Some people feel that when Jesus told the story found in Luke 16:19-31, He was sharing a glimpse of what takes place in the afterlife. Others, citing many passages of Scripture that seem to contradict the picture of heaven and hell brought to view in this message, feel that Jesus was teaching an altogether different kind of lesson.

Before we begin, it should be stated that this is the only passage in scripture that teaches consciousness between death and the resurrection. Also, there is not the least reference made to the soul or spirit of man. The question is, is it a parable or a literal story?

In Mark 4:33, 34, we read that Jesus gave His lessons as parables. To begin with, this story says nothing about immortal souls leaving the body at death. Instead, the rich man, after he died, has "eyes" and a "tongue," that is, very real body parts. He asked that Lazarus "dip the tip of his finger in water."

If the story is to be taken literally, then at death, the good and the bad do not soar away as shadowy spirits (Job 34:14, Ecclesiastes 3:21; 12:7), instead, they go to their rewards as physical beings with body parts. How could this be when their bodies return to dust? (Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 3:20; 12:7, Psalm 22:29; 104:29; 146:4, Job 7:21; 17:16; 34:15, Isaiah 26:19, Daniel 12:2). We know that the body does not go to hell at death, because it is very obvious that the body remains in the grave, as the Bible says (Job 17:13; John 5:28,29).

Now, suppose we add the word "soul," so as to make it harmonize with modern theology. Then it should read;

And it came to pass, that the beggar's body died, and his soul; the rich man's body also died, and his soul, and in hell he lifted up the eyes of his soul, being in torments, and seeth Abraham's soul afar off, and he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus' soul, that he may dip the tip of the finger of his soul in water, and cool the tongue of my soul; for my soul it is tormented in this flame.

Remember the nature of the soul of man, that it is without body or parts; that it has neither interior nor exterior. Could such a being have a "tongue," "finger," and "eyes?" Absurd! Whenever there is a tongue, finger and eyes, there is a physical, material organism.

Five Questions to Ponder

If you are convinced that "The Rich Man And Lazarus" is not a parable, I have some questions for you.


Is it possible that heaven and hell are so close to each other that a conversation can be held between the inhabitants of heaven and hell?

Can those in heaven look down and see people burning in hell?

Can they hear the screams?

Would a finger dipped in water lesson the torment in a burning hell?


How large is Abraham's large bosom if it contains all the elect who go there?

Obviously, the language here is highly symbolic. How could anyone go to Abraham’s physical bosom? Nowhere in the Bible is "Abraham’s Bosom" defined as "heaven". At the time this parable was spoken, Abraham's body parts were not heaven, but in the grave (Genesis 25:8-9).


What's the Point?
This story is a parable, used by Christ, to emphasize a point. This passage is the fifth in a series of parables:


The lost sheep - Luke 15:3-7;

The lost coin - Luke 15:8-10;

The lost boy - Luke 15:11-32;

The unjust rich man - Luke 16:1-15;

The rich man and Lazarus - Luke 16:19-31.
Concerning "The rich man and Lazarus," a manuscript of the seventh century reads: "And he spake also another parable." Another of the tenth century reads: "the Lord spake this parable." I wonder why this disappeared from the Bible?

The point Christ was making is found in the very last verse of this parable:

Luke 16:31, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Nowhere does this story speak of sending back ‘spirits’, not even in the matter of returning to warn men, but of rising "from the dead." The lesson Jesus was trying to teach in this parable is apparent from the remarks with which He prefaced the story. The Pharisees were covetous (verse 14). They also regarded wealth as an evidence of God's favor and poverty of His displeasure.



The Meaning of this Parable to the Jews living in the first century

The Jewish nation, (especially the Scribes and Pharisees) were about to die as a power, as a church, as a controlling influence in the world; while the common people among them, and the Gentiles, were to be exalted in the new order of things. The details of the parable shows: "There was a certain rich man clothed in purple and fine linen." In these first words, by describing their very costume, the Savior fixed attention on the Jewish priesthood. They were, emphatically, the rich men of that nation. His description of the beggar was equally graphic. He lay at the gate of the rich, only asking to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the table. Thus dependent were the common people, and the Gentiles, on the scribes and Pharisees.

We remember how Christ once rebuked them for shutting up the kingdom of heaven against those entering. They lay at the gates of the Jewish hierarchy, for the Gentiles were literally restricted to the outer court of the temple. Hence in Revelation 11:2, we read; "But the court, which is without the temple, leave out, and measure it not, for it is given unto the Gentiles." They could only stand at the outer court, or lie at the gate. The brief, graphic descriptions given by our Savior, at once showed his hearers that he was describing those two classes, the Jewish priesthood and nation, on the one hand, and the common people, Jews and Gentiles, on the other.

The rich man died and was buried. This class died officially, nationally, and its power departed. The kingdom of God was taken from them & conferred on others (Matthew 21:43). The beggar died. The Gentiles, publicans and sinners were translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son, where is neither Jew nor Greek, but where all are one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:28 ).

This is the meaning of "Abraham's bosom." They accepted the true faith and so became one with faithful Abraham. Abraham is called the father of the faithful, and the beggar is represented to have gone to Abraham's bosom, to denote the fact, which is now history, that the common people and Gentiles accepted Christ, enjoying the blessings of the faith.

What is meant by the torment of the rich man? The misery of those proud men, when, soon after, their land was captured, and their city and temple possessed by barbarians, and they scattered like chaff before the wind--a condition in which they have continued from that day (70 A.D.) to this. All efforts to bless them with the teachings of Christ have proved unavailing. At this very moment there is a great gulf fixed so that there is no passing to and fro. And observe, the Jews do not desire the gospel. Nor did the rich man ask to enter Abraham's bosom with Lazarus. He only wished Lazarus to alleviate his sufferings by dipping his finger in water and cooling his tongue. It is so with the Jews today. They do not desire the gospel; they only ask those among whom they sojourn to tolerate them and soften the hardships that accompany their wanderings.

The Jewish church and nation are now dead. Once they were exalted to heaven, but now they are thrust down to Hades, the kingdom of death. Jesus knew the Pharisees believed this and used it in a parable. Of the Pharisees, Josephus says: "They also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them, and that, under the earth, there will be rewards and punishments, according as they lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again." (Antiquities, B. 18,Ch. 1, ß3. Whiston's Tr.).

The Lessons for us that Jesus was seeking to teach in this Parable


In this life is the time when decisions for salvation are irrevocably made. There will be no future opportunity to change.

A contrast is being drawn between those who, in this life, make wealth their dependence and the poor who have depended upon Christ. A man's value is not in his possessions; for all that he has belongs to him only as lent by the Lord. A misuse of these gifts will place him below the poorest and most afflicted man who loves God and trusts in Him.

The law and the prophets are God's appointed agencies for the salvation of men. Christ was telling His hearers to give heed to these evidences. If they do not listen to the voice of God in His Word, the testimony of a witness raised from the dead would not be heeded. This literally happened in the resurrection of Lazarus, just shortly before Christ's death. (See John 11.) Those who had rejected previous evidence as to His messiahship were so hardened, however, by their rejection of the evidence already available to them, that this crowning miracle of Jesus' ministry did not change their course toward Him.


Conclusion

Clearly, this story is a parable, and doctrines cannot to be built upon parables or allegories. A parable, like other illustrations, is generally used to make clear one particular point. To try to build doctrines on every part of the story would generally result in a completely unreasonable conclusion, if not utter contradiction. Certainly, we would not expect to find in the illustration a proof for a belief the very opposite of that held by the speaker or writer of the scriptures.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/lazarus.html

Hi frosbel, i really appreciate your research. As a matter of fact the issue of hell fire as taught by Jesus has generated so much debate and argument. However if we take a more cursory look at the scripture it seems christ is the only one that taught about hell in length and details. Jesus described hell....1.) a place of outer darkness, 2) a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, 3)a place where the fire is not quench, 4) a place where the worms do not die,5) a place prepared for the devil and his angel. I dnt think all thiese are symbolic if you go through the passages of the scripture where christ warned against hell. Now back to this story, the bible never called it a parable. This is the only case where Jesus mentioned a person name throughout his message. He talked about the state of two people that once lived on earth. Both of them died and the condition of their lives after death was analyse. First Lazarus. We dnt have much information on hw he lived his life. But christ explained he was conforted after death. He was carried into Abraham bussom. Simmply a place of comfort after the death of the righteos. Lets not try confuse things here to make the information irrelevant. And thats the hope of the righteos because if a righteous man suffer and die here on earth without any hope of a better life after death that means that christianity is useless. On the case of the rich man, christ said in hell he lifted up his head being in torment. It means that he was fully concious after death. He remembered he still have family he left behind on earth, he asked lazarus to be sent back to earth to warn his family of the danger of coming to hell after death. Frosbel maybe you should go back to all the teachings of Jesus on hell then you can come back and post. You may not agree with christ on this but dnt twist his word here pls. Go and read ur bible again pls and dnt let any person giv u a wrong view of christ teachings.

true2god: Hi frosbel, i really appreciate your research. As a matter of fact the issue of hell fire as taught by Jesus has generated so much debate and argument.
However if we take a more cursory look at the scripture it seems christ is the only one that taught about hell in length and details. Jesus described hell....1.) a place of outer darkness,

Indeed to be cast away from the presence of the Lord is darkness itself, away from the light of God forever and ever.

2) a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,

and why not, this will be their final end , all the opportunities they were given to repent, the regrets and the terrible fact that they will be destroyed by the Wrath of GOD and die the second death , the eternal seperation of families, sons and daughters, dads and mums common do you expect them to be laughing

But after their destruction, the bibles says there will be no more crying and no more death in the book of revelations.

3)a place where the fire is not quench,

"Unquenchable fire" is an apparently absolute expression which is limited in application, (i.e., until that which is the subject of reference, is totally and utterly consumed). Two passages serve as an illustration:


"Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall turn, and shall not be quenched." (Jer. 7:20). Nevertheless God will have mercy upon Zion when the "set time is come". (Psa. 102:13). Jerusalem will be the city of the great King. (Matt. 5:35 cf. Luke 1:31-33).

"I will kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched." (Jer. 17:27). The fire was not quenched until it had consumed all that could be burned. The fire is not now burning.

4) a place where the worms do not die,

The Greek word, "Gehenna" translated "hell" comes from the Hebrew, "Ghi-Hinnom",1 the name of the valley to the south of Jerusalem2 where the kings Ahaz and Manasseh offered their sons to the Molech. (2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 32:35). The area was polluted by Josiah (2 Kings 23:10) and was called Topheth (altar).3 It subsequently became the city's garbage dump, where dead animals were thrown and refuse burned.4 What remained from the fire was consumed by the worm. Jesus, therefore, uses the word "Gehenna" as a symbol of complete and utter destruction, not as a term denoting eternal preservation in torment.

5) a place prepared for the devil and his angel

But God said himself that the devil will be destroyed and be no more, or how do you explain the following verse :


A Lament over the King of Tyre ( SATAN )

11 Moreover, the word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the signet of perfection,[a]
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.[c]
On the day that you were created
they were prepared.
14 You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;[d] you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you.
16 In the abundance of your trade
you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;
so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,
and I destroyed you,[e] O guardian cherub,
from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.
[b]I cast you to the ground;
I exposed you before kings,
to feast their eyes on you.
18 By the multitude of your iniquities,
in the unrighteousness of your trade
you profaned your sanctuaries;
so I brought fire out from your midst;
it consumed you,
and I turned you to ashes on the earth
in the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
are appalled at you;
you have come to a dreadful end
and shall be no more forever.”



This is DEATH my friend, eternal death , not everlasting torment.

Of course the death will be a very painful one !!

I dnt think all thiese are symbolic if you go through the passages of the scripture where christ warned against hell

What shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world and lose his soul, Jesus came for a purpose I hope you know, for his great love for mankind , he forfeited his glory for a moment to taste death for every man so that we do not have to die for ever and ever. This is the second death.

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

The word destroy here means exactly what it says , destroy, it never mentions eternal torture, this whole concept of eternal torment is a pagan doctrine of the catholic church.

Now back to this story, the bible never called it a parable. This is the only case where Jesus mentioned a person name throughout his message. He talked about the state of two people that once lived on earth. Both of them died and the condition of their lives after death was analyse. First Lazarus. We dnt have much information on hw he lived his life. But christ explained he was conforted after death. He was carried into Abraham bussom. Simmply a place of comfort after the death of the righteos. Lets not try confuse things here to make the information irrelevant. And thats the hope of the righteos because if a righteous man suffer and die here on earth without any hope of a better life after death that means that christianity is useless. On the case of the rich man, christ said in hell he lifted up his head being in torment. It means that he was fully concious after death.

It is a parable.

It is appointed unto man to die once and after that judgement. There is no one in hell because hell is a future event. The word in this parable is hades which is simply the grave.

God is just , no punishment is issued until after judgement, to punish a man or woman before judgement has been passed is something even a human judge will not do. And when we see people banged up in Kirikiri without judgement for years we are grieved because they are suffering unjustly.

Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

".........Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" - Genesis 18:25b

He remembered he still have family he left behind on earth, he asked lazarus to be sent back to earth to warn his family of the danger of coming to hell after death.

Jesus simply used this parable to depict the hardness of heart of the Jews , that even if one were to rise from the dead and warn them, they will not hearken.

Indeed Lazarus rose from the dead but most significantly Christ rose from the dead, did they repent, NOPE. They actually went from bad to worse.

And just to reinforce my point, and for argument sake , a soul has no tongue or hands, tell me how can a soul if we follow your logic have a tongue to taste water

Besides it is inconceivable to imagine that for thousands of years , the redeemed , 'disembodied souls' were watching their relatives burn in the so called hell and not feel any emotion or grief.

This is simply a parable.

Frosbel maybe you should go back to all the teachings of Jesus on hell then you can come back and post. You may not agree with christ on this but dnt twist his word here pls. Go and read ur bible again pls and dnt let any person giv u a wrong view of christ teachings.

I agree with my LORD and Savior on hell , he will burn the chaff with 'unquenchable fire ' and destroy both soul and body in hell.

Please let us stop portraying God as a sadist and chasing potential sheep away from the gospel.

Thank you very much Frosbel, in order word if i read the bible without further research i will be made to believe Jesus' teaching on the existence of hell. But if i do extra research frm biblical and secular sources i can nullify some of christ's plain teachings as symbolic. In order word that means that virtually all the teachings of christ should not be taken as true or literal but symbolic. In as much as we xtain beleive in the divinity of christ, being the only person in the bible that warn extensively on the danger of hell (as no other biblical prophet gave an extensive teachin on dis topic), being the creator of heaven and earth (john 1:1), i dnt think he will be so cosmetic with the truth. To cut it short, if i understand u too well, most christ teachings are symbolic and not to be taken serios. Please sir, may i know christ teachings that are symbolic and the ones that are real? Because the Jesus you try to explain here is quite different frm the one i knw.

food for thought

true2god: Hi frosbel, i really appreciate your research. As a matter of fact the issue of hell fire as taught by Jesus has generated so much debate and argument. However if we take a more cursory look at the scripture it seems christ is the only one that taught about hell in length and details. Jesus described hell....1.) a place of outer darkness, 2) a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, 3)a place where the fire is not quench, 4) a place where the worms do not die,5) a place prepared for the devil and his angel. I dnt think all thiese are symbolic if you go through the passages of the scripture where christ warned against hell. Now back to this story, the bible never called it a parable. This is the only case where Jesus mentioned a person name throughout his message. He talked about the state of two people that once lived on earth. Both of them died and the condition of their lives after death was analyse. First Lazarus. We dnt have much information on hw he lived his life. But christ explained he was conforted after death. He was carried into Abraham bussom. Simmply a place of comfort after the death of the righteos. Lets not try confuse things here to make the information irrelevant. And thats the hope of the righteos because if a righteous man suffer and die here on earth without any hope of a better life after death that means that christianity is useless. On the case of the rich man, christ said in hell he lifted up his head being in torment. It means that he was fully concious after death. He remembered he still have family he left behind on earth, he asked lazarus to be sent back to earth to warn his family of the danger of coming to hell after death. Frosbel maybe you should go back to all the teachings of Jesus on hell then you can come back and post. You may not agree with christ on this but dnt twist his word here pls. Go and read ur bible again pls and dnt let any person giv u a wrong view of christ teachings.

THANKS MY DEAR BROTHER AND GOD BLESS YOU.

alexleo:

THANKS MY DEAR BROTHER AND GOD BLESS YOU.

Wow, you guys have been so blinded by the tradition of your church , so sad.

Keep preaching your gospel of fear and turning people into atheists , I will preach the gospel of good news

true2god: Thank you very much Frosbel, in order word if i read the bible without further research i will be made to believe Jesus' teaching on the existence of hell. But if i do extra research frm biblical and secular sources i can nullify some of christ's plain teachings as symbolic. In order word that means that virtually all the teachings of christ should not be taken as true or literal but symbolic. In as much as we xtain beleive in the divinity of christ, being the only person in the bible that warn extensively on the danger of hell (as no other biblical prophet gave an extensive teachin on dis topic), being the creator of heaven and earth (john 1:1), i dnt think he will be so cosmetic with the truth. To cut it short, if i understand u too well, most christ teachings are symbolic and not to be taken serios. Please sir, may i know christ teachings that are symbolic and the ones that are real? Because the Jesus you try to explain here is quite different frm the one i knw.

THANKS AGAIN MY BROTHER. GOD BLESS YOU. They are just being guided by their feel-good emotions in this teaching and thats why they are twisting the scriptures to suit what they are saying.

frosbel:

Wow, you guys have been so blinded by the tradition of your church , so sad.

Keep preaching your gospel of fear and turning people into atheists , I will preach the gospel of good news

AND HOW MANY ATHEISTS HAVE YOU RECONVERTED(AT LEAST HERE IN NAIRALAND) OR EVEN ELSEWHERE WITH YOUR SWEET MESSAGE? See, anybody that wants to serve God will serve God no matter what. Anybody that tells you he is not serving God because of hell is just making noise. How about those who are not atheists and yet not saved? Is it also our teachings? So are you saying that its because of your new found sweet message that you are still serving God? May be if you didnt create the sweet teaching you would ve become an atheist by now? Meanwhile you got saved when you ve not created your sweet teaching.

Prosbel, can explain the meaning of Proverb 15:24 "The way of life is above to the wise ,that he may depart from hell beneath."

If there is no hell and it certain that everyone will die & go to his grave,why did the scripture above says, "to depart from hell beneath"? Does it mean a righteous man will not go to the grave?

Another question is this. Do spirits beings have body or not? Can they feel pain or not?

true2god: Hi frosbel, i really appreciate your research. As a matter of fact the issue of hell fire as taught by Jesus has generated so much debate and argument. However if we take a more cursory look at the scripture it seems christ is the only one that taught about hell in length and details. Jesus described hell....1.) a place of outer darkness, 2) a place where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, 3)a place where the fire is not quench, 4) a place where the worms do not die,5) a place prepared for the devil and his angel. I dnt think all thiese are symbolic if you go through the passages of the scripture where christ warned against hell. Now back to this story, the bible never called it a parable. This is the only case where Jesus mentioned a person name throughout his message. He talked about the state of two people that once lived on earth. Both of them died and the condition of their lives after death was analyse. First Lazarus. We dnt have much information on hw he lived his life. But christ explained he was conforted after death. He was carried into Abraham bussom. Simmply a place of comfort after the death of the righteos. Lets not try confuse things here to make the information irrelevant. And thats the hope of the righteos because if a righteous man suffer and die here on earth without any hope of a better life after death that means that christianity is useless. On the case of the rich man, christ said in hell he lifted up his head being in torment. It means that he was fully concious after death. He remembered he still have family he left behind on earth, he asked lazarus to be sent back to earth to warn his family of the danger of coming to hell after death. Frosbel maybe you should go back to all the teachings of Jesus on hell then you can come back and post. You may not agree with christ on this but dnt twist his word here pls. Go and read ur bible again pls and dnt let any person giv u a wrong view of christ teachings.

Well coordinated thought and write-up. Permit me to add that against views of many on the believe that Christ was giving a parable or just an illustration. Then we may be force to believe that His narration was basically founded on "LIES" because the narration called the Subjects by Names and also relating to names that had Pre-exited before Christ came to the world.

ON the second note. We must be forced to believe if Rev 1:18 is true and if he conveniently after death went to defeat the enemy then I believe He knew what He was saying and telling them what He knew and they dont know happened.

The question is then, if we want to probe into this issue with an open heart, why will Jesus told a lie to drive in His points when nothing like Hell, Abraham's bossom, the boundary exist? Why will he also lied against Moses and the prophets?

In Conclusion. I strongly believe if He was even making a Parable, it was a parable of what has happened or can happen because throughout all his parable, He talked about what can happen to illustrate and drive in His points.

How can you make or use an ambigous illustration to drive in a simple point or better put why will Christ use what they dont know to illustrate what they failed to comprehend in the first place.

My submission, it was not a parable or mere illustration but an event Christ knew about that was not known to any man.

Take a look at it again, it was a life and first hand narration of an event experienced by the narrator.

Jesus was telling Parables from chapter 15 to chapter 16 gents , stop deceiving yourselves.

In Chapter 15 we had the The Parable of the Lost Sheep , The Parable of the Lost Coin , The Parable of the Lost Son and then in Chapter 16 we had the The Parable of the Shrewd Manager and the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

They were all Parables, the explanation has been provided , but your church tradition , creeds and even fear of your leaders has blinded you to the truth.

enilove: Prosbel, can explain the meaning of Proverb 15:24 "The way of life is above to the wise ,that he may depart from hell beneath."

If there is no hell and it certain that everyone will die & go to his grave,why did the scripture above says, "to depart from hell beneath"? Does it mean a righteous man will not go to the grave?

Another question is this. Do spirits beings have body or not? Can they feel pain or not?

The way above is life ;

" Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. " - Colossians 3:1-2

When we set our hearts on GOD we have life, but when we set our hearts on earthly things we merit death with no hope , or we descend into Sheol or the final resting place with no hope whatsoever of life.

Mind you Solomon never said anything about pain, fire or suffering in Sheol, grave or the place of the departed.

Even the righteousness knew they will go there and it was frightening, but they had hope, a hope of resurrection back to life.

Jacob said: "in mourning will I go down to Sheol to my son." (Genesis 37:35)

frosbel:



The way above is life ;

" Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. " - Colossians 3:1-2

When we set our hearts on GOD we have life, but when we set our hearts on earthly things we merit death with no hope , or we descend into Sheol or the final resting place with no hope whatsoever of life.

Mind you Solomon never said anything about pain, fire or suffering in Sheol, grave or the place of the departed.

Even the righteousness knew they will go there and it was frightening, but they had hope, a hope of resurrection back to life.

Jacob said: "in mourning will I go down to Sheol to my son." (Genesis 37:35)

You did not answer the second part about whether the spirits beings have body or not.Can they feel pain or not?

frosbel:

Wow, you guys have been so blinded by the tradition of your church , so sad.

Keep preaching your gospel of fear and turning people into atheists , I will preach the gospel of good news

Jer 14:14 (NIV) "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries, and the delusion of their own minds."

2 Pet 2:1 (NEB) But Israel had false prophets as well as true; and you likewise will have false teachers among you. They will import disastrous heresies, disowning the Master who bought them, and bringing swift disaster on their own heads.

2 Pet 2:1 (NEB) But Israel had false prophets as well as true; and you likewise will have false teachers among you. They will import disastrous heresies, disowning the Master who bought them, and bringing swift disaster on their own heads.
Jer 14:14 (NIV) "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries, and the delusion of their own minds."

frosbel: Jesus was telling Parables from chapter 15 to chapter 16 gents , stop deceiving yourselves.

In Chapter 15 we had the The Parable of the Lost Sheep , The Parable of the Lost Coin , The Parable of the Lost Son and then in Chapter 16 we had the The Parable of the Shrewd Manager and the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus.

They were all Parables, the explanation has been provided , but your church tradition , creeds and even fear of your leaders has blinded you to the truth.

This is not church tradition, this is simple Biblical explanation. Why will Christ be making an illustration of what was not real or what He just framed up and lied about all the characters and events? What you are literally saying is that Christ is a pathological liar.

Read all His parables again and remove the cloak from your heart you will see.

brainpulse:

This is not church tradition, this is simple Biblical explanation. Why will Christ be making an illustration of what was not real or what He just framed up and lied about all the characters and events? What you are literally saying is that Christ is a pathological liar.

Read all His parables again and remove the cloak from your heart you will see.

Were the other parable real life events??..........

brainpulse:

Well coordinated thought and write-up. Permit me to add that against views of many on the believe that Christ was giving a parable or just an illustration. Then we may be force to believe that His narration was basically founded on "LIES" because the narration called the Subjects by Names and also relating to names that had Pre-exited before Christ came to the world.

ON the second note. We must be forced to believe if Rev 1:18 is true and if he conveniently after death went to defeat the enemy then I believe He knew what He was saying and telling them what He knew and they dont know happened.

The question is then, if we want to probe into this issue with an open heart, why will Jesus told a lie to drive in His points when nothing like Hell, Abraham's bossom, the boundary exist? Why will he also lied against Moses and the prophets?

In Conclusion. I strongly believe if He was even making a Parable, it was a parable of what has happened or can happen because throughout all his parable, He talked about what can happen to illustrate and drive in His points.

How can you make or use an ambigous illustration to drive in a simple point or better put why will Christ use what they dont know to illustrate what they failed to comprehend in the first place.

My submission, it was not a parable or mere illustration but an event Christ knew about that was not known to any man.

Take a look at it again, it was a life and first hand narration of an event experienced by the narrator.

And I have asked y'all to tell us what that parable teaches....remember when Jesus gives a parable he drives home a point to his listeners...what point was Jesus trying to butress when he gave the parable of the rich man and lazaruz??.....was it that all bad people go to burn somewhere and then all the good guys go to heaven(as we know nobody has even answered if abraham was or is in heaven).......??.......

I want just one hell fire proponent to tell me the lesson from that real life event so to speak(parable from the scriptures).......

brainpulse:

This is not church tradition, this is simple Biblical explanation. Why will Christ be making an illustration of what was not real or what He just framed up and lied about all the characters and events? What you are literally saying is that Christ is a pathological liar.

Read all His parables again and remove the cloak from your heart you will see.

Let us use our brains for a moment.

If this was speaking of a literal person burning in a place called HELL, can you kindly tell me how a soul can have a body complete with hands to touch and tongue to taste ?

Jesus made this statement:

"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." - Luke 24:39

Going back to Genesis, we know from the manufacture of the product which is called man, that there were only 2 ingredients involved , Dust and Breath of life. The dust was formed into a body while the breath of life gave life to that body. So I am a bit perplexed as to what Body is burning in HELL when the body has returned to Dust.

A MAN has ONE body not THREE bodies ( spirit, soul and body ) , and this body is animated with the breath of life into a living soul , but becomes a dead body when the breath of life returns back to GOD.

I am really confused at your inability to grasp simple logic with regard to this point.

Solomon , Job and David said that when a person dies, their body returns to the dust and God takes their breath away or in the case of Solomon the spirit returns to GOD. So what exactly is in hell under torment ?

You cannot hinge a doctrine on ONLY one scripture, this is poor bible study and borders on dishonesty.

I leave you guys with your tradition and error but will continue to help others gain freedom.

@frosbel, perhaps u started this thread cos of my response on d other thread abt hell fire, well d story of lazarus and the rich man isnt a parable cos if it were so, Jesus would av said so, and u said talked abt d distance btw heaven and hell, i bliv in d things of d spirit, distance isnt a barrier...and again, i dont buy dis idea of we insulting ourselves if we dont agree on issues, we are xtians and matured, would Jesus insult if He were to be in our shoes, my advice, thanx and God bless.

frosbel:


Let us use our brains for a moment.

If this was speaking of a literal person burning in a place called HELL, can you kindly tell me how a soul can have a body complete with hands to touch and tongue to taste ?

Jesus made this statement:

"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." - Luke 24:39

Going back to Genesis, we know from the manufacture of the product which is called man, that there were only 2 ingredients involved , Dust and Breath of life. The dust was formed into a body while the breath of life gave life to that body. So I am a bit perplexed as to what Body is burning in HELL when the body has returned to Dust.

A MAN has ONE body not THREE bodies ( spirit, soul and body ) , and this body is animated with the breath of life into a living soul , but becomes a dead body when the breath of life returns back to GOD.

I am really confused at your inability to grasp simple logic with regard to this point.

Solomon , Job and David said that when a person dies, their body returns to the dust and God takes their breath away or in the case of Solomon the spirit returns to GOD. So what exactly is in hell under torment ?

You cannot hinge a doctrine on ONLY one scripture, this is poor bible study and borders on dishonesty.

I leave you guys with your tradition and error but will continue to help others gain freedom.

a ghost or spirit have body psalms 104 vs 4, thank u sir

Adekdammy: @frosbel, perhaps u started this thread cos of my response on d other thread abt hell fire, well d story of lazarus and the rich man isnt a parable cos if it were so, Jesus would av said so, and u said talked abt d distance btw heaven and hell, i bliv in d things of d spirit, distance isnt a barrier...and again, i dont buy dis idea of we insulting ourselves if we dont agree on issues, we are xtians and matured, would Jesus insult if He were to be in our shoes, my advice, thanx and God bless.

talking about insults, I guess you are referring to alexeo and co, I only state my point with logic and reason, if people cannot think outside what tradition has told them, it is their fault, they have to live with the consequences of preaching an erroneous gospel .

ijawkid:

And I have asked y'all to tell us what that parable teaches....remember when Jesus gives a parable he drives home a point to his listeners...what point was Jesus trying to butress when he gave the parable of the rich man and lazaruz??.....was it that all bad people go to burn somewhere and then all the good guys go to heaven(as we know nobody has even answered if abraham was or is in heaven).......??.......

I want just one hell fire proponent to tell me the lesson from that real life event so to speak(parable from the scriptures).......

Go throuh Luke 16: 19-31 and see what Jesus was trying to pass across

Adekdammy:
a ghost or spirit have body psalms 104 vs 4, thank u sir

"Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:" - Psalm 104:4

They have celestial bodies no doubt, but we are talking about physical bodies here with respect to hands, feet, tongue etc.


Paul only made mention of 2 kinds of bodies :

"here are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another" - 1 Corinthians 15:40

Why did Paul not mention another type of body for MAN other than that which is earthly.

brainpulse:

Go throuh Luke 16: 19-31 and see what Jesus was trying to pass across

Try Mark 8:18

frosbel:


Let us use our brains for a moment.

If this was speaking of a literal person burning in a place called HELL, can you kindly tell me how a soul can have a body complete with hands to touch and tongue to taste ?

Jesus made this statement:

"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." - Luke 24:39

Going back to Genesis, we know from the manufacture of the product which is called man, that there were only 2 ingredients involved , Dust and Breath of life. The dust was formed into a body while the breath of life gave life to that body. So I am a bit perplexed as to what Body is burning in HELL when the body has returned to Dust.

A MAN has ONE body not THREE bodies ( spirit, soul and body ) , and this body is animated with the breath of life into a living soul , but becomes a dead body when the breath of life returns back to GOD.

I am really confused at your inability to grasp simple logic with regard to this point.

Solomon , Job and David said that when a person dies, their body returns to the dust and God takes their breath away or in the case of Solomon the spirit returns to GOD. So what exactly is in hell under torment ?

You cannot hinge a doctrine on ONLY one scripture, this is poor bible study and borders on dishonesty.

I leave you guys with your tradition and error but will continue to help others gain freedom.

Tell me was christ telling lies with his illustration?

^^

Brother, you are stumped, admit it , you have nothing else to say or contribute

You have not brought one logical point to the table, it's all about emotionalism and sentiment.

Our questions remain unanswered because you have no answers, you have not even refuted any of our points , you know why, because you cannot, you cannot argue with scripture.

Blind faith is not something to be proud of.

frosbel,

I just want you to know that there are somethings you do not have knowledge of ,and which you claim to know.
Lets consider you statement that, the soul of maln is without body parts;that it is without interior nor exterior and that it does not have a tongue & eyes.

Psalm 7:2 "Lest he tear my soul like a lion,rendering it in pieces...." If soul does not have parts ,how can it be torn in pieces?

A man has a body ,soul and spirit.When someone dies,it is the body that returns to dust not the soul and the spirit.

We are created in the image of God,and God does not have a physical body made of dust, but a spiritual body.So every human being at death will become a spirit soul without physical body. This spirit can be seen and it has eyes and brain and tongues more functional than it was in the body made of dust.
God is a Spirit and has a Spiritual body that appeared to Moses in Exodus 33:23. This reads," And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my back parts,but my face thall not be seen".
This means that the rich man in hell has eyes and tongues and brains intact,as Jesus said.

Demons are spirits,still they can talk and feel pains. Likewise a dead person,who will drop the body and bocome a spirit being.

A soul has eyes and everything that the human form has. God has a soul( Judges 10:16) . Since God have eyes and mouth,why do you think the soul of Lazarus in hell will not have eyes and tongues?
Infact,the real person in us is the soul ,not the body of dust or the physical body.
Genesis 2:7 says" And God formed man of the dust of the ground ,& breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; & man bcame a LIVING SOUL. Not a living body.
When you are sleeping and dreams that you are driving,it is not the physical eyes, that is closed in bed, you use in driving but the spiritual eyes of the soul in you.When you dream,it is your soul and spirit that are in action not the physical body, which is sleeping or resting.

As you requested, this is to kindly tell you how a soul can have a complete body with hands to touch and tongues to taste.

Hell is real,Jesus said so, & it is so.

enilove: frosbel,

I just want you to know that there are somethings you do not have knowledge of ,and which you claim to know.
Lets consider you statement that, the soul of maln is without body parts;that it is without interior nor exterior and that it does not have a tongue & eyes.

Psalm 7:2 "Lest he tear my soul like a lion,rendering it in pieces...." If soul does not have parts ,how can it be torn in pieces?

A man has a body ,soul and spirit.When someone dies,it is the body that returns to dust not the soul and the spirit.

We are created in the image of God,and God does not have a physical body made of dust, but a spiritual body.So every human being at death will become a spirit soul without physical body. This spirit can be seen and it has eyes and brain and tongues more functional than it was in the body made of dust.
God is a Spirit and has a Spiritual body that appeared to Moses in Exodus 33:23. This reads," And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my back parts,but my face thall not be seen".
This means that the rich man in hell has eyes and tongues and brains intact,as Jesus said.

Demons are spirits,still they can talk and feel pains. Likewise a dead person,who will drop the body and bocome a spirit being.

A soul has eyes and everything that the human form has. God has a soul( Judges 10:16) . Since God have eyes and mouth,why do you think the soul of Lazarus in hell will not have eyes and tongues?
Infact,the real person in us is the soul ,not the body of dust or the physical body.
Genesis 2:7 says" And God formed man of the dust of the ground ,& breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; & man bcame a LIVING SOUL. Not a living body.
When you are sleeping and dreams that you are driving,it is not the physical eyes, that is closed in bed, you use in driving but the spiritual eyes of the soul in you.When you dream,it is your soul and spirit that are in action not the physical body, which is sleeping or resting.

As you requested, this is to kindly tell you how a soul can have a complete body with hands to touch and tongues to taste.

Hell is real,Jesus said so, & it is so.

God bless you, ur explanation settles it all, now its obvious that wat we now do on nairaland religious sectn was wat the early xtians were doing which brot abt proliferatn of churches, lets try to see things d way bible sees it, by d time we start applying logic or head knowledge, we miss it and we lead pple astray...the letter killeth and d spirit giveth life

[quote author=enilove]frosbel,

I just want you to know that there are somethings you do not have knowledge of ,and which you claim to know.

Yes Sir, which is why after further research I have changed positions or should we say 'shifted goal posts ' on a number of key traditional doctrines

Many old timers here , will tell you I held unto the opposite view a few years ago. Constant learning is a good thing, I hope.

Lets consider you statement that, the soul of maln is without body parts;that it is without interior nor exterior and that it does not have a tongue & eyes.

Psalm 7:2 "Lest he tear my soul like a lion,rendering it in pieces...." If soul does not have parts ,how can it be torn in pieces?

A bible refers to the MAN as the SOUL , a MAN is not a SOUL when he is dead.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

- Here a SOUL is alive complete with a Body.

Genesis 12:5
And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

- here referring to the living as Souls


Genesis 27:4
And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.

- Soul again associated with living not in death

A man has a body ,soul and spirit.When someone dies,it is the body that returns to dust not the soul and the spirit.

Let us examine your statement in the light of scripture.

1. Solomon :

"then man's dust will go back to the earth, returning to what it was, and the spirit will return to the God who gave it." - Ecclesiastes 12:7

- Body returns to dust
- spirit ( breath of life ) returns to God.


2. Job :

"If God were to take back his spirit and withdraw his breath,all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust." - Job 34:15

- God withdraws his breath or spirit
- Mankind perishes


3. David :

"When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust" - Psalm 104:29

- God takes away their breath
- they die and return to dust.


Having examined these bible verses, I would like you to tell me :

1. Where is there a mention of a separate person or entity called spirit which resides in Man.
2. If the spirit, which in your opinion is an entity in it's own right, goes upward, where does the soul go to
3. What is the difference between a soul and a spirit
4. Why does Genesis omit the account of the creation of a separate spirit and soul , instead it plainly states that man is dust with the life of GOD in him, which is really a gift

We are created in the image of God,and God does not have a physical body made of dust, but a spiritual body.So every human being at death will become a spirit soul without physical body. This spirit can be seen and it has eyes and brain and tongues more functional than it was in the body made of dust.

Wrong.

We are made in the image of GOD does not refer to a trinity/tripartite constitution, it means that we were made with similar attributes such as our ability to create, intelligence above that of animals, moral responsibility, desire for fellowship etc.

God is a Spirit and has a Spiritual body that appeared to Moses in Exodus 33:23. This reads," And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my back parts,but my face thall not be seen".

God is spirit.

Jesus is flesh and bones, therefore MAN is flesh and bones.

"Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." - Luke 24:39

This means that the rich man in hell has eyes and tongues and brains intact,as Jesus said.

Brains without a body, let me keep quiet here

Demons are spirits,still they can talk and feel pains. Likewise a dead person,who will drop the body and bocome a spirit being.

The bible does not call MAN spirit, it calls MAN flesh.

Hell is real,Jesus said so, & it is so.

Yes , there is a lake of fire, and it is indeed a dreadful place, may we not go there , amen.

brainpulse:

Go throuh Luke 16: 19-31 and see what Jesus was trying to pass across

The lesson I see Jesus passing through isn't related to literal torment of the ungodly.......

That is why I have asked what that rich man did to deserve being thrown into a fiery hell...........

What was the crime of the rich man??....

We need to get to the root of that parable...