₦airaland Forum

[quote author=bashy_demy link=topic=817518.msg9708249#msg9708249 date=1323194472]Open it and let me know i am free to debate with you so no problem[/quote]Sorry, but I 'd rather not because you are the one who asked me to explain certain verses to you. . .So do the right thing.
[quote author=bashy_demy link=topic=817518.msg9705670#msg9705670 date=1323175870]Are you sure you understand bible? [size=14pt]can you explain some verses to me? I dont understand them maybe you can explain them to me.[/size] are you read?[/quote]

gotizsata:
Are you saying Ehud the son of Gera was man-lover, because that is what aletheia is suggesting

^
How disingenuous you are. You really need to work on your English comprehension skills. Is that what you gleaned from what I wrote?

[quote author=bashy_demy link=topic=817518.msg9706031#msg9706031 date=1323178756]Can we stay on here or go on another thread so we wont be disturb[/quote]Another thread will be better. Let me know when you open it. Thanks

North? What North?

NORTHERN leaders, yesterday, met in Kaduna to seek solution to the crises of confidence among the various tribes in the zone, even as some notable traditional rulers in the North Central area and Middle Belt were conspicuously absent.

Apart from fromer Head of State, General Yakubu Gowon, who is from Plateau State and the Sultan of Sokoto, Alhaji Abubakar Sa’ad III who attended the peace conference, their contemporaries like General Theophilus Yakubu Danjuma, and His Highness, Asaph Zadok, Hama Bachama were absent.

Others who did not attend the well publicised event include, the Attah of Igala, Dr Aliyu Obaje; the Tor Tiv, Dr. Alfred Tokula; the Ochi of Idoma land, Chief Ageba Idu Elias, the Ponzi Tarok of Lantang Gen. Domkat Bali (rtd), and the Gwatyap of Kataf land, Engr. Harrison Bungwon

Other absentees were, Gbom Gwon Jos, Gyang Buba.

However, their colleagues from the far North (Hausa- Fulani) including politicians, traditional and religious leaders attended.

^I guess the message being passed across to the Hausa-Fulani is that they are on their own, since their leaders refuse to behave.

What a thread.

[quote author=bashy_demy link=topic=817518.msg9705670#msg9705670 date=1323175870]. . .can you explain some verses to me? I dont understand them maybe you can explain them to me.[/quote]^Go ahead. What Bible verses do you need explaining? I am ready.

Ruqaya:
. . .u decided 2 turn your religion into entertainment(singing,clapping,dancing e.t.c)

^
Why should we not sing and dance, when our Father in Heaven has put His joy in hearts. Only slaves go about with a dour and sour countenance. But the freeborn sons and daughters of the Most High will rejoice. . .
O come, let us sing unto Jehovah: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.
Psa 95:1
O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.
Psa 47:1
Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
Psa 149:3

Ruqaya:
i advice u read your bible well,put d messages into practise nd come back 2 nairaland 2 tell us about your encounter(i mean thorough reading nd understandind not cherry picking).maybe by den u'll understand your religion beta nd stop fooling urselves.

^
We understand the Bible far better than you. The message is simple enough for a child to preach to you: Jesus Christ of Nazareth is the Son of God; and only through believing in him can you be saved.
The question is: do you understand Islam as well as we do. For one, we certainly know that according to the Qur'an; ALL Muslims including Mohammed will go to Hell.

italo:
So you admit that not all good works proceed from faith as tpia@ said. Thanks be to God!

^
Actually he doesn't admit any such thing. You fail to understand. Any work that does not proceed from faith is null and void in God's sight with regards to salvation. Men may call it good works; but God calls them filthy menstrual rags (Isa 64:6).

But without faith it is impossible to please God. . .Heb 11:6

italo:
Can a man who casts out demons, work many miracles and prophecy in Jesus' name be said NOT to have faith?

^
Jesus declares this a distinct possibilty.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:21-23

Zikkyy:
This is the bit i don't understand. What i read you say here is that the child still need to make an effort to walk. It means we do have a say in the process.

exhortations, reminders. All point to the need for a christian to put in his bit.

Would have loved some clarifications here, but don't want to take too much of your time.

^We often find this confusing because we do not gaze upward beyond ourselves to Christ Jesus. Too often we stop at Philippians 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Php 2:12

. . .without proceeding on to Philippians 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Php 2:13

A reading of verse 12 alone would imply that we work out our salvation ourselves but verse 13 shows us that it is God that works in us not only to will (i.e. desire to obey him) but also to actually do his will (i.e. obey him).
We cannot of our own accord will to do God's good pleasure. . .we are incapable of that. We are all bent out of shape by sin; like a badly crooked ruler, which can only draw misshapen lines despite its best intent and effort (i.e. even though the crooked ruler desires to draw straight lines; it cannot do so).

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:15
For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:19

However once the ruler is made straight it can now draw straight lines. Or better yet, as it is written. . .

Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Mat 12:33

As the earlier parable shows; the Son of Man plants the good seed. The seed is good and so its fruit is good. Its fruit is good because the seed is good; not that the seed is good because the fruit is good. Rather, the fruit is the evidence that the seed is good. Did the seed make itself good of its own accord? No. It is God that saves the Christian out of the world, makes him good and appoints good works for him to do as a sign that he is saved.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:16

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:10

^The good works that Christians do has been prepared beforehand for them by God (cf. John 9:1-3). . .so how can we claim any role therein?

Zikkyy:
I understand (and agree with) the sovereign choice bit, but. . . . . .

We do have a role in the process, we present ourselves. or what do you have to say about crook that was converted on the cross?

^
. . .but did the thief on the cross really present himself? Did he play a role in his salvation? The thief died that day on the cross. He had no further opportunity after a lifetime of depravity to do good works. . .and yet he was saved. Don't you see in that incident the history of man. Both thieves were condemned to die, fully deserving of the penalty for their crimes. . .just as it is for all men. . .

For the wages of sin is death. . .Rom 6:23

And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. Luk 23:41

The reason (in my opinion) we think we have a role to play is because we are clouded by traditions concerning the nature of the gospel of Jesus. We have fallen prey to decisionism. Men must always feel that their efforts count for something. God tells us that when it comes to salvation; our works don't matter. (Please prayerfully consider the parable of Matthew 20:1-16):

So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
Mat 20:8-10

Also see Jesus' gentle rebuke of Martha (Luke 10:38-42).

---

Just as I am, without one plea,
but that thy blood was shed for me,
and that thou bidst me come to thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

2. Just as I am, and waiting not
to rid my soul of one dark blot,
to thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

3. Just as I am, though tossed about
with many a conflict, many a doubt,
fightings and fears within, without,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

4. Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
sight, riches, healing of the mind,
yea, all I need in thee to find,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

5. Just as I am, thou wilt receive,
wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
because thy promise I believe,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

6. Just as I am, thy love unknown
hath broken every barrier down;
now, to be thine, yea thine alone,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

davidylan:
i wonder why muslims struggle too had to find islam in the bible.  

^Indeed. . .probably because the Qur'an has no leg to stand on, and finds the crutches provided by the hadiths fragile and untrustworthy.

Pastor Kun:
Where did you get your facts from on the above assertions? Rapshody of fakealities

^Dake's Annotated Reference Bible. . .though I wouldn't go so far as calling them "facts".

Pastor AIO:
Faith's fruit is evident.

5solas:
It is the fountain from which all good works spring.

Agree with these.

Joagbaje:
It will only be deserted by the abusive agberos posters. They will either change or be Banned but more responsible posters will emerge world wide, and this section will be a world class resource Center. Not a place for harrassment

. . .you will never ever become a moderator on the religious forum. Never. Having tried everything to suppress the truth about your cult called Chris' Embassy and failed. . .you now want to be a moderator so that you can use strong arm Gestapo tactics (like your money-stealing, journalist-beating mentor) to shut others out. You don fail!
This is an open forum. If you don't like the message. . .go to yookos.

Joagbaje:
. . .this section will be a world class resource Center.

^Yeah. World-class resource center for grade A sycophancy and propaganda for Chris' Embassy.

Zikkyy:
So what is our role in the process? How then do we get to the state/stage that makes us eligible for this gift? this implies that we should not be held responsible for our actions if we don't have a say in the process.

It is God's sovereign choice. Just as you did not decide for your parents that you should be born; even so we have no input into being born from above. Or how do you read John 1:13. If it says born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.. . .what then can be our role in the process?

Zikkyy:
. . .this implies that we should not be held responsible for our actions if we don't have a say in the process.

Some might chose to reason that way. And Christians have struggled with this through the ages. But there are pertinent Bible verses that speak to this issue. . . .For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23
Since it's a gift and unearned; nothing we do can be sufficient payment for eternal life.

Consider this:

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:28-30

When we truthfully examine ourselves, can we say in all conscience that we have loved the Lord God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all our mind, and with all our strength. There have been times when our minds wandered, our hearts faltered and our strength waned (including today). . .at such times weren't we in transgression of this command. And being in transgression of this command everyday of our lives (because our love for God is not perfect), what can save us except the atoning blood of Jesus?

Also prayerfully consider the following words:

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom 9:13-16

Zikkyy:
This assumes that Christians are designed to function like robots. So what about the people being addressed in the James letter? If the ability for good works have been hard-coded into their DNA, then there won't be need for James writings.

Not robots. Christians are saved. That is the critical distinction. When a child is born. . .the neural pathways that will enable him to walk and run are present, but it needs to learn how to walk and run from the examples of others around him. Barring any untoward incident, the child will walk. He has to. And that's how it is with the Christian. He has been transformed. Dying in Christ and being born anew with a new, divine and holy nature. What is written in James etc are exhortations, reminders, examples for Christians to see and learn from. . .which is why the word "grow" occurs in the Bible.

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:2
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:14-15

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:11
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Rom 15:4

And so it is with the Christian. Like a newborn babe he is created by the Father. . .and like the newborn he needs to learn to walk in holiness. It is the walk in holiness that is characterized as works. . .but we know that this only arises because he has been made holy.

Still using the illustration of the child. He is dressed in a clean white robe which has already been washed spotless. He puts it on and goes out into the daily grind amidst admonitions to keep it unsoiled (what we see in scriptures). The truth is that the child's best efforts (his works) cannot keep the robe clean, rather only the One who cleaned it can keep it spotless.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:5

Pastor AIO:
AT night if you turn on the light you will see where all the tables and chairs are and you will be able to walk around without bumping into things. 

The clear sight and smooth walking is a direct result of the light being turned on.  If someone is still bumping into chairs then their light has not been turned on.  You cannot claim to have the light switched on and keep bumping into walls. 

When your light is on, it is evident to all.  When you have faith it is evident to all from your actions.

If you say that you have faith but you insist that the only way that you can survive and meet your expenses is by stealing then you don't actually have faith cos faith tells you that you're taken care of, even down to the last hair on your head.

Life is like walking on troubled waters, and Christ is standing a little further away beckoning to us to come to him.  With your eyes on him you stay afloat.  However it is much too easy to get distracted by the waves that are building up around us.  We started to react to the stormy waters and take our eyes off Christ.  That is when we sink.

^Do I take it that you agree that it is God that turns on the light?

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Co 4:6

Edited to remove this last line. . .

italo:
and just incase you dont know where to start from, here's another option. . .

^After you answer the questions I asked you concerning Isaiah, Abraham, the thief on the cross, the Pharisee and the Publican. . .then we can continue.

---

Zikkyy:
You made a distinction between 'genuine faith' and other type of 'faith' here. I hope you don't mind my asking, what makes a faith genuine? I am just trying to understand how it links up with the second bit of the post (i.e. "then the God-ordained works of righteousness will follow".

The answer lies in the origin or source of that faith. Genuine faith comes from God as a gift. It cannot be willed into existence by men. So we see. . .

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom 12:3

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Eph 4:7

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:12-13

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:37

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:37

And so when you consider the parable of the wheat and tares. . .

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:24

The seed did not sow themselves but the man (representing Jesus Christ) sowed [size=14pt]good[/size] seed. The bearing of [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit (representing works) is hard-coded into the [size=14pt]good[/size] seed's DNA. The seed therefore has no choice but has a genetic imperative to bear [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:37-38

Since it is the Son of Man that sows the good seed; whence comes the men claiming responsibility for the faith they possess. We understand from scripture that no one is good except God.

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mar 10:18

We are therefore given to understand that He is the source of the good seed. And even more directly we see. . .

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:16

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:4-5

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 2:11

. . .it says "they who are sanctified" (some versions read: "he who makes holy and those who are made holy". How does He make holy? I believe you know the answer to that. As Jesus told Nicodemus: You must be born again.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 2:20-21

Nominations:
Enigma

Frosbel

Pastor AIO

P.S. Why is Joagbaje campaigning for moderatorship? Mark my words: If Jo becomes a moderator, then the religious section will become a sterile desert.

italo:
Can you pls count the number of questions you have asked me in this one post? They are about ten. You just want to smother the truth with many words because I know that if I answer these ten, you'll only ask twenty more.

^You really don't know what you are talking about. I guess you are a pretender mouthing pious sounding platitudes just like the Pharisee in the parable of the Pharisee and Publican but with no experience of saving faith in Jesus. What stops you from itemizing the questions one by one and giving an answer? Doesn't the scripture say this?

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 1Pe 3:15

I provided you with biblical examples of men justified by faith apart from works and invited you to respond to these examples. And this is the silly excuse you bring. It is patently obvious you do not know the saving power of the gospel of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

italo:
Its only someone with a deceptive motive that asks this many questions in one instance. So until you are ready for a clear and transparent discussion on the role of faith and work in salvation,

^Nonsense! Open the book of Job and see how many questions God asked Job. Read the gospels and see how Jesus often started his teaching with questions.
Typical Catholic (una too dey fear to open Bible). Afraid of asking questions. Afraid of studying your bible. So you think your "works" will get you into "Purgatory".

italo:
I still say:

James 2:24: "you see that a person is considered righteous by what they do, NOT by faith alone.

^Most assuredly, doing penance or praying to Mary, Michael etc is not acceptable works in God's sight. The work God requires is to believe in the one he has sent. And that is not Mary.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti 2:5

italo:
You can't shout down the truth!

^You are right about that. Your popes can tell you how they tried and failed.

If ACN had chosen another candidate. . .then perhaps they would have stood a chance. Abubakar Audu na bad market for any party in Kogi State. Even PDP would have lost with him as their candidate.

italo:
The muslim that does good works in Allah's name has genuine faith in Allah; the buddhist who does good works in Buddha's name has genuine faith in Buddha; so also the christian who does good works in Christ's name has genuine faith in Christ. He who does not good works in Christ's name has not genuine faith in Christ.

^
What a cop-out. Again I ask you: What is faith? It would appear you are unsure what that means.

italo:
Isaiah's sins were atoned for after he did something. He said, in Isaiah 6:5: “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.” If faith alone was needed, he would not have needed to say anything or feel or express any remorse. Because he always had faith, before and after the vision, so why was mercy not shown him before he said what he said?

^
Aren't you dizzy from turning round and round? So Isaiah's words is now equivalent to works? 

Since according to you: "If faith alone was needed, he would not have needed to say anything". . .show us the words spoken by Abraham in Genesis 15:6. Wouldn't that seem to indicate that faith alone is needed because Abraham spoke no words assenting to God's promise, rather it is written: And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness

I thought you built your whole argument on James epistle? Doesn't he write this:

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:16

So mere verbal assent is not works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. Jas 2:19

But here you are saying Isaiah's verbal assent is "works".

What work did Isaiah do to merit salvation? In your haste, did you miss the significance of this:

Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. Isa 6:6-7

. . .so tell me: What does the altar represent? How did it make Isaiah holy and therefore acceptable to God? Here is a hint:

And thou shalt offer every day a bullock for a sin offering for atonement: and thou shalt cleanse the altar, when thou hast made an atonement for it, and thou shalt anoint it, to sanctify it. Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy. Exo 29:36-37

It seems you yet do not understand the nature of faith and its relationship to works, which is why you tie yourself up in contradictory knots. Now please answer these other questions which you have avoided:

Answer this question; What good works were done by this man mentioned here who received assurance of salvation from Jesus Himself: Luke 23:42-43

I ask you this: was the publican justified by his "works". What about the other man's works of "I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess."?

italo:
If a man prophesies, casts out demons and performs many miracles in Jesus name, can he be said to have no faith?

^According to Jesus' Himself, that is a possibility. . .you need to consider the parable of the wheat and tares.g54

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Mat 7:21-23

Notice how these works you profess are contrasted with the simple phrase: he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. What is the will of our Father in Heaven? Already answered in previous posts:

---

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. (1Jn 2:17)

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (Joh 6:28)

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (Joh 6:29)

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Joh 6:39-40)

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Act 13:39)

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Act 15:11)

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Act 16:31)

italo:
You guys just like confusing yourselves and others with many words.

FAITH ALONE is only found in one place in scripture. And it says there: 'faith alone, without works, cannot save'.

^Story, story. Show us here the "one place in scripture."

Instead of running to and fro like a spooked chicken; why don't you answer the questions I put to you, instead of pretending you didn't see them:

aletheia:
So the Buddhist/Muslim etc who has "good works" has "genuine faith"?

In the year that King Uzziah died when Isaiah saw the vision of the Lord. . .tell me: How was his sin atoned for and his guilt taken away? Was it by means of his "works"?

Answer this question; What good works were done by this man mentioned here who received assurance of salvation from Jesus Himself: Luke 23:42-43

I ask you this: was the publican justified by his "works". What about the other man's works of "I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess."?

Please address the points raised by these questions and stop trying to give us the runaround.

gotizsata:
https://i.imgur.com/b9Sro.jpg

^A silly and ignorant cartoon. . .being left-handed is not condemned any where in the Bible (indeed some left-handed Benjamites were commended for their skill). However men having sex with other men are condemned (for that is the veiled message of your cartoon).

You need to read the Bible more.

italo:
Who is the person that said 'faith is works'? Please tell me, I want to know.

You did. That is the import of these words of yours:

italo:
And there are still so-called christians who say you need not do anything to be saved. You just have to believe.

These Christians echo Jesus. . .for obviously you have forgotten these basic truth that even the children know:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Joh 3:16)

Moreover you ignore the message of John 1:12-13

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
(Joh 1:12-13)

italo:
Its the good works you do that make you to be considered to have "genuine faith". . .

So the Buddhist/Muslim etc who has "good works" has "genuine faith"?

In the year that King Uzziah died when Isaiah saw the vision of the Lord. . .tell me: How was his sin atoned for and his guilt taken away? Was it by means of his "works"? Here is a hint:

Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. (Isa 6:6-7)

To go back to an earlier assertion of yours:

italo:
You cannot be saved if you only have faith in Jesus and don't do good works.

Answer this question; What good works were done by this man mentioned here who received assurance of salvation from Jesus Himself:

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:42-43

Understand this then: No man can add to the completed work of Jesus. Neither by word or deed. As it is written:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:8-9
1. Saved by faith it says. . .not saved by faith and works.
2. If works were a part of the package. . .then it would no longer be the gift of God, but rather part payment for the works we have done.
3. So you see. . .Not of works, lest any man should boast.

And so this is the testimony of Abraham:

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Gen 15:6

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:3-6

Or have you forgotten these very parable of Jesus Himself:

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his bosom, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Luk 18:10-14

I ask you this: was the publican justified by his "works". What about the other man's works of "I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess."?

---

. . .but the just shall live by his faith.
Hab 2:4

Sola Fide

5solas:
^^^@Aletheia

There is nothing in this post, as long as it is,  for my criticism. Great post! 

My brother. . .

Sola Scriptura
Solus Christus
Sola Gratia
Sola Fide
Soli Deo Gloria

---

italo:
'Faith' is a noun. So 'KEEP the commandments' cannot be mere faith. 'SELL all you have and GIVE the money to the poor cannot be mere faith. "COME and FOLLOW me" cannot be mere faith. These capitalized words are all verbs and more importantly, they are all works.

^Faith is not works. . .why is this difficult for you to apprehend? Is it your "works" that please God?

. . .and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. . .(Isa 64:6)

Or is it. . .

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. (Heb 11:6)

italo:
It doesn't matter how you guys try to change the name, a spade should be called a spade, not a spear.

^Faith is not works. . .signs of life do not constitute life. . .they only mark the presence of life.
Is it by our works that God quickened us in Christ while we were yet dead in our sins?

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. [size=14pt]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.[/size] (Eph 2:5-9)

italo:
You cannot be saved if you only have faith in Jesus and don't do good works.

And what is faith? Do you understand faith to be mere assent of the Lordship of Christ? It is not. If you have genuine faith. . .then the God-ordained works of righteousness will follow.

italo:
Or maybe I should pose the same question to you guys and see your response:

Aletheia and 5solas, what must I do to inherit eternal life?

^

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. (1Jn 2:17)

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? (Joh 6:28)

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (Joh 6:29)

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. (Joh 6:39-40)

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. (Act 13:39)

But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Act 15:11)

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (Act 16:31)

Pastor AIO:
What about if he just skipped to the 'follow me' part without selling everything and giving the money to the poor?

^Let us consider the contrasting tales of two rich men:

In answering the young man's question in Matthew 19. . .Jesus said:

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. (Mat 19:21)

In the back and forth of this conversation, some of us have overlooked the young man's response which is recorded for posterity:

But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. (Mat 19:22)

The key test of faith is elucidated here: "Come and follow me". The young man was unable to forsake his wealth and follow Jesus. This story is told in all three synoptic gospels. And so. . .

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (Mat 16:24)

It is therefore interesting to note that in that rousing chapter on faith: we find these words:

Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. (Heb 11:26)

The other rich man in consideration was not told by Jesus to sell what he had, but rather of his own accord he got up and volunteered half his goods to the poor.

And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.  [Luk 19:8]

What do these two stories show us? They show us the nature of faith and affirm for us that:

. . .faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (Jas 2:17)

"Good" works cannot lead to faith and is not faith as seen in the life of the rich young man:

. . .if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Mat 19:17)

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? (Mat 19:20)

In contrast the bible clearly shows that faith leads to good works. . .as James writes:

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. (Jas 2:26)

And so we see the faith of Zacchaeus manifesting in good works. In school we were taught about the signs of life. . .and so it is with faith. A living faith will show forth good works (signs of life). Doing good works is as natural as breathing for the new creation in Christ. The new birth precedes the good works. . .not good works preceding being born from above. Our error lies in thinking that good works will precede faith and in supposing like the rich young ruler that what we consider to be "good works" is what God considers to be good works. It is not.

Jesus has already told us what the work of God is:

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.(Joh 6:29)

Faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth as Lord is the basis for any good work that a Christian undertakes. . .for it is God that gives to us the good works that we do. We are not the ones that impel ourselves to do these good works. As it is written:

For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (NIV)

So we see that God has beforehand ordained the good works we should walk in. As an example consider Jesus' reply to his disciples in John 9:

Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. (Joh 9:3)

And He goes on to say:

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. (Joh 9:4)

Also we may consider the symbolism of these verses:

And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
[Rev 19:8]

99% of the posts on this thread so far are rubbish posts. . .ignorance compounded by foolishness.

This clash is just another example of the perennial conflict between nomadic herdsmen and farmers over fertile grazing fields/farmland. It was always so and will continue to recur. . .it is not the "war" that some are desperately hoping for.

Why Windows? Try Linux --- Ubuntu 11.10 or Linux Mint 12.

^I said "He should again consider Jesus' answer to this question:" And I left it open so that you may go and look up Jesus' answer. So what do you understand by this: "COME AND FOLLOW ME"?

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.(Joh 6:29)
. . .the OP is either mistaken or seeks to deceive.
He should again consider Jesus' answer to this question:

The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
(Mat 19:20)

One man elevates Paul to the status of super-Apostle, another considers Paul a heretic. To both, this scripture is apropos:
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (2Pe 3:16)

[quote author=ekt_bear link=topic=811894.msg9638028#msg9638028 date=1322329297]http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40560748/3998056.pdf

(i'll keep this online for a few hrs but delete after that.)[/quote]^Thanks for this. But, you do realize on matters pertaining to Nigerian history. . .you shouldn't be too hasty to conclude.