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The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) - Religion (3) - Nairaland

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Inquiry For Justcool And M_nwankwo And Other Adherents Of The Grail Message / The Grail Message / Grail Message Or Grail Centre (2) (3) (4)

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Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by pilgrim1(f): 4:45pm On Aug 10, 2007
@enitan2002,

I appreciate your efforts to make sense out of this comedy of sorts. However, if Grail Messengers and crossbearers would do me the one favour of addressing issues and not play circular games, this thread can progress ethically. If someone is going to offer answers to my ONE question on REDEMPTION, is this the best recommended prolegomena to such an answer:

Hnd-holder:

We expect people with overgrown intellect not to seeing things from spiritual point of view. Little do they know about the Bible.

Who are Grail followers trying to impress with that kind of presumptious rascality?

On the otherhand, I appreciate again this line of yours:

enitan2002:

can you guys see exactly what you've caused.You are simply not proud of who you are.

Precisely - they should help themselves to be clearly identified so others don't have to give them appellations instead.

@All,

Make una chill. I only asked a question. If una no fit find the answer from una Grail library, no wahala, abi?  grin
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Nobody: 4:49pm On Aug 10, 2007
pilgrim.1:

Ahh, yes. . . this is how Abd-ru-Shin addresses REDEMPTION, not so - with another excuse to scoot away from the real issue and slake it with "INDOLENCE OF THE SPIRIT"?!?

Now, Hnd-holder. . . don't let that chap deceive you further. 'Overgrown intellect' could just simply be self-accusative actually - and incase you haven't realised it as yet, is that terse exculpation not the very reason why Grail followers (oops, otuwe, apologies) uhm. . . Grail "crossbearers" - is that not the reason why crossbearers have offered that the shape of the forehead has grown to the present size because the brain has actually over-developed? Did anyone cared to ask what was the shape of Oskar Ernst Bernhardt's head? Did he have "overgrown intellect" as well? If you care, please go stand in front of a mirror and come tell us if your brain also was under-developed.

For all I care, "Indolence of the spirit" is a one way traffic to nowhere for those who have decided to check their brains at the feet of O. E. Bernhardt so that they only come back typically displaying vacuity of thought.

Pilgrim,
it's ok, just take the rest of the day off, ok?
If you go on further, you might step on my toes and i know you wouldnt do that, just cos of me let everything lie softly, is that clear baby?
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by pilgrim1(f): 4:53pm On Aug 10, 2007
Hnd-holder:

Yes I am a proud CROSSBEARER , I saw pilgrim.1 as a seeker who try to mix her believe with things around her. I read the message 7 times before I could understand a point.
Someone must be forcing her into the message either her fiance or her parent. what a bad seed they reap. Producing somebody that is superficially looking at the message.

She need a lot of help.

Lol. . . okay, I APOLOGISE!! Abeg, no vex! Incidentally, one of my close friends in the office has threatened to disconnect from me if I did not apologise - that's why I'm doing so! undecided

And again, no one was or is trying to 'force' me into the message. No one. Confessedly, I've a few friends who have beleaguered me with the challenge to go read it AGAIN and AGAIN before opening my 'small Nigerian mouth' (Toks, I go catch you later sha) - and I've read it several times. Even when I asked them the question sef, they always said the same thing: 'If you don't get anything out of the book, just drop it!' undecided

enitan2002:


Pilgrim,
it's ok, just take the rest of the day off, ok?
If you go on further, you might step on my toes and i know you wouldnt do that, just because of me let everything lie softly, is that clear baby?

Yes Sir! undecided grin

- - - - -

Okay, Fide, Toks, et al - I've apologised and decided to leave the thread for now. Happy at last? kiss
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Hndholder(m): 4:54pm On Aug 10, 2007
You ask a question that you want the answer in your own way.

Like asking an Engineer   What is stress?

Then A psychologists  What is STRESS?

You will never have the same  answer. A crossbearer to answer your question in your own way to please you! NEVER please go your own way

You are just seeking using your language /philosophical skill which we are not intrested it.
Read it or leave it

You are on your own.
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by mnwankwo(m): 4:57pm On Aug 10, 2007
Well, it seems neither pilgrim nor those who follow the Grail Message want to listen to me. You people can do whatever pleases you. All I know is that love considers the feelings of other people and will not try to hurt them either through words, thoughts, actions etc. I still think it is possible for people to discuss beliefs, faith, conviction with joy and laughter even when their is disagrement. Also we must recognise the limitation of a forum like this in discussing some of these issues. It is likely that if all the contributors have met physically to discuss these matters, some of the problems will not crop up. I am an old man, at least older than most of you I presume, and experience has thought me to be extremely gentle in questioning or disputing deeply held convictions of others. Life has also taught me that no progress is made when you point out flaws or percified flaws in the convictions of others. The best way in my opinion to spread our convictions is to live according to the Laws of God and that will be reflected on how we interact with any person that crosses our path. Cheers.

1 Like

Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by pilgrim1(f): 4:59pm On Aug 10, 2007
Hnd-holder:

You will never have the same  answer. A crossbearer to answer your question in your own way to please you! NEVER please go your own way.

I hear. No vex. I don't want to vex my pals and colleagues  grin Toks, Fide. . allow me this one.

Your authors quoted the Bible endlessly - I asked a question - I sought a Biblical answer. If they didn't have Biblical answers, no wahala.

Good afternoon! grin
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Hndholder(m): 5:05pm On Aug 10, 2007
pilgrim.1

What a lovely and intelligent girl. What we gave you was a biblical answer think over them let meet another day. I think I love you.

Regards
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by pilgrim1(f): 5:10pm On Aug 10, 2007
I love you plenty, too (no let enitan2002 catch you sha!). kiss

And here's a personal message from my colleagues:

Tokunbo and Fidelia (they said I should use their real names):

"TO ALL CROSSBEARERS and SEEKERS, WE LOVE YOU ALL!!!!!!!!!!"

Message delivered - so there! smiley
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by mnwankwo(m): 5:12pm On Aug 10, 2007
Enitan,

I do not  need to because it is not necessary or required.
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Hndholder(m): 5:15pm On Aug 10, 2007
Thank you all, I wish they join us to discuss more issues on Nairaland. It is wonderful having them all on board.

Enitan can not do me anything let him know that I said I LOVE you all.
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Hndholder(m): 5:23pm On Aug 10, 2007
NB
"Some Truths Are Not in the Scriptures"

----- Sephen Lampe
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by pilgrim1(f): 8:07am On Aug 11, 2007
Hnd-holder:

NB
"Some Truths Are Not in the Scriptures"

----- Sephen Lampe

Such as. . . ?
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by mnwankwo(m): 12:55pm On Aug 11, 2007
I wonder how you expect Pilgrim to discuss with you on the Grail Message when you quote Lampe`s statement saying that not all Truths are in the scriptures. That statement can only ellicit antagonism and scorn from her. She holds the bible sacred and you do not need to be a seer to sense what her response will be. I have said it before and will say it again. In given expression to your convictions, it is not right in my opinion to to start pointing out what one considers to be flaws in the convictions of others. The beliefs of every person are governed by his or her experience in life. The experiencing can come through a spoken or a written word, intense joy or sorrow, feeling of utter helplessness or by spiritual encounter etc. It varies with each person and no two person are exactly alike. Therefore we have a right to give expression to what we belief but we have no right to feel upset, angry or frustrated when people we share our conviction with reject it, question it, or mock it. Rather we should show love and sympathetic understanding. Experiences in life offers all human beings several oppurtunities to come to the recognition of God, and when and how it happens rests with each individual.
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by pilgrim1(f): 9:36am On Aug 12, 2007
@m_nwankwo,

It's true what you've said, but nevermind that people say what they want in whatever way they choose. I'd like to be good to everyone and keep loving my friends - Hnd-holder, enitan2002, otuwe. . . and you as well. wink
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Nobody: 9:06am On Aug 13, 2007
pilgrim.1:

@m_nwankwo,

It's true what you've said, but nevermind that people say what they want in whatever way they choose. I'd like to be good to everyone and keep loving my friends - Hnd-holder, enitan2002, otuwe. . . and you as well. wink

but your love towards me should be different from others oooooo, you should've even included my name to be last instead of m_nwankwo, dont make that mistake again, ok baby?

How was your sunday service yesterday?Holla me back
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by pilgrim1(f): 9:18am On Aug 13, 2007
Okay sir! Hmmm. . . na wa! Aproko and otuwe, una miss! Am I not lucky to have found a rare one? grin

Sunday was very pleasant - but quite challenging. And yours?

Enjoy! smiley
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Nobody: 9:50am On Aug 13, 2007
pilgrim.1:

Okay sir! Hmmm. . . na wa! Aproko and otuwe, una miss! Am I not lucky to have found a rare one? grin

Sunday was very pleasant - but quite challenging. And yours?

Enjoy! smiley

Mine was splendid after experince the hour of worship on[b] GRAILLAND, Iju Hills, Lagos[/b].

Have a lovely day.
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by pilgrim1(f): 9:55am On Aug 13, 2007
You too. cheesy
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Hndholder(m): 10:14am On Aug 13, 2007
m_nwankwo:


I wonder how you expect Pilgrim to discuss with you on the Grail Message when you quote Lampe`s statement saying that not all Truths are in the scriptures. That statement can only ellicit antagonism and scorn from her. She holds the bible sacred

The greatest part of LOVE is severity you know that it is not good to pretend. If she is conviced she will pick or the challenge to ask why lampe said that.
Is that not the truth?
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Nobody: 10:52am On Aug 13, 2007
Hnd-holder:

The greatest part of LOVE is severity you know that it is not good to pretend. If she is conviced she will pick or the challenge to ask why lampe said that.
Is that not the truth?

WORD!!!
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by pilgrim1(f): 11:45am On Aug 13, 2007
Hnd-holder:

The greatest part of LOVE is severity you know that it is not good to pretend. If she is conviced she will pick or the challenge to ask why lampe said that.
Is that not the truth?

Na so grin - and that's why I asked earlier:

pilgrim.1:

Such as. . . ?
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by otuwe(f): 12:04pm On Aug 13, 2007
[size=18pt]IT'S A PITY[/size]


enitan et all.

be carefull little fingers mouth wat u type say

there is a saviour up above watching over me and u so be careful. . be careful wat u type say

if only u all cud see the forms u are making ethereally with all these belittling of the Word of God, you wud bow ur head in shame.

enitan2002:

Mine was splendid after experince the hour of worship on[b] GRAILLAND, Iju Hills, Lagos[/b].

worshipping on Grailland wont take u to heaven u know so why do u emphasise it like doing that alone has given u a ticket to heaven.
or did pilgrim tell u where she worshipped or asked u where u worshipped.
u asked how her service went and she said ok and urs
a simple "splendid" wud av surficed. am sure she already knows where u worship.

anyway lets all make sure we dont say things dat wud tie us down for a long time.

@ pilgrim
sorry if u misinterpretted my advice.
i dont mean u shouldnt ask questions but there  is just a time for everyone to come to an appreciation of the Grail message. when that time comes u wouldnt even need to ask any more questions (dats if u really have questions)

and pls stop stereotyping crossbearers. maybe u should try and go for a public lecture or do u just prefer to debate the issue with people around u who havent even ccome to a good understanding of the Message to profer answers.

all the answers u need are in the Message. ive found all the answers i need there and i still find something new every time i read it but then again i started on a good foundation (Thank God am not a Lawyer grin)  so i didnt read it like i was preparing for a court session. cheesy


i read it cos i was looking for answers which i didnt get from other spiritual works. if it didnt give me those answers i wud have dropped it not going to people and asking them questions (cos they didnt write it)

i just hope u wud try and understand where am driving at instead of scrutinising every single word av used for a point of attack.am not a good writer so i might not express my thoughts accurately in writing maybe if we were talking i cud make more sense.

cheers
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by mnwankwo(m): 12:06pm On Aug 13, 2007
It is neither pretence nor indulgence that make me react the way I did to your exchanges with Pilgrim. It is the knowlege that such discussions will lead her further away from the Grail Message. Kindly go through what Pilgrim has said in angered reaction to your statements and you may probably see why I advised against such hot exchanges. Ofcourse, you can continue with your arguments and take resposibility for all you say and what you also provoke her to say. The statement of Lampe was used in a context and for you to quote such a statement, both you and the person you are quoting to must have read the Grail Message and the Lampe`s book. In addition what Lampe wrote in the book Christian and Re-incarnation is his own experiencing. It is only recognitions and recognition is not the same thing as Truth. I again advise that people should be sparing in quoting the works of those who have read and believe the Grail Message. Rather they should advise all those who want to know about the Grail Message to read the book itself. If after they have read and find nothing in it, they should drop it. It is not meant for them at that point in time.
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by pilgrim1(f): 12:23pm On Aug 13, 2007
@otuwe,

I read you. But let's make a few things clear:

I love a friendly atmosphere with people - and thus the several friendly exchanges and laughter with enitan2002, you, Aproko, Hnd-holder (a good friend now). .  and several others. If relating with all these folks and your good selves actually came across the wrong way, I dare to say SORRY to all, and henceforth withdraw all I have offered.

Incidentally, I'm not an 'angel' and I gracefully recognize my shortcomings and failures. So, if I've actually been hotheaded, brash, and unnecessarily over-reactive, I dare again to say SORRY to ALL. Perhaps the one thing for me to do henceforth is watch others share and say nothing.

Thank you for your friendly inputs and warm memories - I cherish them deeply.

Best regards. cheesy
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Hndholder(m): 12:25pm On Aug 13, 2007
You are right. We always think we are wiser by avoiding hitting the nail but doing a wrong thing in the process. If the first is good why do you need something new?
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by pilgrim1(f): 12:27pm On Aug 13, 2007
m_nwamkwo,

m_nwankwo:

Kindly go through what Pilgrim has said in angered reaction to your statements and you may probably see why I advised against such hot exchanges.

Many people have won my deepest respects - and you have managed to maintain it consistently all along. Thank you for being so level headed.

To ALL, I deeply regret being read in anywise as exchanging "angered reaction". I did NOT mean to. I offer my apologies and hope that we'd all have good causes to enjoy the reason why we are here as HUMAN BEINGS. Thank you for being so understanding with this troublesome pilgrim.1 - I'm really blessed to know that inspite of all, people have been accommodating and had good thoughts towards me.

Warmest regards. smiley
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Hndholder(m): 1:02pm On Aug 13, 2007
You have your freewill to say what you like to say within the law. But do good.

The BIBLE.
The first recorded instance of God’s Word being written down, was when the Lord Himself wrote it down in the form of ten commandments on the stone tablets delivered to Moses at the top of Mount Sinai.
Biblical scholars believe this occurred between 1,400 BC and 1,500 BC… almost 3,500 years ago. The language used was almost certainly an ancient form of Hebrew, the language of Old Covenant believers.
The earliest scripture is generally considered to be the “Pentateuch”, the first five books of the Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy… though there is some scholarly evidence to indicate that the Old Testament Book of Job may actually be the oldest book in the Bible. The Old Testament scriptures were written in ancient Hebrew, a language substantially different than the Hebrew of today. These writings were passed down from generation to generation for thousands of years on scrolls made of animal skin, usually sheep, but sometimes deer or cow. Animals considered “unclean” by the Jews, such as pigs, were of course, never used to make scrolls.
When the entire Pentateuch is present on a scroll, it is called a “Torah”. An entire Torah Scroll, if completely unraveled, is over 150 feet long! As most sheep are only about two to three feet long, it took an entire flock of sheep to make just one Torah scroll. The Jewish scribes who painstakingly produced each scroll were perfectionists. If they made even the slightest mistake in copying, such as allowing two letters of a word to touch, they destroyed that entire panel (the last three or four columns of text), and the panel before it, because it had touched the panel with a mistake! While most Christians today would consider this behavior fanatical and even idolatrous (worshiping the scripture, rather than the One who gave it to us), it nevertheless demonstrates the level of faithfulness to accuracy applied to the preservation of God’s Word throughout the first couple of thousand years of Biblical transmission.
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Nobody: 1:07pm On Aug 13, 2007
otuwe:

[size=18pt]IT'S A PITY[/size]


enitan et all.

be carefull little fingers mouth what u type say

there is a saviour up above watching over me and u so be careful. . be careful what u type say

if only u all cud see the forms u are making ethereally with all these belittling of the Word of God, you would bow your head in shame.

worshipping on Grailland wont take u to heaven u know so why do u emphasise it like doing that alone has given u a ticket to heaven.
or did pilgrim tell u where she worshipped or asked u where u worshipped.
u asked how her service went and she said ok and urs
a simple "splendid" would av surficed. am sure she already knows where u worship.

anyway lets all make sure we don't say things that would tie us down for a long time.

@ pilgrim
sorry if u misinterpretted my advice.
i don't mean u shouldnt ask questions but there  is just a time for everyone to come to an appreciation of the Grail message. when that time comes u wouldnt even need to ask any more questions (that is if u really have questions)

and please stop stereotyping crossbearers. maybe u should try and go for a public lecture or do u just prefer to debate the issue with people around u who havent even ccome to a good understanding of the Message to profer answers.

all the answers u need are in the Message. ive found all the answers i need there and i still find something new every time i read it but then again i started on a good foundation (Thank God am not a Lawyer grin)  so i didnt read it like i was preparing for a court session. cheesy


i read it because i was looking for answers which i didnt get from other spiritual works. if it didnt give me those answers i would have dropped it not going to people and asking them questions (because they didnt write it)

i just hope u would try and understand where am driving at instead of scrutinising every single word av used for a point of attack.am not a good writer so i might not express my thoughts accurately in writing maybe if we were talking i cud make more sense.

cheers
I'm really shocked to hear this from you, well still yet am not disturbed cos i know who you are.
I didnt utter that word in a supericial manner as you thought.

And one thing is being on GRAILLAND alone gives me a new sense of being drawn to nature, and that is simply the reason anything that will make me stay away from GRAILLAND for a very long time i'll surely avoid it, it is a place i feel some kind of easiness after a long week, my soul is lightened and gladdened, and i will always be proud to tell who cares to listen that, thats the place i worship. I dont know about you.

What even gave you that impression? Beware of your thoughts towards your fellow men, otuwe
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Nobody: 1:20pm On Aug 13, 2007
@ otuwe,
one thing is that if i should leave the physica world today, my chances of making heaven is slim, cos i still have a lot to shed off.And to what you are thinking that by going to GRAILLAND alone gives me the ticket to heaven is blasphemy, cos even the message clearly says no human is holy but the ALMIGHTY alone is.
If you dont have the opportunity of worshipping on GRAILLAND then why get annoyed towards that person who's got the opportunity.

The place where the light was first anchored on a black man's soil, and you are telling me i shouldnt be happy towards that.
Dont you know its a great opportunity to find oneself on GRAILLAND?
IF YOU DONT, KNOW I KNOW
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Nobody: 1:23pm On Aug 13, 2007
Hnd-holder:

You have your freewill to say what you like to say within the law. But do good.

The BIBLE.
The first recorded instance of God’s Word being written down, was when the Lord Himself wrote it down in the form of ten commandments on the stone tablets delivered to Moses at the top of Mount Sinai.
Biblical scholars believe this occurred between 1,400 BC and 1,500 BC… almost 3,500 years ago. The language used was almost certainly an ancient form of Hebrew, the language of Old Covenant believers.
The earliest scripture is generally considered to be the “Pentateuch”, the first five books of the Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, & Deuteronomy… though there is some scholarly evidence to indicate that the Old Testament Book of Job may actually be the oldest book in the Bible. The Old Testament scriptures were written in ancient Hebrew, a language substantially different than the Hebrew of today. These writings were passed down from generation to generation for thousands of years on scrolls made of animal skin, usually sheep, but sometimes deer or cow. Animals considered “unclean” by the Jews, such as pigs, were of course, never used to make scrolls.
When the entire Pentateuch is present on a scroll, it is called a “Torah”. An entire Torah Scroll, if completely unraveled, is over 150 feet long! As most sheep are only about two to three feet long, it took an entire flock of sheep to make just one Torah scroll. The Jewish scribes who painstakingly produced each scroll were perfectionists. If they made even the slightest mistake in copying, such as allowing two letters of a word to touch, they destroyed that entire panel (the last three or four columns of text), and the panel before it, because it had touched the panel with a mistake! While most Christians today would consider this behavior fanatical and even idolatrous (worshiping the scripture, rather than the One who gave it to us), it nevertheless demonstrates the level of faithfulness to accuracy applied to the preservation of God’s Word throughout the first couple of thousand years of Biblical transmission.


@ Hnd-Holder,

what do you say to what otuwe have been saying.
I need your reply on that
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Hndholder(m): 1:45pm On Aug 13, 2007
By approximately 500 BC, the 39 Books that make up the Old Testament were completed, and continued to be preserved in Hebrew on scrolls. As we approach the last few centuries before Christ, the Jewish historical books known as the “Apocrypha” were completed, yet they were recorded in Greek rather than Hebrew. By the end of the First Century AD, the New Testament had been completed. It was preserved in Greek on Papyrus, a thin paper-like material made from crushed and flattened stalks of a reed-like plant. The word “Bible” comes from the same Greek root word as “papyrus”. The papyrus sheets were bound, or tied together in a configuration much more similar to modern books than to an elongated scroll.
These groupings of papyrus were called a “codex” (plural: “codices”). The oldest copies of the New Testament known to exist today are: The Codex Alexandrius and the Codex Sinaiticus in the British Museum Library in London, and the Codex Vaticanus in the Vatican. They date back to approximately the 300’s AD. In 315 AD, Athenasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, identified the 27 Books which we recognize today as the canon of New Testament scripture.
In 382 AD, the early church father Jerome translated the New Testament from its original Greek into Latin. This translation became known as the “Latin Vulgate”, (“Vulgate” meaning “vulgar” or “common”). He put a note next to the Apocrypha Books, stating that he did not know whether or not they were inspired scripture, or just Jewish historical writings which accompanied the Old Testament.
The Apocrypha was kept as part of virtually every Bible scribed or printed from these early days until just 120 years ago, in the mid-1880’s, when it was removed from Protestant Bibles. Up until the 1880’s, however, every Christian… Protestant or otherwise… embraced the Apocrypha as part of the Bible, though debate continued as to whether or not the Apocrypha was inspired. There is no truth to the popular myth that there is something “Roman Catholic” about the Apocrypha, which stemmed from the fact that the Roman Catholics kept 12 of the 14 Apocrypha Books in their Bible, as the Protestants removed all of them. No real justification was ever given for the removal of these ancient Jewish writings from before the time of Christ, which had remained untouched and part of every Bible for nearly two thousand years.
Re: The Holy Grail? (Grail Message) by Hndholder(m): 1:58pm On Aug 13, 2007
enitan2002:

@ otuwe,
one thing is that if i should leave the physica world today, my chances of making heaven is slim, because i still have a lot to shed off.And to what you are thinking that by going to GRAILLAND alone gives me the ticket to heaven is blasphemy, because even the message clearly says no human is holy but the ALMIGHTY alone is.
If you don't have the opportunity of worshipping on GRAILLAND then why get annoyed towards that person who's got the opportunity.

The place where the light was first anchored on a black man's soil, and you are telling me i shouldnt be happy towards that.
Dont you know its a great opportunity to find oneself on GRAILLAND?
IF YOU DONT, KNOW I KNOW

otuwe is on his own. I am intrested only on pilgrim.1 whose question brought life to the thread. I really appreciate her. I do not like the way she was force to stop asking questions she should ask for us to supply the points for others to read.

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