author=LegalWolf post=120589360]We would not give up in exposing the folly of your religion. Nah we won’t. And this is not a question of you insisting, but of common sense. Just a few questions:

1. Is Moses an Hebrew Name or a Jewish Name ?

2. Is Chiamaka an Igbo name or a Christian name?

3. Is Umar a Muslim name or an Arabic name?

Please don’t stray. Just keep your answer simple and short !

We would not give up in exposing the folly of your religion. Nah we won't.
Did I mention specific prophets names? Did I say all the names of the prophets bear Yahweh appellations? Did I say their names appear in Islam in the Hebrew language? Clearly refer me to where I made these assertions. Otherwise your questions are useless.

I was talking about imported prophets of Islam for crying out loud!

TenQ:


God does not NEED sacrifice to forgive SIN, it is Man who need a sacrifice/exchange for his sin to be atoned

I'll say that by His nature of Justice, God needs a sacrifice to forgive sin

Reason is His Justice demands that sin should be fully and totally either punished or paid for. This is what Jesus did on behalf of everyone

Thanks

LegalWolf:
Hey TenQ

On the 13 December 2022, I canvassed the following argument (which you were mentioned) reproduced below. Just to clarify - I never said I responded to you or answered your question. Why would I spend my time explaining my religion to a person destined by a thief? A future armed robber - Lawrence TenQnih. Nah. I have other things to do. But for the sake of completeness, here you have it



cc: Lawrence TenQnih the future thief

FxMasterz [you can run through the post and that gives you an insight into my explanation. I made further rebuttals and you should check that as well]

It is you and your prophet Mohammed that are thieves, liars, Pedophiles , prostitutes and necrophiles destined for nowhere else BUT hell fire from a religion of fabricators.
Since it seems you lack simple culture you feel slanderous remarks works.
At least I have tonnes of evidence for the deprived lowlife character of your prophet. And by extension, since he is your role model, you are like him.

The only acclaimed prophet accused of STEALING.
The only acclaimed prophet handling and raping children.
A despicable character to which 80% of the world worst is better than.


LegalWolf,
How can the SPIRITUALLY BLIND and DEPRAVED lead anyone to Paradise?

Of course, like your prophet blind as a bat.

Show me just one prophet of God that is one tenth as depraved as your prophet. Just one if you can?
Qur'an 46:9
Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear.

As long as you remain uncultured, you and your prophet will receive the spanking of truth from me.

You are a LIAR from Islam the Religion of lies and fabrication !
Is half of your hadiths not fabrications?

KingNom:


I'll say that by His nature of Justice, God needs a sacrifice to forgive sin

Reason is His Justice demands that sin should be fully and totally either punished or paid for. This is what Jesus did on behalf of everyone

Thanks

It isn't God then who need Atonement. The person who needs freedom from the consequence of his transgression is the one who NEED the payment.

Unfortunately, it is impossible for man to pay for his transgression. Therefore, for the reason of God's love He presented the payment (A Life for a Life evidenced by the shedding of blood).

This is why by grace we are saved through faith, ..it is a a GIFT of God.

Eph 2:8-9:
"For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

If our salvation is a GIFT of God to us, how can He NEED anything?
To comprehend this, you need to answer the Question below from the bible:
What do you think God Does with the Blood of Sacrifice?

Is it necessary that the Messiah has to die or that his blood be shed? That is, would atonement be complete if Jesus was nailed to the cross but brought down before he died?

FxMasterz:


We would not give up in exposing the folly of your religion. Nah we won't.
Did I mention specific prophets names? Did I say all the names of the prophets bear Yahweh appellations? Did I say their names appear in Islam in the Hebrew language? Clearly refer me to where I made these assertions. Otherwise your questions are useless.

I was talking about imported prophets of Islam for crying out loud!

This does not answer my simple questions. Apparently, you know where the interrogation would lead to and that your religion cannot be defended logically. Lol 😂. Again answer my questions and stop beating around the bush for arguments I never made of implied.

PS: I thought you’ll refer me to the suffering servant verses of Isiah when I asked you to provide clear pieces of evidence from the bible. But again, you ran away.

Let me know when you answer my questions. Until then, may the sweet bloooooooooood of Jesus be with you

Lol, so calling you by your essence could actually rile you up like this, ehn Lawrence TenQnih the future thief? Hahaha 🤣 . Abeg o!

TenQ:

It is you and your prophet Mohammed that are thieves, liars, Pedophiles , prostitutes and necrophiles destined for nowhere else BUT hell fire from a religion of fabricators.
Since it seems you lack simple culture you feel slanderous remarks works.
At least I have tonnes of evidence for the deprived lowlife character of your prophet. And by extension, since he is your role model, you are like him.

The only acclaimed prophet accused of STEALING.
The only acclaimed prophet handling and raping children.
A despicable character to which 80% of the world worst is better than.


LegalWolf,
How can the SPIRITUALLY BLIND and DEPRAVED lead anyone to Paradise?

Of course, like your prophet blind as a bat.

Show me just one prophet of God that is one tenth as depraved as your prophet. Just one if you can?
Qur'an 46:9
Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear.

As long as you remain uncultured, you and your prophet will receive the spanking of truth from me.

You are a LIAR from Islam the Religion of lies and fabrication !
Is half of your hadiths not fabrications?

yhwh bears me witness that you are an habitual liar who is destined to be a future thief. There’s no way you can run from your destiny. Lol, Lawrence TenQnih Oyenusi 😝😝😝

FxMasterz:


That's your way. Your means of defense is to always use the word 'liar' against someone who didn't lie, and hypocrite against someone who's telling you all the truth he knows. It's your usual antics. We know you too well. But you calling me a liar or hypocrite doesn't make me one.

So, direct quotes from your Quran and hadiths are all lies. You're asking me to show you where Taqquiya is in your Quran or Hadith? Who on earth doesn't know that Taqquiya is Islamic? Who doesn't know that Islam practices it too well? Who's the hypocrite? You or I?

Stop dilly-dallying! Show me where the word exists! You're the hypocrite!

I can't quote from your Bible rightly but you can quote from the Qu'ran rightly.

Until you can be civil and exhibit character upgrade, no point responding to this!
I have only hit you with verifiable truths

LegalWolf:
Lol, so calling you by your essence could actually rile you up like this, ehn Lawrence TenQnih the future thief? Hahaha 🤣 . Abeg o!



yhwh bears me witness that you are an habitual liar who is destined to be a future thief. There’s no way you can run from your destiny. Lol, Lawrence TenQnih Oyenusi 😝😝😝

Is it not true that your prophet is the WORST and most DEPRAVED of human beings who remotely think themselves a prophet?

Is it true that your prophet was under the influence of satan for almost a year and thus suffered from a terrible bout of SCHIZOPHRENIA and INSANITY?

Is it true that you LegalWolf is modelling your life after him?

Therefore, you are not far from what he was and it may be good you sought deliverance and medical intervention.

Hey TenQ,

How come I missed this? I don't know if I was shadow banned yesterday but I don't get to receive notifications until someone else mentions me and I run through the list. But anyways I have read EVERYTHING you said and I feel like dancing. You know why? You also recognize the illogicality of your argument and how profoundly insane your doctrines are. Let me break it down for you

TenQ:

In other words, your claim

Have you seen NOW that it is Man who NEED to PAY for His SIN and not God who need Sacrifice to Forgive Sin.



Interestingly, you answered the issue in your quote below

You bolted! TenQ you ran away and like was (falsely) reported in the bible, you looked up to the sky and said 'Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachtani' to no avail. I clearly answered your question by conceding that in truth, your hypothetical man needs forgiveness. But I also went on to show that it is a two way thing and ultimately prove that yhwh needs blood to forgive. He is incapacitated. He cannot help it. He is constrained. To this line of argument, you are mute!

I echoed the same thoughts when you used the seller and exchange example BUT you bolted and argued that 'It is not a simple case of purchase of items'. Because IT SIMPLY does not make sense and defies logic!

TenQ:

In other words, it is an extremely SERIOUS matter if God gives a Command AND the command is VIOLATED by anyone!
It is INCONCEIVABLE that God will command man (as an example)
1. Not to STEAL, and a man goes on to STEAL
2. Not to commit ADULTERY, and a man goes on to commit ADULTERY
3. Not to MURDER, and a man goes on to MURDER
4. Not to worship IDOLS, and a man goes on to worship IDOLS

Please can you attempt answering the questions below as TRUTHFULLY as you can
Mr LegalWolf,
1. When this VIOLATION is committed by man or jinn, do you think GOD will IGNORE it as [b]TRIVIAL?
2. Do you think God has a STANDARD PROTOCOL for Dealing with Such OFFENCES?
3. Do you think God's PROTOCOL for dealing with such ERRING creations of light effect?
[/b]

You have still succeeded in doing one thing and thing alone - Nothing. To answer your question:

1. No, when man sins, God will punish. But the question is - Must HE require blood/sacrifice in order to forgive?

2. Yes, he does. But it is clearly insane to conceive the idea that the core of those protocols is the reaquirement of blood!

3. That I don't know. But what I do know is that it does not make sense that the primary thing God will require is blood, while the subjective intention of the sinner for true repentance is secondary.

TenQ:


Finally, it is NOT about Gods incapability of CHANGING His own LAWS, it is about the SEVERITY of the UNTHINKABLE OFFENCE committed by Jinn or Man.

Please Educate me: According to Islamic Theology,
1. Does Shaitan know that he would end up in hell fire?
2. Why is it like Shaitan will never Repent UNTIL he is thrown into the Fire or will he finally repent?

Mr. TenQ you have still not proved anything logically, with all due respect. A man does the unthinkable offence and the next requirement is to require blood of unblemished lamb to forgive? Now some of the follow up questions I have for youare:

a. Since the lamb has been sacrificed, has that stopped man from doing the unthinkable offence?

b. I am aware you argued that the sin is man's nature and even equivated it to dirtiness as part of pig's nature (although, scientific evidence abounds that this is not true. But I will concede to your point), has the sacrificed 'changed' human nature from being sinful?

[There are other parts of the original doctrine I want to explore but not now]

For completeness, so as to avoid the charge of running from your question:

1. I do not know if Shaitan knows he will end up in hell. How am I to know? 2. I do not know too.

This is the beauty of Islam. We consider ourselves helpless in the front of the Almighty. He alone KNOWS everything but we trust is judgment completely, absolutely and without a doubt. But when God makes decisions, he invites us to think AND we can rationalize EVERYTHING he told us to do!

But this is not about islam. The topic is the Gospel Explained for Muslims!

TenQ:


Holiness mean these depending on its context of use
1. Free from Sin or Imperfection (eg Jesus was Holy)
2. Anything or Anyone Belonging Exclusively to God (Holy Prophets of God)
3. Anything Dedicated Entirely for Gods use
Leviticus 11:44
For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth.

Holiness mean be in conformity with God.
As God is without Blemish, be without blemish by aligning yourself exactly with God's WILL through your obedience to Him!

Chapter 11 of Leveticus was talking about clean and unclean foods and it is in that context that God's warning. See 11:46 that said ' these are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves......' Or am I wrong?

So stretching it as you have done is beyond logic to me. God has not told us to be 'without blemish' as you falsely induced.

TenQ:


I think I was very clear on it.
Will you drink from a cup previously used to pack TENQs Excrement was the Question!



Notwithstanding,
The Analogy is to explain to you that the Quantity of SIN does NOT matter,
A contaminated cup is contaminated irrespective of if the contaminant is small or plenty.
JUST AS
SIN is a CONTAMINANT: A person is contaminated Before God irrespective of if the SIN is small or plenty.

Thank God you acknowledge answered your question with the word 'notwithstanding'. Again, I am not disputing with you that a sinner needs forgiveness/atonement whether he commits 'heavy' or 'light sin'. No! My argument is a very simple one. Let me identify it for you since you fail to see it:

- Sins are individual and not communal and should be punished individually.
- It is preposterous for yhwh to require blood for atonement for EVERY type of sin, whether heavy or light
- That in any event, needing blood as a condition for salvation is not different from devil worship. It is insane and cannot be justified in logic

TenQ:


What ever you choose to think is your business


Stop being Evasive as usual of you

That was why I asked you the Question: Please Dont Dodge Answering this Questions:
Are you suggesting that God can CHANGE the LAWS of His Power of "BE" "kun faya kun" because Humans VIOLATED it?
(I asked SIMPLE Questions which ANY Muslim should be able to answer)
1. God commands Humans "BE HOLY" and man Chose to Act Opposite by Living "UNHOLY": and you think the greatest offence in the Universe has not been committed?
2. Are you saying is that there is NO Consequence for the "BE" or "kun faya kun" to be VIOLATED by ANYONE!?
3. Since the Beginning of TIME, Has the Command "BE" or "kun faya kun" of God EVER Been VIOLATED?

Finally, you are not grounded in Islamic theology neither do you know your religion. Unlike the stray advocatejare, we would answer your questions.

1. Correct, if man decides to act against God's teaching, then the greatest offense in the Universe has been committed

2. No HUMAN, living or dead, has ever violated Be and It is. Kun fayakun is in the context of creation and not commands for humans capable of being violated. A similar example is in one of my favourites books - Genesis 1:4 where it was said 'Let there be light'. Is that a commandment capable of being violated, ehn TenQ?

3. Simple answer - No, it has NEVER been violated.

cc: FxMasterz
advocatejare

LegalWolf:
Hey TenQ,

How come I missed this? I don't know if I was shadow banned yesterday but I don't get to receive notifications until someone else mentions me and I run through the list. But anyways I have read EVERYTHING you said and I feel like dancing. You know why? You also recognize the illogicality of your argument and how profoundly insane your doctrines are. Let me break it down for you



You bolted! TenQ you ran away and like was (falsely) reported in the bible, you looked up to the sky and said 'Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachtani' to no avail. I clearly answered your question by conceding that in truth, your hypothetical man needs forgiveness. But I also went on to show that it is a two way thing and ultimately prove that yhwh needs blood to forgive. He is incapacitated. He cannot help it. He is constrained. To this line of argument, you are mute!

I echoed the same thoughts when you used the seller and exchange example BUT you bolted and argued that 'It is not a simple case of purchase of items'. Because IT SIMPLY does not make sense and defies logic!



You have still succeeded in doing one thing and thing alone - Nothing. To answer your question:

1. No, when man sins, God will punish. But the question is - Must HE require blood/sacrifice in order to forgive?

2. Yes, he does. But it is clearly insane to conceive the idea that the core of those protocols is the reaquirement of blood!

3. That I don't know. But what I do know is that it does not make sense that the primary thing God will require is blood, while the subjective intention of the sinner for true repentance is secondary.



Mr. TenQ you have still not proved anything logically, with all due respect. A man does the unthinkable offence and the next requirement is to require blood of unblemished lamb to forgive? Now some of the follow up questions I have for youare:

a. Since the lamb has been sacrificed, has that stopped man from doing the unthinkable offence?

b. I am aware you argued that the sin is man's nature and even equivated it to dirtiness as part of pig's nature (although, scientific evidence abounds that this is not true. But I will concede to your point), has the sacrificed 'changed' human nature from being sinful?

[There are other parts of the original doctrine I want to explore but not now]

For completeness, so as to avoid the charge of running from your question:

1. I do not know if Shaitan knows he will end up in hell. How am I to know? 2. I do not know too.

This is the beauty of Islam. We consider ourselves helpless in the front of the Almighty. He alone KNOWS everything but we trust is judgment completely, absolutely and without a doubt. But when God makes decisions, he invites us to think AND we can rationalize EVERYTHING he told us to do!

But this is not about islam. The topic is the Gospel Explained for Muslims!



Chapter 11 of Leveticus was talking about clean and unclean foods and it is in that context that God's warning. See 11:46 that said ' these are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves......' Or am I wrong?

So stretching it as you have done is beyond logic to me. God has not told us to be 'without blemish' as you falsely induced.



Thank God you acknowledge answered your question with the word 'notwithstanding'. Again, I am not disputing with you that a sinner needs forgiveness/atonement whether he commits 'heavy' or 'light sin'. No! My argument is a very simple one. Let me identify it for you since you fail to see it:

- Sins are individual and not communal and should be punished individually.
- It is preposterous for yhwh to require blood for atonement for EVERY type of sin, whether heavy or light
- That in any event, needing blood as a condition for salvation is not different from devil worship. It is insane and cannot be justified in logic



Finally, you are not grounded in Islamic theology neither do you know your religion. Unlike the stray advocatejare, we would answer your questions.

1. Correct, if man decides to act against God's teaching, then the greatest offense in the Universe has been committed

2. No HUMAN, living or dead, has ever violated Be and It is. Kun fayakun is in the context of creation and not commands for humans capable of being violated. A similar example is in one of my favourites books - Genesis 1:4 where it was said 'Let there be light'. Is that a commandment capable of being violated, ehn TenQ?

3. Simple answer - No, it has NEVER been violated.

cc: FxMasterz
advocatejare

All this long epistle you just typed shows you didn't understand anything TenQ has been saying on this thread. You're just reading for nothing!
Chai!
This thread is actually for intelligent people. I don't know why it is difficult for someone to understand that sin challenges God's sovereignty because it's the only thing in the whole universe that opposes God's command of 'BE'. TenQ has severally asked you that if God's 'Be' is challenged without being punished, can He still retain His position as God? I myself have given you another analogy to make things simpler for you, so that you'll come to understand that forgiveness is freely given while cleansing from the contamination of sin MUST be done.
It seems we've been speaking to a rock all this while. Nothing you said above disproves anything TenQ has been teaching you on this thread, instead, you're attacking your own made-up notions that are eternally at variance with TenQ's position.

AntiChristian:


Stop dilly-dallying! Show me where the word exists! You're the hypocrite!

I can't quote from your Bible rightly but you can quote from the Qu'ran rightly.

You can quote from my Bible rightly but on the occasion referred to, Mrcodesolo forged a lie. I know how many times you yourself and one Lateef quote the Bible rightly but gave wrong interpretations. Did anyone at those times ever accuse you of quoting out of context? Anyone who replies you only does so to show you the defects in your interpretation and correct your thinking. Did I make a generalization when I addressed the codesolo issue? Codesolo quoted out of context. I never said that's what he always does, or that's what all Muslims do. You were the one who put a generalization tag on my statement!

LegalWolf:


This does not answer my simple questions. Apparently, you know where the interrogation would lead to and that your religion cannot be defended logically. Lol 😂. Again answer my questions and stop beating around the bush for arguments I never made of implied.

PS: I thought you’ll refer me to the suffering servant verses of Isiah when I asked you to provide clear pieces of evidence from the bible. But again, you ran away.

Let me know when you answer my questions. Until then, may the sweet bloooooooooood of Jesus be with you

In the Bible, there are old testament scriptures called Messaianic Prophecies. Isaiah 53 is just one of them. I would want you to read through the chapter if you'll be obliged, but for our occasion, let me bring out a few verses.

Isa.53.5 - But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Jesus the Messaiah fulfilled the above perfectly. He received 39 stripes of cane from the Roman soldiers. Today, when we pray for the sick and say 'By the stripes of the Lord Jesus, you're healed in Jesus name', we see testimonies.
Isa.53.10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: [I]when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,[/I] he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Today, we, who have believed are the seeds of Christ by faith in God. Through Him, we become the children of God on earth.
I've given you the most simple Messaianic scripture in Isaiah because you made a direct request for Isaiah's writings.

FxMasterz:


In the Bible, there are old testament scriptures called Messaianic Prophecies. Isaiah 53 is just one of them. I would want you to read through the chapter if you'll be obliged, but for our occasion, let me bring out a few verses.

Isa.53.5 - But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Jesus the Messaiah fulfilled the above perfectly. He received 39 stripes of cane from the Roman soldiers. Today, when we pray for the sick and say 'By the stripes of the Lord Jesus, you're healed in Jesus name', we see testimonies.
Isa.53.10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: [I]when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin,[/I] he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Today, we, who have believed are the seeds of Christ by faith in God. Through Him, we become the children of God on earth.
I've given you the most simple Messaianic scripture in Isaiah because you made a direct request for Isaiah's writings.

Lol! You all are so so predictable. I haven’t just read the whole Chapter 53 but the preceding chapters 40 to 54. Ill come back to this later on in the afternoon or so

LegalWolf:
Hey TenQ,

How come I missed this? I don't know if I was shadow banned yesterday but I don't get to receive notifications until someone else mentions me and I run through the list. But anyways I have read EVERYTHING you said and I feel like dancing. You know why? You also recognize the illogicality of your argument and how profoundly insane your doctrines are. Let me break it down for you



You bolted! TenQ you ran away and like was (falsely) reported in the bible, you looked up to the sky and said 'Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachtani' to no avail. I clearly answered your question by conceding that in truth, your hypothetical man needs forgiveness. But I also went on to show that it is a two way thing and ultimately prove that yhwh needs blood to forgive. He is incapacitated. He cannot help it. He is constrained. To this line of argument, you are mute!

I echoed the same thoughts when you used the seller and exchange example BUT you bolted and argued that 'It is not a simple case of purchase of items'. Because IT SIMPLY does not make sense and defies logic!



You have still succeeded in doing one thing and thing alone - Nothing. To answer your question:

1. No, when man sins, God will punish. But the question is - Must HE require blood/sacrifice in order to forgive?

2. Yes, he does. But it is clearly insane to conceive the idea that the core of those protocols is the reaquirement of blood!

3. That I don't know. But what I do know is that it does not make sense that the primary thing God will require is blood, while the subjective intention of the sinner for true repentance is secondary.



Mr. TenQ you have still not proved anything logically, with all due respect. A man does the unthinkable offence and the next requirement is to require blood of unblemished lamb to forgive? Now some of the follow up questions I have for youare:

a. Since the lamb has been sacrificed, has that stopped man from doing the unthinkable offence?

b. I am aware you argued that the sin is man's nature and even equivated it to dirtiness as part of pig's nature (although, scientific evidence abounds that this is not true. But I will concede to your point), has the sacrificed 'changed' human nature from being sinful?

[There are other parts of the original doctrine I want to explore but not now]

For completeness, so as to avoid the charge of running from your question:

1. I do not know if Shaitan knows he will end up in hell. How am I to know? 2. I do not know too.

This is the beauty of Islam. We consider ourselves helpless in the front of the Almighty. He alone KNOWS everything but we trust is judgment completely, absolutely and without a doubt. But when God makes decisions, he invites us to think AND we can rationalize EVERYTHING he told us to do!

But this is not about islam. The topic is the Gospel Explained for Muslims!



Chapter 11 of Leveticus was talking about clean and unclean foods and it is in that context that God's warning. See 11:46 that said ' these are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves......' Or am I wrong?

So stretching it as you have done is beyond logic to me. God has not told us to be 'without blemish' as you falsely induced.



Thank God you acknowledge answered your question with the word 'notwithstanding'. Again, I am not disputing with you that a sinner needs forgiveness/atonement whether he commits 'heavy' or 'light sin'. No! My argument is a very simple one. Let me identify it for you since you fail to see it:

- Sins are individual and not communal and should be punished individually.
- It is preposterous for yhwh to require blood for atonement for EVERY type of sin, whether heavy or light
- That in any event, needing blood as a condition for salvation is not different from devil worship. It is insane and cannot be justified in logic



Finally, you are not grounded in Islamic theology neither do you know your religion. Unlike the stray advocatejare, we would answer your questions.

1. Correct, if man decides to act against God's teaching, then the greatest offense in the Universe has been committed

2. No HUMAN, living or dead, has ever violated Be and It is. Kun fayakun is in the context of creation and not commands for humans capable of being violated. A similar example is in one of my favourites books - Genesis 1:4 where it was said 'Let there be light'. Is that a commandment capable of being violated, ehn TenQ?

3. Simple answer - No, it has NEVER been violated.

cc: FxMasterz
advocatejare

Let me further simplify TenQ's analogy of the Judge-son narrative. The cogent point in that analogy is that justice MUST be served.
But before I simplify that, I want you to know that if the Judge has limitless power in relation to the law, he can exonerate his son without doing the justice, and if he does, would he still remain a just judge? To remain a just Judge, he'll have to do same for everyone; and what do you think would eventually happen to such a community?
The analogy does not in anyway directly or fully represent what really transpired. It's an analogy and should be seen as such. The major point here is the justness of the judge.
Let me further simplify this for you.
The principal and teachers of a school have the power to promote the students of the school without them passing or even writing an examination. But if they do so, the integrity of the promotion would remain questionable. The best help the principal of the school can offer the students is to give them exam questions, and supply answers in a bid to follow due process and retain the integrity of the promotion.
Again, this is just an analogy regarding the justness of a system and its judges touching a process. Questions about criminal supply of answers to students are off-board because that part does not apply to the subject matter. The only part that applies is the justness of the process, in other words, the integrity of the promotion because the principal and teachers wanted to help some incapacitated students. The examination MUST be taken even though the principal and teachers have limitless power to help all the students. Man is incapacitated as far as the solution to the sin problem is concerned.
As in the matter of Sin, justice MUST be served. These are spiritual matters that have no physical equivalent. We're just using our limited human vocabulary and experience to explain spiritual truth.
Now, let me as you a question to further buttress what TenQ has been teaching here.
Who needs the examination, the students or the principal?

LegalWolf:
Hey TenQ,
How come I missed this? I don't know if I was shadow banned yesterday but I don't get to receive notifications until someone else mentions me and I run through the list. But anyways I have read EVERYTHING you said and I feel like dancing. You know why? You also recognize the illogicality of your argument and how profoundly insane your doctrines are. Let me break it down for you

You bolted! TenQ you ran away and like was (falsely) reported in the bible, you looked up to the sky and said 'Eloi Eloi Lama Sabachtani' to no avail. I clearly answered your question by conceding that in truth, your hypothetical man needs forgiveness. But I also went on to show that it is a two way thing and ultimately prove that yhwh needs blood to forgive. He is incapacitated. He cannot help it. He is constrained. To this line of argument, you are mute!

I echoed the same thoughts when you used the seller and exchange example BUT you bolted and argued that 'It is not a simple case of purchase of items'. Because IT SIMPLY does not make sense and defies logic!

Just read up again what you've said above and apart from boasting about your foolishness you said NOTHING of value.

You attempted to SHOW that it is God who NEED Blood/Sacrifice and I have shut you down with reasons why the OFFENDER is he who NEED to PAY for his trespasses.

Have you seen NOW that it is Man who NEED to PAY for His SIN and not God who need Sacrifice to Forgive Sin.

LegalWolf:

You have still succeeded in doing one thing and thing alone - Nothing. To answer your question:
1. No, when man sins, God will punish. But the question is - Must HE require blood/sacrifice in order to forgive?

2. Yes, he does. But it is clearly insane to conceive the idea that the core of those protocols is the reaquirement of blood!

3. That I don't know. But what I do know is that it does not make sense that the primary thing God will require is blood, while the subjective intention of the sinner for true repentance is secondary.

I asked you three Questiojns

Mr LegalWolf,
1. When this VIOLATION is committed by man or jinn, do you think GOD will IGNORE it as TRIVIAL ?
2. Do you think God has a STANDARD PROTOCOL for Dealing with Such OFFENCES?
3. Do you think God's PROTOCOL for dealing with such ERRING creations of light effect?

1. It seems you agree that GOD will NOT ignore SIN as it is NOT a TRIVIAL affair
2. It seems you also think God has a STANDARD PROTOCOL for dealing with SIN
3. Here you decided to DO Islamic Taqiyya!
The implication of your response CONTRADICT your response to Question 1. How can God not treat sin as trivial and yet treat His protocol of dealing with the offender with light effect?

You do NOT make any logical sense here because you want to end up TRIVIALISING sin: unfortunately, you can't.

Secondly,
Your question still REVOLVE about WHY God will need BLOOD even though I have explained to you several times that GOD does not need the Blood NOR Sacrifice, it is MAN who need to PAY for His Sin with His LIFE! Did I NOT explain to you that the Blood is more like an EVIDENCE/RECEIPT/TOKEN that LIFE was Taken as an EXCHANGE for LIFE !?

Let me give you scriptures to SHUT your mouth forever
Acts 8:32-33
32 The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: “He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so He did not open His mouth. 33In His humiliation He was deprived of justice. Who can recount His descendants? For His life was removed from the earth.”
John 10:10-11
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it in all its fullness. 11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.

John 10:15
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
1 John 3:16
16 By this we know what love is: Jesus laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
John 10:17
For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

After this, you are free to think WHATEVER you want about this!

Finally,
Just like you Muslims Rejected Allah when he came to you in a shape you didn't like, so you are doing with Gods Method for Atonement of SIN.
Do you think you are REMOTELY QUALIFIED to Help God Design or Determine His METHOD for Absolving a man from the CONSEQUENCE of this Transgression and SIN?

LegalWolf:

Mr. TenQ you have still not proved anything logically, with all due respect. A man does the unthinkable offence and the next requirement is to require blood of unblemished lamb to forgive? Now some of the follow up questions I have for youare:
a. Since the lamb has been sacrificed, has that stopped man from doing the unthinkable offence?
b. I am aware you argued that the sin is man's nature and even equivated it to dirtiness as part of pig's nature (although, scientific evidence abounds that this is not true. But I will concede to your point), has the sacrificed 'changed' human nature from being sinful?

[There are other parts of the original doctrine I want to explore but not now]
For completeness, so as to avoid the charge of running from your question:
1. I do not know if Shaitan knows he will end up in hell. How am I to know? 2. I do not know too.
This is the beauty of Islam. We consider ourselves helpless in the front of the Almighty. He alone KNOWS everything but we trust is judgment completely, absolutely and without a doubt. But when God makes decisions, he invites us to think AND we can rationalize EVERYTHING he told us to do!

But this is not about islam. The topic is the Gospel Explained for Muslims!

On the Question of Satan going to Hell, it seems I understand your Quran better than you
Quran 38:71-85
"(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: 'Truly, I am going to create man from clay. So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him.' So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them, Except Iblees (Satan), he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. (Allaah) said: 'O Iblees (Satan)! What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands. Are you too proud (to fall prostrate to Adam) or are you one of the high exalted?' [Iblees (Satan)] said: 'I am better than he. You created me from fire, and You created him from clay.' (Allaah) said: "Then get out from here; for verily, you are outcast. And verily, My Curse is on you till the Day of Recompense.' [Iblees (Satan)] said: "'My Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the (dead) are resurrected.' (Allaah) said: 'Verily, you are of those allowed respite Till the Day of the time appointed.' [Iblees (Satan)] said: 'By Your Might, then I will surely, mislead them all, Except Your chosen slaves amongst them (i.e. faithful, obedient, true believers of Islamic Monotheism).' (Allaah) said: 'The truth is - and the truth I say * That I will fill Hell with you [Iblees (Satan)] and those of them (mankind) that follow you, together.'"

The Question Again:
Please Educate me: According to Islamic Theology,
1. Does Shaitan know that he would end up in hell fire?
2. Why is it that Shaitan will never Repent UNTIL he is thrown into the Fire or will he finally repent?

Until you Muslims take SIN seriously, you will continue to tell lies as Takiyya and do Mutah and kill people in the name of Mohammed.

You asked TWO Questions

Q a. Since the lamb has been sacrificed, has that stopped man from doing the unthinkable offence?

The Sacrifice of Christ was NEVER to STOP men or from sinning: it is to PAY for the judgement of PERFECTION required of God on the Judgement day because NOT one single human being is SINLESS!
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
1 Peter 1:18-19
Knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.

Q b. I am aware you argued that the sin is man's nature and even equivated it to dirtiness as part of pig's nature (although, scientific evidence abounds that this is not true. But I will concede to your point), has the sacrificed 'changed' human nature from being sinful?

The Sacrifice of Christ is ONLY for those who will RECEIVE it! They Become Spiritually NEW Creatures: sons of God!
1 John 2:1
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate before the Father — Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Cor 5:17
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!

I had told you before, accepting the SACRIFICE of Christ involve TWO things

TenQ:

Didn't you read me on the TWO requirement of Salvation? Here it is again
1. Believing and Accepting the SOLUTION of God for You (the Sacrifice made by God on your behalf)
This is what is called Accepting Jesus as SAVIOUR -FAITH
2. Repentance from SIN and LIVING according to the Rules of the Messiah
This is what is called Accepting Jesus as LORD - REPENTANCE

This is why you hear Christians ask the Question:
Have you accepted Jesus as your LORD and SAVIOUR?

So, my dear. Salvations is not just because you believe it is because you have FAITH (FAITH is Believe Put in ACTION)'

This make you live a life of OBEDIENCE to God: notwithstanding, we have an ADVOCATE for our imperfections as Christians!

LegalWolf:

Chapter 11 of Leveticus was talking about clean and unclean foods and it is in that context that God's warning. See 11:46 that said ' these are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves......' Or am I wrong?
So stretching it as you have done is beyond logic to me. God has not told us to be 'without blemish' as you falsely induced.

Thank God you acknowledge answered your question with the word 'notwithstanding'. Again, I am not disputing with you that a sinner needs forgiveness/atonement whether he commits 'heavy' or 'light sin'. No! My argument is a very simple one. Let me identify it for you since you fail to see it:

- Sins are individual and not communal and should be punished individually.
- It is preposterous for yhwh to require blood for atonement for EVERY type of sin, whether heavy or light
- That in any event, needing blood as a condition for salvation is not different from devil worship. It is insane and cannot be justified in logic

1 Pet 1:16
15But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do, 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
Why wont you miscrew this: for there is NOTHING like it in the Quran.
What has regulations about animals to do with Holiness?

Of course you do not understand Judaism, so I can understand your communal problem. Please read the Taurat and ask question when you are confused.

LegalWolf:

Finally, you are not grounded in Islamic theology neither do you know your religion. Unlike the stray advocatejare, we would answer your questions.
1. Correct, if man decides to act against God's teaching, then the greatest offense in the Universe has been committed
2. No HUMAN, living or dead, has ever violated Be and It is. Kun fayakun is in the context of creation and not commands for humans capable of being violated. A similar example is in one of my favourites books - Genesis 1:4 where it was said 'Let there be light'. Is that a commandment capable of being violated, ehn TenQ?
3. Simple answer - No, it has NEVER been violated.

cc: FxMasterz
advocatejare

I asked
1. God commands Humans "BE HOLY" and man Chose to Act Opposite by Living "UNHOLY": and you think the greatest offence in the Universe has not been committed?
2. Are you saying is that there is NO Consequence for the "BE" or "kun faya kun" to be VIOLATED by ANYONE!?
3. Since the Beginning of TIME, Has the Command "BE" or "kun faya kun" of God EVER Been VIOLATED?


1. Good that you acknowledge that the greates offence has been commited.
2 and 3: You are WRONG
Didnt Islam teach you that Allah Commands ALL the Angels and Iblis to BOW down to ADAM?
Was it a Direct Command?
Did Iblis comply?

You TRULY don't know your Religion:
BE is simply the COMMAND of GOD not just about Creation but by EVERYTHING as they must BEND to His WILL.



You can TRIVIALISE SIN against the UNCREATED EVERLASTING, ALMIGHTY source of ALL things as Allah encourages you to.

LegalWolf:


Lol! You all are so so predictable. I haven’t just read the whole Chapter 53 but the preceding chapters 40 to 54. Ill come back to this later on in the afternoon or so

Lol! I know you've read it, that was already clear when you used the word 'sufering servant' in your question. I also know the Islamic lies that have been told you about the scripture. I deliberately quoted it because I knew it was what you were expecting. Lol. So, bring it on once you're set.

FxMasterz:


Lol! I know you've read it, that was already clear when you used the word 'sufering servant' in your question. I also know the Islamic lies that have been told you about the scripture. I deliberately quoted it because I knew it was what you were expecting. Lol. So, bring it on once you're set.

So what’s the “Islamic lies” told to us?

FxMasterz:


Lol! I know you've read it, that was already clear when you used the word 'sufering servant' in your question. I also know the Islamic lies that have been told you about the scripture. I deliberately quoted it because I knew it was what you were expecting. Lol. So, bring it on once you're set.

We are waiting for your “Islamic” lies ?

Cc: TenQ

LOL!

Like I always tell you, this is not a matter of discussing with your congregants who don't think. You are talking to homo sapiens not australopithecus strays like advocatejare or other members of your congragation. Nah! And writing 'volume of words' would not save you either. A thousands words can't make shi.t look better. Shi.t is Shi.t!

You said so many things but I will break this in part for easy understanding. One by one so we will get to the core points. I think allowing you to talk so much enables you to muddle up the point and go out of radar.

PART ONE

TenQ:

Just read up again what you've said above and apart from boasting about your foolishness you said NOTHING of value.

You attempted to SHOW that it is God who NEED Blood/Sacrifice and I have shut you down with reasons why the OFFENDER is he who NEED to PAY for his trespasses.

Have you seen NOW that it is Man who NEED to PAY for His SIN and not God who need Sacrifice to Forgive Sin . (underlined mine)
........

So tell me, I pray thee, the answer to the following question:

1. Hypothetically, if X agrees with the Message of Jesus but disagree with the idea that god took his blood to atone for his sins, can X receive salvation?

2. Assuming X repents from sin and live according to the rules of the messiah BUT ONBLY did not accept the preposterous idea that the blood of yehoshua is sacrificed for his sins, again can X receive salvation.?

Please keep your answers very short and simple. We will move in parts and it is for you to show us that without the blood, salvation can still be achieved. After this, we will proceed to the next part of the conversation

Thank you

cc: FxMasterz

LegalWolf:


So what’s the “Islamic lies” told to us?

Bro, you are educated, and should know better than this. Kindly hear me out.
The Islamic lies and propaganda are very many. Very many, including propaganda told to block Muslims from believing the Bible or listening to Christians at all.
Apart from the many distortions in the Quran, they've told you that the Bible has been corrupted by Christians just so that you would never trust the book. A propaganda that no sane human being should believe. Let me tell you why I said so.
How could the Bible have been corrupted? The Bible has two parts, the old and new testaments. Both Jews and Christians use the old testament scriptures. If the Old Testament has been corrupted by Christians, how come the Christian corruption and its Jewish uncorrupted counterpart still tally? It is a known fact that Christians and Jews would never sit on the same table to work on religion, let alone sitting together to corrupt a book. Moreso, if a book has been corrupted, there should be the uncorrupted versions to prove the claims. The lies here are so so obvious.
The Bible was not written initially as a religious text. The Old testament was a collection of honest writings detailing Israel's history, laws as well as the individual journals kept by prophets concerning their own prophecies. Everything was written only for the Jewish community, not for the world. So, there's no logical reason for deliberate deception. They wrote in honesty for the next generation of their children.
It was subsequent generations that compiled the writings into books due to the inspirations they derived from them. These books then formed the basis of religious doctrines as we have them today. The original intention was not so. Therefore no reason for deliberate deception. The new testament on the other hand is a collection of letters written to individuals or groups to correct a notion or clarify a misconception. They were never intended for religious use as well. Why should the writers lie?
Now, there could be divergences in records. Everyone wrote Independent of the other, and some of those writers even lived thousands of years apart.
The Bible isn't a perfect book because God used imperfect humans to do the writings. Each person wrote truthfully to the best of his knowledge. However, there have never been contradiction in prophecies which are inspired by the Spirit of God. Historical accounts could be imperfect because men write only what they know, meanwhile, their knowledge may be imperfect.
You can bear me witness that in every event, human accounts do always vary. For example, how did Abubarka Shekau die? One media report said he blew himself off to avoid capture, another said his captors gave him the options of blowing up himself or becoming their subject, yet in another account, we heard he was killed by his captors. The accounts were all made in honesty by those who wrote but human imperfections crept in. However, the most important thing is that Shekau died. We cannot deny this truth on the grounds of the contradictory reports. The same applies to the Bible. Did Jesus die and resurrect? Yes, He did. The imperfect records of His followers about how it happened not withstanding. The truth is that He died and resurrected.
The issue of the Quran is different. Someone from far away Arabia came many millennia later to rewrite the history of a people and their prophets, and people believe him just because he said one God spoke to him. No one was witness to anything he saw or heard. His prohethood was on account of his personal testimony alone. No witness. Everything in the Quran was a one man thing. I laughed when I saw an Islamic text where Mohammed was doing self promotion: "On the last day, people would need someone to help them plead with Allah, then, they'll go to Adam, Adam would then say blah blah blah, then Allah would say to me, then I would do this and that," blah blah blah. What sort of thing is that? Especially for someone who afterwards said he doesn't know his own fate.
What should we say about the many lies and distortions in the book itself? For example, how could Mary the mother of Jesus be the daughter of Amram who lived over 3,000 years before her? Amram had 3 children through his wife Zochebed: Maryam the first born, Aaron the second and Moses the last born.
Mohammed obviously thought that Maryam the daughter of Amram was the same as Mary the mother of Jesus. How could they be the same when Amram was a man who lived and died 3,000+ yrs before Mary in Egypt. Mary on the other hand lived and died in Jerusalem all her life. This and many other historical blunders abound in the Quran. If you happen to be a Jew, won't you feel violated that someone has distorted your history so? He rewrote the history of a whole people single handedly, and Muslims believe that his singular account is correct, while rejecting the account of the people about themselves which have been penned down thousands of years before Mohammed. Whose accounts are supposed to be correct, outsider accounts or accounts from the horse's mouths?
I do not want to keep arguing about religious matters because it's always an endless exercise in futility. There's no need to present truth to someone who has made up his/her mind never to believe anything other than the lies he/she has been told.

LOL! I asked a very simple question. You did everything BUT nothing in answering the question. Like I said earlier in the morning, it is draining arguing with a christian. Not that they do not have brain, but they deliberately close their eyes to the truth. You wrote so much on things outside the scope of the conversation and I would not belabour myself responding to them. I will just ask few questions on things that are relevant.

FxMasterz:

Bro, you are educated, and should know better than this. Kindly hear me out.
The Islamic lies and propaganda are very many. Very many, including propaganda told to block Muslims from believing the Bible or listening to Christians at all.

You and I agree that Jesus is Jewish and he followed the Torah, but how come those knowledgeable in the Torah disagree with Christian teachings? That it is non-reflective of what the Torah has been saying for ages? Why on earth should we prefer 'letters' to clarify the christian doctrines over those of other rabbi who claimed that these teachings are wrong in truth and principle? What gives us comfort that. assuming all the books of the Bible were actually authored by whom they claim wrote them, Apostle Paul for example was a true apostle of God?

FxMasterz:

Apart from the many distortions in the Quran, they've told you that the Bible has been corrupted by Christians just so that you would never trust the book. A propaganda that no sane human being should believe. Let me tell you why I said so.
How could the Bible have been corrupted? The Bible has two parts, the old and new testaments. Both Jews and Christians use the old testament scriptures. If the Old Testament has been corrupted by Christians, how come the Christian corruption and its Jewish uncorrupted counterpart still tally? It is a known fact that Christians and Jews would never sit on the same table to work on religion, let alone sitting together to corrupt a book. Moreso, if a book has been corrupted, there should be the uncorrupted versions to prove the claims. The lies here are so so obvious.
The Bible was not written initially as a religious text. The Old testament was a collection of honest writings detailing Israel's history, laws as well as the individual journals kept by prophets concerning their own prophecies. Everything was written only for the Jewish community, not for the world. So, there's no logical reason for deliberate deception. They wrote in honesty for the next generation of their children.
It was subsequent generations that compiled the writings into books due to the inspirations they derived from them. These books then formed the basis of religious doctrines as we have them today. The original intention was not so. Therefore no reason for deliberate deception. The new testament on the other hand is a collection of letters written to individuals or groups to correct a notion or clarify a misconception. They were never intended for religious use as well. Why should the writers lie?
Now, there could be divergences in records. Everyone wrote Independent of the other, and some of those writers even lived thousands of years apart.

This is interesting. Do you know that the Bible was reproduced in history through copying (or translation) by scribes? And do you know that the more ancient versions of the Bible that we have are quite distinct from the version in which your KJV is based on? Do you discrepancies at some fundamental levels exist? Do you know that the original writer may not lie but later copyist lied by changing the language to suit their narratives?? Are you aware of this part of your history?

Just a yes or no answer suffices please

FxMasterz:

The Bible isn't a perfect book because God used imperfect humans to do the writings. Each person wrote truthfully to the best of his knowledge. However, there have never been contradiction in prophecies which are inspired by the Spirit of God. Historical accounts could be imperfect because men write only what they know, meanwhile, their knowledge may be imperfect.
You can bear me witness that in every event, human accounts do always vary. For example, how did Abubarka Shekau die? One media report said he blew himself off to avoid capture, another said his captors gave him the options of blowing up himself or becoming their subject, yet in another account, we heard he was killed by his captors. The accounts were all made in honesty by those who wrote but human imperfections crept in. However, the most important thing is that Shekau died. We cannot deny this truth on the grounds of the contradictory reports. The same applies to the Bible. Did Jesus die and resurrect? Yes, He did. The imperfect records of His followers about how it happened not withstanding. The truth is that He died and resurrected.

(underlined mine)

This is interesting take and I think go home and smile knowing fully well that the Bible is not a perfect book - a grossly imperfect book incapable of being perfected. Again, thank you for your honesty. But here is the problem - your analogy is flawed and suffers from false quivalence in logic. The different media outlets that reported Shekau's death NEVER claimed that they were inspired by God, or did they?
So if one holy spirit claims to inspire multiple people to write about an event and BUT guided them to write conflicting reports, what gives us confidence that other things the holy spirit inspired - even the core of its teaching - would be true? Does the spirit inspiring the writers an author of cofusion? If it cannot inspire several people to write correctly on minute details, can we trust it to even inspire at all not to talk of inspiring biblical writers to write on core details

FxMasterz:


The issue of the Quran is different. Someone from far away Arabia came many millennia later to rewrite the history of a people and their prophets, and people believe him just because he said one God spoke to him. No one was witness to anything he saw or heard. His prohethood was on account of his personal testimony alone. No witness. Everything in the Quran was a one man thing. I laughed when I saw an Islamic text where Mohammed was doing self promotion: "On the last day, people would need someone to help them plead with Allah, then, they'll go to Adam, Adam would then say blah blah blah, then Allah would say to me, then I would do this and that," blah blah blah. What sort of thing is that? Especially for someone who afterwards said he doesn't know his own fate.
What should we say about the many lies and distortions in the book itself? For example, how could Mary the mother of Jesus be the daughter of Amram who lived over 3,000 years before her? Amram had 3 children through his wife Zochebed: Maryam the first born, Aaron the second and Moses the last born.
Mohammed obviously thought that Maryam the daughter of Amram was the same as Mary the mother of Jesus. How could they be the same when Amram was a man who lived and died 3,000+ yrs before Mary in Egypt. Mary on the other hand lived and died in Jerusalem all her life. This and many other historical blunders abound in the Quran. If you happen to be a Jew, won't you feel violated that someone has distorted your history so? He rewrote the history of a whole people single handedly, and Muslims believe that his singular account is correct, while rejecting the account of the people about themselves which have been penned down thousands of years before Mohammed. Whose accounts are supposed to be correct, outsider accounts or accounts from the horse's mouths?

Unfortunately, the Quran is not in issue here. Last I checked, the title of the topic is the Gospels explained for Muslims. Am I correct?

[quote author=FxMasterz post=120603918]
I do not want to keep arguing about religious matters because it's always an endless exercise in futility. There's no need to present truth to someone who has made up his/her mind never to believe anything other than the lies he/she has been told.

LOL! So you have not made your mind? Or have you? And you have not been brainwashed that someone died for your sins, right? Even amongst Jews that Yehoshua descends from, the idea of Original Sin is complete balderdash. Utter nonsense. But here we are, somewhere from far away sub-Saharan Africa holding to a view that completely riots with logic and common sense!

Please answer my questions
cc: TenQ

LegalWolf:
LOL!

Like I always tell you, this is not a matter of discussing with your congregants who don't think. You are talking to homo sapiens not australopithecus strays like advocatejare or other members of your congragation. Nah! And writing 'volume of words' would not save you either. A thousands words can't make shi.t look better. Shi.t is Shi.t!

You said so many things but I will break this in part for easy understanding. One by one so we will get to the core points. I think allowing you to talk so much enables you to muddle up the point and go out of radar.

PART ONE

Like I said:
The concept of SIN in Christianity and Islam is as different as the West is far from the East!
1. Sin is a SACRILEGE against the SOVEREIGNTY of God HIMSELF.
2. The Judgement is ETERNAL Disconnection and Damnation of the sinner
3. The SINNER therefore CANNOT escape an INFINITE Judgement of God
4. Because of God's special love for Mankind , He provided and EQUIVALENT Substitution for Mankind such that even though God EXECUTES His Judgement, mankind may become FREE
5. A LIFE for a LIFE! A SCAPEGOAT as an Exchange for the Sinner.
This is why the Messiah has to be SINLESS
6. He who Believe and TRUST in God's solution is SAVED. He that rejects it is condemned already!

LegalWolf:

So tell me, I pray thee, the answer to the following question:

1. Hypothetically, if X agrees with the Message of Jesus but disagree with the idea that god took his blood to atone for his sins, can X receive salvation?

CAPITAL NO!
This is a conflicting Question: part of the Message of the Messiah is that He would Lay down His life for His people according to the scripture. How can a person agree with the message of Jesus and deny the same message?
John 10:15
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep

LegalWolf:

2. Assuming X repents from sin and live according to the rules of the messiah BUT ONLY did not accept the preposterous idea that the blood of yehoshua is sacrificed for his sins, again can X receive salvation.?

CAPITAL NO!
Another contradiction: the rules of the Messiah is not for cherry picking!
Isa 53:8:
"He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken."

The Messiah must be killed for the transgression of God's people.

LegalWolf:

Please keep your answers very short and simple. We will move in parts and it is for you to show us that without the blood, salvation can still be achieved. After this, we will proceed to the next part of the conversation

Thank you

cc: FxMasterz

The answers have been short as requested!

LegalWolf:
LOL! I asked a very simple question. You did everything BUT nothing in answering the question. Like I said earlier in the morning, it is draining arguing with a christian. Not that they do not have brain, but they deliberately close their eyes to the truth. You wrote so much on things outside the scope of the conversation and I would not belabour myself responding to them. I will just ask few questions on things that are relevant.




You and I agree that Jesus is Jewish and he followed the Torah, but how come those knowledgeable in the Torah disagree with Christian teachings? That it is non-reflective of what the Torah has been saying for ages? Why on earth should we prefer 'letters' to clarify the christian doctrines over those of other rabbi who claimed that these teachings are wrong in truth and principle? What gives us comfort that. assuming all the books of the Bible were actually authored by whom they claim wrote them, Apostle Paul for example was a true apostle of God?



This is interesting. Do you know that the Bible was reproduced in history through copying (or translation) by scribes? And do you know that the more ancient versions of the Bible that we have are quite distinct from the version in which your KJV is based on? Do you discrepancies at some fundamental levels exist? Do you know that the original writer may not lie but later copyist lied by changing the language to suit their narratives?? Are you aware of this part of your history?

Just a yes or no answer suffices please

(underlined mine)

This is interesting take and I think go home and smile knowing fully well that the Bible is not a perfect book - a grossly imperfect book incapable of being perfected. Again, thank you for your honesty. But here is the problem - your analogy is flawed and suffers from false quivalence in logic. The different media outlets that reported Shekau's death NEVER claimed that they were inspired by God, or did they?
So if one holy spirit claims to inspire multiple people to write about an event and BUT guided them to write conflicting reports, what gives us confidence that other things the holy spirit inspired - even the core of its teaching - would be true? Does the spirit inspiring the writers an author of cofusion? If it cannot inspire several people to write correctly on minute details, can we trust it to even inspire at all not to talk of inspiring biblical writers to write on core details

A. Since you copied me here, tell me which is the Qur'an of Allah
1. The Warsh Qur'an or
2. The Hafs Qur'an
At least both are in Arabic

B. Can you quote for me ANY Hadith by Hafs?

C. The Qur'an was recited in six or seven Arab Dialects,
1. Which dialect are you reciting now
2. Where are the other Qur'an?


This will be all for now!

LegalWolf:
LOL! I asked a very simple question. You did everything BUT nothing in answering the question. Like I said earlier in the morning, it is draining arguing with a christian. Not that they do not have brain, but they deliberately close their eyes to the truth. You wrote so much on things outside the scope of the conversation and I would not belabour myself responding to them. I will just ask few questions on things that are relevant.




You and I agree that Jesus is Jewish and he followed the Torah, but how come those knowledgeable in the Torah disagree with Christian teachings? That it is non-reflective of what the Torah has been saying for ages? Why on earth should we prefer 'letters' to clarify the christian doctrines over those of other rabbi who claimed that these teachings are wrong in truth and principle? What gives us comfort that. assuming all the books of the Bible were actually authored by whom they claim wrote them, Apostle Paul for example was a true apostle of God?



This is interesting. Do you know that the Bible was reproduced in history through copying (or translation) by scribes? And do you know that the more ancient versions of the Bible that we have are quite distinct from the version in which your KJV is based on? Do you discrepancies at some fundamental levels exist? Do you know that the original writer may not lie but later copyist lied by changing the language to suit their narratives?? Are you aware of this part of your history?

Just a yes or no answer suffices please

(underlined mine)

This is interesting take and I think go home and smile knowing fully well that the Bible is not a perfect book - a grossly imperfect book incapable of being perfected. Again, thank you for your honesty. But here is the problem - your analogy is flawed and suffers from false quivalence in logic. The different media outlets that reported Shekau's death NEVER claimed that they were inspired by God, or did they?
So if one holy spirit claims to inspire multiple people to write about an event and BUT guided them to write conflicting reports, what gives us confidence that other things the holy spirit inspired - even the core of its teaching - would be true? Does the spirit inspiring the writers an author of cofusion? If it cannot inspire several people to write correctly on minute details, can we trust it to even inspire at all not to talk of inspiring biblical writers to write on core details

Is it true that The same Jews killed Does this show that the Jews agree with or disagree with Jesus?

You gat no point!

Hahahahah simple!

The conversation is OVER! There is nothing more to say

TenQ:

Like I said:
The concept of SIN in Christianity and Islam is as different as the West is far from the East!
1. Sin is a SACRILEGE against the SOVEREIGNTY of God HIMSELF.
2. The Judgement is ETERNAL Disconnection and Damnation of the sinner
3. The SINNER therefore CANNOT escape an INFINITE Judgement of God
4. Because of God's special love for Mankind , He provided and EQUIVALENT Substitution for Mankind such that even though God EXECUTES His Judgement, mankind may become FREE
5. A LIFE for a LIFE! A SCAPEGOAT as an Exchange for the Sinner.
This is why the Messiah has to be SINLESS
6. He who Believe and TRUST in God's solution is SAVED. He that rejects it is condemned already!

This point is irrelevant. Utter nonsense!

TenQ:



CAPITAL NO!
This is a conflicting Question: part of the Message of the Messiah is that He would Lay down His life for His people according to the scripture. How can a person agree with the message of Jesus and deny the same message?
John 10:15
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep

LOL! TenQ you have no argument. You have no point. My logic is confirmed that BLOOD is a requirement for forgiveness. Your yhwh doesn’t care whether you bow down in true repentance or not. It is the blood that he is interested in MUCH more than anything.

TenQ:


CAPITAL NO!
Another contradiction: the rules of the Messiah is not for cherry picking!
Isa 53:8:
"He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken."

The Messiah must be killed for the transgression of God's people.




The answers have been short as requested!

Hahahaha Lol! Again. Thank you so much for telling us what we know - that yhwh cannot forgive without shedding blood. If you like live as holy as you can, be as faithful to his laws as you can, the moment you don’t believe in that blood and human sacrifice for atonement, you’re damned.


Again Mr. TenQ for your honest conversation. I’ve gotten what I want from part one. Is there a need to move to part 2?

PS: I think the point is pretty clear to an objective mind. For a right thinking human. Not an imbec.ile. The Christian doctrine of god requires human sacrifice to forgive sins, notwithstanding anything to the contrary.

Their doctrine teaches them to that their god really needs blood to forgive. I can’t imagine myself recognizing such an assumed doctrine of a deity worthy of considering. And I know no reasonable human will.

Again thank you for your time TenQ. Muslims understand the “gospel” very well now. Again, is there a need to proceed to part 2?

TenQ:

A. Since you copied me here, tell me which is the Qur'an of Allah
1. The Warsh Qur'an or
2. The Hafs Qur'an
At least both are in Arabic

B. Can you quote for me ANY Hadith by Hafs?

C. The Qur'an was recited in six or seven Arab Dialects,
1. Which dialect are you reciting now
2. Where are the other Qur'an?


This will be all for now!

Lol, the topic is “the Gospels explained for Muslims”, isn’t it?

So why digressing on your own post? Lol 😂

PS: this is what happens when we show the stupidity of your religion. I can go home and dance 💃🏽. One Christian told us that the Bible is imperfect, which is perfectly true. In fact, no truer words have been uttered on this forum than that.

The other told us his god cannot forgive without BLOOD! What a good day to be alive !


cc: FxMasterz

TenQ:

Is it true that The same Jews killed Does this show that the Jews agree with or disagree with Jesus?

You gat no point!

I think your holy ghost as inspired confusion in you like he purportedly did to the authors of the Bible. I’m simple English, what exactly are you saying?

Ehn TenQ 😜

cc: FxMasterz

LegalWolf:
LOL! I asked a very simple question. You did everything BUT nothing in answering the question. Like I said earlier in the morning, it is draining arguing with a christian. Not that they do not have brain, but they deliberately close their eyes to the truth. You wrote so much on things outside the scope of the conversation and I would not belabour myself responding to them. I will just ask few questions on things that are relevant.




You and I agree that Jesus is Jewish and he followed the Torah, but how come those knowledgeable in the Torah disagree with Christian teachings? That it is non-reflective of what the Torah has been saying for ages? Why on earth should we prefer 'letters' to clarify the christian doctrines over those of other rabbi who claimed that these teachings are wrong in truth and principle? What gives us comfort that. assuming all the books of the Bible were actually authored by whom they claim wrote them, Apostle Paul for example was a true apostle of God?



This is interesting. Do you know that the Bible was reproduced in history through copying (or translation) by scribes? And do you know that the more ancient versions of the Bible that we have are quite distinct from the version in which your KJV is based on? Do you discrepancies at some fundamental levels exist? Do you know that the original writer may not lie but later copyist lied by changing the language to suit their narratives?? Are you aware of this part of your history?

Just a yes or no answer suffices please

(underlined mine)

This is interesting take and I think go home and smile knowing fully well that the Bible is not a perfect book - a grossly imperfect book incapable of being perfected. Again, thank you for your honesty. But here is the problem - your analogy is flawed and suffers from false quivalence in logic. The different media outlets that reported Shekau's death NEVER claimed that they were inspired by God, or did they?
So if one holy spirit claims to inspire multiple people to write about an event and BUT guided them to write conflicting reports, what gives us confidence that other things the holy spirit inspired - even the core of its teaching - would be true? Does the spirit inspiring the writers an author of cofusion? If it cannot inspire several people to write correctly on minute details, can we trust it to even inspire at all not to talk of inspiring biblical writers to write on core details

I don't need to answer the questions you poised about Islamic lies about the suffering servant. I'm the one who'll answer them when you tell the lies. Hope you got me right? My aim was to bring you some enlightenments to the flaws of your supposed holy book.
Not all those knowledgeable with the Torah disagree with Christian teachings. Paul and all the disciples of Christ were all knowledgeable on the Torah. There are disagreements within Jewry itself. There are diagreements within Christianity too. There are diagreements even within Islam. Are all Arabs Muslims? Are there not Christian Arabs as well? The disagreements are not the yardsticks for measuring authenticity. We have Rabbis who are Christians today, and we have those who are not. Paul himself was a highly knowledgeable Rabbi in his days before God arrested him.
Bring out the ancient biblical manuscripts that are now considered "quite distinct from the kjv" to use your actual words. We need to have concrete evidence of this assertion. We need to see this distinction.
The Christian letters were not written to clarify the Torah but rather to clarify teachings within Christiendom itself.
Apostle Paul was a true apostle of God. There are several accounts on him in the Bible from those who knew him. Even Peter endorsed of Paul in his Epistles. The encounter Paul had was confirmed by Ananias according to Luke. Ananias was a leading Christian in Damascus in Paul's days. Paul never mentioned him in his own writings but it was this Ananias that received instructions from the Lord Jesus to go meet Paul as soon as he arrived Damascus. Following the instructions of the Lord, Ananias prayed for him to get his eyes restored and be baptised in the Holy Spirit.
Paul never commissioned himself to Christian evangelism. He was commissioned by the church. The 12 Apostles laid hands on him. I don't know what Islam told you guys about Paul but I'm aware that he's the most hated Christian among Muslims.
Paul's apostolic ministry was such a very mighty one. After encountering Jesus, he had to go to Arabia where he de-learned his rabbinical teachings in order to learn Christ. After 3yrs he returned to Jerusalem and presented himself for scrutiny before the apostles who then gave him the right hand of fellowship after ascertaining that his doctrines were the doctrines of Christ. He was one of the most used of God in his days as we can see from the testimonies concerning him. God inspired people to write. That does not mean God dictated what they wrote. He inspired or moved them to write. For instance, God may move me to take up a profession, that does not mean God is the One doing the profession for me. I could be moved of God to take up a profession, yet my imperfections could still reflect in that profession until I master it.
Yeah, the Bible is imperfect. Even the Bible says it. However, the writers were sincere. And that sincerity and honesty is what God blesses. It is that sincerity and honesty that God uses to bless the world. Hope that's clear?
Can we say the same of the Quran. If you give the same type of scrutiny you give the Bible to your Quran, your Quran cannot stand. A supposed book that has the word of God verbatim from heaven should be extremely perfect. You carefully dodged the Mary and Amram allegation of your Quran isn't it? You would close your eyes to the flaws in your own book while you involve yourself in other matters that are higher than you. You speak very arrogantly and yet so ignorantly.
There are flaws in your supposed prophet himself. How can you not see that? Your book itself is a book full of lies, how can you not see that? You refuse to see it because as I said, you've determined not to hear anything else apart from the lies you've been told. That's exactly what you did now, even avoiding the Mary - Amram problem in your Quran. There are several others. Too many to mention. How can you right now prove to me that your Quran were the direct words of God almighty? Go on and and prove it. I'll be waiting.
In doing so, absolve Mohammed from all his character flaws. Give him all the excuses you can. I'll be waiting. Disprove the Amram-Mary allegation and all the others I shall bring up. I'll see how your book measures up.

I don’t mean to be rude, but please try and be succinct in your exposition of issues. You’re not writing a PhD Thesis and overly long essays don’t cut it for anyone (in fact, this piece of advise would help in your professional life)

FxMasterz:


I don't need to answer the questions you poised about Islamic lies about the suffering servant. I'm the one who'll answer them when you tell the lies. Hope you got me right? My aim was to bring you some enlightenments to the flaws of your supposed holy book.
Not all those knowledgeable with the Torah disagree with Christian teachings. Paul and all the disciples of Christ were all knowledgeable on the Torah. There are disagreements within Jewry itself. There are diagreements within Christianity too. There are diagreements even within Islam. Are all Arabs Muslims? Are there not Christian Arabs as well? The disagreements are not the yardsticks for measuring authenticity. We have Rabbis who are Christians today, and we have those who are not. Paul himself was a highly knowledgeable Rabbi in his days before God arrested him.

This is false. The only issue with your logic is that the Rabbi or disagreement in Judaism and Islam don’t claim to be inspired by God, or do they?

All Christian letters and gospels are said to be inspired, supposedly by Holy Ghost, yet they differ. And you expect us to believe you?

FxMasterz:


Bring out the ancient biblical manuscripts that are now considered "quite distinct from the kjv" to use your actual words. We need to have concrete evidence of this assertion. We need to see this distinction.

Have you heard of the Dead Sea scrolls? Do you know about other ancient manuscripts held in various museums older than the ones the Bible was derived from?

Just surf online and you’ll see the differences between the original text and what we have. Even when you read Bible gateway translation of the Bible, do you know what certain footnotes symbolises?

FxMasterz:


The Christian letters were not written to clarify the Torah but rather to clarify teachings within Christiendom itself.
Apostle Paul was a true apostle of God. There are several accounts on him in the Bible from those who knew him. Even Peter endorsed of Paul in his Epistles. The encounter Paul had was confirmed by Ananias according to Luke. Ananias was a leading Christian in Damascus in Paul's days. Paul never mentioned him in his own writings but it was this Ananias that received instructions from the Lord Jesus to go meet Paul as soon as he arrived Damascus. Following the instructions of the Lord, Ananias prayed for him to get his eyes restored and be baptised in the Holy Spirit.
Paul never commissioned himself to Christian evangelism. He was commissioned by the church. The 12 Apostles laid hands on him. I don't know what Islam told you guys about Paul but I'm aware that he's the most hated Christian among Muslims.
Paul's apostolic ministry was such a very mighty one. After encountering Jesus, he had to go to Arabia where he de-learned his rabbinical teachings in order to learn Christ. After 3yrs he returned to Jerusalem and presented himself for scrutiny before the apostles who then gave him the right hand of fellowship after ascertaining that his doctrines were the doctrines of Christ. He was one of the most used of God in his days as we can see from the testimonies concerning him. God inspired people to write. That does not mean God dictated what they wrote. He inspired or moved them to write. For instance, God may move me to take up a profession, that does not mean God is the One doing the profession for me. I could be moved of God to take up a profession, yet my imperfections could still reflect in that profession until I master it.
Yeah, the Bible is imperfect. Even the Bible says it. However, the writers were sincere. And that sincerity and honesty is what God blesses. It is that sincerity and honesty that God uses to bless the world. Hope that's clear?

This epistle to legalwolf does not cut it for me. What exactly do you aim to achieve with this?

FxMasterz:


Can we say the same of the Quran. If you give the same type of scrutiny you give the Bible to your Quran, your Quran cannot stand. A supposed book that has the word of God verbatim from heaven should be extremely perfect. You carefully dodged the Mary and Amram allegation of your Quran isn't it? You would close your eyes to the flaws in your own book while you involve yourself in other matters that are higher than you. You speak very arrogantly and yet so ignorantly.
There are flaws in your supposed prophet himself. How can you not see that? Your book itself is a book full of lies, how can you not see that? You refuse to see it because as I said, you've determined not to hear anything else apart from the lies you've been told. That's exactly what you did now, even avoiding the Mary - Amram problem in your Quran. There are several others. Too many to mention. How can you right now prove to me that your Quran were the direct words of God almighty? Go on and and prove it. I'll be waiting.
In doing so, absolve Mohammed from all his character flaws. Give him all the excuses you can. I'll be waiting. Disprove the Amram-Mary allegation and all the others I shall bring up. I'll see how your book measures up.

Again, the Quran is not in issue. And neither is the story of the Prophet or anything. You won’t deflect issues by raising questions on the Quran. The topic is gospel explained for Muslims and not the Quran explained for Christians. So please don’t lose focus and let us deal with inherently logical implication of the imperfect book called bible. How difficult is it to stick to issues?

Are you scared that you’ve been bursted?

LegalWolf:


I think your holy ghost as inspired confusion in you like he purportedly did to the authors of the Bible. I’m simple English, what exactly are you saying?

Ehn TenQ 😜

cc: FxMasterz

If you don't understand simple English, too bad!

LegalWolf:


Lol, the topic is “the Gospels explained for Muslims”, isn’t it?

So why digressing on your own post? Lol 😂

PS: this is what happens when we show the stupidity of your religion. I can go home and dance 💃🏽. One Christian told us that the Bible is imperfect, which is perfectly true. In fact, no truer words have been uttered on this forum than that.

The other told us his god cannot forgive without BLOOD! What a good day to be alive !


cc: FxMasterz

You copied me on a different train of conversation that didn't involve me. Based on that I asked my questions .

Please respond:

A. Since you copied me here, tell me which is the Qur'an of Allah
1. The Warsh Qur'an or
2. The Hafs Qur'an
At least both are in Arabic

B. Can you quote for me ANY Hadith by Hafs?

C. The Qur'an was recited in six or seven Arab Dialects,
1. Which dialect are you reciting now
2. Where are the other Qur'an?


This will be all for now!

LegalWolf:
Hahahahah simple!

The conversation is OVER! There is nothing more to say




This point is irrelevant. Utter nonsense!



LOL! TenQ you have no argument. You have no point. My logic is confirmed that BLOOD is a requirement for forgiveness. Your yhwh doesn’t care whether you bow down in true repentance or not. It is the blood that he is interested in MUCH more than anything.



Hahahaha Lol! Again. Thank you so much for telling us what we know - that yhwh cannot forgive without shedding blood. If you like live as holy as you can, be as faithful to his laws as you can, the moment you don’t believe in that blood and human sacrifice for atonement, you’re damned.


Again Mr. TenQ for your honest conversation. I’ve gotten what I want from part one. Is there a need to move to part 2?

PS: I think the point is pretty clear to an objective mind. For a right thinking human. Not an imbec.ile. The Christian doctrine of god requires human sacrifice to forgive sins, notwithstanding anything to the contrary.

Their doctrine teaches them to that their god really needs blood to forgive. I can’t imagine myself recognizing such an assumed doctrine of a deity worthy of considering. And I know no reasonable human will.

Again thank you for your time TenQ. Muslims understand the “gospel” very well now. Again, is there a need to proceed to part 2?

You never cease to amuse me!
After saying nothing of worth, you arrived at a delusion!?

SMH!

Since you are done, can I ask you one question?

LegalWolf,
If I have just 5 minutes more to live on this earth, and I want to be SAVED, how will you help me attain salvation by ISLAM?