Sep 26, 2012
PhysicsQED:

Perhaps this is true, but I would like massive evidence to exist "just for the record". Europeans will not always determine how history is written.

MASSIVE EVIDENCE DOES EXIST. You're just too far up whitey's assss to see it as such.

I mean, if ALL the ancient visitors to Egypt wrote that the Egyptians were blacks with kinky/wooly hair (IE NEGROID), what other ''evidence'' do you require??

Why would you even demand ANY further evidence once the documentary evidence is so unanimous in its description of the Nile Valley populations?

I mean, just because western 'researchers' have decided to hold out for even ''more evidence'' before they can 'accept' the historical truths of Egypt does not mean WE must legitimize OUR findings on Egypt only after their 'approval'. There's no need to make yourself a slave to them.

Do you think for one second that if those same ancient visitors, scholars, and chroniclers had written that the Egyptians were white blondes, that there would be any debate or controversy today? Or that there would be any DNA testing or cranial studies of mummies to 'determine their race once and for all' etc etc?? Absolutely not. Anyone who disputed the accounts of Aristotle, Homer, Lucian, and Diodorus would immediately be dismissed as a lunatic. Yet we are being asked to disregard what ALL those men wrote, pending ''conclusive evidence'' cooked up in some modern KKK, neo-nazi lab by racists.

God forbid.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Nobody: 11:02pm On Dec 08, 2013
Dudu_Negro:

. . . .another evidence in the palm of your hand and you are still refusing to let go of your bias. Humble yourself my brother and move away from Eurocentric myths on white civilizations.
No mind the guy...
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Baragsen17: 11:00pm On Jan 07, 2014
Science has moved on the ancient eypgtians werent caucasians or mixed race in otherwords part caucasian just listen not to what i am saying but what scientists,historians and archeologists are saying in the 21ST CENTURY. Anyways all my links are 21st century evidence and from unbiased sites so if you look up to confirm thats great i made it easy for you by copying and pasting the evidence so if you were to google it you would find it in an instant.
Archealogical evidence of eygptians origins in sub sahara.
google” the history of africa” by wikipedia
It says
“Around 16,000 BCE, from the Red Sea hills to the northern Ethiopian Highlands, nuts, grasses and tubers were being collected for food. By 13,000 to 11,000 BCE, people began collecting wild grains. This spread to Western Asia, which domesticated its wild grains, wheat and barley. Between 10,000 and 8000 BCE, northeast Africa was cultivating wheat and barley and raising sheep and cattle from southwest Asia. A wet climatic phase in Africa turned the Ethiopian Highlands into a mountain forest. Omotic speakers domesticated enset around 6500–5500 BCE. Around 7000 BCE, the settlers of the Ethiopian highlands domesticated donkeys, and by 4000 BCE domesticated donkeys had spread to southwest Asia. Cushitic speakers, partially turning away from cattle herding, domesticated teff and finger millet between 5500 and 3500 BCE.[10][11]”
Ethiopia is were agriculture began and ethiopians spread this to arabia and europe theres genetic evidence for this which i will show later on the genetic section of this message.
google”the Nabta playa”By wikipedia it says
Analysis of human remains by Fred Wendorf and reported in “Holocene settlement of the Egyptian and Nubian Sahara”, based on osteological data suggests a subsaharan origin for the site’s inhabitants.”
osteology is the study of bones by the way.
Ancient eygptians ancestors and descendants.
The ancient eygptians claimed they came from punt
google”
“The Land of Punt, Ancient Egyptians Ancestors
Saturday, October 20, 2012 12:07 ″
it says” Their place of origin was “Ta Seti” (‘Land of the Bow’) in the Sudan. Gradually tradition would identify both Somalia and the Sudan as “Ta Khent” (‘Land of the Beginning’ or ‘Ancestral land’). The answers to the questions “Where did the Ancient Egyptians come from?” or “What race were the Ancient Egyptians?” have already been given centuries ago, by the Ancient Egyptians themselves. It isn’t a surprise, however, that such relevant information on Ancient Egypt by the Ancient Egyptians themselves, is never mentioned in contemporary books about Ancient Egypt (1)”
But where was punt?
Google”Baboon mummy analysis reveals Eritrea and Ethiopia as location of land of Punt”
it says
“However, it appears that the search for Punt may have come to an end according to new research which claims to prove that it was located in Eritrea/East Ethiopia.”
google”
Eritrea and Ethiopia
Continual Conflict
Author: Jon Stephenson”
eritrea before european powers was part of ethiopia so punt was in ethiopia it says”In the 16th century, the Abyssinian Empire arose from Tigray and the whole of Eritrea and Ethiopia became subject to Abyssinian rule. Abyssinian rule of Eritrea was challenged at times, most notably by Ottoman and Egyptian powers, but generally speaking, Abyssinia ruled the whole of these regions for centuries. As indicated by this Rand McNally map from 1897, both Ethiopia and Eritrea were considered to be Abyssinian at the turn of the 20th century.[4]”
also google”ethiopians empire in wikipedia”
Scramble for Africa and modernization[edit]
In 1868, following the imprisonment of several missionaries and representatives of the British government, Britain launched a punitive expedition into Ethiopia. The campaign was a success for Britain and the ruler of Ethiopia committed suicide. The 1880s were marked by the Scramble for Africa. Italy, seeking a colonial presence in Africa, invaded Ethiopia and following a successful conquest of some coastal regions, forced the Treaty of Wuchale upon Shewa (an autonomous kingdom within the Ethiopian Empire), creating the colony of Eritrea.”
ethiopia was the origin of the eygptians but the ancestors of blacks carrying haplogroup E
Descendants of the eygptians the Garamantes
google “Fall of Gaddafi opens a new era for the Sahara’s lost civilisation”
it says”The late Muammar Gaddafi was fond of insisting on the links between his republic and sub-Saharan Africa. He was less interested, however, in celebrating the black African civilisation that flourished for more than 1,500 years within what are now Libya’s borders, and that was barely acknowledged in the Gaddafi-era curriculum.”
Linguistics
google”e1b1b” in eupedia”
its says”E1b1b lineages are closely linked to the diffusion of Afroasiatic languages”
To get a better picture of the migration google”E1b1b”by wikipedia it has a map it shows that e1b1b is ethiopian in origin.it shows that ethiopians have the oldest haplgroup E subclades for eg the e1b1b subclade. it went to eygpt became younger than went to libya and became even younger.
Tuaregs
i am giving you this info because @horsenation racistly denies my people were black people with no shred of evidence he claims they are white.
google image”Libyan tuaregs” they are black african here is more evidence
google” Libyan Democracy:Elections After Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing” it says” The genocide on black Libyans, Tuareg and Tawergha continues; so does the resistance”google”Libyan Tuaregs Flee to Algeria Amid Reports of Ethnic Cleansing.
google”the Tuareg of the sahara an age old occupation.
google “Libya” in wikipedia. in the demographics section in the sub heading ethnic groups it says” ] Other ethnic minorities INCLUDE Libyan blacks
, the Tuareg
, and theTebou
.[143]
Genetics
Google”
Revealed: the face of the first European
35,000-year-old skull fragments found in Romania are made flesh by scientists”
Everyone looked like this at one stage whites stop looking like this 5500 yrs ago asians however a bit earlier 12,000 yrs ago but asians as in north east asians as in chinese,siberian and japanese looking people have a different gene for light skin which evolved in north east asian most likely siberia.
google”Study of Tribe Could Help Find East Asian Skin Color Genes”
it says
“While East Asians — Chinese, Japanese and Korean — also are light skinned, these European alleles are not present, suggesting that while both groups’ lighter skin color evolved to allow for better creation of vitamin D in northern climates, they did so in a different way.”
People saying”North Africa as a whole are in the majority back migrants from Asia within the last 40,000 years and the sub Saharan admixture is pretty recent.” the sub saharan part is false considering that e1b1b and other E subclades are ethiopian and ethiopia is in sub saharan africa yes there was some back migration but its not the majority sub saharan would be huge considering E subclades are ethiopian.but what did people look like 40,000 yrs ago? /watch?v=Aj-JZnpcSs and you havent seen this video /watch?v=TUliLKSJ4bQ
Google”e1b1b” in eupedia this is my genetic marker but interestly as the link show its what marker the eygptians were which belongs to the haplogroup y dna E e1b1b is a subclade of E my e1b1b is younger than the eygptian e1b1b also i am of tuareg ancestry so that explians tuareg also descend from the garamantes they are a younger independant off shot of eygpt.google”Fall of Gaddafi opens a new era for the Sahara’s lost civilisation” ancient eygptianswere e1b1b carrier
My link is peer reviewed everyone google”The African Origin of Ancient Egyptian Civilization
by Brandon Pilcher” this women Sally Ann Ashton confirms ancient eygptians were essentially black africans and theres a consensus to add along too she proves that cleopatras was half eygptian (half black african) here father however was white macedonian she was have black via her eygptian mother.watch at 7:45 many racists who deny are mainly from the USA european schools acknowledge that ancient eygpt was a black civilization
/watch?v=CLoDgDE83rs
and these are king tuts real dna results by dna tribes because ignea took strs from a TV screen in documentry channel and king tuts doc ignea never got king tuts actual dna but most likely someone elses here is his actual dna results dnatribes did get king tuts actual y dna haplogroup
/dnatribes-digest-2012-01-01.pdf and to add ramses 3
/dnatribes-digest-2013-02-01.pdf so ancient eygpt was a black civilization.
Why is it imposible for eygpt to be white in the first place? This links explains why
google http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1210056/White-Europeans-evolved-5-500-years-ago-food-habits-changed.html

yes whites only evolved 5500 yrs ago but when did whites arrive to africa has been revealed google “Ethiopian Genetic Diversity Reveals Linguistic Stratification and Complex Influences on the Ethiopian Gene Pool”heres the link http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297(12)00271-6

the link says”Using comparisons with African and non-African reference samples in 40-SNP genomic windows, we identified “African” and “non-African” haplotypic components for each Ethiopian individual. The non-African component, which includes the SLC24A5 allele associated with light skin pigmentation in Europeans, may represent gene flow into Africa, which we estimate to have occurred ∼3 thousand years ago (kya). The non-African component was found to be more similar to populations inhabiting the Levant rather than the Arabian Peninsula,” so ancient eygpt was never white or mixed
because non african features found on whites arrived in africa 3000 yrs ago so before that the eygptians didnt have any non african dna that would effect their features in making them mixed or white. Because whites only evolved 5500 yrs ago and migrated to africa 3000 yrs ago this however seems to coincide white the encounters of king solomon and queen sheba and other indepandent travels of whites in africa and also the arabization of certain areas of africa such as east and north africa.so even if european dna went to africa say 7000 ,9000yrs or 15,000 yrs or anytime before the existence of white skin which was 5500 yrs ago they would have still been black for example in cameroon the kirdi people and ouldelme have 95% r1b many black africans carry european haplogroup but because they all came before whites evolved the european who migrated were still black people.
So lets recap the ancient eygptians language which was part of the afroasiatic phylum traced to ethiopia began 18,000 yrs ago.e1b1b the dna of the eygptians traced to ethiopia agriculture began in ethiopia at 16,000 BC which was 18,000 yrs ago nabta playa which is 12,000 yrs ago in sudan by these migrating e1b1b people who soon become the eygptians there descendants in libya the garamantes have the same language and dna but they are younger than the eygptians also the eygptians dna and language were both younger than their ethiopian ancestors.whites only evolved 5500 yrs ago and only arrived in north africa 3000 yrs ago.also the dna tests done on the ancient eygptians were african if they were mixed race they would have varying dna results of non african and african but as my link states the have separated non african genes from african genes in the non african mutations arrived 3000 yrs ago this included white skin and all caucasian features.
Anthropology
google” http://www.hennabysienna.com/henna-in-the-ancient-world.html

it says”Henna in Egypt
The earliest potential records of henna use come from Egypt. Mummified bodies have been found with what appears to be henna-dyed hair and hennaed fingers; the mummy of Ramses II, among others, was noted to have hennaed fingertips and toes. The earliest of these findings dates back to the predynastic period of Egypt, approximately 3400 BCE.
Infra-red analysis has confirmed that the orange-red colouring is consistent with the active molecular ingredient in henna, hydroxy-naphthoquinone; the results of the microscopy also suggest, interestingly, that the henna was applied after death. If so, this may perhaps indicate the use of henna in some kind of mourning ritual or ceremony for the dead. While the mummy of Ramses II has henna-dyed hair, microscopic analysis confirms that he was in fact red headed in his youth; it could be suggested, therefore, that the henna was applied to restore his youthful appearance, either in his old age or during the mummification process.”
Almost all of the eygptian mummies were applied with henna but only those that had red hair besides many people regardless of race use henna example
google” http://www.flickr.com/groups/994002@N22/”
The ancient eygptians had flat nasal bridges lack of prominent foreheads,high cheekbones and a lack of a prominant chin(your nasal bridge is the part of the nose that is between the eyes) these are black african features

This is a link done by an asian scientist named Paul kekai Manansala and he says shows and proves that the ancient eygptians were black using racial forensic studies. He says "The purpose of this study is to refute the argument that the Pharaohs did not conform to the "Negroid" phenotype, but not to support any biological basis of the concept of race."Just read the link and watch the skull descriptions and diagrams.

http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/data7_files/data7.htm

Heres more information on the man who did the research

http://www.linkedin.com/in/paulmanansala


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18257013
google image”painting in the tomb of Nakht.”

google image”rekhmire tomb paintings” and google image”ancient eygptians wooden models” google image “niankepi”

be honest they have african features.

now lets see unmixed africans

google image each of the following separatly:congolese,himba,fulani, igbo,senegalese,Tutsis,khoisan,borana people,libyan tuaregs,yoruba,herero,.masai sudanese.


examples of ancient eygptians

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/11th_Dynasty_Egyptian_funerary_statue_(Gulbenkian_Museum).jpg

http://wysinger.homestead.com/files/photo99.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-N5NpPSiWqF8/Tz4vw0mpddI/AAAAAAAAAUE/ZuJN_O0iP6U/s400/ancient+egyptian+farmers.jpg

http://www.mitchellteachers.org/WorldHistory/AncientEgyptNearEastUnit/Images/AncientEgyptDailyLifeSocialPic.jpg


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0AJagbKutvA/UNRvB-ZkVzI/AAAAAAAAA6E/QcH3lrVtpUE/s1600/Ancient+Egypt+Agriculture.jpg


http://www.transoxiana.org/0110/Images/estatua-nianjpepi.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2053/1773165374_71817ac6ac_o.jpg

http://images.bridgemanart.com/api/1.0/image/600wm.TBM.4637010.7055475/104185.jpg

http://www.ancient-egypt.co.uk/metropolitan/images/Metropolitan%20NY%20Nov-2005%200446%201.jpg

http://studio.sofiatopia.org/istudio.jpg

http://www.britishmuseum.org/images/themes_wooden_oxen_36586_624x352.jpg




Now these people arent mixed also note that these people have a reddish brown skin and the features are what i described.

now if we look at whites they don't have those features

Caucasians(whites) have the following a prominant forehead,narrow cheeks,high nasal bridge and prominent chins
google”white americans” the dont have these features and google mixed race their features are a mixed not african not europeans and the eygptians didnt have a mixture of those features. in conclusion all my info prove eygpt was black using recent aspects and avoiding afro and euro centric sites and all info is 21st century!
google”New World Encyclopedia Ancient eygpt”
this link is a long story short of almost everything i gave you.
it says
“Neolithic Egypt was probably inhabited by black African (Nilotic) peoples (as demonstrated by Saharan petroglyphs throughout the region). Following the desiccation of the Sahara, most black Africans migrated south into East Africa and West Africa. The Aterian culture that developed here was one of the most advanced Paleolithic societies. In the Mesolithic the Caspian culture dominated the region with Neolithic farmers becoming predominant by 6000 B.C.E.. The ancient Egyptians spoke an Afro-Asiatic language, related to Chadic, Berber, and Semitic languages, and recorded their origin as the Land of Punt.
Herodotus once wrote, “the Colchians are Egyptians … on the fact that they are black-skinned and have wooly hair” (Histories Book 2:10 4). A genetic study links the maternal lineage of a traditional population from Upper Egypt to Eastern Africa.[1] A separate study that further narrows the genetic lineage to Northeast Africa[2] reveals also that “modern day” Egyptians “reflect a mixture of European, Middle Eastern, and African”). The racial classification of Ancient Egypt has come to play a role in the Afrocentrism debate in the United States, where Egypt’s legacy becomes a prize over which Africans and Europeans contest ownership.”
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by uzoexcel(m): 4:01pm On Oct 26, 2014
Rossike,many many thanks for this thread...over a long while I have been trying to 'relearn' history and hard facts keeep cropping u especially as per the black race!!! Over d past few weeks,d following phrase has been running through my mind ' it all began in ancient egypt' . I really dunno why I v been having this thoughts though I think it stemmed from my reanalysis of history and a thesis topic (quantum teleportation) which I had to change half way for another topic for private reasons not unconnected to my private research..anyways I m just rambling incoherently cheesy
What I just wanna say is that I'm delighted to see peopl of like minds on this subject
ROSSIKE post=458250top6:
Naijaking 1 wrote:



lol, that's interesting. I actually think he looks like OBJ (in his younger days). grin



Absolutely. You can rest assured you have several HUGE cities buried underneath the millions of tons of sand in that Sahara.

Like you said, the place was once a thriving region filled with greenery, lakes, orchards, and kingdoms.

Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by uzoexcel(m): 4:26pm On Oct 26, 2014
Words on Marble
ROSSIKE:
If ''tribalism'' is big in Africa, while the same folks engaged in such behaviour (or witnessing it, as in your case) would readily drop their guard and play happy smiling brother to the first Johnny foreigner who enters the scene, then there is a big problem. Afterall when brothers fight, a stranger moves in to steal.

I believe if Africans had imbibed the lessons of history, we would never have allowed the Structural Adjustment Programs of the 80s, prescribed by our ''brother white men'', which ruined our economies. We would not permit the ''Washington Consensus'' on development to hold sway on the continent, a philosophy which holds that a developing nation must open its market to foreign goods and devalue her currency, cut spending on public projects, education, health etc etc.

We would be far more DISTRUSTFUL and DISDAINFUL of foreign schemes aimed at ''helping'' us, because we would KNOW that the foreigners, having NEVER ''helped'' Africa in her 5,000 years of recorded history, aren't about to start doing so today.

We are in effect, on our own. The sooner we realise THIS, the sooner it will help to curb the ''tribalism'' and infighting among ourselves.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by Nobody: 3:27pm On Jun 15, 2015
uzoexcel:
Words on Marble
Thanks Uzo.
Re: Tomb Art From Ancient Egypt: A Black African Civilization (pics) by PabloAfricanus(m): 12:38am On Jun 16, 2015
Rossikk:
PhysicsMHD said



I'm quite frankly sick of people like you who come here to regurgitate western fantasies borne of their racist agenda. You're just here mouthing rubbish about things you know nothing. Virtually EVERY Ancient Egyptian tradition remains in existence in West and Central Africa till date, indicating 100% cultural continuity between the Nile Valley civilizations and its African offshoots. Go and read Olumide Lucas, and some other modern AFRICAN authors who know Egypt, like Cheikh Anta Diop, instead of wasting your time studying compromised western 'Egyptologists' who are mainly paid-up propagandists there to tell us that Egypt was not African to suit their racial agenda.

Now, even when we clearly see BLACK AFRICANS on the artefacts and so on, YOU still come here to try to tell us that they are 'not really African'. Why don't you take your Uncle Tom self and go on some western forum and try convincing them that the Greeks 'had nothing culturally to do with Europe' and see how they'll respond to you, yet you think you can come here to mouth such ignorant garbage in relation to Africa?

Excerpts from Olumide Lucas' The Religion of the Yorubas showing unmistakeable racial and cultural connections to Egypt.

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/2139

Rossikk
Interesting thread.
Funny that Africans have to rely on excavatory work and history done by the whites to even discuss events that happened in Africa!
The challenge I have always posed to a lot of misguided "afrocentrists" is :
(1) identify your tribe/ethnic group
(2) give me the "oral history" or "written history" of "ancient Egypt" amongst your people

Few have any clue as to how to go about answering that question.
Similarities in "pronounciations" and phonemes has largely been proven to be the bedrock of speculative conjectures.
With any sufficient degree of imagination, similarities could be found between Japanese and any African tongue!
Maybe advances in genetics will help us unravel ancient history and identities.

The last word on the real identity of the peoples who lived in ancient Egypt, North Africa and the Mediterranean is not out...yet.
Pity africans south of the sahara were not invested in historical record keeping.
And the Arabs and Europeans are still in for the shocker of their lives...when they discover what melanin really is.

@bolded...I'm interested.
Which Ancient Egyptian traditions remain in existence in West and Central Africa till date?
I really want to know.

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