₦airaland Forum

olabowale:
Afterall, the chrsitian are worshipping Jesus in the way of Saul/Paul, even though both of them walked the street of Palestine!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,The Christians worship Jesus in the telltale ways that Paul made up,,,,,,

@Olabowale,
I can see that your love for Paul is unfathomable. But seriously can you kindly educate me, and others who might be interested, in the "way or telltale ways of Saul/Paul" by which Christians worship Lord Jesus? Since you mentioned it twice and convincingly, I am sure that you apparently know what you are talking about with facts. This is an opportunity for us to learn something 'new' from your depth of wisdom.

JosBoy4Lif:
Again im going to ask the question that David does not want to answer. Since it has no merit, but is fundemental for this discussion:
Christians or Muslims===============> Who is responsible for more killings/ruining of lives/terror?

@Josboy4lif,
I honestly think that probably guys are not responding to your exact question because it is best handled rhetorically. Why? Some questions can be "answered" simply "Yes/No or A/B" e.g 2+2; while some other questions cannot be answered but must be "decided" Yes/No or A/B and example of the latter is your question.
In 'deciding' an answer, your decision or choice will depend on whether you have all the facts to back up your choice. Now, regardless of the choice of answer to your question quoted above, do you have all the facts to back up that choice to this your "exact" question above? Believe me, nobody does, because what you will have are 'facts' that are 'interpreted' according to the conviction, political inclination or belief of whosoever is doing the answering
But I know the question that you really want to, or should ask is this:
Christians or Muslims=========> Who is responsible for more killings/ruining of lives/terror, etc 'in the name of their religion or God?'
Now, this is more specific, straightforward and contextual and response can be 'answered' and not 'decided'.

olabowale:
@Gidig: That's truth. They are remembered for a long time for their dedds: Lies, fantasies, embellishment, overtly distortion of truth, racist behaviour, drunkenness. All of that and more is how your hero Mel Gibson is defined in America. His father too, was one of the biggest racist, anti jewish individual of recent time.

SO, what's all that got to do with the awesome message of the "Passion of The Christ". Bill Clinton might not be the most faithful of husbands but in term of economic leadership in the US, he is still the best president alive in the states. why don't you focus on the right things. Mel Gibson did not call himself a saint, did he? He has his personal strenghts and weaknessnes like all men but you cannot take away his brilliant directing skills.
By the way, Hollywood has released another blockbuster that will again drive crazy the 'agents of the accusers of the brethren' like the evolutionists, atheists, humanists etc. It is called The Nativity Story; watch it, let your kids watch it this Christmas
"Every knee will bow, and every tongue shall confess that,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,!!!!!

@Olabowale,
So, among all the scriptures I listed for you, the only one that always get's you going is anything written by Paul? Well whether you like him or not, agree or not, Paul wrote what the Lord showed/told him in the Spirit and it is full of wisdom of God. There are other passages there from Gen, Matthew (Jesus speaking), Ephesians etc but you wahala is Paul. As I said in my entry under 'Bounties of Jannat', you are much like Paul when he was still Saul; and I am believing God for you that you will become so sold out to Jesus like him and take the salvation of Jesus to your family, masjid etc. Amen.

Nobody told you Jesus renders the Old testament inapplicable; what is your definition of applicable or inapplicable?. I told you before that the entire OT is about the promise and prophesy of Jesus's coming. The laws of Judaistic legalism e.g Leviticus, cannot make a person righteous; for example in Nigeria where law has been prescribed against homosexuality, or in the US, UK where there are laws against paedophilia, are people still not practising homosexuality and paedophila? yes they are because Law cannot make people free from or avoid sin. That is why we say Jesus Christ is the end of the law for rigtheousness, He is the only one who can make righteous, convict of Sin through his spirit etc.

Marriage is NOT "like business written or implied agreement" as you submitted; a marriage that is like business with written or implied agreement is simply a "contract" like what you have in Hollywood and such a marriage will go the way of Hollywood marriages too. Marriage is mutual submission of will: two different peoples coming together to become one by submitting to each other. What you described is rather a 'partnership' in which two separate peoples come together and still remain different individuals, such a relationship will always be selfish, self-centred and egotistic with each person seeking his or her own. God said in Genesis chapter 2 that "For this reason shall a man leave his father and mother and shall join the woman, and the TWO  shall "become ONE" flesh." Do you see how God is reasoning? Bible also said the husband should love the wife as his own body and the woman should love the husband as her own body i.e you are seeking after each others interest, not your separate individuality.
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying challenges wont occur or disagreement will not happen, but in a marriage where there is mutual submission of will, settling such disagreements and ultimately forgiveness is much easier because,,, can you be angry and unforgiving at your own self? No!!! since Bible said you should hold, honour and love your wife just as yourself and vice-versa.

@Angel
I agree with Babyosisi: you guys might be surprised but I quite like Olabowale very much; we are alike a little but on different sides; and he always get's me going with the way he get's angry easily but he's getting clamer now, we always have our moments of , no doubt.
But Belloti, I am very suspicious of peoples like him, always trying to be a politician and say what people will like to hear.
Olabowale is going to be like (Apostle Paul) whom he dislike very much now, but somebody like him will similarly take the gosple all out and completely when he is touched by God very soon.

@goodguy,
Your submission on Michellin89 that: "You do not understand the concept of faith, yet you seem to be very definitive in your appraoch towards it.  Very ludicrous, indeed!"; it is very correct and it's the best you get from all the 'atheist or humanists and the rest of the 'pseudo-intellectually hard-working' chaps.
It is just like a secondary school student who is yet to understand or appreciate the concept of Algebra in basic Mathematics trying to 'logically' explain the concept of 'Young Abraham's Theorem' in Applied Mathematics. You might not agree, that's understandable; but it is pure 'cerebral dissociation' to start trying to explain what you do not know using your own logic.

olabowale:
Not that i am saying that the muslims do not have a lot of improvement and adjustments yo make. But you Kiriyos always thing that the christians never did any evil, you always turn everything to politics, ethnic race, but never religions even as they fight their own kinf as in the old Yogoslavia, or in the current CRUSADE!

@Olabowale/Belloti,
Call Christians 'whatever' you like, it does not remove the truth and the fact that "Jesus is Lord." The Word say so, the Spirit bear witness of the fact/truth and devil himself knows it.
I can confidently tell you that 'Christians never did any evil.' because anybody that does evil is not doing it as unto the Lord Jesus, maybe fulfilling a personal agenda.
Mahatma Ghandi said several years ago that: "If I could find Christians truly like Christ, I would be one too."
This statement is a FACT but unfortunately for Mahatma Ghandi, it is an ignorant philosophy.
Ghandi evaluated the life, teachings and messages of Jesus Christ and he found the Prince of Peace and the Son of Rigteousness, a Divine being who though knows no sin but became sin for the sake of mankind. He (i.e Ghandi) then thought, correctly that if all christians could be like Jesus, the world would be different and better. The so called "Christians" he knew preached love but practised discrimination, they taught righteousness but probably perpetuated a system that reinforced poverty and despair (e.g. the former Brithsh colonial powers in India). But are they really Christians who have made Jesus Christ their personal Lord and Saviour and under the guidance of the spirit of God?, N to the O i.e NO!!! The most important word here is "personal" highlighted!! Those he knew were truly there for the purpose and objectives of British government, and not Jesus Christ; however the true Christians who know Jesus as their Lord were the ones who fought in Britain for such issues like abolishion of slavery and colonialism (e.g Mr.Wilberfore among many others), or will say the truth like the Congressman who prayed in Kansas state senate in the US, etc etc and many many others preaching and living the true gosple of Jesus Christ.
Can any right thinking person look at the life and lifestyle and teachings of muhammed, and such a person will genuinely want to become a muslim on the basis of that evaluation? Most likely NOT!!!
Dont be surprise Mahatma Ghandi said so: Jesus said in John 14 vs 6 that: "I am the way, the truth and the life, no man cometh unto the Father but by me" and He also said in Mattew 11 vs 27-29: [color=#990000[b]]"All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."[/color][/b]

Ghandi was ignorant because he based his conclusion or decision on the 'people' he saw rather than the 'truth or the personality' he 'read' about i.e Jesus the Christ. Salvation is a personal things and not a collective decision because he is not going to be judged on the 'people' but on 'his' own faith in salvation. Because It is written in 1 Corinthians 3 vs 8 & 10 that: ( "Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and EVERY MAN shall receive his OWN reward according to his OWN labour."
(10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation (i.e faith in Jesus as basis of salvation), and another buildeth thereon (i.e further exhortations). But let EVERY MAN `take heed how he buildeth thereupon."

@Olabowale,
I am happy you are learning to approach issues rationally rather than emotionally, that is the begining of getting understanding. Now to your entries:

olabowale:
@Havila: First, I respect Isa bin Mariam (AS) of the Qur'an. You have traces of his description in the Bible. But there is an embellishment to the extremity that a figure called Jesus in the Bible emmerged. It is this falacy that all muslims disagree with.

Yes, you "respect" him because you dont 'know' him; because if you do know him, you will honour Him, Glorify Him, Adore Him, Submit to Him, etc. It is laughable that you claim there are only traces of him in the bible; it is fallacy to you because the "natural man receive not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are FOOLISHNESS (or 'fallacy') unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Again, this is from 1st Corinthians 2 vs 14 that I quoted above. Additionally 1st Corinthians 12 vs 3 says: "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus 'accursed': and that no man can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
Accursed refers to the Greek word 'anathema' which could figuratively mean 'giving him less glory than he deserve or has'. These passages above clearly shows that what you have in the Quran, in fact the entire Quran itself, is DEFINITELY NOT OF SPIRIT OF GOD.

olabowale:
You see, in marriage, people come with their different and separate experiences. You put 100% of yourself into it. You persevere and patiently try to do the best and see issues from your partner's viewpoint and then yours. Men rule if he knows how to make the woman feel that it is a true partnership. At the same time, woman is the real ruler, because she keeps the family together, but she is "smart enough" to make the man feel that he is in control. Havila, Islam allows divorce so that no one is imprisoned in a a situation where they are not 100% truly committed and feel that there is a better situation. Also, Islam allows men to marry more than one wife, for many reasons; it was an on going tradition before the Islam of Muhammad. This islamic injuction did not start it, but limit man's to 4 wives at one time and allows divorce instead of hatred, etc, between spouses.

Olabowale,
What you descibed above is truly Islamic potrayal of marriage and NOT TRUE MARRIAGE has it was ordanined by God Almighty from the begining. Marrigae is NOT about 'rulership' and 'servanthood' as you have of the relationship between husband and wife in Islam; in Lord Jesus Christ, marriage is the interdependence of the man and woman in the home with equal worth before the Lord but differences in responsibilities. Marriage is NOT a deception in which one has to be "smart enough make the man feel he is in control"; in Christ, it is about two completely different people coming together to SUBMIT THEIR DIFFERENT WILLS to each other, honour, respect, forgive and love each other under God no matter what.
1st Corinthians 11 vs 11-12 says: "Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.(11) For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but ALL things of God"
In your Islam, by allowing ''divorce so that no one is imprisoned in a situation in which they are not 100% truly committed''(in your words), dont you see that is an oportunity NOT to be committed in the first place since you can divorce easily? This is called 'ontological evidence' i.e. since the provision is there already for what is allowed if you are not 100% committed, that is an opportunity not to be committed. If you have no alternative choice but to be committed, loving, forgiving in differences etc, you will definitely be committed and not think of divorce talkless of looking for 'better alternatives', how myopic is that? how did you know the future situation will be better? Dont you see limited and selfish human wisdom here, especially tilted in favour of the male sex which is the 'theme of marriage in Islam'?
If you want to learn more about Marriage in Christ, read Genesis 2:18, Matthew Chapter 5 vs 32, Romans 7 vs 4, 1st Corinthians chapters 7 and 11, 2nd Corinthians 11, Ephesians 5 vs 22-32, for starters to know what is the true and real marriage which is a lifelong commitment of love, peace, mutual support and respect; forgiveness, enouragement in adversities; rejoicing and honour each other at all times with gratitude to God. Above all, submitting to God for his help and teachings by acknowledging him as the ultimate head of your home.

olabowale:
1-Read the Qur'an, you will find many chapters on women, name;Mariam, matters of life; The woman who argued, family issue; Divorce, and others. Tell me, do you have something comparable in the Bible. In the Qur'an, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
2-If there is a divorce, man is commanded to deal justly and do not inflict any emotional or physical damage or undue advantage.

response 1: It should be obvious from my discussions variously that I know the quran and about the quran; and you know my opinion on the book from what I said above in the first part of this write-up. It is simply a product of selfish human wisdom and nothng divine from it's contents.
response 2: This is absurd; as a man how do you divorce a woman and yet deal justly without inflicting any 'emotional or physical damage'?. Yes, it is only possible if you were NOT really married in the sense of real marriage all along, but simply cohabiting as "ruler" and "the ruled" or "servant" with absolutely no emotional attachment. Is that marriage? Hell No.

belloti:
Havila, as if you knew, i dashed down to zamfara to keep abreast with issues at the home front. It was an eventful trip and we are still hopeful and counting on your supports.

Keep on waiting, but you wont wait too long because after May 2007, by the grace of God, Yerima and all other looters without immunity would probably be residing in the "real government house" as "government pikins" where they wear khaki uniforms, for corruption and embezzelment charges.

olabowale:
@Havila: Assumption, there are approximately 6.5 Billion people on earth today. There is about 1.5 Billion of them who are muslims. let then understand that there are 180 countries out of about 184 that you will findMuslims. Lets use countries which have small population of Muslims, eg Russia, China, Equador, America, Norway. In these countries, since the infamous 911, are the Muslim population growing, remaining unchange or dwindling? You tell me. Do you want to talk about England, or where? You want to talk about your country, Nigeria, probably you are an Ekiti man, we can talk about that. If Islam is already in Igbo land and growing, Alhamdulillah inside and outside Nigeria, do you know what will happen, 100 years from now? You are not making any real sense.

Your usual delusional ramblings; keep making unsubstantiatable and irrational claims while the truth is confronting you head on but your anger is blinding you from seeing it.

exu:
The Christian and the Muslim going at it.This is fun.

I don't blame you, my brother. The guy is really like a 'skipping record-player'; but don't be surprised because the 'going at it' started way back in Genesis Chapter 17 vs 18-19,
But, please as I said don't let us digress from the topic of the post. Keep it going!!!

olabowale:
@Havila:
(1) Are you for real? Did you hear from any muslims, ever that Muhammad (AS) ever cut or other self punishment,ever?
(2) If Jesus were to have been alive when Muhammad (AS to both) was preaching, Jesus will have no option to follow the Messenger of Allah. The same rule applied to Moses (AS), as well! I will give you the verse in the Qur'an that provide this information by The Lord of All things.

Olabowale,
Response to No.1: In your very "broad-minded" thinking (indeed!!), you've shown the root cause of your constant offtopic rambles. What I did above is know in qualitative research as comparative or thematic analysis. There is power in the wisdom of observation of consistencies in themes: the themes of the story of the "mad man of Gadara's" life in the caves around the hills of Gadarenes country is similar to the 'habitation of muhammed in the caves to receive revelations' from,,,,,,,,,who? So we just picked up the very similar themes between, compare them and inferences are made. If you read well you will see I did not say Mo. cut himself; so why do you always read with such an up-side down mentality? You always come out looking rather uninformed and over-estimated.

Response to No.2: Don't bother providing any quotation from your quran to back up a stupid submission. "If Jesus were to be alive,,,,," Yes he is alive, well and kicking; If you really really want to know what Jesus would do why don't you look at what Jesus is doing right NOW in the Islamic nations and all over the world: with millions accepting Him as the Lord and Saviour to the anger of Islamic fascist; why dont you look at what His Children/Disciples called Christians are doing now rejecting the exposing the "Style and Lies" of Islam for what it really is. The evidence is there before your very eyes but you rather will bury your head in a rubbish concoted tales of hedonistic wickedness called Quran. C'mon, wake up!!!

belloti:
But i also noticed the christians in our midst are not ready to even understand the tenets of Islam as it is but they d rather hold on to their readymade perception of Islam despite our willingness to explain knotty issues. We ve got to believe that once in a while we may make error of judgement and we should be open to corrections. Bro Olabowale and me can't harbour terrorism and violent tendencies and still hang around with you appealing for peace and harmony.

Nice Speech Belloti,
How else do you expect the world to understand the tenets of Islam other than: reading your scriptures; looking at the life and teachings of your acclaimed prophet; looking at the life and behaviours of the believers/followers of your faith, etc? The world has done that and evaluated the religion, what you are seeing now globally is the result of such "understanding" becasue it is very clear that ISLAM IS A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER to the peace of the world; danger to human freedom and liberty; danger to women and children; danger to freedom of speech and thought; an instrument of oppression; and danger to the salvation of the soul most importantly.
Do you think we are still living in the time and ages when only the pastors reads and interprete the Bible for example, No, we individually develop a relationship with God through his teachings in addition to learning, bro.
Well, you might think "it does not make sense to be a christian", that's not surprising because, listen to this from the book of 1st Corinthians 1 vs 27: "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty." Also 1st Coringthians 2 vs 14 especially relevant to your statement: "But the natural man receive not the things of the Spirit of God; for they are FOOLISHNESS unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." This is why our prayers are with you that your eyes of understanding might be opened to the things of the spirit of God.

olabowale:
@gbade.x: The first revelation is in the cave of Hira andit is only 5 verses! There is a period of 13 years of revelations in Makka and 10 years after in Madina. The cave that you are talking about is not near madina. Just this last sentence destroys your statement.

@All,
Actually, I know of another person who also received his "revelations" in a cave; he was called the "Mad man of Gadara" in the bible; he was of the country of Gadarenes and possesed by unclean spirits living in caves and cutting himself because of the revelations he was receving from his 'masters'. (Read Mark Chapter 5) but when he was confronted by the Lord of Righteousness Jesus Christ, the demons have no choice but to rush out into a herd of swines (pigs or pork) around and they perished.
Do you notice similarities with Muhammed's story? note the key words or phrases:
(1)Caves;
( 2) Possesed by demons (muhammed said he thought he was possesed by demons; he was probably right, with what's in the Quran);
(3) Herd of Swines i.e pigs/porks (are you still wondering why he hate pigs/pork)

Let him that have an inner ear listen! the time is nigh.

Hi Belloti,
I thought you've abandoned Yerima since I did not hear from you for some days. Or you went for reinforcement in Gusau (am I correct, is that the capital of Zamfara?)

@mariory,
I read it too in Nigerian Tribune online that a Presidential aspirant stated he owns the fire-works which were to be used for his official declaraton in Abuja. If this is true, then those blaming Davidylan above need a rethink. It would clearly be a disgrace to the new minister screaming as if he caught Osama bin Laden in Lagos and to the security at our airports if we can't diferentiate 'knock-outs' from explosives.

@Easy,
Nothing is as simplistic as the power of consistency: Pierre Gamayel happens to be the fourth anti-Syria Lebanese politician to have been killed in the last 2 years. These deaths occured among at least 10 attempts on the lives of anti-Syrian lebanese politicians. Remember, a United Nations independent investigation panel found Syrian government officials culpable and involved in the death of Rafik Hariri, the former Lebanes prime minister who is also anti-Syria.I hope you dont think it is Israel that influence the panel again.

olabowale:
All of that is better than eating pork and all its by products. Its the worst kind of meat. You got my drift!

Davidylan/Gbade.x et al;
I really thank God for the teachings of Lord Jesus Christ in the Bible because indeed they are light unto the path of those who choose to believe; instead of walking in darkness and bondage of some "bizzare instructions received by a prophet while under the blanket with a 9 year old girl or in a cave."

In Matthew 15 vs 10-11, Jesus Christ told the Pharisees('far they see') and the rest of the crowd that: "Listen and understand. What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.' "

Muhammed taught 'Dont eat pork', but his life and teachings are as filthy as a pig rolling in the mud.

nilla:
ok i don't kow whether your making headway. you guys keep putting up long posts with sources, quotations, etc. its been on for a long time now.
I ain't myopic
Keep up the good work preaching the word of God.
_{Haven't read most of your other posts but what i can see so far is your different from some of the others preaching.}Bless you too

Dear Nilla,
Hi, I know you are not myopic dear, just an expression but,,,,,,ma bad!! Anyway, great it's difficult to ignore because we are speaking the truth about Christ and the danger that Islam particularly pose to the rest of the world. Thanks for the enouragement. God bless u real good!

olabowale:
@Havila: Stop being very arrogant. I swear by Allah Who is the Holder of my soul,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,You do not know me and I am sure that if you do, you will know that you are very insignificant, indeed. Some are kings, some are king makers. Allah has blessed me and you are not thought about, not by me in the least.

@Olabowale,
you better don't burst a vein with all your swearing to idols, did I mention your name? when did you become "some people"?,,,,,,,I think you really need to go for anger management!! I can easily see that you've never had anybody stand up to you and confront you on all angles before,,,so it is really bugging you down. C'mon, take a chill pill and start talking your age. So who's being arrogant here!! I sincerely thank God for your life and "your wealth"; mr-king-maker in your village . I will not say that you Olabowale are insignificant to me, otherwise I will be reducing myself to your level of thinking. Everybody created by God is significant in their own right; even though our beliefs, maturity, understanding, socio-economic status etc might differ. I don't know you physically or what you have; neither am I interested. But you are definitely NOT the kind of individual I will want to know personally. You don't have any enviable quality for a man of your self-professed status. Look, don't make us digress from the discussion here with your consistent violent offtopic tendencies and start talking sense, mr hawk when necessary. Dont frustrate yourself, very funny guy !!

belloti:
I think Havila as a person is a nice guy. But i don't think any one else is bad too. we are all cool. You know why i came to the conclusion that Christians hang so much on Jesus rather than on his message?. For an average christian, its always the verbal proclamation of the aceptance that gives him satisfaction but the booze, fornications, crimes and endulgence are just part of life. i believe an armed robber would gladly tell you he accept jesus as his lord and saviour and still feel cool.

@Belloti,
Thanks for your validation of my person and concluding I am a nice guy. Small time politician I told you before that I can perceive something happening in your spirit. Jesus is knocking and you will probably be the Saint Paul the Apostle to Zamfara State, insha Jehovah!!
Now to your post, you are wrong but understandably so: there is nothing like the 'average' christian or the 'full' christian. It is either Jesus is your Lord and Saviour or NOT. This is our saving faith. A saving faith in christ happens when you accept the Lord--> this is called conversion. After conversion of a Christian comes Regeneration: this involves your growing and maturing in your faith, trust and understanding of the ways and thought of God for your life. If an armed robber genuinely accepts jesus christ, yes christ loves him. But the saving faith will then result in his regeneration and he will become a new person who will no longer rob because the spirit of God will constantly convict him of the truth. But he will still face the punishment according to the laws of the land but spiritually, he/she has been forgiven. Jesus died for ALL sins, it is now left for sinners to accept the free offer of this sacrifice to be saved.
You talk as if fornication, drinking etc is the prerogative of christians, what a false, indoctrinated, ignorant thought. Belloti, I know for certain through various qualitative studies in sexual & reproductive health done in Nigeria that Homosexuality is headquartered in Northern Nigeria. They are called 'Dan Daudu' all over the north despite your 'yeye' sharia. Some of the largest breweries are in the northern nigeria. Also, quite recently, a Saudi royal prince was discovered to house a young 'boyfriend' in a secret mansion he bourght in London despite having a family in Medina. Do I think only muslims are homosexuals and drunkards? NO!! Are you getting my matured eivdence-based line of thinking.?
I told you before that I like your positive attitude on our politics discussion forum, you are young; and we need a lot of forward thinking like-minded, progressive people in Nigeria/Africa to confront the challenges of the coming decades. But Belloti: "What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, but loses his soul?"(Mark 8 vs 36)

I wonder if the motivation of some people to contribute to a thread is actually that of concern/love or simply because they see the username "Havila" there. Stop chasing shadows.

exu:
Aren't you religious types always banging on about 'free-will'?

@Exu,
"Religious types"? That sounds prejudicial but it's all good We will endure all things because of the love of God,,,,Christ still loves you and he is knocking at your door. What is free will? Freedom to fulfil the hedonistic pleasures of the flesh without restraint?. Homosexuality, abortion, chronological polygamy, paedophilia, hatred, racism, oppression of women, honour killing, living in abundance when you neighbours die of hunger, etc there is no right or wrong but how you feel?!!!. We are not talking about breaking the laws of the land but about the living a constant life of Love with the peace of God. This is beyond human free capability, you need the spirit of Love i.e the spirit of God. I mean true God (not idols or allah)
If you are looking for human free-will, look at the suicide bombers of 9/11, 7/7 etc and you see a heart without true divine control. Nature abhors vacuum; it's either you are for God (I mean the living God, not allah!!) or you are under the control of the flesh. The former leads to peace and joy, the latter leads to a life of confusion, bitterness and defeat.

@Nilla,
How did you know we are not making any headway? c'mon dont be myopic. The things you see/hear are determining the things you might not see/hear. Are you expecting some people to simply come and renounce their ideology after life-long indoctrination, human pride is still influencing some, but the words of God are 'spirit and they are life'. The words they've heard will convict them of the truth.
As per the Buddhist, atheist etc,,,,,,,,wey dem? We preach the message of hope, peace and Christian liberty to all and sundry without regard to race, hate or persecution. The Islamic jihadist, Buddhist, Sikhs etc are trying but failing flat on their faces in the Americas, Europe, Arab countries, Asia, Africa etc because the airwaves are being bombarded through satellite with the message of Christ, coupled with active evangelism on the ground.
It is written that "All knees will bow and every tongue shalll confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" The word of God is like the rain which come from above and cannot return, so is the words of God that it cannot go void without achieving what it has being sent to do. Bless you.

olabowale:
@Havila: The best verse of the Bible you are using to respond to me is Roman 12:2? But Roman is after Jesus was already lifted up. And it is a letter, a subjective opinion to some people. That is from God? Texturally and all and remain unchanged? Paul or who ever the author was was a third generation personality, who came after the generation of the companions of jesus. Then you present two verses of Gospel 'according to' Luke. The operative phrase is in quotation above. In all, you did not use a verse directly from the messenger/prophet Jesus son of man (son of mary). How then do i expect you to have any verse directly from God the Almighty!

@Olabowale,
This statement above is a "literature of ignorance" and I don't blame you. I have said it again, your responses are now really surprising to me because of the depth of it's incoherence and emptiness. Can you just do a little bit of research to investigate your submissions before posting? Before making a claim about a particular verse, why dont you attempt to investigate the passage, the content, the author: then rationally look at the message. I expect us to be having matured exchanges based on contents here, not unfounded claims or exchanges with no head or tail only fit for motoparks.
So who was talking in Luke 6 and what was the exposition of Romans based on? The message of Luke 6 was Jesus himself teaching and the exposition of Romans is based on the teachings and life of Jesus through inspiration of the sprit of wisdom, Holy Spirit. Why not focus on the content for now to get understanding rather than fighting Paul at every given opportunity you have . If you put the life of Paul and Muhammed side by side to an atheist, they can easily deduce who served a living God that is a Good God. Beware of Pride and blinding anger and rebellion; they all make you so blind to your conscience and reason, when truth is confronting you head on, my brother.

belloti:
At the end of all this crazy exercise, Babyosisi, Havila and David will still come out as christians as ever while definitely Bro. olabowale and Belloti will forever remain as devoted and as commited muslims as has always being. I think what we should try to achieve here is that, despite our seeming hatred for each other we can still talk on common platform and express our spiritual sentiments and feel good about it. My prayer has always being for guidance for myself and the rest of humanity.

Now Belloti,
Maybe you hate us 'unbelivers' as prescribed by muhammed; let me tell you, ALL of us here replying you and Olabowale DO NOT HATE YOU. We are not permitted to hate people by Jesus Christ, but we hate the ideology or theology you profess i.e Islam. If you take our disapproval of Islam as hating you, then you are mistaken. We will not give up on you because Christ did not give up on us when we were still blind. You have heard and read the message of the gosple of peace and liberty through Jesus Christ; what you have heard or read, maybe you still dont believe it, but your eyes and heart will see it. We have given you the message and we are praying for you to have your eyes opened to the love of God through Jesus, that is our role; the Lord himself will be the one to convert you and Olabowale according to his purpose or will. The words and scriptures you've read are seeds of life because they are scriptures and scripture-inspired.

nilla:
Now that we've come to this conclusion, can we officially end the thread

Now Nilla,
With all due respect to your passivism, is anybody forcing you to come unto this thread? Are you being compelled to write? Why must you want us to end this discussion? You do not want us to have or express our opinion?
This is a right and a priviledge; you cannot legislate against our opinion however you do not like it or displeasing it is to ears.
If you dont stand for something in life, you will fall for anything. Now this is a proverbial saying not directed at you personally but to reflect the outcome of passivism. I know you mean good, but thanks dear. Take a stand. Take a stand that will help and lead others to salvation and peace and freedom from hate filed indoctrination, oppression and ultimately to HELL---> That is what islam represent.
"The earth is the Lords and the fullness thereof"

@Michelin89,
What is your understanding of true freedom or Liberty??. Is it freedom to do as you please or whatever you want? No!!
True freedom is the freedom to do that which is consistent with the character of God/Jesus Christ. True freedom is freedom from sin.!!
Now, I know or I expect that your next question(s) should be:
(1) How can you be free from sin?
Answer: Very simple: accept the free offer of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross, and you are free.!!!
John 8:36 : "If the Son (i.e Jesus Christ) therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."
Romans 6:18: "Being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness."

(2) What are the characters of God/Jesus Christ?
Answer: Simple, pick a bible and read and the living God himself will tell you His characters. Start from New Testament for now.

(3) Now, if you want to be 'cheeky or brilliant', you will ask me 'How can you be free when the Word said 'ye became servants of righteousness' after you are freed from sin'?
Answer: Simple: Salvation of your soul requires your Sanctification ( i.e "separated unto". In other words, when you are separated 'from' sin, you must be 'separated "unto" or 'attached' to something greater than sin or something that can overcome the temptations of sin whenever they come or convicts you of sin if it occurs. Because as long as you are in this world, temptations will always come in various forms. So to live a life of constant victory over sin, you need to be with the 'righteousness' i.e the Spirit of God that comes upon you and into you after you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.
God will give you understanding and the grace to act upon it.
All the best, bye.

@Olabowale,
Indeed, discussions with you is an "enterprise in perseverance" because most times your responses are not only illogical but your responses lacks any merit and are most times only for response sake. I have said it before and you always confirm it that this Islam is indeed 'shallow' and false. Now, in your words and according to your Quran:

"Allah says in Suratul Fath (Victory Chapter 48, verse 29) that the the Believers have a trace of submission on their face,,,,,,,,,,,,,,When I learnt about this believer's quality in Qur'an, I began to pay attention to the faces of people, immediately after the Salah. I notice, always the calmness on the face and in general the Muslims are younger looking with more radiant skin, free of skin deseases."

If this is the deception you want to risk your eternity on, then I implore you to please let common sense prevail. In fact you don't need divine wisdom to know that the statement above about humanity and human being is false, false and false. Have you not heard the children proverb that "You cannot judge a book by it's cover." So according to your allah, by looking at the faces of believer you will see traces of submission. What a stupid deception from the pit of hell!!!
The suicide bombers who killed thousands in 9/11 and 7/7 in US and UK respectively were indeed "true believer" because from the investigation after the attacks, it was revealed that they were quiet, handsome, nice and submissive guys by their neighbours and friends; and yet they carried out the dastardly acts in the name of your allah and according to the instruction of allah's prophet muhammed as shown in the following passages:
-"Martyrdom is therefore the ONLY way for a Muslim to obtain forgiveness of sins” Surat Al – Tawbah 9:111
-"Jihad (fighting for Allah’s cause) is ordained for you” Surat Al-Baqarah 2:216 (allah can't fight for himself!!)
-"Kill the Mushrikun (non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush” Surat Al-Taubah 9:5

While Islam focuses on piety, human appearance, works of self-righteousness and other deceptions of humanity; Jesus Christ seeks to and want to regenerate your MIND entirely. Bible says in the book of Romans 12:2 that: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.
Also Jesus Christ said in Luke 6:45 that: A good man out of the good treasure of his heart (or mind) bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart (or mind) bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh."

I have quoted similar relevant verses from the Quran and the Bible, so that you yourself can compare and contrast and again validate it against your conscience. It is the mind that is the source of all goods or evils; and going by the wicked teachings of muhammed in the Quran as shown by various quotations it is not difficult to imagine the evil capabilities in the minds of "true believers" in Islam who "have traces of submission and calmness on their faces,,,,and are younger looking with radiant skin." Is this a joke? C'mon, you should know more than this or I am overestimating your understanding. I will not be surprised if you ask us again to show you the wicked teachings of Muhammed because it is as if you delibrately develop 'selective dyslexia' to the writings/teachings of your prophet in the quran.

belloti:
Sometimes I really can't see what we are achieving here.

I pray God will open your eyes, heart and mind to "see"; and not only to see but the grace to "act" upon what you know to be true, in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

belloti:
If myself and bro. Olabowale spend the whole season trying to make you at least hear our Nasiha, you were always determined to resist and object.

Dear Belloti/Olabowale:
Let me tell you guys a personal story like Olabowale usually does , so that you will know I am not resisting you or have anything against muslims; but resisting and rejecting that your message of Islam.
As a young man in my late teens and early twenties, my 'best friend' was a 50 something year old man. His first child and myself were mates in secondary school. I learnt a lot from him, about love and respect for your neighbours, about forgiving the enemy, about life in general. Rather than hang around with my age mates then, I usually enjoy and prefer sitting with him and just listening to him talk about life and experience. Some of my short holidays from university in Nigeria then, I spent with him and his family because my parents live in the US. A well loved and respected man with christians and muslim friends. A man who has weathered all  sorts of troubles personally and in his work but his emphasis in life was on love, forgiveness of enemies. His children became more or less my brothers and sisters becase of his love. You know what, HE IS A MUSLIM!!! but totally NOT ISLAMIC. Whenever his local imam comes to his house and sees me there, his countenance was always disapproving of my closeness to the family and must have complained about this behind my back. Because to the 'islamic' Imam, I am a 'kafir', 'infidel', 'unbeliever' and an 'enemy' and he can't understand how I can be allowed in the house of a 'muslim'. That imam is a muslim, who is TOTALLY ISLAMIC in his body, spirit and soul; well that's why he is the 'imam'!!, kaji ba?
Don't think that my opinion is based on the imam's behavious, that will be very very myopic or short-sighted; it is based on my carefully researched understanding of Islam. That is why I said earlier that if you evaluate it truthfully against your God given conscience, you will realize it is not the truth. It is not a religion based on Love or peace although it claims to be "peace".

olabowale:
Unfortunately, most muslims are no closely attached to Islam.

Well, I heave a sigh of relief, because if they do things will be more dangerous that it is now. Hopefully, they will detach completely and come unto peace in Jesus name.