₦airaland Forum

Abagworo:
Ogene is Nri, Anambra State. The Nri crowns both Oba Bini and Atta Idah

Please provide sources and evidence

TAO11:
Let here not be flooded with the bitter-pill syndrome, Amen! Lol.

(1) It took an average 5 months' one-way trip traditionally from Uromi to Benin City (C.G. Okije cited in A.F.C Ryder).

Then logically [something Binis Naira-landers lack], it took an average of 20 moons' one-way trip traditionally from Benin City to IFE.

The Math & Logic have been detailed above. And Logic /Math are no respecter of people's emotions.
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(2) The cross piece was NOT said to have have being casted and sent from Benin to confirm the Ooni.

Instead, the text clearly shows it to be the other way round; i.e. casted and sent to Benin for confirmation.

As such, one of such piece casted and sent to Benin should be necessarily sought in Benin (not Ife).

And even if found there, it must have been put to use in connection with Ife/Yorubaland, not elsewhere.

Interestingly, one of such piece was not only found in Benin; it was also used on a daily (by Benin kings) in connection to Ile-Ife & Yoruba land.

This has also been detailed above. Moreover, Ife arts have also shown evidence of the knowledge of cross iconography in ancient Ife — as proven above.
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(3) First of all, there was no such thing as a Benin garrison in Lagos; that illusion was thoroughly debunked here.

Now to refuting the thoughtless bungle of equating a Lagos-Benin (1600s) trip with a Benin-IFE (1400s) trip:


(A) The Benin-IFE (1400s) trip is a trip on land through the forested interior. While the Lagos-Benin 1600s trip (based on Ulsheimer's account) is a trip on water via the Atlantic coast and the Ughoton channel. INCOMPARABLE

(B) The Benin-IFE (1400s) forest walk does requires and allows for days, weeks, or months of campings & resorts along the journey. The Lagos-Benin (1600s) boat cruise does not.

(C) The distance covered per unit of time by walking as a group is in no logical way comparable to the distance covered per unit of time by paddling as a group. One permits division of labour, the other doesn't.


There is just no basis whatsoever for comparison. The centuries are different, the channel (and of course means) of the trip are also different. One is way more efficient than the other. The comparison is simply dumb.

The traditional walking trip from Benin to Ife have already been detailed out above based on traditional data and other facts and figures. And Ife fits in with absolute practical precision.

Logic & Math are no respecters of people's emotions.

Peace.

I also read that terracotta in Ife has cross symbols but there's no evidence for this please kindly provide images and it still doesn't make sense that it took over a year to go from Benin City To Ife a time of 5 months would make more sense even if they're moving slowly in any case I read a journal on Jstor and it says ambassadors normally wer egiven cat whisker markings after visiting the Oghane and terracotta like this has on;y been sighted once in Ife meanwhile in Nupe and igala land it is used and seen a lot more i'm not disputing that it's not the Ooni but I just want to look at every single possibility

Hueman:
M.O.P is against commusim? I hope this is a joke??

It is more on the socialist side but even there it isn't strongly socialist they just want all Nigerians to have access to basic amenities such as free education, free healthcare, electricity, water, good roads and housing and socialism is the easiest way to ensure that everybody gets access to these. Communism can never work

TAO11:
Regarding the word “east”, read the devastating refutation below.


Make Sure to Read This:

Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language].

The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample.

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife.

In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá — i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”.

For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:

(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.

(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 85., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).

This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source(s) are Benin spokespersons of their king.

Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).

Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”

Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this overlord) are early maps.

There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Orguene annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.

These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.

In conclusion, contrary to your ignorant assumption, there are writings from the early 1500s (on the basis of interviews of Bini representatives in the late 1400s) which references the king of Ife & his overlordship on Benin kingdom and other places.
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Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.

The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.

The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament help art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.

What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.

Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years].

~ Calvocoressi & David, “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979, p. 19.

For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:

(A) W. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc

(B) F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.

(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.

In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.

In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

Again, this conclusion which I have inevitably reached is not mine. This is simply the conclusion of historical scholarship. This can be seen in the following works:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A beautiful summary of this conclusion of scholars of
African history (some of whose names and works are listed above) is shown in the page below from Adam Knobler (2016), p.47.

Peace!

All great but where are the brass crosses that the so called Ooni or Oghene gave to the king and emissaries and that he wore himself in archaelogical digs in Ife?

macof:
That's what you get when you rely too much on European accounts. I know Bini people here who act as if anything tye Europeans wrote is exactly as is written and what they didn't write did not exist.

The two biggest clues is that
1. this ruler is referred to as if the Oba of Benin pays him homage, not necessarily a subject but a figure that he seeks blessing from as one who even the writer imagines to be the most powerful ruler in that part of the world.
The only person that would be in such position is the Ooni.. Forget modern Nigerian ethnopolitics, oba of Benin and Ooni of Ife used to be very close

2. Ogane seems to be a Portuguese corruption of Oghene. Oghene which is in turn a Bini corruption of Oghone - Southeast Yoruba dialect of Owoni or Ooni

Oghene is the Bini word for their God and looking at evidence from scholars it doesn't seem to be Ife or even the ooni as the source it is more likely that the origin is of Nupe or Igala and not of yoruba reasons for not choosing Ife include the lack of brass crosses in excavations at Ife but brass crosses have been found in igbo land and especially in nupe and igala land so those are places are more likely to be the origin but the next step is to find the city, why the Oghene had that power and why they lost it and also if Oghene is even a person and not a religious site or metaphor for their God

samuk:
250 league is Dutch/German league which is about 900 miles.

The location is east

The travelling time is 20 moons or 20 months (almost 2 years journey)

If this location existed, it would have certainly been outside Nigeria.

So likely in Cameroon then? But where in Cameroon is significant and had links to Nigeria?

Blakjewelry:
Can you share a link to the full story? I haven't read anything similar before

What you see there is basically as much as I know there's a ruler 250 leagues east of Benin who is the most powerful in the Guinea whether it's a priest or an actual king is unknown or whether it is a misunderstanding and the Oba was saying their God lies in the east as in where the sun rises or whether the Oba meant West but instead said east because of some religious belief is all unknown till today nobody knows who or where the Oghane is and there is still little physical evidence of Brass Crosses anywhere in Nigeria but i'm sure someone somewhere will soon find a clue to this query

I am reopening this thread because there is still no answer and I need to know I have read on Jstor and it doesn't seem to be ife the present of such a cross doesn't show up in Ife artefacts so i'm starting to see a potential Igbo or Nupe origin for the Ogane please don't turn this into a tribalist thread

1486 João de Barros: Pre-Protuguese Christian influence in Benin - Ibid., 126-7

Among the many things which the King D. João learnt from the ambassador of the king of Benin, and also from João Afonso d'Aveiro, of what they had been told by the inhabitants of these regions, was that [b]to the east of Beny at twenty moons' journey which according to their account, and the short journeys they make, would be about two hundred and fifty of our leauges there lived the most powerful monarch of these parts, who was called Ogané. Among the pagan chiefs of the territories of Beny he was held in as great veneration as is the Supreme Pontif with us. In accordance with a very ancient custom, the king of Beny, on ascending the throne, sends ambassadors to him with rich gifts to announce that by the decease of his predecessor he has succeeded to the kingdom of Beny, and to request confirmation. To signify his assent, the prince Ogané sends the king a staff and a headpiece of shining brass, fashioned like a Spanish helmet, in place of a crown and sceptre. He also sends a cross, likewise of brass, to be worn round the neck, a holy and religious emblem similar to that worn by the Knights of the Order of Saint John. Without these emblems the people do not recognize him as lawful ruler, nor can he call himself truly king. All the time this ambassador is at the court of Ogané, he never sees the prince, but only the curtains of silk behind which he sits, for he is regarded as sacred. When the ambassador is leaving, he is shown a foot below the curtains as a sign that the prince is within and agrees to the matters that he has raised; this foot they reverence as though it were a sacred relic.[/b] As a kind of reward for the hardships of such a journey the ambassador receives a small cross, similar to that sent to the king, which is thrown round his neck to signify that he is free and exempt from all servitudes, and privileged in his native country, as the Knights are with us.

AntiBalaka:
It was down that same river that Jewish merchants searching to purchase some fine Igbo specimen made their way into the interior.

They went hunting for ''black wood''.

Which Jewish slave traders there were only British and Portugese in Nigeria

AntiBalaka:
Ebonyi, from old Latin meaning 'black wood'.

Ebony is the anglicized version of Ebonyi.

The region referred to as Ebonyi today in present day Nigeria was a hunting ground for Jewish slave traders who dealt with the Arochukwu slave raiders.

The Jewish slave traders described their cargo as black wood which were piled up against each other side-by-side in the hauls of their slave ships.

It's the name of a river the anglicized version of it there were never any jewish slave traders who went inland and all people gotten from the Igbo area were considered red or lightskin

oyatz:
You probably assume that Tall buildings (3-4 storey buildings) is the only thing about planned cities.



In reality, many Nigerian cities are planned but the implementation of these plans became difficult due to Leadership failures.

I never said shit about planning I said highrises should be built in more Nigerian cities instead of these bungalows or small compounds for one family because Nigeria has an acute housing problem

aribisala0:
What is the water strategy in Onitsha

The transport Strategy


The Waste management Strategy

2hy would anyone take his family to such a filthy place?

Continue wasting your time no one will entertain your trolling

highrises are a model for other Nigerian cities and that's a fact

RenaissanceGuy:
There's no single planned city in the south east or west (aside cities in Lagos) unless you're judging by the standard of 1950s .
If you want to know what a 21st century city looks like, check out photos of Randburg, Sandton, Cape Town (all in South Africa), Victoria Island (Lagos), Maitama, Wuse, Wuye (Abuja) and get back to me.

Randburg?

IvarDboneless:
Aside known political criminals we already know in Nigeria give me names of autocrats who are behind the scenes or in support of MOP.. we need to take back this country from these criminals always on sirens on our road.

We're only bringing in new people soon all the other parties will join us from AAC to YPP to APCN etc. But for now we only have pioneers in Nigerian politics

MrColdsweat:
One word: communism...

We don't support communism.

Everybody viewing this please spread the word at work, in the market, in the keke napep, in the danfo where ever tell the people MOP is the party that will liberate the Nigerian people and bring us the development we want. From December till today I would estimate we have about 20k which isn't a great number but it's still something but together as one we can easily increase the numbers imagine if every one of those 20k got 5 supporters

I standing here have already brought in 3 and yesterday on twitter I brought in 4 if I can do it so can everybody else together as one progressive body of Nigerians we can build our nation

KingOKON:
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Imagine not even Old oyo it is Ijebu or Ife, what were you taught in primary school about assumptions?

Old Oyo is too far inland for the British and technically so is Ife only the Ijebu were at the coast

TAO12:
(1) They Portuguese made contact with Ijebu directly since the 1500s — not through anyone.

(2)

Lagos is not a person now is it? I said that the location in which they met the Ijebu was Lagos

TAO12:
You’re giving the impression that they penetrated into the interior of Africa from 1470 onwards. That’s a big, fat, huge LIE.

Show me the European who penetrated from near the coast into the interior of Africa from the 1470s to the 1790s.

And if you can’t find one (of course you can’t), then a sane person would read up to understand why the Europeans didn’t dare penetrate deep from the coast areas into the deep forest interior until the late 1790s/early 1800s.

Yes the Benin kingdom of the time was from the coast of Ughoton and goes as far as probably Auchi.

So, the Europeans once in a while visit the capital city while remaining at Ughoton most times for their trade.

The Europeans traded with anyone (as long as they’re not too far off from the coast — whether it’s a village or it’s a kingdom).

Some of the many villages not for off from the coast whom Europeans traded with in the early centuries are: Cape-Palmas, Cape-Three Points, Komenda, etc.

At this point, a sane mind would ponder why they had trading relationships with places not far off from the coast (whether village or kingdom) from the west side to central Africa; but never daring to penetrate too deep into the deeply forested interior.


It would be MyTh IF and only IF the Benin king himself is a MyTH — because the conversation with the Bini ambassador(s) is about who is the most powerful king in the Guinea forest. And the answer given by the Bini ambassador is:

Ọghẹnẹ (classical Bini rendition), Ọghọni (the classical Yoruba rendition), Ogané/Hooguanee (the Portuguese rendition given in the texts).

Also, the conversation about this most powerful king continued for centuries. The Ooni was finally met in the 1800s at a time when Europeans could now reach the deepest parts of the West African forest interior.

LMAO! No, east is NOT west, and west is NOT east. And I never said it is.

The clarification from the consensus of the scholars of historical scholarship, instead, is as follows:

Ife is known by the epithet “ibi ojumo ti n mo wa” (i.e the place from whence the dawn comes) throughout the Gulf of Guinea; not only in Benin kingdom.

Refer to the oba’s dawn prayers where he expresses the connection between Ife in particular (and Yoruba land in general) with the dawn/rising-sun.

Thus, the description of the Ogané’s base (as the place from where the sun rises) as given by the Binis (to the Portuguese) is not a geographical/literal description; but rather religious/reverential.

However, the Europeans whom this description was given to received same non-literal description from a literalist European point of view. Hence the presence of the word “east” in the early Portuguese’s writings.

In addition to this clarification, maps drawn during the same period by other Europeans (e.g. the French) clearly shows the “Ogane’s Dominion” on the western side of Benin (over a vast expanse of the Nigeria area and beyond). Now you gerrit.

Get a grip.

Peace! ✌

I would have agreed with you had I just not searched Oghene and when I searched it says Oghene is the supreme God of the Urhobo and Isoko people so are you sure about your sources?

gregyboy:
No European penetrated africa prior to 1470 AD... But when they did they visited all vital useful areas,

Just the way the Itsekiris introduced a vital country benin kingdom to Portuguese same way the benin introduced the oghene to europeans, the europeans would have visited but they knew the benins were talking on some. myth they were even giving the location by binis to the east which was opposite of ife....

But you say east is west and west is east..

I nor know wetin i go do again

But you my friend on some ogene strong shit...
You want to turn myth to truth...



KingOkon

They made contact with the Ijebus through Lagos in the 1600s and prior to that they were told by those in the Mali Empire of a large and powerful empire in the forest and we now know that they were either talking about the Ijebu or Ife you cannot discount that fact

kestolove95:
Am not surprise it was hosted in Beijing china

It was hosted in Tokyo Japan actually

The medals are like 98% silver then they just lazily put on a thin layer of gold it would be no surprise if the surface material actually comes off from basic scratches

PROVERBZ:
quoting so that I can watch later. So ignore. For those who don't know this road is close to alaro city too.

Yep it's supposed to be one of the main access roads to Alaro City and the new Lekki port hopefully by or before 2025 a railway would be built from the port through alaro city to Ijebu Ode and another one to link with mainland lagos from Lekki port

Saddamochieng00:
You really don't know what you're talking about. Liverpool signing Kounde for 80 mil

I meant Konate I always confuse their names for some reason

Broveens42:
It still doesn't justify that parts of the so called city Abuja has slum areas which we don't have

There are slums in Onitsha and every single city in Sub Saharan Africa, Igbo land is not an exception

NaMe4:
Any link on Instagram?

Oh yes of course

Instagram: @mopcentre

Twitter: @movementofthep1

The link is in both of their bios

abouzaid:
i would surely join from Anambra.

Great news we set up base in Awka about 2 weeks ago more updates will come up in Anambra state soon for now please spread the word we're a grassroot movement and any help from the people would be amazing

Saddamochieng00:
Are you living in an alternate universe? Arsenal has outspend City, United , PSG, Bayern ,Chelsea and Juventus yet they're battling it out with Norwich and Burnley for last place honours.

Ben White £58m, Odegaard £35m, Ramsdale £28m, Lokonga £17m, Tavares £8m= £146m

Messi + Sergio Ramos + Aguero + Ronaldo + Varane + Donnaruma + Wijnaldum = £60m

They didn't only sign one player now did they? Liverpool signed Kounde for 80m, Chelsea signed Lukaku for 110 million along with a few other players

tollyboy5:
How can I join the party?

This is front page worthy

There's a telegram group where most conversations take place i'll paste the link below and once you join ask for the registration document link fill it in and you've become an official member of MOP


/mopnigeria

I'm not sure why the link isn't appearing properly an alternate access point is through their twitter account @movementofthep1

DubaiLandLord:
Is this not the same name is father named his political party?

Keep RIP Abami Eda.

Yep same name and same ideology

Saddamochieng00:
Arsenal are the biggest spenders in the market yet they haven't scored a single goal or won a game and we're in matchweek 3 Poor Arteta I aint seeing him making it past September.

By the way who you betting on to win the league this season?

How are they the biggest spenders are you stupid or just ignorant,

Chelsea, Man U, Man City and Liverpool all spent more then Arsenal this year I can't remember the last time Arsenal was the largest spender in the premier league

illmatic101:
Movement of which people? The people that are not serious. Abegi...

Who says we're not serious we're very ready to take over Nigeria from these crooks called APC and PDP