naijaking1:

I don't agree with everything he said, but another point that struck me was that 'all attempts to present a balanced account of the jewish holocaust was being blocked'.--- that got me thinking and wondering, why?

what is the "balanced account of the jewish holocaust that is being blocked"? The Iranian account that it was a myth??

This is one thing that gets me thinking and wondering why . . . what has Iran got to do with the holocaust? Why are muslims so concerned?

naijaking1:

@nwando

Your link brings a very interesting read.

Nobody condones beastiality, pedophilia, and other risky sexual behaviours.
I can understand the apprehension, because it's was described by Khomeni- a shiite muslim leader who died a long time ago.

Note also that these aberrent sexual behaviours are not limited to shiite muslims or muslims in general.

We all know that it exists in other cultures, remote from Iran.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was that sexual text written in the Quoran also?

I ask this question, because as Christians(or Jews), we should never fall into the trap of judging all muslims by the action or writtings of just a few muslims.

The Khomeni who wrote the book is dead?

Now we have another Kh[b]a[/b]meni- as a spritual head of Iranian shiites.

The question I have is, how do you make the huge quantum leap in logic to say that Yar'dua should not be seen with Ahmadinejad- the president of Iran, because he takes orders from Khameni- the spritual head of Iran, who succeeded two people that succeeded the original Khomeni whose despicable writtings you have been so gracious to share with us?
What has one person got to do directly with another?

I have not seen any evidence to show that Ahmadinajad preaches or tolerates any of the devious sexual behaviours you listed.

I watched his Columbia university presentation in details, and the sad truth is that very few people could maintain their composure after being so insulted and humiliated by the university president's "opening remark"

I don't agree with everything he said, but another point that struck me was that 'all attempts to present a balanced account of the jewish holocaust was being blocked'.--- that got me thinking and wondering, why?

Since when does a man's ability to remain maintain composure after being insulted and humiliated become a measure of the man's morality?? @Naijaking


About your last WHY about the Holocaust, there is now a library for people like you with questions. I believe you should please log on to do some research to get the answers you seek on the issue.

http://www.ushmm.org/


MY QUOTE OF THE DAY
We live in the information age. I don't agree with the claim that IGNORANCE IS BLISS cause we see where it set us in africa and were the rest of the world is in comparison. We still have the holocausts in Africa why ?? cause we continually cling to ignorance and denial .

There is no doubt that the Jews suffered a great deal under Hitler, just as the black people suffered during slave trade, ans so on.

There are many accounts of the slave trade written from every point of view, ie black slaves, black Africans, White slave merchants, white missionaries, etc.

Why is there a problem hearing the side who say that the jewish holocaust did not actually happen as it's been acknowledged?

Most curious minds would love to hear all the arguments and then eliminate the fallacies.

If all arguments or research into the unfortunate holocaust is blocked, then it simply leaves room for more questions.

I don't know exactly why the Iraninans want to disprove the holocaust, but we can't stop them by blocking debate on the issue--- it will simply linger- forever.

naijaking1:

Why is there a problem hearing the side who say that the jewish holocaust did not actually happen as it's been acknowledged?

There is no problem when it comes to understanding what really went on during the holocaust. Kobojunkie has already made a good point, there are countless libraries where you can research what happened, there are still living survivors whose stories are still being told.
Germans have no hidden anything from the public neither have the Jews.

There is no ambiguity about the holocaust, the only grey areas exist in the minds of those with ulterior motives for denying the existence of the holocaust. Besides muslims who else is asking questions?

naijaking1:

Most curious minds would love to hear all the arguments and then eliminate the fallacies.

"Most curious minds" are busy in libraries doing research not relying on conspiracy theories from Iran.

naijaking1:

If all arguments or research into the unfortunate holocaust is blocked, then it simply leaves room for more questions.

Noting has been blocked. You are free to travel to Germany to go take a look at the gas chambers.

naijaking1:

I don't know exactly why the Iraninans want to disprove the holocaust, but we can't stop them by blocking debate on the issue--- it will simply linger- forever.

Again, no one is "blocking any debate". Why are the Iranians interested in a debate? They are neither Jews nor Germans.
Only muslims are busy asking irrelevant questions about the holocaust, it is clear they are not asking because they are interested in "research".

naijaking1:

There is no doubt that the Jews suffered a great deal under Hitler, just as the black people suffered during slave trade, ans so on.

There are many accounts of the slave trade written from every point of view, ie black slaves, black Africans, White slave merchants, white missionaries, etc.

Why is there a problem hearing the side who say that the jewish holocaust did not actually happen as it's been acknowledged?

Most curious minds would love to hear all the arguments and then eliminate the fallacies.

If all arguments or research into the unfortunate holocaust is blocked, then it simply leaves room for more questions.

I don't know exactly why the Iraninans want to disprove the holocaust, but we can't stop them by blocking debate on the issue--- it will simply linger- forever.

First ERROR,  comparing Slave Trade with the Holocaust. That is a HUGE ERROR THERE, 

Why is there a problem hearing the side who say that the jewish holocaust did not actually happen as it's been acknowledged?

I would think there would be a problem hearing the side of those who think that people in Nigeria can not communicate with those in America in a matter of seconds.  The same way we would have a problem hearing the side of a person who claims the sun does not exist. There are things you can argue and there are some things that you would be seen as an ignoramus if you try to argue it and that happens to be one of them. The world knew what happened,
a) even the very germans who had it happen on their own soil do not deny it.
b) The Nazi's who were incriminated by the reports do not deny it happened,
c) the jews and the gypsies who lost their families during the time do not deny it.
d) Even the news networks like the BBC that had journalists who actually saw it do not deny it.
e) The pope who lived during that time did not deny it happened
f) even countries in Europe have to this day records of their own citizens whom they had to give up to the germans to be executed cause they found their hands tied ( HAVE YOU BEEN TO AMSTERDAM?? There is a memorial there for all the people who died and voice recordings too for you to listen to)


There are movies and pictures and sound bytes confirming these happenings. of all the events in history, this happens to be one most documented of all. There are thousands of videos, pictures, records in the writings of all people involved. Country records, you name it.

So for someone to come out from nowhere to call it all a hoax and then not show anything for prove but words that mean nothing. I would think even you would see how that would be brushed aside as rubbish@ Naijaking

CHECK OUT THE HOLOCAUST MUSEUM http://www.ushmm.org/

Kobojunkie:


Since when does a man's ability to remain maintain composure after being insulted and humiliated become a measure of the man's morality?? @Naijaking

About your last WHY about the Holocaust, there is now a library for people like you with questions. I believe you should please log on to do some research to get the answers you seek on the issue.

http://www.ushmm.org/


MY QUOTE OF THE DAY
We live in the information age. I don't agree with the claim that IGNORANCE IS BLISS cause we see where it set us in africa and were the rest of the world is in comparison. We still have the holocausts in Africa why ?? cause we continually cling to ignorance and denial .

I would add confusion to your wonderful quotation.

You know better than put words in my mouth, there is no where I said that Ahmanidaj's composure in the face of being insulted by Columbia You. president amounted to a measure of his morality.--- don't get carried away!

Your link to ushmm is wonderful, but could have been better if I was also able to compare their information with those from around the world, ie Iran, France, Germany, Israel, Chile, Saudi Arabia.

Let me make up my mind. No need to shove one sided information down anyone's throat-- that's my point.

@ Naijaking, is it possible to crosscheck information from Ghana, Liberia, Pakistan and India before you believe that the Nigerian civil war actually took place?

Why are you interested in crosschecking facts from Saudi Arabia and Iran? Are they Jews or Germans? Where they part of the allied forces who took down Hitler and rescued the Jews?

No one is pushing facts down your throat, your local library is not too far away.

The slave trade was a larger holocaust compared to the Jewish holcaust, neverthelss similar terminologies have been applied to both.

I think the Arabs and the Iranians may have a vested interest in presenting a different take on the Jewish holocaust, because as Ahmadinejad said, it formed one of the basis for the creation and legitimization of Israel.

I have not seen any evidence to show that Ahmadinajad preaches or tolerates any of the devious sexual behaviours you listed.

I watched his Columbia university presentation in details, and the sad truth is that very few people could maintain their composure after being so insulted and humiliated by the university president's "opening remark"

That is where I get my line from.

Note: I did not shove anything down your throat was basically helping you with information which you requested.

I don't agree with everything he said, but another point that struck me was that 'all attempts to present a balanced account of the jewish holocaust was being blocked'.--- that got me thinking and wondering, why?

naijaking1:

The slave trade was a larger holocaust compared to the Jewish holcaust, neverthelss similar terminologies have been applied to both.

I think the Arabs and the Iranians may have a vested interest in presenting a different take on the Jewish holocaust, because as Ahmadinejad said, it formed one of the basis for the creation and legitimization of Israel.

The Slave Trade WAS NEVER HOLOCAUST. It was simply Slave Trade and continues to this day in the very Country and Land you come from, Nigeria, Africa. Isreal was not formed CAUSE of the Holocaust. I believe we have already gone over the history of the area in another thread already. Holocaust happened in the 1940's. Isreal got the land in 1922.

naijaking1:

I think the Arabs and the Iranians may have a vested interest in presenting a different take on the Jewish holocaust, because as Ahmadinejad said, it formed one of the basis for the creation and legitimization of Israel.

The Balfour declaration to legitimize Isreal took place in 1922, Hitler wasnt even president of Germany then.

Lets even assume the above quote is correct, why would the arabs and Iranians be interested in the formation of the Isreali state? Iran shares NO borders with Isreal, Iranians are NOT palestinians, Isreal is one of the very few countries that offer full citizenship rights to palestinians living in Isreal, no such rights exist in the very arab countries crying the loudest on behalf of the palestinians - Iran, Syria, Jordan e.t.c.

davidylan:

@ Naijaking, is it possible to crosscheck information from Ghana, Liberia, Pakistan and India before you believe that the Nigerian civil war actually took place?

Why are you interested in crosschecking facts from Saudi Arabia and Iran? Are they Jews or Germans? Where they part of the allied forces who took down Hitler and rescued the Jews?

No one is pushing facts down your throat, your local library is not too far away.

You loose me talking about Ghana, etc. My reference to Saudi Arabia, France, and so on was meant to show that mesuem sources from other countries would compliment the one here in US.

Again, these countries all have Jewish citizens.

There is no question that there were survivors of the holocaust, with ID numbers to show for it, the gas chambers, and so on; every war has 2 sides.

The more this debts lasts, the more curious people are going to become.

naijaking1:

You loose me talking about Ghana, etc. My reference to Saudi Arabia, France, and so on was meant to show that mesuem sources from other countries would compliment the one here in US.

Again, these countries all have Jewish citizens.

There is no question that there were survivors of the holocaust, with ID numbers to show for it, the gas chambers, and so on; every war has 2 sides.

The more this debts lasts, the more curious people are going to become.

What debts are you speaking of??

How about we crosscheck with Iran, Russia, Germany, Iraq, China, Zambia and even Ghana,  yes,  Ghana,  there are jews living in all those countries as well @Naijaking

1. Iran and other arab nations have a right to concern themselves with the holocaust because Palestinians are being killed and their lands seized because of what happened in Germany and that is not right.

2. Holocaust happened int the 1940s and the State of Israel was created in 1948, there is no point bringing in 1922 as if Israel existed as a state prior to 1948.

Stop twisting information and try to comprehend first, haba!

@Kobojunkie
I disagree that the arrest, capture, and depopulation of Africans from more 350 million before Vasco de gama sailed around the cape and went home to alert his people to the late 19th century when the Europeans effectively carved up Africa and controlled it with less than 100 million people does not constitute a holocaust. The difference in the number of people lost to the Jewish and African holocaust is also huge

I don't know what books you've been reading, but the depopulation of black Africans is one classic example of holocaust cited in many history texts.

naijaking1:

You loose me talking about Ghana, etc. My reference to Saudi Arabia, France, and so on was meant to show that mesuem sources from other countries would compliment the one here in US.

I would have assumed the most important museums would be those in Germany and Isreal and not Saudi Arabia. Do we need to check Ghanaian museums for proof of the Nigerian civil war since they also have a sizeable Nigerian population?

naijaking1:

Again, these countries all have Jewish citizens.

In Saudi Arabia? Iran has only a minority Jewish population, millions of Jews were expelled from Arab countries after 1948.

naijaking1:

There is no question that there were survivors of the holocaust, with ID numbers to show for it, the gas chambers, and so on; every war has 2 sides.

The logical 2 sides would be Germany and Isreal. nothing to do with Iran here.

naijaking1:

The more this debts lasts, the more curious people are going to become.

Debts to who? Does Isreal owe Iran a debt for the holocaust?

naijaking1:

@Kobojunkie
I disagree that the arrest, capture, and depopulation of Africans from more 350 million before Vasco de gama sailed around the cape and went home to alert his people to the late 19th century when the Europeans effectively carved up Africa and controlled it with less than 100 million people does not constitute a holocaust. The difference in the number of people lost to the Jewish and African holocaust is also huge

I don't know what books you've been reading, but the depopulation of black Africans is one classic example of holocaust cited in many history texts.

hol·o·caust (hl-kôst, hl-)
n.
1. Great destruction resulting in the extensive loss of life, especially by fire.

holocaust - an act of mass destruction and loss of life (especially in war or by fire);

slav·er·y (slv-r, slvr)
n. pl. slav·er·ies
1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or household.
2.
a. The practice of owning slaves.
b. A mode of production in which slaves constitute the principal work force.
3. The condition of being subject or addicted to a specified influence.
4. A condition of hard work and subjection: wage slavery.


Regardless of your stand on this, I still say HOLOCAUST IS NOT SAME AS SLAVERY and SLAVERY IS NOT SAME AS HOLOCAUST unless you are trying to REDEFINE THE WORDS Here. IN which case, you can always go ahead and duke that one out with WebSter in your own time. Making Claims does not Facts make.

I suggest you pick up a dictionary while you are reading your books there so you can understand the difference. If you want to claim slavery is holocaust then you should also realize that even right now the holocaust is happening in your own backyard (slavery) so before you decide to turn this into a BLAME THE EUROPEANS ALONE FOR SLAVERY fest, please remove the moath still in your own people's eye in the year 2007.

Afam:

1. Iran and other arab nations have a right to concern themselves with the holocaust because Palestinians are being killed and their lands seized because of what happened in Germany and that is not right.

This issue has been more than over flogged its bothering on the ridiculous that people just cant get things right. the holocaust had NO bearing to the formation of Isreal. The plan for Isreal's formation was hatched as far back as 1922.

Afam:

2. Holocaust happened int the 1940s and the State of Israel was created in 1948, there is no point bringing in 1922 as if Israel existed as a state prior to 1948.

Stop twisting information and try to comprehend first, haba!

It is clear who needs to try to comprehend facts first before struggling to appear intelligent. Isreal was born in 1948 but the plan was already in the pipeline in 1922 when the western part of the Jordan was carved out and given to King Abdullah as the region of transjordan (eventually became Jordan). The formation of Isreal was delayed because of the problem that is still persisting today, Arabs dont want Isreal on soil they consider muslim.

The fact that Isreal has existed well before 1922 is too elementary to even attempt to debate.

Kobojunkie:

Making Claims does not Facts make.

Quote of the day for me.

Do you mind stop replying him?? @DavidLyan. I have only been on this thread 4 weeks now and I have come to understand that as soon as he joins a thread all logic goes out the window and personal attacks start. He just attacked me earlier on another thread and I ran this way to avoid having to deal with him and he is here again. Do you mind completely ignoring him please. Sometimes, you already know which way things willl go with the presence of one and you just avoid setting him off the much you can. OH how I wish there was an ignore button for forums, and we can all ignore the childish behaviour and stick to the intelligent conversations and discussions once and for all.

Kobojunkie:

What debts are you speaking of??

How about we crosscheck with Iran, Russia, Germany, Iraq, China, Zambia and even Ghana,  yes,  Ghana,  there are jews living in all those countries as well @Naijaking

I'm speaking about the debate involving getting information about the Jewish holocaust from around the world and not just from the heavily biased US source.

Iraq, Ghana, Zambia, doen't matter, the more the better, but not just from US and Israel alone--- that's my point. Let Iranians, Arabs, Israelis, whoever, do more research into the holocaust story, if they chose, don't stop them performing an academic work if they choose.

The fact that every country has a Jewish population is another reason why their request for more information or research must be honored.

naijaking1:

I'm speaking about the debate involving getting information about the Jewish holocaust from around the world and not just from the heavily biased US source.

Iraq, Ghana, Zambia, doen't matter, the more the better, but not just from US and Israel alone--- that's my point. Let Iranians, Arabs, Israelis, whoever, do more research into the holocaust story, if they chose, don't stop them performing an academic work if they choose.

The fact that every country has a Jewish population is another reason why their request for more information or research must be honored.

You get your education and most all you have from this so called heavily biased US but suddenly you do not believe the country is a credible source for the Holocaust?? Anyways, the Holocaust museum is simply located in the United States but is not associated with the United States government in any way. Most of the surviving jews moved to america and America happens to be the one country where they decided to locate the one big museum they have. Just as the gugenheim being in the US does not mean all the artifacts in there have to do with the United States government in anyway. If you take time to actually read up on information on the site, you would see that it is not affiliated with the United States government in any way.

@Davidyln

That was supposed to be debate, and not debt.

@ kobojunkie, your advice is taken.

naijaking1:

I'm speaking about the debate involving getting information about the Jewish holocaust from around the world and not just from the heavily biased US source.

Sorry, i know this was addressed to Kobojunkie but allow me to come in a bit here. If indeed the US is biased, what about French, German and Isreali sources? Are they all biased too that we have to go seeking information from a party that was not involved in the holocaust at all?

Should we also come get information about the holocaust from nigeria considering Iran may be a biased source too? What about trying the Togolese national library?

naijaking1:

Iraq, Ghana, Zambia, doen't matter, the more the better, but not just from US and Israel alone--- that's my point. Let Iranians, Arabs, Israelis, whoever, do more research into the holocaust story, if they chose, don't stop them performing an academic work if they choose.

Trust me if Arab professors want to spend the next 200yrs "researching" the validity of the holocaust no one will be bothered. Here is the question you have refused to answer: what is the motive behind the Iranian and arab obsession with the holocaust?

naijaking1:

The fact that every country has a Jewish population is another reason why their request for more information or research must be honored.

Are they trying to "request for more information or research" on behalf of the tiny minority of Jews in their country? There are no jews at all in Saudi Arabia, on what grounds would they be seeking "information"?

I may be a sucker for free and unrestricted information. If anybody wants more research into the holcaust, they should be welcome.

The official estimate is about 6.5 million Jews killed by Hitler, some people have lower numbers, but one of my friends here believe it's more than 10 million.

Only unrestricted research and healthy debate would settle this dispute.

I have not refused to answer why Iranians and Arabs want to research the holocaust, because like I said before, I don't know, and I really don't care.

As much as an event is as real and in public domain as this issue is, there is no reason why someone should even question why another wants to know more about the topic in question.

Got to go attend to the pager guys. Good night.

@ naijaking, trust me even the Jews would be happy to have people interested in "research and healthy debate" on the holocaust that will help ensure no other race has to go through that again.

The question i still put to you that you have yet to answer is this: why the sudden arab/muslim interest in "research" over the holocaust? What is it meant to address? To ascertain how many actually died in the holocaust or to prove that it was all a myth?

Even the Germans who have way more than anyone else to gain if indeed the holocaust turned out to be a myth are not crying. why is Iran crying more than the jews over the holocaust?

naijaking1:

I have not refused to answer why Iranians and Arabs want to research the holocaust, because like I said before, I don't know, and I really don't care.

As much as an event is as real and in public domain as this issue is, there is no reason why someone should even question why another wants to know more about the topic in question.

Got to go attend to the pager guys. Good night.

If only Iranians were more interested in the revolution of 1979, the 8yr war of attrition with Iraq that took more than a million Iranian lives and the curtailing of individual freedoms under ahmedinejad.

This is one huge case of misplaced priorities.

naijaking1:

I may be a sucker for free and unrestricted information. If anybody wants more research into the holcaust, they should be welcome.

The official estimate is about 6.5 million Jews killed by Hitler, some people have lower numbers, but one of my friends here believe it's more than 10 million.

Only unrestricted research and healthy debate would settle this dispute.

I have NEVER BEEN RESTRICTED in any way in my researching the Holocaust and I have never come up to anyone who has claimed to have been hindered in anyway by the USA or even Germany in their researching of the same subject @Naijaking. Like I mentioned earlier, If you want to get information, go to countries in Europe and even to Germany to get all the information you need about the holocaust and what ever if you are afraid the museum in the USA might taint you in some way with false information. There were  millions of  people killed during the Holocaust. Those killed were not just the jews. Millions of Gypies/homosexuals and even retards/metally ill people were killed during the same time. The Millions that were killed were taken from all over Europe.

David, Kobo
Very nice job indeed. I think all has been said already.
Keep it up

Kobojunkie:

Do you mind stop replying him?? @DavidLyan. I have only been on this thread 4 weeks now and I have come to understand that as soon as he joins a thread all logic goes out the window and personal attacks start. He just attacked me earlier on another thread and I ran this way to avoid having to deal with him and he is here again. Do you mind completely ignoring him please. Sometimes, you already know which way things willl go with the presence of one and you just avoid setting him off the much you can. OH how I wish there was an ignore button for forums, and we can all ignore the childish behaviour and stick to the intelligent conversations and discussions once and for all.

I'm not sure what to make of this.

I maybe wrong, but I thought that people are supposed discuss/debate/argue/educate each other in this forum without any type of 'gang-up' Childish personal attacks are not good, but sometime has been exhibited by both sides.

It's ok to disagree with someone, but, I don't think you should muzzle/shut off an opposing voice.

I consider it a priviledge to have someone to debate with on every issue, because from such debate comes self-conversion, or reinforcement of your position, or even conversion of your opponent.

Debate is a good thing, there is no need to form a "trade union" against anyone, unless you want to own the thread all by yourself, and end up with the false impression that the whole world agrees with you, when in reality they don't.

If you begin to form alliances against certain people, then expect that certain people will also begin to form alliances against you. By the time you know it people are so deeply entrenched in their positions(rightly or wrongly) without any opportunity to hear an opposing voice.

Opposition is a blessing!

It's always a welcome relief when someone shares our position, and helps with our argument, but the truth remains that is not always the case in real life, and shouldn't be on this forum.

Kobojunkie, you were doing pretty well against Afam, and Davidyln was also strong, so I don't even understand the need to block off Afam, or form some kind alliance against him or anybody who disagrees with you---- maybe I'm missing something?

naijaking1:

Kobojunkie, you were doing pretty well against Afam, and Davidyln was also strong, so I don't even understand the need to block off Afam, or form some kind alliance against him or anybody who disagrees with you---- maybe I'm missing something?

You got it all wrong.
1. this is no alliance of the like-minded vs the opposition.
2. If all Afam did was disagree with us on principle (just like you) no one would be bothered about blocking him off. That is the beauty of debate.

However Afam has shown himself NOT to be interested in any form of debate but prefers to roam all over the place seeking any tiny avenue to latch unto someone else's posts just to have an opportunity to slander and maliciously spread false information about those who have exposed his allergy for facts, his over-inflated ego and his inability to handle a proper debate.

there is only so much you can take until you decide hitting the ignore button will be in your best interest.

I hear you, bro.