₦airaland Forum

Image123: ^
what becomes of your inability to understand the phrase "LITTLE OR NO INTEREST"?

Ok,then. So I understand from your post above, that He has an interest then.Off goes your '' no interest '' then.

But if you say the interest is ''little'' , your lie remains.

Image123: I see you're laughing, hopefully not in unbelief this time.
1). No
2). i don't know, I'm not close to them or know any of them that well. What's your aim?

I didn’t laugh in unbelief, rather it was in disbelief. I was laughing at your blunder and I am still laughing.

1. You've just affirmed God is interested in your job?

2.My aim is obvious but if you want me to spell it out, I will.

If God has an interest in anyone's job,(any one at all), then it has to be said that he is interested in the game of football. Then what becomes of your post where you say He has little or no interest in the game?

Image123: Football is of the world, not of God. God has very little or nothing to do with it. There's a reason i include 'very little'. NOTE that i did not say football is a sin. I said football is of this world. And football, like it's origin will pass away. The god of this world runs things more in football, not God. That's why football can go and will go against God and godliness if necessary. Football and its participants will cheat, deceive, lie, gamble, bet, fight, hurt, disregard God and His worship without batting an eyelid. People like the nigerian team simply 'monkey'(deceive) atheists and their co-ignorant fellows when they come together and act like they're praying to some God/god. God does not hear the prayer of sinners, except it's something serious.

Are you saying God has little or no interest in your job?

Or you don't know some players are believers?

Football is of the world, not of God. God has very little or nothing to do with it. There's a reason i include 'very little'. NOTE that i did not say football is a sin. I said football is of this world. And football, like it's origin will pass away. The god of this world runs things more in football, not God. That's why football can go and will go against God and godliness if necessary. Football and its participants will cheat, deceive, lie, gamble, bet, fight, hurt, disregard God and His worship without batting an eyelid. People like the nigerian team simply 'monkey'(deceive) atheists and their co-ignorant fellows when they come together and act like they're praying to some God/god. God does not hear the prayer of sinners, except it's something serious.

What a post from a professing theist ! *Shakes head in disbelief*

@Baretta

God is interested in all of His creation. He is interested in all events. If this were not so, He wouldn’t have fore-knowledge, which the The Bible asserts He has, knowing the end from the beginning. Imagine God having to wait till the end of a football match to know the result ! That He has an interest in who wins is evident from the fact that the better team does not always win. How about the emotions and lives of the players, can they not be said to be influenced by the outcome of their matches? He listens to the prayers of players and grants them according to His will.

.

5solas: :

Do you agree that at least some things are predestined? How can you tell which are predestined and which are not, if so?

Zikkyy: Events could be pre-destined, but does it take away free-will? I think we are mixing things here. Dreaming of an event prior to it occurrence have nothing to do with freewill. It will happen if it is not within our power to change it.

It necessarily takes away freewill.

However, the point of my post is that everything that happens is predestined.

Zikkyy: How can man make choices without freewill? How can man be said to possess a will if there is no freedom attached to it? How can you make choices if you cannot decide for yourself? If your choices are determine by a third party, then you are simply acting out his instructions.

Is it a third party doing this post for you? And yet you could not have done this post if God willed otherwise.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Zikkyy: Why should one rely on an interpretation that is not consistent with behaviors/actions and events we find in the bible? God can force his will on man (e.g. pharaoh), no issues with that, but it is not the norm. From the time of Adam, we see that God gave man the opportunity to decide. Abraham did not act out God's will when he agreed to sacrifice Isaac, Job's was not influenced,

Acts 4
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

Zikkyy: Jonah exercised his options (even though he was later forced to do it God's way ) e.t.c

Lol. He wasn’t forced. He was made willing

Phil.2: 13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Zikkyy: It was the other way round for Cornelius and Jailer in Acts 16. Just as men who did not seek God finds him so also will men that seek him. It was the same Paul that told his jailer that he just need to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. If the Jailer is not exercising his freewill, whose[b] will[/b] is it then?
God converts. God saves.

John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is obviously better to seek him.

'Will' is not equal to 'Freewill'.
.

Zikkyy: This is contradicting everything you've said before now. If we do not have the ability to make such decisions, how can one cry out to God?

It seems contradictory to me that God who chose some persons before He laid the foundation of the world, should also command that the gospel should be preached to all. But both are true.
We don’t know if we are of the number of the elects or not (before conversion), but we do know He commands us to repent and believe.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]@5solas, i think we are disagreeing on two almost entirely different things. I disagree with the calvinist view of irresistible grace because it is a grace that forces one to be saved and that is not scriptural while you disagree that a person accepts Christ of his own accord because it is not scriptural and suggests that the person obtained his salvation.
Let me point out something; I agree that we can do absolutely nothing of our own without the help of the Holy Spirit, Salvation is a gift of God's mercy.
What I don't agree with however is that once a person is saved, no matter what he does, the Holy Spirit will make him stay in line. i believe that a person can effectively resist the Holy Ghost and be truly lost.
Well I won't say much more for now, I'll look into this carefully and give a proper response in a bit[/quote]I think you do not understand the notion of irresistible grace. It doesn't force anyone to be saved. What is meant is that it will at God's set time avail.

truthislight: @5solas

But all u can do is bond every thing together and say it is predestination of humans. Hmmm!

Please I need your an explanation of this statement.

You had said the life of Christ was predestined.How about the response of at least some people to Him.

Acts 4
24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28[b] For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done[/b].

No wonder churches breed atheist in the thousand every day.

We agree! The breeding of atheists is as a result of false doctrines.

I cant west my time trying to help or argue with someone that has no conscience to see injustice in an effort to call himself a saint.

Rom.9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

When Paul had said God chose Jacob over Esau, before they had done anything (good or bad),he imagined his hearers asking the above. Surely they must have thought it unfair too as you do or else they would not murmur "against God".

Rom.9

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

[quote author=Mr_Anony]@Ihedinobi,
I think you misread my argument. The point was that I was trying to show the difference between the called and the chosen. I was also trying to show how one after being born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit can still stubbornly refuse to be led by Him and willfully sin hence such a person will be thrown out into the outer darkness.

Now this brings me to "hell". When you describe hell as Nothing, the picture I get in my mind is that of blankness. I am absolutely sure that this is not what hell is. Hell may or may not literally be a lake of fire but one thing is sure it is a place of eternal separation from God and it is eternal torment. Nothing in scripture suggests to me that it is a place of alone-ness rather scripture paints a picture of dreadful torment[/quote]The nature described does not seem like that of a believer. Remember we are not of them who turn back to perdition, but of them who believe to the saving of the soul.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]@Ihedinobi,
I think you misread my argument. The point was that I was trying to show the difference between the called and the chosen. I was also trying to show how one after being born-again and filled with the Holy Spirit can still stubbornly refuse to be led by Him and willfully sin hence such a person will be thrown out into the outer darkness.

Now this brings me to "hell". When you describe hell as Nothing, the picture I get in my mind is that of blankness. I am absolutely sure that this is not what hell is. Hell may or may not literally be a lake of fire but one thing is sure it is a place of eternal separation from God and it is eternal torment. Nothing in scripture suggests to me that it is a place of alone-ness rather scripture paints a picture of dreadful torment[/quote]I completely agree with you.

Ihedinobi: ^^ @5solas, I think I should give other commenters an opportunity to respond although I was the one that requested your views. Depending on how they answer, I'll come in later.

Thank you for giving your thoughts on this and thereby keeping your word.

Thanks. It was what I could come up with within the time frame.

Hopefully as the comments come in I will bring in some explanations.

The teaching of predestination is also supported by that of grace. That is why Paul stresses in Romans 9:11,12 that the younger of Isaac's children was blessed rather than the elder, before they had done anything-good or bad.So that the blessing (and eventual salvation of Jacob) should not be ascribed to His good works (either present or foreseen) or anything of his (his freewill included)but to God's choice of him.See also Rom. 11:5,6.

To sum up:

Rom.9:16

"And so God's blessings are not given just because someone decides to have them or works hard to get them. They are given because God takes pity on those He wants to."--TLB

A lot of believers are wont to thump up ‘freewill’ whenever there is a mention of predestination. They feel uncomfortable by it. To some and also to some unbelievers, it seems a ‘cheap’ way to get to heaven. Imagine a person believing he will get to heaven simply because he was predestinated to! But if we think predestination a ‘cheap’ way to get to heaven, how about grace? It seems to me a ‘cheap’ way to get to heaven too. To think Christ died for you and took upon Himself the punishment due to you and with that offering you are perfected forever and He is able to save you completely. It is much easier for us believers to believe the doctrine of salvation by grace than to believe in the doctrine of predestination.
But that there is a predestination of everything that takes place and of salvation in particular , let us go into the Bible:
*We read in Eph 1:3-5 that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world
Having being predestinated ‘’unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will’’,
* Matt 11:
25 ¶ At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
*2Thess.2: 13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because[b] God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation[/b] through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth
*Rev. 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life
*1Thess.5: 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
From these verses it is clear also that there is a predestination to damnation, we may rightly infer it, but it is also clearly stated in the Bible:
*Rom.9: 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
*1Peter2: 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
*Jude 4 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
*Examples of predestination can be found in the Joseph story. He told his brothers,
Gen.50:20 ‘’ But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive’’.
*It was said of the sons of Isaac, "the elder shall serve the younger" and it was so.
*Judas betrayed Christ as prophesied and for thirty pieces of silver.
*Peter denied Christ thrice before the cock crowed.
*Peter was asked to go fishing and to look into the mouth of the first fish he catches and there he would find a coin to pay taxes with, and it was so!
*In the time of the judges, Barak was told he would not have the honour of killing Sisera,it would go to a woman, and it was so.

From all I have said about predestination, it should normally surprise me if they are people who still would argue there is no such thing, but I won’t be surprised for many of such persons already know the verses and still argue against it.
The teaching of predestination is supported by God’s foreknowledge. God knows how this world would end and it cannot end in any other way. His knowledge of future events is certain.
He says in Isaiah 46:9,10
“ Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:”…
God knows now how we all lived our lives , how we all died, who would go to heaven, or hell.
Can man make choices? Yes!Does he have a will?Yes. Does he have freewill? No.
Man can make choices , and as far as he is concerned they are free, but he cannot act other than God wills and foreknows. The heart of the king it is said, is in his hands “ as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will”.—Prov.21:1. He can restrain evil or permit evil.
Yet in all of this, we are exhorted to seek Him, we are to preach the gospel to all. If it was the intension of God to save all, all would be saved. He chose to save some and not all men. Men do not convert themselves, neither are they born again of themselves the Spirit of God makes the difference in who are saved and who are not. We do not find God, rather we are found of God Gal.4:9.
Paul was converted without his seeking God, it is a testimony of the fact that we are saved , not by “freewill” or anything in us but for something in God.
But as we know not before our conversion if we are chosen or not, we should cry out to Him for our salvation because to Him it belongs.
Christ did not die to give us an opportunity to save ourselves, He died to save as many as the “ Lord shall call” Acts2:39.

And as many as He saves can never be lost, for to save them was His determination and He did not die in vain.

5solas: I am sorry if I seem to be spoiling for a fight. I should be more gracious really since apart from this freewill bit and predestination based on the foreknown actions of men, I agree with the rest of your posts.

Please go on with your teaching.

Please take note of the bolded.

Ihedinobi: Could you outline your position on free will, predestination and foreknowledge with a Biblical background, please? I'd like to see what you have received in your walk with Father regarding them.

Ok, I will put up something tomorrow, thanks.

frosbel: "For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified."- 1 Corinthians 2:2

They were men and subject to error.

I follow neither, Jesus is my model and scripture is the standard not the personal and often flawed interpretations of men !

MyJoe: But you are a man yet you strut around NL dishing out your own interpretations. Why should we take you seriously?

Ihedinobi: 5solas, I like to think that you among other commenters on this thread are a brother. Why then does it read like you are working an argument? I have my fill of arguments with atheists and agnostics on other threads. I am here to share the Word with my brothers and sisters. How can I do that when you think the piece you have is the whole and what I or anyone else here has is something other than the Word without even examining them closely? My brother, take it easy and learn with us.

As to your comment on free will, it doesn't follow that because man is free to choose or reject salvation, free will becomes ultimate. If that makes it so, what happens to the Giver of it?

I am sorry if I seem to be spoiling for a fight. I should be more gracious really since apart from this freewill bit and predestination based on the foreknown actions of men, I agree with the rest of *your post.

Please go on with your teaching.

*Edited.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Freewill = freedom to choose[/quote]If we accept this to be true , by extension it would mean freedom to choose to be saved or not to be saved. It would put salvation in Man's hands. What would now differentiate the lost from the saved? Freewill!

Well may we praise this human quality, freewill.

Ihedinobi: Yes it can, brother. If, like I have kept saying, Father knew that once He created, such and such would choose to be saved and be in fellowship with Him, then the very act of Creation would make Him ultimately the reason that they chose as they did. Therefore before ever they chose Him, He had chosen them. As the Scriptures say, "whom He foreknew, He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son..." Note the order. Predestination to this or that follows foreknowledge.

If the bolded is true, then salvation cannot at the same time be of grace.


I will say this here, if we hold this clear truth (that salvation is by grace-is not deserved) then we will be better able to grasp these issues relating to our salvation.

@Ihedinobi

Therefore, God can, because He is Love, give up His right of ownership...

If Love dictates Father's doings, then we can be sure that He can give up rights that would conflict with Love's purposes. This does not mean that those rights do not exist.

It is not so said however that He gave up any of His rights. He has rules to govern His creatures, but He Himself is governed by none. That is why He is the Creator.

Ihedinobi: Omniscience in a word, albeit a compound one, means all-knowing. How this all-knowing works is probably the question here. I think that however we tweak it or imagine it, it'll work out to God possessing all knowledge, even knowledge of the future. We humans are pretty good at predicting the future too, even if we're not always right. The reason is that things tend to occur in cycles and therefore repeat themselves even though in different colors and flavors. And these cycles have more or less fixed results, as if they respond to some sort of law. Now, part of God's work in creating should reasonably include establishing Principles upon which Creation would run, a perfect standard to which Creation must adhere to be what He intended. This would mean that He would know what would result from deviation from that Standard and what He would have to do to bring it back to His original intention.
We go on to His creation of sentient, intelligent beings. Their possession of intelligence implies their ability to choose. Father, by Nature, is Love and His reason for creating as we know from Paul's letters to the Ephesians and Colossians was to share Himself with beings other than Himself. Because He is Love, it is an impossibility for Him to create these beings without intelligence. The passage in 1 Corinthians 13 that describes Love's behavior says that Father's Moral Nature could not allow Him to create beings that had no choice but to accept His Gift of Himself. He must make them able to refuse the Gift as well to be true to His Own Nature. But being omniscient, He would know what choices they had (remember the principles upon which He establishes Creation) and because He knows their make-up, genetically and every other way (remember that He made them), He would know what choices they would gravitate to, and what they would ultimately choose. It is only consistent with His place as Creator that He knows how His Creation behaves under every possible condition. However, God's knowing how an intelligent being will choose in this regard or another does not at all mean that He fixed their choice. It only means that He knows what their choice would be. I'll come back to this.

If you are alluding that God chose those who He knew would choose Him, I think you are mistaken. This is because, in that regard, it cannot be that He chose anyone.

andromida: On predestination, to understand it properly i think we need to gain some understanding from the OT. The isrealites who left egypt were all predestinated to see the promise land but a whole generation were not allowed to see it because of unbelief despite Gods constant reassurances through signs and wonders, save a few who had faith in God and chose to trust in him.

My point here is they were predestinated but did not enter the promise land because of their choice of unbelief. Soon after the kingdom was thrown to all and sundry who would believe in Jesus christ as the promised messiah and obey his teachings.Jesus spoke many parables to buttress this point You can imagine how hard his teaching would have been for them they were waiting for a man of war to establish them as the chosen race instead they got a carpenters son telling them that the Kingdom is not of this world. This is the choice and rebellion of the pharisee they wanted God to enforce their own idea of how the kingdom should be established. Instead we have a new covenant.
Also see Romans 10:20.

Nevertheless the Bible says this in Rom 11:32 for God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all. The mysteries of God.

You got the meaning of predestination wrong.

According to the Encarta Dictionaries, it can be:

1. advance decision by God about events: in some religious beliefs, the doctrine that God, a deity, or fate has established in advance everything that is going to happen and that nothing can change this
2. God's decision who goes to Heaven: in some religious beliefs, the doctrine that God decided at the beginning of time who would go to heaven after death and who would not
3. act of foreordaining: the human or supposedly divine act of deciding the fate of people or things beforehand

Microsoft® Encarta® 2009. © 1993-2008 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

The fact that the thing predestined cannot be changed is the overriding idea.

What is your understanding or definition of "freewill"? The question is for those who use the term in particular.

Why do we always attach "free" to "will" when talking about our wills.We end up with "freewill". Invariably, when one contends there is no "freewill" we are surprised and accuse them of denying that man has a will.

@Ihedinobi

Glad I got here at last. I don't lean either way, bro.

Hmm.It remains to be seen.

But I have an understanding concerning it. But before I set about it, I wish to say that it really is a dangerous issue to handle therefore I might at some points refrain from dealing with matters that crop up relating to it.

Our Father is omniscient. That means He knew before He even set about creation those who were His. Did He somehow mark them in order to know them or know them and therefore mark them? Hehe...not important. As far as I know, if God chose to save some and not others, it's entirely His prerogative. If He chose to save everyone, His prerogative too.


However, I think that He chose before time such as would be saved. He, to use a provocative word, destined some to salvation and not others. But to safeguard that, I must go on to say that God never handed out a list telling any of us, "only such and such among you shall be saved", no. So even if He did mark some people out for Himself, only He knows who they are. We don't.

I think you are right on point at the bolded. God was not under any obligation to save any man and He could have justly chosen to save none as to save some.

How does that affect us? Well, in a sense it doesn't. We weren't told that only these people and not those will be saved. But we were certainly told that "if any man will..." he will be saved. As far as we know, from our own end, it's a question of choice. If we want to be saved, we will be. That simple. If we don't we won't be. Period.
[/quote}
It affects us this way, if we are in faith, we are assured of our salvation and do the good works required of us willingly not out of compulsion. We give all the glory of our salvation to Him .
If however we are not in faith, we are brought to the humble realization that our salvation is not “in our hands’’if we believe the truth about predestination. It is when we are thus humbled that we can put our faith in God.
Some people however may deride the teaching of predestination and other tenets of The Bible, their lot is clear (John 3:16, 18,36).
To buttress what you say, we don’t know who the elects (chosen) are and are to therefore preach the Word to everyone and everyone is expected to fall at His feet for mercy, confident that He would have mercy on them-not deny His existence.
[quote]How does predestination enter it from Father's end? I am really very afraid to say it so that those among us who are easily beguiled will not get caught in a snare. But perhaps I will brave it and trust them to the Lord. Predestination enters by grace. All of us without exception are sold under sin. We both do not know how to be free nor do we want to be free. This is our default state. For any of us to start reaching for God, something extraordinary has to happen to us. That stirring, that hunger that awakens us to more is God's grace at work to set us after Him.


But my observation is that it is only one part of the whole matter. Some will take hold of that grace and go on to know salvation. Others will trod it underfoot and pick a fight with God for waking them to their need for Him. What it is that sets one apart from the other is hard for me to say, but I dare to think it's further grace. How we respond to the first outpouring of grace determines how much more we receive.

It is grace that does it. That which makes us to defer from those who would be lost, is to be found in God , not ourselves (1 Cor. 4:7).

From childhood, I spent 21yrs trying to be a Christian. Read everything I could, behaved as well as I could, answered all the altar calls, fought all of Christ's battles (lol, really?) and all that, but shortly before my 21st birthday, I was tired and weary. Told God then to either save me Himself or leave me well enough alone to be whatever I wanted. Even though I said that, I told Him I really wanted to be His, but that I'd exhausted all my know-how and energy on the matter and had got nowhere so I didn't wanna try again. If I really was gonna get saved, it was gonna have to be Him entirely, with no help from me. I quit trying and essentially planned my life along the line of a hopeless sinner, but 11 days before my 21st birthday God broke in and I got born anew.

Was there input from me? Yeah. I'd decided not to ever again attend a Christian gathering because I knew so much scripture and was prone to debate, so if I went the assumption would be that I was a Christian too and all that moral burden would fall on me again. But the day I got saved, I found myself walking to the venue of a gathering of believers. I was way too early because I hadn't even intended to come so I hadn't tried to find out the time for the meeting. Seated there about a full hour before the meeting started, something switched on inside and I knew my Father'd found me. Have lived in that since then. Been in a number of crazy places since but never once worried that He'd left me.

I told the story to show that perhaps I was marked, I don't know, but I certainly wanted God and tried every way I knew how to get Him...and failed. But once He took hold of my own reaching hand, everything became perfect. So, as much as He predestinates we ourselves must choose. And like I tell my brothers and sisters, if you say you don't think you have the grace, well, ask for it, and if you lack grace for that, ask for grace to ask for grace. Grace reaches further back than our need goes.

Father has probably marked some people, at least, I think the Scriptures say so, but He also says that anyone who wants will have. And since we don't know whether or not we're marked, we should as much as possible reach for what He offers. It'd be against His character to refuse us.

That's my take.

To sum up we are saved because we believe in Christ. Those who believe were given to Christ, before the foundation of the world and in time,they are drawn to Him.

Ihedinobi: Please forgive me, you guys. I really did not know I would write so much. It just came pouring out. I hope that you can try and read it and perhaps contribute to it to further build us all up in the Love of the Lord.

Forgive you? I will rather commend you, the posts were so insightful.

First of All as regards the topic, I think I lean more towards the Arminian than the Calvinist view about predestination and freewill,I'll explain:


The first things I know about God is that He is ultimate, eternal, almighty, ever present, omniscient, He is just and He is merciful.

Now this is where our dilemma comes in:
if God knows the end from the beginning, which means he already predetermined that a particular number of people well be saved.
This view is evident when we read verses like;
“you do not choose me I chose you”, “before you were formed in your mother’s womb I knew you and has ordained you to be a prophet” etc.

But then again, God is just and has given each man a will of his own so that we can come to know him. The above statements seem to contradict God’s nature because if God knows everything how come he judges people since He already knows that they can’t help it. what is the use of freewill if one has absolutely no control over the future?

You assume here that we have freewills, we have wills, yes, but not free ones.

Now a common misconception about predestination and God’s omniscience is that the future is fixed and that time is just like a movie that God has already watched before so he knows exactly what is going to show up in the next scene and so as the actor, you’re not really doing anything new except playing out a script unable to control ourselves like puppets in the hands of a master puppeteer.

I don’t think this is the case. To me it is more like the omniscience of God resembles that of an infinitely intelligent chess master who is overseeing a large complex game of chess. From the first move he can predict every single consequence of the choices that will follow down to the end of the game so in a sense he has seen the whole movie before but in this case it doesn’t preclude the fact that the players are indeed making their own choices.

You have rightly observed above, God knowing the end from the beginning, this militates against what you are saying now.

That said, what then is the election and those that are predestined.

Jesus says “without me you can do nothing”. We are sinners and our hearts are desperately wicked. (Jeremiah 17:9), but then in our sins Christ died for us (Romans 5:8 ).
The death and resurrection of Christ brought to us the Holy Spirit which has now been poured out upon all flesh (emphasis on “all flesh”). Therefore the holy spirit is available to everyone - sinner or saint - and He convicts us of sin. (John16:8 ). It is now up to us to decide to submit our will to Him (Romans 8:14). The Holy Spirit does not force us to believe against our will.

This is why I disagree strongly with the Calvinist because he assumes that God has a set of chosen people will be saved no matter what and will stay saved no matter what. i.e. you irresistible grace.

I don’t think that is true but one thing I am sure of is that once a man truly knows God he cannot unknow Him. He may reject him though and this is why the Bible says about those who have tasted God and then turn around and trample His grace under foot have no atonement left for them (Hebrews10:26)

The beauty of God’s grace is that it allows us to have a direct relationship with God as a person.

God is not a grand puppeteer he’s more like a grand chessmaster. It don’t blame the grand chessmaster when you lose the game, you can only blame your poor choices.

I leave us with how Jesus answered the man who asked him a similar question as we are asking today

Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”
And He said to them,“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. Luke 13:23-24

I will simply state that it is clear that God chose some people. Why else would the scripture talk of anyone being chosen at all. Is it not laughable to say God chose all? If He chose all, then He chose none.

Note: please I'm trying to be careful not to put Scripture out of context just to make my point.
So I stand to be corrected: If I’ve made any mistakes please point them out to me through Scripture.

I am impressed by your understanding and sincerely hope to learn a thing or two from you at least.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Hmm, first of all, just to clarify something, I am simply a christian. I don't consider myself calvinist or arminian though I think I lean more towards the arminian point of view.[/quote]I am in agreement with this sentiment:

I should not take it at all amiss to be called a Calvinist[b] for distinctions sake[/b] though I utterly disclaim a dependence on Calvin-J. Edwards.

The highlighted part about a believer losing His salvation is very biblical. If you look at the parable of the sower, "he that thinketh he stand take heed lest he fall", or when Peter says to make your election sure in 2Peter 1:10 and in Revelations 2:4 when Christ calls the Ephesian church to return to her first love, you see that people actually can lose their salvation. The Irresistible grace dogma of the calvinist is precisely what I don't agree with because Irresistable grace to me is no longer grace but compulsion.

The verses below strongly disagree with the notion of a believer losing salvation:

Eph.1:3
3¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph.4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Somewhere in the thread you talk about prophecies being impossible without predestination. We can delve into that further but before that I'll ask you to read where my my position is on this so that you can give me a rebuttal in places where we don't agree. I'll paste my post here and you can read it and Ihedinobi's posts as well (he looks at it from the viewpoint of God's loving nature which is very interesting).
Perhaps you can point out places that deviate from scripture and we can work from there:

Thanks a lot , I am quite impressed with your posts. I will do that.

truthislight: mr Anony, come and do ur work, u are the op.
Tell this guy that we are not contesting prophesies and fulfilment here, but the understanding/explanation of the book of Romans 8;29,30.

Lol. Are we not talking about predestination? Must we restrict ourselves to the text above? More so when you question the KJV rendering?

@Annoy
Ur reference scripture is from one translation.
Unless u are saying that the word "destiny" is a greek word.
Do all translators accept that the word use there should be predestination?

Do you agree that at least some things are predestined? How can you tell which are predestined and which are not, if so?

truthislight: the issue is not about Jesus christ that was prophesied that he will come from heaven, but about human.

I will come back to the above post later,God willing.

Meanwhile,how about the case of Simeon unto whom it was revealed that he should not see death until he sees Christ?

How about John who was told the manner he was to die to glorify God?

How about the interpretation of Pharoah's baker and butler's dreams that came to pass as interpreted?

I could go on and on.

@Ihedinobi

Why do you agree with the Calvinist views and what Scriptures do you think they are consistent with?

Let us look at predestination, for example. It is opposed by Arminians as you can clearly see from this thread. Sometimes they give it a spin. Calvinists affirm it, see how The Bible supports them in the passage below:

1 ¶ Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,
2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.
3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.
4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,

6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.
8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.
9 ¶ When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was.
10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.
11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.
12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.
13 ¶ And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying[b], Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
16 ¶ Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
17 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.
19 ¶ But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
20 Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.
21 And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel.
22 But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:
23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.[/b]

---Matthew 2

Can we believe in the fulfillment of prophesy without believing the events concerning them to be predetermined?

I consider this passage one of my favourite passages.

@Ihedinobi

Welcome, 5solas. Glad to have you here. Why do you agree with the Calvinist views and what Scriptures do you think they are consistent with?

Thanks.

Let me say a little about how I came upon Calvinism.
When I became born again, I tried to find justification for the beliefs we hold as Christians. beliefs like Christ being the only way,His deity,the trinity e.t.c . I was satisfied by the answers I got (through reading of the Bible of course). But for the teaching that a believer can lose salvation (Arminianism), I found no justification. It stuck out from the other teachings like a sore thumb.It countered the teaching on assurance and made nonsense of it. I came to the point where I had to choose whether to believe what I was reading from the Bible (that Arminianism was not founded on scripture)or continue to believe like all about me that Arminianism was true. I chose to believe what I read in the Bible.