I was thinking the thread was interesting but now people are taking it out on each other - maybe these people are friends or even nephews and uncles in real life, who knows. nyway, it is Ok anyway to disagree with one another.

My only take is that each man and woman should go and to take proper cae of their pikin.

Theblessed: quote author=Nebeuwa]There seems to be a wave of criminality that is impacting some British of Nigerian descent. Everyday, we hear news of another young Nigerian either committing a crime, or being the victim of crime in the United Kingdom. What I want to know is what is the problem?

The same cannot be said of Nigerians who live in the United States. It is very rare that you hear about a Nigerian in the United States being involved in a gang. It is so rare, that I have never heard of such, even though I know it probably does exist. Are there any differences between the Nigerians in the United States and Nigerians in the United Kingdom?

I have my own hypothesis, in which Nigerians in American want to differentiate themselves from African Americans who are often seen at the lower levels of United State society, but Nigerians in the United Kingdom do not have that luxury to differentiate themselves from other black groups in the UK since they are all recent arrivals.

Another hypothesis that I have is that there are more opportunities for Nigerians born in the United States than Nigerians born in the United Kingdom. The U.S. is more of a merit based society, even though it is being eroded compared to the United Kingdom when it depends on not only your social class, but also your pedigree.

Are there any other reasons that you can think of?


[size=16pt][b] First and foremost, you're biased and have no clue of what you're talking about here and we know where your loyalty lies.

Also, you can not compare America with the UK e.g. in History, Land space or population. America is hundred times larger than Uk in land and people. Also, in History, she's relatively a young Society compared with the Uk - UK has been going on for at least, since 10th Century.

America is Country built by the Slaves where as Uk is a Country developed with Slave Money. Blacks did not built United Kingdom rather, they physically built America because, the slave Masters who were mainly British ensured, slave ships were forwarded straight to the Americas thus, not many of the those ships stopped over, on British shores.

Check your British History you'd be more informed than here! That's why the British are adamant in keeping and dictating what happens in their Country irrespective of the fact, they embraced EU and diversity.

Yes, the American systems and that of United Kingdom may seem similar but they operate differently in terms of their Laws and Social provisions/care.

For curiosity sake, I just want to know when did America become a 'Merit Based Society'? Does it include the 'enshrined Affirmative Action' that enabled Blacks and other ethnic groups to jump the queue for Equal Opportunities without having to work hard to earn it? ?Merit it.

Before, Affirmative Action came into place, Blacks Americans were suffering badly because the system failed to provide Equal Opportunities for all in the first place? So, Affirmation Action was enshrined in their Law to ensure employers allow everyone equal employment opportunities and better life, ok!

However, the equivalent in the Uk is the Equal Opportunities Act 1972 as Amended in recent years. Equal Opportunity cases can present difficulty proving in Tribunals though, people still succeed in doing so, and winning their cases/compensations.

That aside, take out the Affirmative Action measures in America and see whether Black Americans can compare with those in the Uk in terms of hard work, they wouldn't stand a chance yet, with those measures, American Blacks are not much better off, than those in the UK.

Also in comparison, the level of crimes there are much worse than the Uk - There are many Nigerians languishing in American jails (also in British jails but not as much!!)and that's the reason why you don't hear much about recent crimes committed by Nigerians over their - and how could you hear about that, when they are all in jail?? Check it out!

And those who are not yet in jail, are taking precautions and learning their lessons from what happened to their brother and sisters out there.

Why? Because, American Courts sabi how to hand-over jail terms - theirs are usually between 30 - 1000 yrs minimum, ask people. That's one of the main reasons you don't hear much about crime among Nigeria youths out there. They're clever ain't they? Who wants to waste their lives in jail without parole?

On the other hand, Uk sentencing is much, more softer - they get parole even if they committed murder. Depending on the case, it usually about 30yrs (or worst case scenerio life) and with good behaviour in prison, you serve half of that and out with parole.

Now, you can see why? That's why some idiotic youths in the UK are taking advantage of the system here to join the locals in committing crimes thinking it's fun.

But what do you mean by Nigerians trying to differential from the stigma of poverty or lower level status attached to African Americans? And, who told you that all British Blacks are recent arrival - in your dreams?

Listen man, Nigerians have been in the Uk since 16th Century - so Blacks have been there since then therefore, your assertion does not hold at all. In addition, in the West - Black is black irrespective of who you are, and no one can't pull that out, no matter how hard they try! Societies changes with time - see how long its taken a black man to enter the White House? Well, I wonder when one would enter No. 10 D. Let's hope!

However, Nigerians in America can try as hard as they can, until society changes i.e. changes their beliefs and values, they are just wasting their time.

Finally, you mentioned about the Class system in the Uk - look, every Society has it own class system including Nigeria. Nobe una dey worship and idolate una Government Ministers wey dey steal our money, come carry them for 'Ghana Must Go' and una go dey praise them! Haba!!! How about some tribes that have Kings and Emirs - are theirs not categorised as class?

So man, check your source of information - and try and get it right next time.[/b][/size]

You took him to school. I didn't even feel the need to waste my time typing all of this which should be known by anyone who's live here for even 20 yrs, to talk of one who claims to have been born here and is even half African-American.

P.S: Your Fonts and the color no be am at all sha....

shymmex:

That's the funniest apart of the whole back and forth on this thread. You don't need to argue about the success rate of Nigerians in America, it's already glaring that they're better off than the ones in the UK - and definitely more educated. Only insecure people won't accept that.

Back to the topic.

Umm. . . . is this thread about "success" achieved among Nigerians in the U.K/U.S or "Gang Culture" amongst Nigerians in the U.K v U.S?!

Katsumoto: This is a list of Asian folks, mostly Indians, please find a list for BLACK folks in the UK.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/aug/26/pressandpublishing.raceintheuk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/05/britishidentity.race

http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/uk%E2%80%99s-hidden-black-middle-class

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/05/britishidentity.race1

PhysicsQED:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/aug/26/pressandpublishing.raceintheuk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/05/britishidentity.race

http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/uk%E2%80%99s-hidden-black-middle-class

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/05/britishidentity.race1

I am not quite sure what your lists are meant to do. I provided a list of the top 20 wealthiest Indians and you provided a list of Black role models. Did I state that there weren't/aren't any Black role models in the UK? The point I made to Naijababe was that Indians have done better than Black folks in the UK. The lists you provided buttresses my point.

PhysicsQED:


http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/aug/26/pressandpublishing.raceintheuk

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/05/britishidentity.race

http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/uk%E2%80%99s-hidden-black-middle-class

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/oct/05/britishidentity.race1

How many of the twenty people you listed were born and raised in the UK?? Even the names listed included some sportsmen, and the rest of them - are not even in public eye.. Keep defending the indefensible, and you don't even live here.

Katsumoto:
[b]Did I state that there weren't/aren't any Black role models in the UK? [/b]The point I made to Naijababe was that Indians have done better than Black folks in the UK. The lists you provided buttresses my point.

No you didn't, but that seems to be a running theme in this thread. I just kind of seized on your statement because it fit what I was going to post. Wasn't a rejoinder or anything, so maybe I shouldn't have quoted you specifically.


Anyway, I don't really understand the "there are no role models/business moguls for us to imitate" justification. Who were those Indians imitating when they made their fortunes?

shymmex:

How many of the twenty people you listed were born and raised in the UK?? Even the names listed included some sportsmen, and the rest of them - are not even in public eye.. Keep defending the indefensible, and you don't even live here.

So if they had all been born in the UK and were all millionaire business moguls and never sportsmen, what difference would that make as far as what black youth in Britain are doing?

PhysicsQED:
So if they had all been born in the UK and were all millionaire business moguls, what difference would that make as far as what black youth in Britain are doing?

The problem with listing people, who achieved success before coming here - is that you're not painting a perfect picture of how the system works. The system didn't raise these people, they were raised in a different place, and achieved an amount of success - before choosing the UK as a 'hideout' of sort. It will be disingenuous to foster that on kids, born and raised here, with an illusion - that they have a stake in a society they call home.

Remember, these kids are raised as Britons, and they have a sense of belonging - that the country is theirs as well. I doubt Mo Ibrahim sees himself as a Briton, he's a Sudanese, with a British passport - and he has never denied that. He made his money in Sudan as well.

^ I have to say though that list is kind of pathetic lol relative to the Katsumoto's indian list. Most of them are mixed race too in fact seems there is some major skin color issue in the UK. I was reading this interesting article about a Nigerian who was at Cambridge a long time ago who gave some brief commentaries on institutional racism in the UK at the top:

http://www.nigeriansinamerica.com/articles/81/1/The-Wheel-of-Destiny/Page1.html

Fact is true though Africans/blacks rarely if ever start sustainable businesses abroad and so the statistics state. Even in America where there is "more opportunity", most of the Africans just join the grind and then at most exit out looking for opportunities back in Nigeria when they hit the glass ceiling in the corporate world.

As for the crime wave this is not surprising. A lot of Nigerians have to live in poor neighborhoods in the UK (read neighborhoods with large black- Afro-Caribbean, African and native black British communities) when they arrive the UK. And their kids could easily get influenced by other black youths (most of Caribbean descent) who are in gangs- its all peer pressure.

I don't even how deep they had to dig to find the twenty people they listed. I have never even heard about most of the names on the list. Listing twenty successful role models in Nigeria won't take me thirty seconds - neither would listing 20 successful Nigerian Americans, or African Americans. I know they had to research those twenty names for months - and the net worth of most of them, apart from Mo Ibrahim, and the Senegalese guy - won't make the top 100,000 successful people in the world lol.

PhysicsQED:


No you didn't, but that seems to be a running theme in this thread. I just kind of seized on your statement because it fit what I was going to post. Wasn't a rejoinder or anything, so maybe I shouldn't have quoted you specifically.


Anyway, I don't really understand the "there are no role models/business moguls for us to imitate" justification. Who were those Indians imitating when they made their fortunes?

No you shouldn't have; by quoting me directly, you made it seem like you were providing a rebuttal.

With regards to your second statement, you are mixing up two different points. The first was about there not being enough visible black role models for kids to emulate. The second point was about the Indians ability to expand and grow their business in the UK while the black folks are happy with their one branch/location business. At no point in this debate did I state that Indians were ahead because they have/had role models.

SEFAGO: ^ I have to say though that list is kind of pathetic lol relative to the Katsumoto's indian list. Most of them are mixed race too in fact seems there is some major skin color issue in the UK. I was reading this interesting article about a Nigerian who was at Cambridge a long time ago who gave some brief commentaries on institutional racism in the UK at the top:

http://www.nigeriansinamerica.com/articles/81/1/The-Wheel-of-Destiny/Page1.html

Fact is true though Africans/blacks rarely if ever start sustainable businesses abroad and so the statistics state. Even in America where there is "more opportunity", most of the Africans just join the grind and then at most exit out looking for opportunities back in Nigeria when they hit the glass ceiling in the corporate world.

As for the crime wave this is not surprising. A lot of Nigerians have to live in poor neighborhoods in the UK (read neighborhoods with large black- Afro-Caribbean, African and native black British communities) when they arrive the UK. And their kids could easily get influenced by other black youths (most of Caribbean descent) who are in gangs- its all peer pressure.

Sefago, the list gave me jokes as well. You can name 100 people in Lekki alone, who are more successful than those names - may be Mo Ibrahim will get a pass. Mo Ibrahim is not even a Briton, but they had to add him to the list, to boost their deflated ego.

Funny people, I tell ya.

Imagine a list with Rio Ferdinand, and Lewis Hamilton making the top ten lol.

@ shymmex

I guess I don't really see your point. Let's just agree to disagree.

Theblessed: I

You don't have to post your rants in large font.

PhysicsQED: @ shymmex

I guess I don't really see your point. Let's just agree to disagree.

My point is that you provided a rebuttal, that didn't rebut anything. The list didn't prove anything. I guess we have to agree to disagree.

shymmex: I don't even how deep they had to dig to find the twenty people they listed. I have never even heard about most of the names on the list. Listing twenty successful role models in Nigeria won't take me thirty seconds - neither would listing 20 successful Nigerian Americans, or African Americans. I know they had to research those twenty names for months - and the net worth of most of them, apart from Mo Ibrahim, and the Senegalese guy - won't make the top 100,000 successful people in the world lol.

1. Listing 20 successful role models in Nigeria? lol, the population of Nigeria is over 100 million and it's a sovereign country. Of course there are going to be some achievers.

2. What does how many successful Nigerian Americans or African Americans there are have to do with what the youth are doing? There are loads of successful African Americans both dead and alive and yet the African American youth are not turning out to be ideal or achieving at high enough levels in general.

SEFAGO:
As for the crime wave this is not surprising. A lot of Nigerians have to live in poor neighborhoods in the UK (read neighborhoods with large black- Afro-Caribbean, African and native black British communities) when they arrive the UK. And their kids could easily get influenced by other black youths (most of Caribbean descent) who are in gangs- its all peer pressure.

I think this is the only thing posted in this thread so far that has any validity or relevance to the question posted by the OP. Everything else seems like whining and cop-outs.

PhysicsQED:
1. Listing 20 successful role models in Nigeria? lol, the population of Nigeria is over 100 million and it's a sovereign country. Of course there are going to be some achievers.

2. What does how many successful Nigerian Americans or African Americans there are have to do with what the youth are doing? There are loads of successful African Americans both dead and alive and yet the African American youth are not turning out to be ideal or achieving at high enough levels in general.

My point is that, the system is institutionally racist, and they're not letting anyone through - except if you're into sports, or music. Most of the names you listed are old money, their parents, or grandparent made their money in other countries - before coming to the UK. And in the case of Mo Ibrahim, he made his money before coming here.

David Lammy for example, is from a middle class family - he went through the private school system - and there is no way any of these kids can see him as a role model. There are no rags to riches stories in the UK - except if you do sports, or make music. Most people maintain the status quo from birth - to their death bed, that's the reality.

shymmex: ^^^Poverty, class, long working hours, and absentee fathers... Most Nigerians don't even know that most of the Nigerians born in the UK are from single parent home - it's either the dad is there but don't care about the family - or he's absent...

I may also add the over-dependence on welfare, and the naive parents to the list.

^^^ I already answered the OP's questions there. And I may add lack of role models to the list.

shymmex:

My point is that, the system is institutionally racist, and they're not letting anyone through - except if you're into sports, or music. Most of the names you listed are old money, their parents, or grandparent made their money in other countries - before coming to the UK. And in the case of Mo Ibrahim, he made his money before coming here.

David Lammy for example, is from a middle class family - he went through the private school system - and there is no way any of these kids can see him as a role model. There are no rags to riches stories in the UK - except if you do sports, or make music. Most people maintain the status quo from birth - to their death bed, that's the reality.

The situation is the same in America for African Americans, except harder for them. Black America is sill largely segregated from White America and there are the exact same allegations of institutional racism and complaints that music and sports are the only way out.


The answer to the OP's question was already provided by SEFAGO a few posts ago: if the Nigerians there avoid the blacks there who are stuck in the same quagmire in the UK as African Americans are in the US, they'll do better and won't join gangs or engage in violent crime at high levels.

PhysicsQED:
The answer to the OP's question was already provided by SEFAGO a few posts ago: if the Nigerians there avoid the blacks there who are stuck in the same quagmire in the UK as African Americans are in the US, they'll do better and won't join gangs or engage in violent crime at high levels.

How's that possible?

shymmex:

^^^ I already answered the OP's questions there. And I may add lack of role models to the list.

"Poverty" (calling what poor blacks in the UK experience "poverty" sounds ridiculous by the way, are they really impoverished in the real sense?) is not an explanation. It's a description, at best. Same for "class".

"Long working hours" also isn't an explanation. That's an excuse at best. My (middle class) parents also had and have long working hours.

"Lack of role models" isn't an explanation (see African Americans, who have role models in all areas of human endeavor even before affirmative action or even civil rights, yet their youth have the same problems)

shymmex:

How's that possible?

How is it not possible? The black people in the UK are a minority, right? I don't see why the Ghanians, Nigerians, Kenyans, etc. in the UK have to live with and amongst the blacks in the UK that are going through the same kind of social struggle black Americans are going through in the US. Are they afraid of not being around other blacks or something?

PhysicsQED:

"Poverty" (calling what poor blacks in the UK experience "poverty" sounds ridiculous by the way, are they really impoverished in the real sense?) is not an explanation. It's a description, at best. Same for "class".

"Long working hours" also isn't an explanation. That's an excuse at best. My (middle class) parents also had and have long working hours.

"Lack of role models" isn't an explanation (see African Americans, who have role models in all areas of human endeavor even before affirmative action or even civil rights, yet their youth have the same problems)

You sound naive to think that, there's no poverty in the UK. There's no point have a discourse with someone who's an outsider. I'll just laugh off your post, and act as if I didn't see it.

shymmex:

You sound naive to think that, there's no poverty in the UK. There's no point have a discourse with someone who's an outsider. I'll just laugh off your post, and act as if I didn't see it.

I was only saying that it sounds inappropriate to call it poverty. There are poor people in almost every country, but the word "poverty" has a completely different import/connotation to it (even if its dictionary definition just means poor). We're talking about the UK, not Somalia. There are poor people yes, but I couldn't call anyone living in Britain 'impoverished' and feel ok about it.

I think it's time to provide some perspective.

There many Nigerians in many cities in the UK; Manchester, Birmingham, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Bath, Berkshire, Birmingham, London, etc. There are also many Nigerian families in the many different boroughs of London. There are approximately 32/33 boroughs. The Boroughs where Nigerian kids are likely to get into trouble are Lambeth, Southwark, and Hackney. And even in those three main boroughs, Nigerians kids are leaving high school with great results.

There is no need for outsiders to think that there is a good chance that a Nigerian kid can get into trouble with the law. The truth is being stretched at this point. It has been estimated that there are at least 5 million nigerians in the UK. The number of Nigerian kids who have made the headlines for the wrong reasons is less than 150 and I am being generous. That some Nigerian kids got into trouble doesn't other kids are in trouble or in danger of being in trouble.

The UK is a small country relative to the US and also small to the US in terms of violent crime. Negative news about violent crime is likely to get more coverage in the UK than in the US. It just means if Nigerian kids in the US get into trouble, it's not going to get as much coverage.

PhysicsQED:
How is it not possible? The black people in the UK are a minority, right? I don't see why the Ghanians, Nigerians, Kenyans, etc. in the UK have to live with and amongst the blacks in the UK that are going through the same kind of social struggle black Americans are going through in the US. Are they afraid of not being around other blacks or something?

Another ignorant comment. I know everyone raised here will just laugh off your comments.

Katsumoto: I think it's time to provide some perspective.

There many Nigerians in many cities in the UK; Manchester, Birmingham, Essex, Kent, Surrey, Bath, Berkshire, Birmingham, London, etc. There are also many Nigerian families in the many different boroughs of London. There are approximately 32/33 boroughs. The Boroughs where Nigerian kids are likely to get into trouble are Lambeth, Southwark, and Hackney. And even in those three main boroughs, Nigerians kids are leaving high school with great results.

There is no need for outsiders to think that there is a good chance that a Nigerian kid can get into trouble with the law. The truth is being stretched at this point. It has been estimated that there are at least 5 million nigerians in the UK. The number of Nigerian kids who have made the headlines for the wrong reasons is less than 150 and I am being generous. That some Nigerian kids got into trouble doesn't other kids are in trouble or in danger of being in trouble.

The UK is a small country relative to the US and also small to the US in terms of violent crime. Negative news about violent crime is likely to get more coverage in the UK than in the US. It just means if Nigerian kids in the US get into trouble, it's not going to get as much coverage.

5million Nigerians in the UK?

That number is ridiculous, I doubt we're upto 1million max. I didn't expect the great Kats to make that mistake.

shymmex:

5million Nigerians in the UK?

That number is ridiculous, I doubt we're upto 1million max. I didn't expect the great Kats to make that mistake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British


Yeah, Nigerians in Britain aren't up to 1 million if there were only 1.5 million blacks in the UK in 2009.

.

PhysicsQED:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_British
Yeah, Nigerians in Britain aren't up to 1 million if there were only 1.5 million blacks in the UK in 2009.

I concur 100%. Blacks are just 2-3% of the 60million people living on this Island.