₦airaland Forum

^
It seems you are hung up on labels. "Calvinism'! Calvin is not the focus of discussion here but rather the Scriptures - so I fail to see of what relevance are his alleged crimes. Please respond to the verses put up and stop muddying the waters by bandying man-made labels. . .that seems to be your new tactic seeing as your first line of propping up straw men doesn't seem to be working.

Didn't you say Judas was "saved". Do you still stick to that position?

Now please explain these verses and stop hiding behind labels:
I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. [Joh 17:6]

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. [Joh 6:37]
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [Joh 6:39]

Clearly we have established that no man can come to Jesus except the Father draws him. Since it is the Father that draws men to Jesus; whence comes personal effort? It is of no effect because the natural, carnal mind is at enmity with God and unless God directly intervenes no man will be saved. The reason we struggle with this is because we have a romanticized view of sin. . .not realizing that unsaved men are dead and enthralled to sin and cannot come to faith unless God intervenes in their hearts.

Moreover the verses above directly show that:
1. All that come to Jesus are given to Him by the Father out of the world.
2. All that come to Jesus cannot be lost by him

Note the second point which comes directly from John 6:39: Since all that come to Jesus cannot be lost by him. Why then do you suggest that some truly born-again children of God can be lost by Jesus. . .especially when John in his letter affirms that:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [1 Jn 3:8-9]
I notice how you have avoided addressing this verse. Come on, tell us what you understand by 1 John 3:9. It says: he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Zikkyy:
We are discussing choice and not the outcome of the choice. 'Willing himself to life' implies control over the outcome of the choice.

OK. Can a dead man chose anything?

I 'll respond to the other post later.

^
@Pastor Kun: Let it go man. Jo' is actually quite popular so no surprises he won.

Congrats Joagbaje.

Zikkyy:
I don't know why you keep doing this to me You take a position on my behalf and argue against it I can't remember saying one is saved based on any decision

^Will you please clarify this:

Zikkyy:
The person could have been sincere in his/her decision to become born again.

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Zikkyy:
We know the decision will not save, it's a part of the process, a step in the right direction.

So how do one become born again? what is the process like? Don't avoid this question ooh i need response from you.

^The process has zero input from us:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. [Joh 3:6-8]

Zikkyy:
No basis for comparison here. There was previously no form of existence prior to physical birth. If there was and people were given the ability to reason, nobody will want to come through a family in mushin or ajegunle, not when you have the rich options like Bill Gates, Buffet, Dangote, Otedola, GEJ, even pastor oyedepo

^
Good. Now look at the part bolded above. The spiritual parallel is this: We were spiritually dead before being created anew. Can a dead man will himself to life?

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved [Eph 2:5]

Zikkyy:
Yes, they were born of the will of God, no wahala. You referred to John 1:13 also consider John 1:11-12

John 1:11-12 (KJV)
11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12[b]But as many as received him[/b], to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

So my question is this; who makes the decision to receive or not to receive him?

^
He came unto his own, and his own received him not<<===The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? [Joh 6:41-42]

So my question is this; who makes the decision to receive or not to receive him?<<===Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, [size=14pt]EXCEPT[/size] THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day. [Joh 6:43-44]

Do you see the answer to your question: NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, [size=14pt]EXCEPT[/size] THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM

Zikkyy:
One question; is it possible for somebody that is born of God to disown him/her self, to enable him engage in those activities the father would not permit I need answers oooh don't avoid this one.

^
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [Gal 5:24]

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [1 Jn 3:8-9]

Note the underlined portions above. So the Bible's answers your question. Some one who is born of God will not "disown him/her self, to enable him engage in those activities the father would not permit. Any one who"disowns him/her self, to enable him engage in those activities the father would not permit" deceives him/her self, and was never born again to start.

So you use the phrase: born of God. You do understand that this means we are partakers of the divine nature through Jesus Christ. God does not sin and thus partakers of his divine nature, of God's righteousness are not a party to sin. This is manifestly clear in John's epistle:
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Also consider these OT verses:
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

^How about the followers who instead of holding the leaders accountable will instead shield and defend them because of being from the same tribe or religion. Both leaders and followers are culpable.

Zikkyy:
com'oon, how can you say a thing like this? The person could have been sincere in his/her decision to become born again.

A sincere decision to become born again will not save one. He needs to be given a new nature by God. The 1st chapter of John demolishes this premise of yours that one can decide to become born again? To put it in human terms: did you decide that your parents should give birth to you.

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [Joh 1:13]

That sincere decision to become born again falls under the will of the flesh, the will of man

frosbel:
. . .who like Judas were saved, but went back into sin. Hence their hearts were never in it ( the race ) in the first place.

^So Judas was saved?. . .No. Here is what Jesus said:
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve. [Joh 6:70-71]
According to Jesus: Judas Iscariot was a devil. . .are devils saved?

frosbel:
It is deceptive to suggest that they were never of us, as John was here referring to true believers

^But the verses are plain enough: if they were true believers ab initio, can you explain these underlined words:
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 Jn 2:19
You say they were "true believers" but John's words shows otherwise:
1. they were not of us: if they were "true believers", they would be of us.
2. if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: if they were "true believers", they would have continued with us.
3. their leaving us makes it evident that they were not of us and therefore not "true believers" to start with.
The meaning and language is clear but your doctrinal lenses distort the meaning.
Even the OT account of Israel out of Egypt provides a typology of this very situation.
And [i][b]a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle. [Exo 12:38][/b][/i]

frosbel:
After this great miracle, we are then required to move on to perfection and not to draw back unto perdition. There is mention that not a hint of intimate immoraility should be seen in our lives after this 'born again ' experience. We begin to show outward our inward faith , by obedience to the word of God and living holy lives.

^
I would respectfully ask you to consider the meaning of these words of yours: We begin to show outward our inward faith , by obedience to the word of God and living holy lives. Even these tell you that habitual willful disobedience means there is no inward faith to start with.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. [1 Jn 3:9]

Two earlier posts from December 5. . .

#1

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Zikkyy:
So what is our role in the process? How then do we get to the state/stage that makes us eligible for this gift? this implies that we should not be held responsible for our actions if we don't have a say in the process.

It is God's sovereign choice. Just as you did not decide for your parents that you should be born; even so we have no input into being born from above. Or how do you read John 1:13. If it says born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.. . .what then can be our role in the process?

Zikkyy:
. . .this implies that we should not be held responsible for our actions if we don't have a say in the process.

Some might chose to reason that way. And Christians have struggled with this through the ages. But there are pertinent Bible verses that speak to this issue. . . .For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Rom 6:23
Since it's a gift and unearned; nothing we do can be sufficient payment for eternal life.

Consider this:

And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
Mar 12:28-30

When we truthfully examine ourselves, can we say in all conscience that we have loved the Lord God with all our heart, and with all our soul, and with all our mind, and with all our strength. There have been times when our minds wandered, our hearts faltered and our strength waned (including today). . .at such times weren't we in transgression of this command. And being in transgression of this command everyday of our lives (because our love for God is not perfect), what can save us except the atoning blood of Jesus?

Also prayerfully consider the following words:

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Rom 9:13-16

Zikkyy:
This assumes that Christians are designed to function like robots. So what about the people being addressed in the James letter? If the ability for good works have been hard-coded into their DNA, then there won't be need for James writings.

Not robots. Christians are saved. That is the critical distinction. When a child is born. . .the neural pathways that will enable him to walk and run are present, but it needs to learn how to walk and run from the examples of others around him. Barring any untoward incident, the child will walk. He has to. And that's how it is with the Christian. He has been transformed. Dying in Christ and being born anew with a new, divine and holy nature. What is written in James etc are exhortations, reminders, examples for Christians to see and learn from. . .which is why the word "grow" occurs in the Bible.

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
1Pe 2:2
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:14-15

Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Co 10:11
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Rom 15:4

And so it is with the Christian. Like a newborn babe he is created by the Father. . .and like the newborn he needs to learn to walk in holiness. It is the walk in holiness that is characterized as works. . .but we know that this only arises because he has been made holy.

Still using the illustration of the child. He is dressed in a clean white robe which has already been washed spotless. He puts it on and goes out into the daily grind amidst admonitions to keep it unsoiled (what we see in scriptures). The truth is that the child's best efforts (his works) cannot keep the robe clean, rather only the One who cleaned it can keep it spotless.

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Rev 1:5

#2

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Zikkyy:
You made a distinction between 'genuine faith' and other type of 'faith' here. I hope you don't mind my asking, what makes a faith genuine? I am just trying to understand how it links up with the second bit of the post (i.e. "then the God-ordained works of righteousness will follow".

The answer lies in the origin or source of that faith. Genuine faith comes from God as a gift. It cannot be willed into existence by men. So we see. . .

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom 12:3

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Eph 4:7

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:12-13

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:37

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Joh 6:37

And so when you consider the parable of the wheat and tares. . .

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:24

The seed did not sow themselves but the man (representing Jesus Christ) sowed [size=14pt]good[/size] seed. The bearing of [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit (representing works) is hard-coded into the [size=14pt]good[/size] seed's DNA. The seed therefore has no choice but has a genetic imperative to bear [size=14pt]good[/size] fruit.

He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:37-38

Since it is the Son of Man that sows the good seed; whence comes the men claiming responsibility for the faith they possess. We understand from scripture that no one is good except God.

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Mar 10:18

We are therefore given to understand that He is the source of the good seed. And even more directly we see. . .

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Joh 15:16

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:4-5

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Heb 2:11

. . .it says "they who are sanctified" (some versions read: "he who makes holy and those who are made holy". How does He make holy? I believe you know the answer to that. As Jesus told Nicodemus: You must be born again.

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 2:20-21

frosbel:
^^

Don't really have time to engage in a merry go round Calvinist debate.

The Soul that Sins shall die, any person who deceives himself that he will be saved , though he sins and engages in vice is seriously deceived. !!

^
My, how you do like man-made labels. . ."Calvinist"? Why tie yourself up in knots?   I believe those labels prevent you from seeing beyond your preconceived notions.

Of course the soul that sins will die. That is the judgment pronounced on all men. . .for all have sinned.

But
. . .I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
[Rom 1:16-17]

The last six words in the verse above are as OT as the one in your post above.

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. [Rom 10:3]

frosbel:
You dig back into history , hundreds of years back to the crusades, an army that was certainly not Christian in act or word,  and use this as an example of Christian terror.

Shocking !!!!!!

You seem to be muddling up the definition of Christianity, you know, the one that Jesus Christ started with the false church.

The crusaders were not Christians, as simple as ABC.

^I made allusion to events as recent as a few years back as well. . .I even forgot to add Serbian atrocities in Bosnia. The perpetrators all called themselves Christians and believed that they were fighting for God. You say they are not Christian. I hope the irony of this situation does not escape you. Just as you claim that these are not Christian; even similarly do some Muslims claim that Boko Haram and co are not Muslims.
And I am not aware that "Christianity" has a definition.

frosbel:
And if you had read my comments on the Jos crisis, I was against the attacks on the Fulani Herdsmen and their families and still am. Violence is not justified in these circumstances.

Good for you. It however does not change the fact that religious people, whether "Christian", "Muslim", "Buddhist" or whatever can be prone to violence unless saved by Jesus.
 

frosbel:
This was a Joke !

Ok. . .hope others see it so.

^
All the verses above are elucidated by these one in my post above (I guess you didn't read it?)

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 Jn 2:19

frosbel:
God does not want Robots, he wants obedient children.

^You quoted this verse:
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. [Php 2:13]
What does the part highlighted in red mean to you?

frosbel:
And by implication therefore , this equates to Christian terror , right 

Better to battle with brooms, sticks and chains than Bombs and Axes.

This is not to excuse the deplorable behaviour of these so called 'Christians' , rather it is to put things into perspective.

^
"Christian terror" also exists. Ask the inhabitants of Kuru Karama in Plateau state. Ask the Jews and Muslims massacred in Jerusalem by the "Christian Crusaders". Ask the "Catholic" IRA versus the "Protestant" Ulster Unionists.

In any case my exact words were:

aletheia:
So you see that Muslims are not different from other religious people when it comes to violence.

Are you trying to suggest that somehow the violent behavior of these monks is more acceptable because it is not "Christian terror". The truth is that these men are ready to shed blood and kill in order to defend their idolatrous turfs as history repeatedly shows. Stop excusing their reprehensible and un-Christlike behavior. And oh yes your initial statement. . .

frosbel:
They learnt this behaviour from Hamas !!    

. . .is untrue. Be gracious enough to accept so and stop trying to divert the issue from that.

frosbel:
To suggest that we bear evil fruit and still make heaven is simply heresy.

Again who is suggesting that evil fruit will make its way into heaven? This is another straw man argument. So a "born-again" man who somehow dies and goes to hell has been lost. . .meaning God was simply unable to save him, contrary to what scripture teaches. Any one who continues to sin after being "born again" deceives himself and was not born again to start with.

The key to understanding the Kingdom of God is laid bare in the parables of Jesus. I urge you to consider again the parable of the Wheat and Tares.

An earlier post. . .

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Zikkyy:
Well. . em. . . you forgot to add Philippians 2:14

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

As you can see they can decide to abandon the work.

^First, God's purpose or work cannot be thwarted. If they decide to abandon the work (which are acts of obedience). . .

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
Luk 19:40

Second, if they abandon the work, then it probably an indication that they were not saved to begin with. (By their fruits you shall know them). That one is part of the crowd that calls itself Christian does not mean they are. Haven't you ever considered this scriptures:

And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:17

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:19

Zikkyy:
But seriously, i wasn't thinking Philippians when i made the initial post. I was just responding to what i read you say. Your post sometimes appears to conflict with the message you're sending.

^I fail to see the conflict.
God plants good seed. The good seed brings forth good fruits. . .because its genetic imperative compels it to produce good fruit. The arbiter of what constitutes good fruit/works is God himself, not man. In the parables lie the key to understanding the Kingdom as Jesus Christ said. Look again at the parable of the wheat and tares.
Most of us thinking of tares suppose that these plants are like the weeds growing on our grandfathers' farms - totally dissimilar in appearance. This is not so. The tares resemble the wheat and on occasion can be difficult to distinguish from wheat, hence the instruction:

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mat 13:29-30

Since the tares and the wheat grow together and look alike, we men are often seduced into thinking tares are wheat; not surprising given that:

. . .for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. 1 Sa 16:7

ISBE: Tares
târz (ζιζάνια, zizánia (Mat_13:25 ff), margin “darnel”): Zizania is equivalent to Arabic zuwān, the name given to several varieties of darnel of which Lolium temulentum, the “bearded darnel,” is the one most resembling wheat, and has been supposed to be degenerated wheat. On the near approach of harvest it is carefully weeded out from among the wheat by the women and children.

Zikkyy:
Yes he did, he made a request that Jesus should remember him when he (Jesus) get to his kingdom or was it the Holy Spirit talking?

^No man can come to Jesus except the Father draws him. The thief's request was an acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord, a working out of his faith in Jesus. . .do you realize both thieves asked Jesus to save them?! Why was only one saved? Look again at the passage.

Zikkyy:
How do you expect a man nailed to the cross to do any additional work.

^And doesn't this precisely show that no additional work is needed beyond Jesus Christ's blood for the salvation of souls? If the thief did no work and yet was saved. . .what does that tell us? God is able to save to the uttermost those who put their trust in him.

Zikkyy:
My understanding of your posts is that some people were pre-destined to go to heaven and others to hell. So i wonder why the apostles needed to preach the good news, or was that process a formality as well?

We are commanded to preach the gospel (It is one of the works ordained for us by God). . .and it is God who does the saving. If you believe that God knows all; why balk at the fact that from the beginning, God knew those who will have been saved at the last, and knowing this made provision for them to be saved.

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:64

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:18

And to show that our works count for nothing. . .here is one the hard sayings of Jesus.

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:10

@Frosbel: from the quoted article. . .

It was a trivial problem that , occurs every year,' said police Lieutenant-Colonel Khaled al-Tamimi about today's clash.

'Everything is all right and things have returned to normal,' he said. 'No one was arrested because all those involved were men of God.'  

It is not uncommon for guards at the church are forced to intervene in squabbles
[center].
.
.[/center]
In the 1980s, monks battled each other with chains and broomsticks over who had the right to clean a particular section of wall and beams.
[center]
.
.
.[/center]
A fight over the dusting of chandeliers around Christmas 2006 landed several men in the hospital after Greeks cleaned a chandelier using a ladder in Armenian territory.

So you see that Muslims are not different from other religious people when it comes to violence.

frosbel:
They learnt this behaviour from Hamas !!

^
Not true at all. This sort of behavior has always been there. You mustn't make everything seem as if its the Muslims' fault.

italo:
So, will a born-again who commits grave sins and fails to confess and seek God's forgiveness before death go to heaven?

This is the question you have been throwing around for a while now. I will attempt to answer your question, if you will humor me by answering a series of questions first. Are you game? Here is the first question:

What do you consider to be grave sins?

frosbel:
But faith without works is dead.

^A dead faith is no faith. . .so basically we are saved by faith alone.

frosbel:
To suggest that because Christ has forgiven us our sins, we are now free to indulge the flesh at will is False.

^This is a straw man argument. I do not see in the OP or any where else where Christ's vicarious atonement of our sins and his imputed righteousness to us is considered a license to sin.

frosbel:
We are ONLY saved if we endure to the end and hold on to our faith.

^We endure to the end because we are saved and God keeps us. I believe you are putting the cart before the horse.

frosbel:
Imputed Righteousness is a false doctrine.

Imputed righteousness is what the Bible teaches. How can it then be a false doctrine?

kingoflag:
Sometimes, its best not to indulge in convos beyond your mental capacity.

^
Your response clearly shows that you are a typical Nigerian, held captive by his emotions, given to empty bombast and refusing to synthesize facts presented to him. . .hence it took you all of one post to sink to the lowest common denominator of insults. Clearly you cannot lift your mind out of the gutter and engage in civilized conversation.

You advanced a thesis concerning Israel, as if Israel was the only country with ties to Apartheid South Africa. I showed you based on recorded historical facts how that came about, given that a priori Israel had very strong ties to African countries. But since you are full of empty posturing: you respond with insults. Obviously you can't help but respond to counter arguments with insults instead of ideas.

kingoflag:
I havent lived there since I was a child so I dont get what youre trying to imply.

^
What has this tangential drivel got to do with Israel & Apartheid South Africa. Does living outside Nigeria (either in the US or UK) validate your intellect or IQ or your opinions? Obviously interaction with Caucasians has conditioned you with an inferiority complex, which you try to relieve by engaging in gratuitous insults of your fellow Nigerians. Come back home and stop living a false life.

kingoflag:
Supporting Apartheid in South Africa means they supported the abuse and enslavement of blacks on their own land, if thats ok with you, it sure aint with me.

^
Certainly, you are making an emotional argument: In what way did my brief post translate to "[Israel] supported the abuse and enslavement of blacks on their own land [being OK by me]". If the point I am making escapes you; why don't you ask? O, I see Heaven forfend that kingoflag be seen to admit that he cannot understand a point.

Grow up, si[b]ll[/b]y child. Get a life.

Israel supported or had an alliance with Apartheid South Africa. . .so what? No permanent friends, but permanent interests is what it shows. Note that the secret defense agreement was signed in 1975. What did the OAU do in 1973? What does the term Israeli term "solidariot" mean with regards to the events that played out in 1973?

In the mid-1970s, the OAU sought to establish in a number of resolutions a connection between Israeli and South African governments. African states hoped to enlist Arab and other oil producing and exporting countries' support in their campaign against South Africa, just as Arab states, during the October 1973 war, had persuaded them to cut their ties with Israel and support the Arab league.

Source: South Africa: time running out : the report of the Study Commission on U.S. Policy Toward Southern Africa

^So it can be argued that this rather foolish policy of the OAU drove the Israelis into Apartheid South Africa's arms. Before then African countries had enjoyed close ties with Israel (For example, did you know they helped build UCH in Ibadan?).

P.S. I am not an apologist for the modern state of Israel. . .but I understand the emotional argument you are trying to make with your post (after all, Nigerians are easily manipulated through their emotions). I disagree with the picture you are trying to paint (not that any State can be regarded as altruistic though).

. . .well, his party's presidential candidate called them rebels.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-820024.0.html

oyb:
the SW

^They have history and Awolowo to thank for that.

oyb:
the SS will disintegrate into civil war, fighting each other for control. you will see blood oil

^Quite right. Sierra Leone's civil war was driven by the blood diamonds trade. Expect even worse chaos in the SS as local "generals' angle for a share of oil loot, as blood oil fuels a trade in arms in exchange for oil, as foreign mercenaries, arms dealers, multinationals and the Western Powers pile in.

oyb:
the SE will disintegrate into a hotbed of unbridled crime. it happened in the late 90s, which led to the bakassi boys, happened again last year - and is still ongoing, only not as noisy as before

^Naturally. There is something self-destructive in the psyche of the SE that will ensure that this is the natural order. Local crime lords with limited spheres of influence will arise and make life hell for the SE. They will export their crime to neighboring Kogi, Benue, Akwa Ibom, Cross River, Rivers.

oyb:
the north will disintegrate into mindless quasi islamic violence

Not necessarily. The NW will be the most peaceful out of the regions that emerge from a hypothetical split-up Nigeria. However expect conflict and pockets of ethnic cleansing and genocide in Plateau, Southern Kaduna, Adamawa and Taraba as generations of rage come to the boil. The NE of course will morph into a Somalia-type quagmire.

All said: I don't expect Nigeria to disintegrate. The new world order doesn't require it. . .but there will be crisis and conflict as the country is reconfigured.

Beaf:
My fear is that boko haram has sympathetic military and police backing.

^Of course they have. . .but what is needed is a calm reasoned approach that involves isolating these elements and declawing and defanging them. Not all "core-northerners" are BH sympathizers or didn't you read how in Kano local Muslims chased down and help apprehend BH operatives? So we can hardly expect that in the military and police that all "core-northerners" are BH. Besides when you read the list of names of military and police BH-induced casualties, you will find that "core-northerners" predominate.

What you suggest is a sure fire way to feeding the sense of us-against-them that is almost inbred into the average far northerner and thus providing more recruits for the BH cause. We need to learn lessons from the American mistakes in Iraq. They disbanded the Republican Guard and the Baath party and thus provided well-trained soldiers for the ensuing insurgency.

By keeping the elements sympathetic to BH within the military albeit isolated; you can control them and turn them to your advantage.

The solution to the BH problem doesn't need the drastic measures you suggest. With firm political will: BH can be eradicated within 2-3 years.

publisher:
Trust me,what we witnessed today was child's play compared to BH's original plan.

^I concur. It's easy to see that if one can reads the tea leaves. The spate of bomb "factories" blowing up over the last few days (I suspect some sort of covert ops involved) plus the army's offensive in Yobe pretty much tells the story.

Beaf:
Such a purge will be temporary, but necessary.

^I never expected such a poorly thought out and hysterical post from you.  

Beaf:
The other alternative would be more blood to split the nation.

How does your suggestion reduce bloodshed? It pretty much guarantees an even bloodier conflict involving soldiers. Ask the residents of Obalende their experience on April 22, 1990.

You need to calm down.

[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=832007.msg9829754#msg9829754 date=1324761785]. . .they "NEED" its presence and volatility.[/quote]^I see. . .
They need its presence for precisely what? To cow the rest of us into submission and hand over our secular state to them? If as you say:
[quote author=Negro_Ntns link=topic=832007.msg9829754#msg9829754 date=1324761785]The po;itical aspiration of Northern muslims had always been to camp with the IOC. Boko's ideology for an Islamically independent region harmonizes well with that aspiration.[/quote]I don't see the rest of the country being against their leaving the union. . .in fact plenty of us are praying for just such an outcome because we are tired. Indeed, Gideon Orkar obliged them in 1990. . .so what are "Northern muslims" waiting for? Let them declare "Araba" as they did in 1966. This time around we will not oppose them leaving Nigeria.

kingoflag:
Everyone, read the bolded and say hi to this Super-Intelligent Imb*ecile.

Wow.

^

Beaf:
--Beaf looks into kingoflags head, stirs the akanmu between his ear's and hits a stone! Gaddem!--

The politics section of Nairaland is always good for laughs. Quite a lot of people do rush to comment without thinking through the facts. We Nigerians are too often led by our emotions and don't want to be confused by the facts.

Aviation fuel is more or less kerosene. Planes fly on kerosene.

Abagworo:
Dpk and Atk can be used by any air craft. Dpk does not in anyway compromise the safety of an aircraft but the problem here is the economic sabotage. This is part of the reason why subsidy removal is very important.


Let us analyse the fraud being perpetuated by Sahara Oil. They import Dpk at a landing and profit cost of 130 Naira per liter and Government pays them 90 Naira as subsidy. That way they have already made profit and recovered the money invested. The fraud is that rather than sell to the local consumers at 40 Naira, they still went ahead to sell at more than 130 Naira to the airlines thereby making another profit of 90 Naira per liter.

^This is the most sensible post so far. The portion highlighted above is the real problem but trust we Nigerians to major in minors, to leave the substance and chase the shadow. . .because we are largely devoid of facts and don't read.

Abagworo:
This is part of the reason why subsidy removal is very important.

^I agree 100% with this statement.

May kelly:
More anti-christ are yet to come.  Beware of  your state politicians.

^And the hysteria starts simply because:

Dr Know:
Fashola explained that churches and mosques, who owned buildings used for business purposes, were not exempted from paying taxes to the government because they earn income from such businesses.
. . .Churches that run businesses should give something back to the government.

He's not even taxing the churches directly, just saying that they must pay tax on any business that they run. Are churches supposed to be running businesses? BTW Jesus himself paid taxes.

Dr Know:
The governor also said tax should be paid on gifts received by individuals.

^How precisely does Mr Fashola intend to enforce this?

. . .reading the article. It appears the listed schools have all lost their accreditation to train doctors.

He added that the Medical and Dental Council of Nigeria (MDCN) had also advised that they suspend accreditation of some medical schools in the country.

“The decision only applies to students who graduated from those medical schools after the MDCN suspended their accreditation,” Day said

Not surprised University of Jos is on the list. They lost their accreditation earlier in the year. Reason? Admitting 600+ students for Medicine in 100 level whereas they are accredited to train only 100 doctors each year courtesy of an admissions racket where people pay for admission into Medical school.
These things happen and we think it wont come back and bite us.

[quote author=alj_harem link=topic=828088.msg9793728#msg9793728 date=1324265307]Fashola had told a Town Hall meeting that his administration paid [size=14pt]N4billion[/size] to the concessionaire for as long as his directive to suspend tolling lasted.[/quote]^How much did the road cost to start with? This sounds really fishy to me. N4 billion?

Do you refer to this?
www.nairaland.com/attachments/596287_374234_10150431563611849_627116848_8602500_1623499720_n_jpgbf73bbf9df68e03c21009aa4c7ede4a5

Deep Sight:
^ His response is rather beside the point  - at least as far as the OP is concerned.

I 've already indicated what was wrong with the OP; and how any Christian ought to pray in these days. If it escapes both you and Jo. . .no problem. Those who will hear will hear.
And read again Christ's prayer in Gethsemane. . .there are certain points therein that escape disobedient children.

Joagbaje:
Frustration  

^
You wish. What is there for me to be frustrated about? Keep running.

Joagbaje:
The world already is struggling to come out of economy mess . A war like this will rather lead to more economic chaos.

^
For you, it always boils down to money. More economic chaos. . .so what? You are ignorant of Bible prophecy and God's determined counsel and purpose:

And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. [Rev 6:4-8]

Keep deceiving yourself and your minions that you can delay Christ's coming and the Judgment that is coming upon the world.

Joagbaje:
Aletheia said I should have thought of women and children. That's very funny. War is between military personels .mDo women and children go to war? Is it not the economic condition that will affect everybody either children or women. These are part of the manipulations of innocent posts.

^Apparently in a million years, you will not understand the nature of modern warfare. Go and find out how many hundreds of thousands of civilians died as a direct result of the war in Iraq. . .how many are still dying (even DS understood that).
Since your understanding of Christ is centred on money, the only thing you see to pray about is the World Economy. . .despite the scriptural admonition that tells us this world and all its glory is passing away.
Since your understanding of Christ is centred on money; you cannot even comprehend Matthew 24, and the various exhortations in scriptures that caution us that when these things begin to happen we should understand that Christ draws nigh. . .and even tells us in 2 Peter to hasten his return.

You are typical of the false prophets, such as described in Jeremiah:

Nevertheless hear thou now this word that I speak in thine ears, and in the ears of all the people; The prophets that have been before me and before thee of old prophesied both against many countries, and against great kingdoms, of war, and of evil, and of pestilence. The prophet which prophesieth of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him. [Jer 28:7-9]

Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart. [Jer 14:13-14]

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.
[Jer 23:16-17]

You say:

Joagbaje: This particular war should not be fought at this time. It will have effect on nations. The world has enough trouble to deal with.

F00lish man! Who are you to determine the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Who are you to gainsay the established word of God:

But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: [Luk 21:9-10]

And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. [Luk 21:25-28]

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Keep prophesying your deceits and lulling yourself and your minions into a false sense of security:

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
[1Th 5:3]

Keep on with your deluded rants and boasts; Jesus Christ described your sort of churches to a T:

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy unclothedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. [Rev 3:17-18]

Keep deluding yourself until the Day of the Lord takes you unawares but true children of the Most High will not be deceived by the likes of you.
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. [1Th 5:4-6]