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For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30

For sometime now we have been arguing back and forth with atheists, agnostics, muslims e.t.c. and frankly I am quite wearied by it. Perhaps now we should look a bit into the bible and discuss about freewill and predestination.

There are two major schools of thought on this;

1. The Calvinist: The Calvinist basically believes that because of the fall, man is totally depraved and unable to save himself but that God from the beginning has chosen the people who will be saved. These elect will not be able to resist God's grace even if they try.

2. The Arminian: The Arminian believes also that man is depraved because of the fall but that one can come to Christ by rational faith i.e. that people exercises their freewill to get saved. The Arminian also holds that the Holy Spirit can be effectually resisted.

These are just the basics of the two schools of thought.
To get more information on these, you may want to look up the following:

http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/reformed-theology/arminianism/calvinism-vs-arminianism-comparison-chart/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

Please before anything, The bible is our final authority. Let us delve into this and God willing we may discover the nature of God's loving grace towards us.

Tell us which of the schools of thought you lean towards and why.

frosbel: I recently read a testimony from 7 Colombian Youth to whom Jesus gave a divine revelation of Hell. Jesus appeared to them on April 11, 1995 and took them on a tour of hell. While they were there, they saw people who were Christians, but who were damned to Hell for not giving tithes and offerings. Here is an excerpt from the testimony:

"We continued walking, seeing thousands and thousands of people. There were young people, adults and elderly people suffering in torment. We arrived in a place that looked like a big swimming pool of fire, with thousands of men and women inside of it. Each of them had metal plate on their chest that read: "I am here for not giving tithes and offerings" When I read that, I asked the Lord, "Lord, how can this be possible, that people are here for this reason??" The Lord responded, "Yes, because these people thought that tithes and offerings were not important, when my Word shows it as a command." In Malachi 3:8-9 it says "Will a man rob God? Yet you are robbing Me. But you say, 'How have we robbed Thee?' In tithes and offerings. You are cursed with curse, for you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you."

The Lord told me that when His people withhold their tithes, it hinders the work of the Lord, and then the Gospel is not preached. People in this place suffered a thousand times worse than others, because they knew the Word of the Lord and disobeyed."

What do you think? Could this testimony actually be true, or do you think it's made up? Do you think people who are Christians, but don't tithe will go to Hell when they die?

ijawkid: This is what trinitarians believe in....

""The Kenotic Doctrine claims that Jesus
emptied himself of his deity. Well, you can
simply read in the Chalcedon Creed that it
defines Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully
man at all times, without division, without
separation""

And so many say when Jesus said ""the Father is greater than I am"". Or when he said he don't know when d end will come,only the Father knows,that its because he emptied his Godhood or divinity up there in d heavens b4 coming to d earth...

But The trinity dogma,tells us that Jesus was fully God and fully man @ all times,and trinitarians can kill to always agree with this..........

Now the question is::::::::
don't these 2 doctrines contradict each other??

If Jesus emptied his divinity in heaven since he is almighty God how come do many still believe he was still fully God and fully man when on earth

But when its time to agree with d fact that Yahweh is greater than Jesus they claim Jesus left his memory and divinity in d heavens,so as not to know that Yahweh has been greater than him all d time......

So it is either trinitarians choose d trinity dogma or d kenotic doctrine....

The 2 can't be merged..

Goodmorning every1

Goshen360: I do NOT judge and if I judge, I judge righteously. One problem people like you have in the body of Christ (I don't mean insult) is that, you "think" everything preached by "famous" evangelist is truth and sound teaching. When we expose or refute such teachings, you simple say we are judging - The reason is that, people like you had been predicted to be among those that CANNOT withstand SOUND doctrines in the last days and that will heap up teachers for themselves to hear what you want to hear, NOT what God wants you to hear. If not so, you wont call this thread judgmental. Please, can you tell us what is judgmental in what I have just said and for people to be aware of his teachings. I don't have problem if he is one of your favourite preachers, what I care about is, we have the mandate as Christians to defend our faith and preserve the truth.

Goshen360: Do you know even Satan transform as angel of light? If as powerful as Apostle Paul is, more than all the new age teachers put together will teach and some people called the Bereans will still search the scriptures before they approve his teachings, who the heck you think any preacher of today is that we cannot expose or refute his heresies? The truth of the word of God that I stand to defend is that, GRACE OF GOD IS NOT A LICENSE TO CONTINUE TO SIN. Anyone who teaches or preaches any other Gospel than what the Apostles and Jesus preached, let him/her be accused. I am NOT a denominationist, I am a bible teacher and I prove ALL things by the word of God.

rhemaplus: Yea its true dat he erred in dat. He also preaches once saved forever saved which is also wrong. He emphasizes on revelation but revelation is nt a passive thing. I like him as a person, he is a good teacher, have learnt a lot 4rm him but i'm nt a blind follower. Take a good sieve n get wht u want.

Goshen360: I was listening to a known popular Television evangelist by the name of Joseph Prince and guess what, he said[b] "Heaven does not record the sins of believers even though you sin"[/b] Am like WHAT! This is a Grace perverted Gospel.

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 4, Kjv

Jude 1:4
Contemporary English Version (CEV)

4 Some godless people have sneaked in among us and are saying, “God treats us much better than we deserve, and so it is all right to be immoral.” They even deny that we must obey Jesus Christ as our only Master and Lord. But long ago the Scriptures warned that these godless people were doomed.

Jude 1:4
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)

4 Some people have slipped in among you unnoticed. Not long ago they were condemned in writing for the following reason: They are people to whom God means nothing. They use God’s kindness as an excuse for sexual freedom and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Romans 6:1 Kjv

logicboy: The antichrist is another failed doctrine of christians. Christians call leaders who do not follow their doctrine, "antichrist". Antichrist is just another insult that can be used on non-christians or christians who dont follow the mainstream propaganda.

Here are lists of people that have been called the antichrist

-Muhammad- Who has died over a 1000 year ago
-Saddam Hussein
-Bill Gates
-Obama


Bonus; Hitler was never called the antichrist. Why? He was in cahoots with the Catholic church
It's only in recent times in TV comedy that he is now seen as a failed antichrist.


So, please shut up about the anitchrist already! Are talking snakes and zombie Jesus not enough bedtime stories for you lot?

hisblud: Eternal Security must be the main thing, all the scriptures above you quoted are in the bible but i believe it is taken out of CONTEXT to mean ETERNAL INSECURITY. Thinking through, My Redeemer cannot be a schizoid and therefore this is my conclusion: I would rather believe in Eternal security and ask like paul, in the prayer of the Ephesians that the eyes of my understanding being enlightened to understand the gray "scriptures" than believe in eternal insecurity and have a fear (wrong fear and unbelieving), unloving relationship to God.

frosbel: No objections !!

May I make a difference between Christiasn who err and are restored but who hate their sin and mourn over it to repentance , and then those who wallow in it , love it and make no attempts to dissociate from the same vile acts that sent Jesus to the Cross.

frosbel: Religion of 'peace '

13 ¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility.
Quoadea quoeconcernunt papae dignitatem, auctoritatem, seu potestatem, et infallibilitatem.

#1. "The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God."
#1. "Papa tantae est dignitatis et cesitudinis, ut non sit simplex homo, sed quasi Deus, et Dei vicarius."

#13. "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions."
#13. Hinc Papa triplici corona coronatur tanquam rex coeli, terre et infernoram."

#18. "As to papal authority, the Pope is as it were God on earth, Sole sovereign of all the faithful of Christ, chief king of kings, having a plentitude of unbroken power, entrusted by the omnipotent God to govern the earthly and heavenly kingdoms."
#18. " Deveniendo ad Papae auctoritatem, Papa est quasi Deus in terra unicaus Christifidelium princeps, regum omnium rex maximus, plenitudinem potestatis continens, cui terreni simul, ac coelestis imperii gubernacula ab omnipotenti Deo credita sunt."

#30. "The Pope is of so great authority and power, that he is able to modify, declare, or interpret even divine laws."
#30. "Papa tantae est auctoritatis et potestatis, ut possit quoque leges divinas modificare, declarare, vel interpretari, ad num."

Source: Lucius Ferraris, “Papa,” art. 2, in his Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica. (“Handy Library”), Vol. 5, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition, column 1823, Latin.

Here are the relevant Scanned pages from Ferraris' Prompta Bibliotheca for those who would like to see the original Latin text of the above quotes. [url]http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/prompta.htm[/url]

If the link doesn't work and I suspect the editor has a problem with the ~ then just copy and paste the below txt into the address bar.

aloha.net/~mikesch/prompta.htm

hisblud: Are this the only scriptures on eternal INSECURITY that you can come up wit? Please add more?

cyrexx: 1. you said we should think about this and you didn't leave us anything worth thinking about.
2. if poverty is a choice why are most nigerians (who are incidentally very religious) still poor. cant they simply "look ahead" and see as far as they can see. how come only the prosperity preachers have this ability to "look ahead"
3. why do you think God was talking about money when He was talking to Moses. nigerian prosperity preachers are very good at interpreting scriptures to mean just about anything they want it to mean.
4. if poverty is a choice. then you can choose anything that happens to you. you can choose to be born to a rich family, choose to live in the best economy in the world, choose that rain will not disturb your plans etc. is that true? i need ur answer.

mkmyers45: Fear is a pillar of any faith-belief doctrine..

unphilaz: this is if i am the originator of THE salvation. This idea emphasises man's effort against the all complete finished work of the blood.

italo: If salvation can't be lost, why was Paul worried about being disqualified? Even though he was "saved" at the time he was writing scripture.

Why did he always "HOPE" for salvation?

How can you be certain, when St. Paul wasn't?

italo: : If salvation can't be lost, why was Paul worried about being disqualified? Even though he was "saved" at the time he was writing scripture.

Why did he always "HOPE" for salvation?

How can you be certain, when St. Paul wasn't?

italo: Leave them alone. They say their names are in God's book of life and can never be erased regardless of what they do. Leave them alone.

Joagbaje: Yes a christian can't go to hell but It's possible for someone who had been born again before to end up in hell and be damned . That's why the bible says to work out ones salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

9 ¶ But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

frosbel: "But we are not like those who turn away from God to their own destruction. We are the faithful ones, whose souls will be saved." - Hebrews 10:39

Image123: "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. " (Matthew 24:22).
If salvation cannot be lost, those days need not be shortened. The elect could well live 969years and not lose nothing.
Let these sayings sink deep in your ears, salvation can be lost,

italo: : If salvation can't be lost, why was Paul worried about being disqualified? Even though he was "saved" at the time he was writing scripture.

Why did he always "HOPE" for salvation?

How can you be certain, when St. Paul wasn't?

bigd4050: @ i.chucka and 5solas...thanks for the support guys. I'm glad I'm not the only one who can see and recognize these truths. They are hard and difficult to understand, and sound harsh, but those that do understand have a deeper relationship with God and are able to live out these truths with more confidence, knowing that God is sovereign and his will is going to be done. Appreciate it guys!

bigd4050: [b]If someone ever turns from God[b], like 5solas (I think it was him, it was a great point) said, God NEVER KNEW THEM. They can "leave faith", but they never really had it to begin with. You can only serve one master. You don't suddenly just switch from serving God to serving flesh. The whole time, the person who departs had some part of their lives that they are unwilling to give up to God, and hold onto that sin. They depart when they longer want to hold up the facade of living righteously. I think about it like this: they were a part of the a church, but then they left the church for a terrible reason...lets say they got corrected on something. If they use some dumb excuse like that to leave, they were never really a part of that church. In bodily presence they were, but not in spirit. Same thing with faith and God.

italo: See jamb question! Ok, eternal life means life eternal.

John 3:16 doesn't say that one cannot lose eternal life. Give us another verse!

Joagbaje: Yes a christian can't go to hell but It's possible for someone who had been born again before to end up in hell and be damned . That's why the bible says to work out ones salvation.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Remember what paul said Con earning his own salvation.

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. .

Also remember the words of Jesus .

Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

frosbel: Amen.

"Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." -
Revelation 21:27