@Babyosisi,
Beautiful submission and well delivered for a "newly-wed" , by the time you are "old wed" you must have written a couple of books on marriage; been married for 5 yrs and I totally agree with all your points, in fact I'm also learning from your words .

@Observer01,
I hope you will not "observe" your entire life away, when peoples like Davidylan are making a difference in the world.
Dont you see how intelligent and active the guys is, contributing on politics, religion, sports, etc while you are busy "observing." Dont you know Naraland is a social-networking forum: Social Networking is a major topic of discussion now at World Development Forum in Davos (have you ever heard of that?) Oh, it is paining you he is not on your side, yeye fellow. You are the one who needs to find something to do rather than observing your life away!

NB: Your poorly constructed sentences shows you need to be more active, maybe your grammar and spelling will improve, olodo rabata, oju eja lo mo je (x3)!!

belloti:

Its now very clear we are left with a narrow choice between Buhari and Yaradua. Looking at their background, i d rather go for Buhari.

@Belloti,
My friend; welcome back to the politics forum. You've been absent for some time now because of the demise of the 'presidential ambition' of your favourite mallam Gov of Zamfara State (actually forgot his name, imagine!). Anyway, nice to have you back for further discussion on how to extend the proverbial "handshake across the Niger" between us young nigerian progressives regardless of our tribe or religion, abi?

Now to the issue of Yar-adua or Buhari, can you 'progressively' tell this gathering why you will rather 'go for Buhari'. That will be a good denominator to base any further discussion or cross-evaluation. Or you just prefer him because he is 'Mallam Buhari? His background as a military leader? not likely, right?
In your response, consider things like: achievements in previous or present leadership positions vis-a-vis formulation and implementation of pro-equity policies; evidence of achievements in poverty reduction; employment generation; tolerance of multi-culturalism; resource mobilisation; combating religious extremism; and other evidence-based indices of previous achievements in governance. Do this before you start your familiar sing-song of "let's give Buhari a chance", my friend!

@babyosisi, davidylan,
Dont mind Seun: he removed my post and just "banned" himself for one hour. You can see why a lot of unexposed young nigeria business men don't go big-time like myspace.com or Google. Because small success like this makes them develop what is called "God-complex."

@Seun,
ban yourself again and see if I really care! You seem to have one set of rules for one group and another set for some others. That's retrogressive!

@Babyosisi, Shahan et al,
visit this link http://www.levitt.com/faqs.html#sabbath and you will have quite interesting and insightful answers to a lot of question which we've debated before provided by Zola Levitt - a Jewish Christian, well known Messianic Jewish Bible teacher and Middle East commentator who was brought to the Lord in 1971. Check out especially the section on "Christian Holidays" for additional scripture backed insights into SDA (a la Bobbyaf), and other sections.

muske:

Do you know that in all fairness that most of these Hadith you have been supplying were rejected by scholars?
Imam Bukhari the collector of the narration lived in a period over 230 years after the death of the prophet. Out of the 600,000 Hadith (narrations) that he collected, which were initially attributed to the prophet, he threw out as fabrication 592,700 of them and kept only 7300 as being genuine.
They were further reduced to 2762 Hadith after repetition.

@muskeke,
This is very anti-cerebral in your attempt to display 14th century islamic wisdom. If out of 600,000 hadiths initially attributed to the rasul, it has been reduced to just 2762:
(1) on what basis were the reductions made since the scholars were not alive at the time of muhammed?.
(2) what's the probability that the remaining 2762 are not as fake as the rest? (very high if you calculate it statistically usign the table of normal distribution )
(3) Among the remaining 2762, you now have the weak hadiths and the strong ones, abi? flipping deceptive jokers

@Davidylan,
Well, I will advise you not to waste your time in discussing such a highly cerebral topic with "muskeke" (i.e Israel vs Palestine). I don't mean to be rude, but I am sure you know it's perfectly logical to assess your opponent before you engage in such a historical discussion. I think Gist or Belloti would be appropriate. Just imagine discussing such a topic with babs787 (the male version of "muskeke"; I can see you laughing. Now you know what I mean.

muske:

EVEN THOSE ACCUSED OF PHEDOLPHIA NEVER HAVE SIMILAR RAMPANT CASES

chei! why not make use of "spell check" function graciously provided before you post. I believe you meant "PAEDOPHILIA."

Seun:

How do you know that Jesus wasn't gay? What if the apostles just covered it up?

Okay, this is interestingly bereft. How do we know that you, Seun, are not gay probably still in denial. Probably you have evidence of Jesus being gay, why not share it with the world and see if it stands; or you just make statements now simply for the purpose of talking. Or do you just label now simply by thinking it up? [By the way, the Rasul is confirmed (not accused) of being a paedophile from the evidence in the book called Quran].

belloti:

Dr Havila. In Islam if one abandoned his faith and practise something else, its called Ridda and its a punisheable offence. Although an unbeliever cannot be force to join Islam, conversion from islam to paganism or anything else is viewed seriously. Am sure this may provoke so many replies but that is the beauty of Islam.

Belloti, Belloti,
So why did you not go on to complete your very first sentence to show the "beauty" or the "beast" of Islam? You are probably ashamed of the words, that is your conscience telling you something is wrong with what you believe. Let me help you: "In Islam, if one abandoned his faith and practise something else, its called Ridda and its a punishable offence, punishable by DEATH"!! Isn't it?
But I thought the Quran also said "There is no compulsion in religion". If there is no compulsion in religion, why then should "conversion from Islam to paganism or anything else be viewed seriously" as to deserve prescribing death?
Dont you see inconsitencies or confusion in Islam(?); dont you see the bondage of the beast that Islam is(?)
While you are very sure your post showing the wickedness in Islam will appropriately provoke many responses; you still go ahead to say "that is the beauty of Islam"; no that is not the beauty of Islam; IT IS THE BONDAGE OF ISLAM. Think, my friend, think. (In fact, I miss Olabowale)

mrpataki:

But really, I have seen adulterated bibles here in Nigeria by malicious set of people, where they tried to portray loads of heresies from the real bible.Thanks once again.

Yes, that's why I said I understand what you mean; but I am trying to focus on the context of 'muskeke's' query.
As for those peoples peddling the 'heresies from the bible' God has alread declared his judgement for them in Revelations 22:18-19;
"For I testify unto everyman that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and from the things which are written in this book."

@Fisayo,
Quite interesting; because you just showed the struggle of a lot of us. Looking desperately for God when He is with you, by you, through you and in you. Why looking for what is not lost? What do I mean?
How can you ask "Does God really care" when you Fisayo, and others just demostrated the Love and Care of God for that man? Have you not heard or read in 1 John 4:6-7 that:  "Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love"?
His epilepsy is not of God nor is it from God; but the Love you've shown him is from God and it overcomes all things through faith in Jesus Christ.
Yes, God does care! and He has used you, Fisayo, to prove it. So praise God, my friend!

mrpataki:

5. There are a lot of adulterated bible versions out there, but if you want the authentic one, I would suggest a New King James Version precisely. So not all the versions are 100% complete.

@mrpataki,
while I support and understand you, I wish to add that there is absolutely no adulterated bible version; only "adulterated" readers.
If you check out 1 John 5:7 (preferably check verses 6 - 12) in all the versions 'muskeke' listed above, you will see that they are all saying the same thing expressed in the King James version; but using more insightful understanding of the revelation of God in translation/transcribing process. Greek manuscripts are unanimous in stating that Verse 7 ends with "record." The longer versions of verses 7-9 made their way into the traditional printed Greek Testament (TR) and thus into the King James version due to the influence of the Latin Bible and four late Greek manuscripts. The point of John's original version was that the witnesses described in 1 John verse 6 comprise one unified testimony of the veracity of the Gospel. It is this insight which in turn paves the way for verses 7-9.
So you can see, it is easy for any "adulterated" reader like muske to arrive at the erronous conclusion of "later insertion by the church" because of poor wisdom and understanding of the scriptures and the history of Bible translations. But for all it's worth, let's keep on encouraging more of such 'discoveries' from the Holy Bible, the more thay read the more the chances of the light coming. Bless!

@Belloti
My friend, what do you mean by "Havila committed Ridda recently" under the Glorious Koran topic (which has now been appropriately locked because of Davidylan versus "weasel" neelsen war) I investigated it and found story of Abu Bakr's wahala with some peoples who rejected Islam after the death of Muhammed!!


@Nuru,
You are sounding so desperately illogical and pathetic with all due respect. So the verse you quoted from the Koran supported the controversy of unproven UFO' existence.
By the way, why don't you too try another source of "sakinot" and tell me what happens to you, say the following and tell us what happens in your mind. Say this simple statement in english or arabic or yoruba or hausa or ibo or Ijaw, or Tiv or Junkun or ebira or urhobo or fulfude or wolof or mandinka or hebrew or spanish or swahilli, etc in fact in ANY language that you understand. Find a quiet place to prove the true God and then say:

"Jesus Christ the Lord of Righteousness, I (Nurudeen) know and accept that I am a sinner; come into my life and save me"

Then come back tell us what happens.

neelsel:

Mukina I must totally agree with your concern. I am a Christian and will NEVER resort to this type of behaviour. Now Jesus is a peace maker and will never sanction such behaviour by His followers.  Sad to this that this demeanor by many of us so called Christians has been detrimental rather than successive. In stead of harbouring war of words between ourselves and other religions, why not adhere to the teachings of the Lord, and spread His word.  I believe by interruption someone else's thread, that was created for their purpose is a blatant travestry of justice.  Take my advise, create a separate thread and let Us discuss Christianity and our Holy Bible, Cheers!!!

@neelsel,
Well, you might say you are a Christian, but your attempt at political correctness shows you are not really following Christ. You are like the Pharisees who Christ detest very much because of their "ostrich-like" behaviour i.e. 'see no evil, hear no evil'. I am sure if somebody opens up another thread glorifying devil worship and inviting people to come into it, you will say it is wrong to "interrupt such a thread that was created for their purpose". Have you not read how Jesus the Christ always go into the synagogues (the abode of the pharisees) to confront the hypocritical pharisees and expose their spritual adultery? This is not "interruption" but showing Islam and the Quran for an evil that it is. You don't like it, take your 'politically-correct' christianity somewhere else: this is an open and voluntary forum created for inter-faith debates.
In case you do not know, we've read from some muslims who confessed that they did not know there were such evil in the life and lifestyle of muhammed and in the Quran until they came to nairaland and saw an open debate about their so called 'faith': these are things hidden from them in their masjids, and the Oustass discourages them from asking too much questions.

nuru:

In yorubaland, we say 'pele lobi o lako' . That is, the same word can be interpreted positively or negatively, depending on the usage.

I want to recommend for David and co to obtain Audio CD's of the Quran and listen to the recitations for just 20 minutes. Never mind whether you understand the meaning or not. Just listen to it, Do the pondering later. I am sure something will prick your heart that this is from the Creator of the Universe and what is beyond.

@Nuru,
you must be a very very interesting fellow: by the way, what you mean above is "Pele l'abo, o l'ako". On the other hand I want to recommend for you to get a tape or CD of classical music e.g Beethoven and listen to the music for just 15minutes. Never mind whether you understand the meaning or not, just listen to it, do the pondering later. I am sure, in fact very sure you will experience a greater "sakinot" than you've ever experienced listening to some Arabic droaning. I will not be surprised if you think it is from allah "itself"

belloti:

This is not a bedtime story. I believe Oyakhilome and Adefarasin have given so much similar stories. But the essence of it all is to arrive at the incontestable fact that there is GOD.

@Belloti,
If the "essence" of your "walking tree" fairy tale is to convinve people of the "fact that there is God", then your target audience must be only those muslimis and muslimas who go on to become Oustass and Imam's. Majority will not see much sense in this story of a allah wandering around somewhere looking for which tree he is going to convert to a Hummer or Escalade, ini't?

Quote from Nuru(deen): "It is not true that Muslims are not tolerant of dialogs, what Muslims hate is express disrespect for anything Islam."

Nuru,
This is an oxymoron: how can you claim to be tolerant of critique but hate 'disrespect' for "anything" Islam. What would be your defnition of "disrespect for anything" Islam. Dont you see, any crtitique of "anything" Islam is going to be interpreted as "disrespect" for "anything" Islam!

belloti:

,,,,,,,My experience in the hood and later in life is not about the person of those folks but its about the christianity in them as it is to be practiced. And the loads of articles in Mathew, Mark and Luke does not make sense to me if i didnt get to see it in action. Those are the rethorics we hear everyday from Adeboye, Adefarasin, Oyakhilome, Okotie and the rest of them. I seldom miss their TV programes on Trinity TV.

If you want to know how i feel about christians. i will tell you in my University days too, both my Degree and at post graduate school, either by accident or by design, i found myself hanging out with christians almost 80% ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,And wait for this, my neighbour here in Abuja was a Deeper Life Pastor, I sincerely believe he was the best neighbour i ever had all my life, one of the nicest people to ever live. He died last year.,,,,,

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,(1) We fast 30 days in ramadan and other voluntary fasts, (2) we gave out zakkat from our properties, (3) stay away from alcoholic drinks and other unsavoury stuffs. (4) We dress decently and encourage others to do so. (5) We basically epithomises discipline and candour. I mean we are all humans but there are things we do in line with the teachings of our religions that stand us out. But i believe christianity is all about " For all have sins and come short of the glory of God, Repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand, Shout Alleluyah, For God so love the world, " on and on and on.

@Belloti,
You might not believe this but it is true, you are one of the people I admire most on Nairaland; and who knows, we might meet one day. I remember telling you this before and I still say it again. From our discussion on politics forum, I told you I like your candour and intellect but that you need to see or learn about the world from a different perspective, or that you should not interprete the world based on what you see through your prism. I dont know why you always think my direct and politically-incorrect responses are insultive or personal attack; maybe it's because I am used to living and working in a place where a 10yrold boy can tell you 'dont be silly' without being rude or insultive. Anyway, I apologise if you think so.

Now to business: what do you mean by "your experience in the hood"?   you in the hood? you this blue-blood scion of the Sokoto Caliphate who has correctly relocated to the "seat of power" in Abuja (until we re-arrange that false entity called Nigeria very soon), talking about hood?. I beg comot for road, jare! stop trying to be a commoner like the real Nigerians
Thank you for listing the things that define a muslim and through which you've been promised al'jannat; thank you for praying "5 times a day so as not to be distracted", but I wonder what will happen in the remaining hours of the day; thank you for hanging out and partying with the christians in your undergraduate and postgraduate days but I am sure your Oustass does not know you are hanging out with "Kafirs or infidels"; great to know you had a nice christian neighbour and have a good christian boss. But you see, that is exactly the point, you are still looking at "people" (neighbours, pastors, bosses, etc) in order to understand or validate Christianity, that is good and not wrong BUT you will get a confounded opinion. I agree not all those who call themselves Christians are saints just like any other faith or belief. Olabowale said sometime ago that "majority of muslims are actually not practising Islam", so if I start looking at my muslim friends, bosses or neighbours to "understand or validate" Islam, don't you see that my observation will be influenced either positively or negatively by those that I see but "might" not be a true reflection of what Islam is.
Dont get me wrong, you are right to look at people for inference but that will not give you the TRUTH of Christianity which is your "personal" benefit. The Truth is not in our neighbours, bosses, friends or even Pastors, Bishops or General Overseers, etc but only Jesus the Christ, the al-Mashi, the Son of the Living God: His life, His ministry and His message.

You see, Belloti, your self-righteousness is very obvious in your post, (e.g:"Right now i am a decently upright man and,,,,,") that is the deception of Islam; you remind me of the young and wealthy but also self-righteous man in the Bible (Book of Matthew) who asked Jesus that he has kept all the commandment, so he asked Jesus what else must he do to be "saved", Jesus's response was not about the young man's "works" but about God's declaration of the futility of man's self-righteousness in the sight of God. That is why Jesus declared "He is the way, the truth and the life, and No man can get to the Father except through him, the son." Saving faith in Jesus will produce not only security of salvation but also produce "works" called the fruits and gifts of the spirit of God in your life. Therefore you do not need to pray 25 times a day in other not to be distracted by scantily clad women in your office, the sprit of God living in you will help you. That is the "saving faith" that produces various good "work or fruits" of salvation.
You can see that I did not quote scriptures to you but I intend to stimulate your intellect to read the Bible to get understanding of what is Christianity. I intend to stmulate you to go to the source of the truth and the wisdom rather than looking or reading my own interpretation. You are man of understanding, put it to use, my friend.

@observer01 (not surprised) and Ayinba1,
The only reason you guys are petrified of an open discussion forum taking a close look at the Quran and Islam is the very same reason Islam is receiving negative attention in the world today and it also explains why you are still in it. Critique and lateral reasoning (a.k.a asking intelligent questions) are not encouraged or permitted in Islam, in fact muhammed discouraged it from the very beggining because such will expose the false foundation of his ideology called Islam.

Why is Islam attracting a lot of negativity in the world today? Believe me, it is not just because of terrorist bombers; it is because any attempt by any 'free minded' individual to critique or logically appraise the doctrine and tenets of the "faith" is met with brickwall and threat of violence and death. Why? because there are a lot of "things" to hide in Islam??: that is why your Oustass always advice you not to ask questions but simply obey.
Unfortunately, such anti-intellectual stance has no place in this modern world. Islam is a "belief" or an "opinion" to which a [b]"person"[/b] subscribes; just like Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, etc. Therefore, just like any opinion, it is open to critique, whether to your taste or not. Freedom of speech, thought and expression includes freedom to critique, appraise and even ridicule or insult another opinion or belief BUT not another person. Any distasteful critique of Islam/Quran should not be taken a personal attack, because it is not. We are simply expressing our freedom guranteed under our rights and priviledge of living in a "free world". Get in and move in to this century.

@Shahan,
May the Only Living God, Jehovah - the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Father of all Glory; Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, BLESS you abundantly as you use your knowledge of the "old things" to reveal/expose the idolatory called Islam. Eyes and hearts will be opened to the Grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ, Amen.

They can call you "mutashrikun"; but God calls you a Saint of Jesus Christ.

Bobbyaf:

In principle yes, however, there might be times when a person cannot get baptised in that manner. A case in point would be the thief on the cross who accepted Jesus, but died without experiencing that watery baptism.

Bobbyaf:

@ Shahan
Tell that to the repentant thief on the cross who didn't get baptised. 

Since you appear to have a fixation on the repentant thief who was not baptised, while I concur totally with Shahan's posts and scripture, I will like to add that: if you know the significance of water baptism, then you will know that the thief did not necessarily need to be baptised.
Baptism signifies total submission of the body and life of a christian to the death, burial and especially the ressurection of Jesus Christ as the Lord. [Key words: signifies; submission; Christian; death/burial/ressurection; Jesus Christ.] On the cross, Jesus had neither been buried nor ressurected when the thief gave his life and then died on the cross. So, the thief does not necessarily had to be baptised on the cross since Christ as not yet ressurected when he (the thief) gave his life and died. Read the book of Acts, Romans and Hebrew in the Bible and you will have a better understanding of the significance of water baptism by immersion to Christians from the resurrection and ascension of Christ till He returns. Peace

belloti:


I also don't know what is confusing about worship on earth and Reward in heaven. But let me confirm your speculation about my little background. I was born and bred in the heart of caliphate, Sokoto, moved to Abuja a couple of years back. When i was a kid i noticed that we do all the fastings and daily prayers in the mosque, while our christian neighbours relax with some cool bottle of beers playing scrabble and monopoly. They go to churches on sundays to have fun, singing and dancing. I looked around and saw lot of christian prostitutes called "okoto" all over the town. I now begin to understand the concept of Freewill.( Note: the "understanding" of the "concept of freewill" is based only on mere "observation") That was entirely my childhood perception based on my early experience. When a kid doesnt pray or fast, we say he is becoming a christians who doesnt do any act of worship. I grew up remembering those historical pictures, but then up to my adulthood i havent seen (again emphasis on observation) much differences except new grammers and plenty rethorics.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, But what exactly is the Act of Worship apart from too much noise and over-enthusiasm?

I think my little niece is right. But the Christians are dead wrong.

@Belloti,
Ok, let me tell you my childhood perception of muslims/Islam following your confounded logic: I grew up in Ibadan and saw that the dirtiest, most unkept, foul-smelling houses or peoples are usually occupied by muslims. I also noticed that they are usually the dumbest in  school, in fact, we have a nickname for any unsmart person, we call him "Ganiyu ode" (i.e stupid Ganiyu); in addition I also "observed" they are the ones who are more likely to engage in street fights, drop out of school, etc BUT as I grew up in years and wisdom, I understood that those things do not define who is a muslim, simply because those people I saw while growing up were like other non-muslims too. In fact in my university days, my closest friend and study partner in the medical school was a muslim, right from my first year to our graduation. This is because I understood and overcame my childhood ignorance that: a muslim is a person while Islam is the ideology he/she submit to. My absolutely correct perception of Islam as idolatory  is based on detailed study of the origin and doctrine/belief of the ideology called Islam.

Belloti, this is my usual rethorics about "lateral reasoning vs closed reasoning"; you have clearly shown that you've not overcome your childhood ignorance because you refuse to seek knowledge. Your opinion or observation about "Christians" is grossly confounded and distorted by your "Christian" neighbours: It is the pinnacle of scholastic ignorance and the highest anti-intellectualism to base your conclusion on a counfounded observation as you've done. This is just a factual description of what you've done, and not a "personal attack" as you always claim.
For example, it will be wrong for me or anybody to believe Islam is a wicked and violent religion simply because some muslims decide to blow themselves up and kill innocent peoples: I know and believe that Islam is a deceptive, wicked and violent religion because false salvation, killing apostates, killing enemies of the prophet, gender abuse, sexual pervertion, etc are openly glorified and encouraged in the (un)holy book of Islam called Quran al Karim. Do you see the difference? My understanding and conclusion is based on knowledge derived from seeking information on the ideology called Islam and the life and "minstry" of it's muhammed. NOT on mere observation of my early school mates, my neighbours or on atrocities of islamic terrorists. No wonder you "think" your little niece is right, what else did your little niece teach you, my friend?

If you honestly and independently want to know Christianity or Jesus Christ: go into the book where the thoughts, principles of living and the will of God for a Christian is written called the Bible; then read it critically against the backdrop of your knowledge of Quran, then you will see the Lord Jesus Christ. If you can post ONE SINGLE fault you can find in the life or teachings of Jesus either from the Quran or the Bible, (as we have found various in muhammed) I promise you I will become a muslim and you can boast of converting somebody , but that will not happen because you wont find any. My prayer is your eyes will be opened as you truly seek wisdom.

Chineke, I am laughing real hard here, ladies; Shahan, na waa for you o! you wont even allow the guy to give any excuse now: well, let's hope he'll give a copy to Prof. Yusuf.
NB; this is how they cover their eyes with lies! But God will help