₦airaland Forum

Azibalua:
What a very high level of contradiction
You contradict yourself a lot,

^
. . .is what you said in response to this two statements:

every time I counter your false teachings and you find you can't make any headway. You resort to shouts of "aletheia is abusing joagbaje" and yet you cannot and have not been able to produce a single post of me "abusing" you or using vile words either today or in the past

but like I promised you a couple of months back, as long as God gives me strength, I will not relent in exposing you and your cult called Christ Embassy

Christ Embassy is a cult. Make of the statement what you will. . .but it cannot by any means be characterized as "vile words" or "abuse" of joagbaje. Of course, right on cue he shows up and says this:

Joagbaje:
"I don't abuse joagbaje,but he's a cultist"

If we look at these 14 characteristics of a cult:

1. The group is focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.
2. The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
3. The group is preoccupied with making money.
4. Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
5. Mind-numbing techniques (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, debilitating work routines) are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
6. The leadership dictates sometimes in great detail how members should think, act, and feel (for example: members must get permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married; leaders may prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, and so forth).
7. The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and members (for example: the leader is considered the Messiah or an avatar; the group and/or the leader has a special mission to save humanity).
8. The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which causes conflict with the wider society.
9. The group's leader is not accountable to any authorities (as are, for example, military commanders and ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream denominations).
10. The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify means that members would have considered unethical before joining the group (for example: collecting money for bogus charities).
11. The leadership induces guilt feelings in members in order to control them.
12. Members' subservience to the group causes them to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group.
13. Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group.
14. Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

It is clear where Christ Embassy falls.

^You ought not to bother. You know Islam and factual history are strange bed-fellows. Fanciful fairy tales is what they revel in. The irony of this discussion is that they ignore the history of Alexander's Empire (whom they claim for themselves as Dhul-Qarnayn).

Joagbaje:
. . .althiea cannot stand a discussion with me, thats why he/she ends up with ungodly abuses. I've given benefit of doubt few occasion but the demonic venom inside can't just hold, it's always expressed in vile words. If you have truth to share,you will share it in love. That's why I hardly respond.

^
You are quite an interesting character "Pastor" Jo. Thank God, this is a public forum and my post history is available to all to confirm if ever I have abused you as you say. Every time I counter your false teachings and you find you can't make any headway. You resort to shouts of "aletheia is abusing joagbaje" and yet you cannot and have not been able to produce a single post of me "abusing" you or using vile words either today or in the past.

You say you own the world. . .and I showed you clear incontrovertible bible verses that show that your claims are false. Instead you launch your usual campaign. Go ahead; the forum rules are clear. Report me to the moderator for abusing you. . .but like I promised you a couple of months back, as long as God gives me strength, I will not relent in exposing you and your cult called Christ Embassy.

No matter how you twist and turn and engage in maudlin antics, know this: You cannot pray away God's determined purpose and counsel.

dare2think:
You call the text of the bible trash!

I thought you always wanted a debate base on the 'scriptures'?

Here you are ridiculing it,

If alethea's post is thrash, what do you call your silly assertions that you own the world?

Do you own china?

Funny guy.

^He has always called any post that demolishes his lies using bible verses thrash. This is not the first time. . .and it won't be the last unless he repents. But I 'm happy he keeps exposing himself with each day.

Joagbaje:
Psalms 50:12
. . for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof.

^Balaam's ride had more scriptural sense than you! How does Psa 50:12 parlay into "I OWN THE WORLD"? O, I forgot: you are a god.

Joagbaje:
So what world is Abraham heir? Search the scriptures. If Abraham is heir of the world ,I am.  Hope it's clear now.

You are as usual sadly mistaken; in your haste and no doubt clouded by your false "gospel" of greed you fail to understand this:

The world to be inherited is not this present one. . .but that which is to come.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, [1Pe 1:3-4]

So tell me: Is this present world "an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you"?

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. [2Pe 3:13]

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. [Rev 21:2]

For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. [Heb 11:10]

But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.[Heb 11:16]

For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. [Heb 13:14]
And in 2 Pe 3:13 we see:
These things then all being loosed, what kind of persons must you be in holy behavior and piety, expecting and hastening the arrival of the day of God, by which the heavens being set on fire shall be loosed, and the elements being destroyed by fire shall melt away? [2Pe 3:11-12 ABP]

It asks the question what kind of persons must you be: and shows how we should be expecting and hastening the arrival of the day of God  but you would have us pray against God's determined plan and counsel "because it will affect the entire world economically and otherwise."

chrisj2000:
[size=14pt]we[/size]'re no more interested in quoting bible without any physical evidence to back them up. [size=14pt]We [/size]want proofs, don't show us where it's written but prove that those written words are true through prayer.

^
First: my post was not directed at you. . .so your comment is irrelevant to this discussion.
Second: what exactly do you mean by we? Abi una many? 

And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. [Mar 5:9]

P.S. What are you still doing on Nairaland? I thought you wanted all your posts deleted?

Joagbaje:
. . .carnal and sensual people like you. . .

Aren't you just the hypocrite? As it is written: out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks, and by their fruits we shall know them.

Tell us what better example of carnality and sensuality can be provided than this your statement:

Joagbaje:
I OWN THE WORLD.

^
I am happy because with each day that passes, despite your attempts to project a false piety, your words reveal and show exactly who you are. . .a deceiver. So you own the world, do you? For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. [Heb 4:12]
It is the Word of God that judges and exposes you:
Jesus says:
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? [Mat 16:26]
. . .but Joagbaje says: "I OWN THE WORLD."

Jesus says:
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. [1Jn 2:15-17]
. . .but Joagbaje says: "I OWN THE WORLD."

Jesus says:
Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. [Col 3:2]
. . .but Joagbaje says: "I OWN THE WORLD."

Jesus says:
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. [1Jn 5:19]
. . .but Joagbaje says: "I OWN THE WORLD."
And manifests his cupidity by praying against Jesus' revealed prophecy in Matthew 24 because "because it will affect the entire world economically and otherwise."

And so is revealed that Joagbaje's god is Mammon for that is why he is worried about the world economy in the advent of war.

^You are right. "Pastor" Jo does not even think about the potential deaths of thousands or possibly millions of men, women and children that a war will portend; rather what he's worried about is the world's economy.
Truly, his god is his belly.

True Christians will chose to side with Jesus' words in scripture:
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
[Luk 21:25-28]

Joagbaje:
You are wrong as usual dude . May god deliver you from your carnal minded ness .

^Sharrap there. . .War is coming as Jesus prophesied (you can't pray it away) and all you see to pray about is the world's economy?

Joagbaje:
War seem to be looming , we should pray against such, because it will affect the entire world economically and otherwise.

I repeat:

aletheia:
^
. . .and if it affects "the entire world economically and [sic]otherwise". . .there will be less tithes and all that humbug for you. . .

You love the world too much. . .

War comes. So what?

You need to learn to listen to Jesus more. . .and pray in line with his will.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[Mat 24:6]

^^
That means Catholic nuns must be the most advanced form of life on this earth. . .and Catholicism existed way before Islam.

Joagbaje:
War seem to be looming , we should pray against such, because it will affect the entire world economically and otherwise.

For more : http://www.dawn.com/2011/12/14/us-at-risk-of-sliding-into-war-with-iran-brzezinski.html

^
. . .and if it affects "the entire world economically and [sic]otherwise". . .there will be less tithes and all that humbug for you. . .

You love the world too much. . .

War comes. So what?

You need to learn to listen to Jesus more. . .and pray in line with his will.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[Mat 24:6]

LagosShia:
great!

this is what you should care doing.preach your religion and what it says.no one would harrass you or refute you or expose your religion.

but when you try to provoke others particularly Muslims Christians,you'd just be digging your own grave with your own hands.this has being my message to you all along.

^Take your own advice. . .hypocrite!

@uplawal: if your problem is hijab, why did you leave one "hijab-wearing" religion:
https://www.catholichomeandgarden.com/images/Costumes/Nun%20Veil%20and%20Bib.jpg
to another hijab-wearing one:
https://www.thehijabshop.com/press/images/THS_IKEA-HIJAB_01_sml.jpg

Isn't that called jumping from frying pan to fire?

Was There A World Before Genesis 1?

No.

Nothing new under the sun. The age which one prescribes for the earth is extremely dependent on one's view of creation. There are five major theories on the interpretation of the six days of creation.

1. The pictorial day theory claims that the six days mentioned in Genesis are the six days in which God revealed to Moses the events of creation. But the bible relates the creation as clearly, simply, and historically as it does other events. To interpret the text in this manner requires the abandonment of all exegetical principles.

2. The gap view claims that Genesis 1:1 describes and original creation which was followed by the fall of Satan and great judgment. Genesis 1:2 is then supposed to be a description of the recreation or restoration that took place. The Old Scofield Bible [Also Dake's Bible] maintains that the condition of the earth in verse two is the result of judgment, and therefore interprets the verb "hayah" as "became". However the Hebrew construction of verse two is disjunctive, describing the result of the creation described in verse one. The phrase "without form and void" is often misunderstood because of this rendering. These words are found only in a few other places (Is 34:11; 45:18; Jer 4:23). They do not describe chaos but rather emptiness and so would mean "unformed and unfilled". Exodus 20:11 teaches that all the universe, including the heavens and the earth, was created in the six day period mentioned in Genesis 1.

3. The intermittent view claims that the days mentioned are literal days, but that they were separated by long periods of time. This view is in direct contradiction of Exodus 20:11 and conveniently ignores the recurring phrase: "And the evening and the morning. . ." which describes the passage of the six days.

4. The day-age theory claims that the word "yom" which is the Hebrew word for "day" is used to refer to periods of indefinite length, not to literal days. While this is a viable meaning of the word, it is not the common meaning, nor is the meaning of the word sufficient foundation for the theory. Moreover it ignores the clearly stated meaning of Exodus 20:11. The phrase "And the evening and the morning" indicates literal days (cf. Daniel 8:14, where the same phrase in Hebrew is translated "day"

5. The literal day view accepts the clear meaning of the text: the universe was created in six literal days. The various attempts to join together the biblical account of creation and evolution are not supportable even by the various gap theories.

God of His own will and by His absolute power called the universe into being, creating it out of nothing (Ex 20:11; Ps 33:6, 9; 102:25; Is 45:12; Jer 10:12; John 1:3; Acts 14:15; 17:24; Rom 4:17; Col 1:15-17; Heb 3:4; 11:3; Rev 4:11). When one acknowledges the absolute power of God, he must accept His power to create and destroy as stated in the Scriptures. The believer must accept these things by faith.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

I believe the world was created in six days because God said so.

---

nlemonwu A:
simple question: was there a world before Genesis 1? if not please answer these questions.
1. there is no record of the creation of water in genesis 1. so when was it created?

Water was created in the beginning. Where in the text does it suggest that water was not created in Genesis 1:1, unless you are adding your preconceptions and making the text say what it does not.

Genesis 1:1-2 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

nlemonwu A:
2. what did God mean when He asked man to re-plenish the earth? remember replenish means to fill up something that has been depleted.

Again you interpolate your own presuppositions. What does the scripture itself say:

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

What is the meaning of the word replenish as used by the translators of the KJV?
[quote author=Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English]Replenish
REPLEN'ISH, v.t. [L. re and plenus, full.]

1. To fill; to stock with numbers or abundance. The magazines are replenished with corn. The springs are replenished with water.

Multiply and replenish the earth. Gen 1.

2. To finish; to complete. [Not in use.]

REPLEN'ISH, v.i. To recover former fullness.[/quote]Thus you rush to use the second intransitive form of the word while conveniently ignoring the first transitive meaning!

What about the Hebrew word translated "replenish"?
[quote author=Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries]מלא מלא
mâlê' mâlâ'

A primitive root, to fill or (intransitively) be full of, in a wide application (literally and figuratively): - accomplish, confirm, + consecrate, be at an end, be expired, be fenced, fill, fulfil, (be, become, X draw, give in, go) fully (-ly, -ly set, tale), [over-] flow, fulness, furnish, gather (selves, together), presume, replenish, satisfy, set, space, take a [hand-] full, + have wholly.[/quote][quote author=Brown-Driver-Briggs’ Hebrew Definitions]מלא / מלא
mâlê' / mâlâ'
BDB Definition:
1) to fill, be full
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to be full
1a1a) fulness, abundance (participle)
1a1b) to be full, be accomplished, be ended
1a2) to consecrate, fill the hand
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be filled, be armed, be satisfied
1b2) to be accomplished, be ended
1c) (Piel)
1c1) to fill
1c2) to satisfy
1c3) to fulfil, accomplish, complete
1c4) to confirm
1d) (Pual) to be filled
1e) (Hithpael) to mass themselves against
Part of Speech: verb[/quote]And so you see other translations of the same verse say:
[quote author=Genesis 1:28 (ESV)]Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."[/quote][quote author=Genesis 1:28 (LITV)]Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them; and God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it, and rule over the fish of the seas, and over birds of the heavens, and over all beasts creeping on the earth.[/quote]

nlemonwu A:
3. when God banished lucifer from heaven which earth did he fall to? was it the one that already contained adam and eve?

Yes.

Ezekiel 28:13-15 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. (14) Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. (15) Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

@Topic:

Sometime earlier this year, I posted on this forum a personally researched article on this same claim titled The Curious Incident Of Mohammed Abacha: The Limits Of Mythomania.

I reproduce here the first post on that thread since I believe it is germane and apropos to this attempt at historical revisionism by GenBuhari

---

The Curious Incident Of Mohammed Abacha: The Limits Of Mythomania.

Since the more ardent of Muhammadu Buhari's supporters (some of whom are close friends) have tried to convince me that his unique selling point is his incorruptibility, then it behooves me to carefully consider if that is indeed the case in an objective way.

In order to understand the gravity of Mohammed Abacha's running for governor of Kano State on the CPC platform and the damage it does to General Buhari's credibilty as a paragon of anti-corruption, we need to consider the evidence of history and see how General Buhari's (and CPC's) handling of Mohammed Abacha candidacy is at odds with Buhari's claim to incorruptibilty. Actions speak louder than words. The evidence against Mohammed Abacha has been in the public domain, so Buhari and CPC have no excuse to claim that they did not know what sort of man Mohammed Abacha is before accepting him in the party.

"In addition to freezing about USD 640 million, the Swiss judicial authorities handling the case have also indicted Mohammed Abacha and Atiku Bagudu under Swiss legislation concerning money-laundering, fraud and taking part in a criminal organisation"

[see page 2 of the following link: http://www.assetrecovery.org/kc/resources/org.apache.wicket.Application/repo?nid=78488349-a33e-11dc-bf1b-335d0754ba85].

"In the context of those proceedings, the Federal Republic of Nigeria was able to demonstrate that Mohammed ABACHA had failed to disclose his assets in Switzerland and in Luxembourg, which exceeded 1.1 billion US$. This lack of disclosure had, however, no direct effect on the proceedings (although of course it dented Mohammed ABACHA’s credibility as a witness). In July 2001, separate proceedings were commenced before the High Court of Justice of London, relating to the embezzlement of 2 billion US$ from the Central Bank of Nigeria under false security pretences [see page 4 of the document at the following link: www.icc-ccs.org/home/fraudnet/publications/finish/5/46].

It is my opinion that this laxity with respect to Mohammed Abacha demonstrates a consistent pattern of behaviour on the part of General Buhari. It is my thesis that he may be perceived as not being personally corrupt but he often turns a blind eye to corruption of close associates. Witness the 53 suitcases allegation that still dogs him 27 years later. Witness his infamous declaration that "Sani Abacha was not corrupt". A statement that is given the lie by the evidence in various courts around the world. Does Muhammadu Buhari's definition of corruption exclude close associates? That the late Sani Abacha is a close associate is easily gleaned by the fact that he appointed him to head the Petroleum Trust Fund.

The Guardian Newspaper of November 3, 2002 reports on the audit of the Petroleum Trust Fund: "It is a horrendous story of criminal negligence, cynical fraud, and unprecedented disregard for all civilised standards of prudence and transparency in the disbursement of public funds. In the end, the independent consultants concluded that of the N181 billion that accrued to PTF in the four and a half years of its existence between July 1994 and July 1999, as much as N25 billion was either stolen or improperly expended."

And: ". . .when Gen. Buhari was invited to comment on the findings of the committee's consultants regarding the conduct of the empire over which he presided, he coyly retorted that he was not aware that such massive fraud went on his watch, but that in any event, he could not have benefited personally from the hideous purloining of the treasury." Former president Shagari who he overthrew was not personally corrupt, but his ministers were and yet Buhari held him responsible for the failings of his government. But in Buhari's case he disavowed all personal responsibility. Is this not bare-faced hypocrisy given that he was the one that unilaterally appointed Afri-Projects Consortium as the intervention fund's sole consultant?

Is General Buhari now also exempt from responsibility for the corrupt acts of his appointees? But the question needs to be asked: Is corruption only defined by the perception that one has not dipped his hand into the public treasury? What about if your associates are known to have been indicted as corrupt? In the Daily Trust edition of 30, March 2011, we read: "Presidential candidate of the Congress for Progressive Change (CPC) General Muhammadu Buhari was in Kano yesterday for the North-west state-by-state presidential campaign but refused to raise the hands of either the INEC-recognised Muhammad Abacha or the party’s recognised retired General Lawal Jafaru Isa as the party’s governorship candidate in the state."

What a weak and tepid response to serious corruption-related issues by a man who his more ardent mythomaniacs tell us is the solution to Nigeria's corruption. They hope their persistent hagiographization will deflect attention from the present. We live in the present and whatever decisions we make concerning General Buhari's candidacy in 2011 must take into account his actions in 2011. Mohammed Abacha has never hidden his ambition to become Kano State governor. He was once in the ANPP before migrating to CPC. Knowing this, they could easily have denied him the CPC platform.

There are serious questions that General Buhari (or supporters) should answer. Why did they accept Abacha as a member of the CPC with the weight of these indictments hanging on his neck? In responding to this question, CPC says this: "In a statement last weekend, the CPC said apart from the alleged inducement of delegates, the party was not also comfortable with Abacha’s candidature because of his numerous alleged indictments by the federal government and the United States of America, which it said he refused to disclose to the party." This as far as I am concerned is a very weak response that only the undiscerning will fall for. The Abacha case was widely publicized and the indictments were widely reported in local and foreign media [as attested by the SaharaReporters link at the end of the page]. This excuse is downright silly and is obviously a late attempt at damage control.

Having become convinced that he procured his nomination through corrupt "money politics", why did the CPC not expel him from the party? After all, one would expect that for a political party running on a supposed anticorruption platform, their party constitution would spell out punitive measures for corruption-related activities such as "money politics". In response to this, the general's supporters tell us that CPC has appealed the court judgment declaring Mohammed Abacha the CPC candidate and the general is waiting for the court's pronouncement. As far as I am concerned this is another "rule of law" ruse a la James Ibori. This situation could have been so easily prevented by denying Abacha membership of the party.

If Muhammadu Buhari's CPC (his personal vehicle for his 3rd attempt at the Presidency), where his word is revered, is acting in such a weak and permissive manner concerning Mohammed Abacha, a man indicted on charges pertaining to money-laundering, fraud and taking part in a criminal organisation; how does he expect me to take him serious with respect to his anti-corruption credentials? After all my friends have assured me that in the cut and thrust and wheeling and dealing of representative democracy, General Buhari is going to jail all corrupt governors, senators, etc.

It is my conclusion that General Buhari's present actions in the case of Mohammed Abacha are at variance with the picture presented by his supporters of a committed anti-corruption crusader.

Links.

http://www.assetrecovery.org/kc/node/52f770df-a33e-11dc-bf1b-335d0754ba85.2

http://www.saharareporters.com/article/mohammed-abacha-becomes-kano-governor

donnie:
Also I support the motion to have Joeagbaje as moderator as that will bring some sanity to the religion section.

^Is there a vacancy for moderator, that you guys are trying to foist your agenda on us?

". . .that will bring some sanity to the religion section."

Story, story. . .you mean bring censorship to the religion section. If you lot don't like this forum as it is, go elsewhere.

^So the hijab is your problem, right? What about the oppression of women in the name of your god and prophet? There you go taking off at a tangent as usual. What are you doing about injunctions such as a woman not driving a car? Or the more recent confounded tomfoolery about bananas and cucumbers?

Is it the hijab that is your problem? You didn't see the portion below in your post?

LagosShia:
Tawakkol Karman will be the youngest person to receive the prize
The peace prize committee awarded the prize to Karman, Johnson-Sirleaf and Gbowee for championing women's rights in regions where oppression is common

Talk about tunnel vision!

Now what region is Karman from? The Middle-East - home to Islam, (the religion that oppresses women).

@Topic. . .a conclave of thieves.

ogajim:
If your pastor Chris was married, where is his wife and kids?
. . .One would think a real Christian husband and father would share his memorable occassion with his immediate family,

^
Excellent question.

@Topic. . .

^
Dem neva call your name for this thread. . .abi you dey report yourself?

nagoma:
Many posters for some reason believe that fulanis are killing the farmers in Benue. Not true. The truth is that fulanis are herdsmen and the tivs in Benue are farmers , the same thing obtains all over the north , the settler farmers are in constant dispute with the Fulani herdsmen in, kano, katsina, kaduna, plateau gombe, adamawa, Zamfara, Keats and practically everywhere.

^Firstly, quite a lot of people who post on NL are ignorant about history and the reality of Nigeria (especially the ethnic champions that abound here crying about Ojukwu etc). What you have written above is the reality on ground they chose to ignore in favor of their preferred fantasy of some sort of just desserts of a Hausa/Fulani versus MB conflict anytime they see headlines of Fulani Herdsmen clashing with farmers.

Secondly, this ignorance of history (no doubt attributable to poor education) comes to the fore where it concerns the identity of the Middle-Belt. The struggle for a separate Middle-Belt identity has always been there since before 1960. No doubt, the ethnic champions here do not know that in the First Republic, for example Zik's NCNC won significant numbers of votes in that region. Or that in the Second Republic, the governor of Plateau State was from NPP (Zik's party).

The struggle for a separate Middle-Belt region is as old as that of the Niger Delta for a separate identity but was scuttled by the British (see the Willink Commission Report) who were only interested in preserving Hausa/Fulani hegemony in post-indepence Nigeria.

The Middle-Belt youth speak for us. We the Middle-Belt people have waited 50 years for this day. And our time has come.

NORTHERN leaders, yesterday, met in Kaduna to seek solution to the crises of confidence among the various tribes in the zone, even as some notable traditional rulers in the North Central area and Middle Belt were conspicuously absent.

Apart from fromer Head of State, General Yakubu Gowon, who is from Plateau State and the Sultan of Sokoto, Alhaji Abubakar Sa’ad III who attended the peace conference, their contemporaries like General Theophilus Yakubu Danjuma, and His Highness, Asaph Zadok, Hama Bachama were absent.

Others who did not attend the well publicised event include, the Attah of Igala, Dr Aliyu Obaje; the Tor Tiv, Dr. Alfred Tokula; the Ochi of Idoma land, Chief Ageba Idu Elias, the Ponzi Tarok of Lantang Gen. Domkat Bali (rtd), and the Gwatyap of Kataf land, Engr. Harrison Bungwon

Other absentees were, Gbom Gwon Jos, Gyang Buba.

^Read my posts again. Salvation is by faith alone.

Gbawe:
My guy, this is arrogant elitism even if you don't see it.

Arrogant elitism? Please be objective. Not only was your source article riddled with outlandish claims of 6000 "ex-militants" but the claims of the so-called militants do not stand up to close scrutiny. For example: there were 1600 of them and guess what? All of them were "generals" with foot soldiers. Really? How many ND miltants were there, to start with?

“The 1,600 militants en-route to Abuja are all generals whose foot soldiers laid down their arms. Now, the foot soldiers are tired of excuses we are giving them. They are already suspecting we have collected the money from the government and only come back to deceive them.”

http://www.thenationonlineng.net/2011/index.php/news/29196-chaos-on-abuja-lokoja-road.html

Don't you know the mentality of the average Nigerian when it comes to free money. Some people now see the Amnesty programme has a means to free government handouts. . .and so all sorts of people now crawl out of the woodwork and call themselves militants in order to access that money.

Please look beyond the rhetoric.

I maintain that they are thugs and miscreants who had no business going to Abuja.

Zikkyy:
I hope i have answered your question

^Yes. . .

Gbawe:
It is about abuse of power that breaches the funamental human rights of Nigerians.

^Bros, you don dey fall my hand, well, well. I am no fan of any Nigerian government talkless of GEJ, but let me ask you this: how does preventing an influx of hoodlums into the Federal Capital constitute a breach of the fundamental human rights of Nigerians? How about the thousands of Nigerians who were held up in their journeys by the lawless act of the so-called militants in barricading the Abuja-Lokoja road? What of their own fundamental human rights? Shouldn't the government have taken responsibility and acted?
I see them as thugs and miscreants who have no business going to Abuja.

Gbawe:
They are now constantly stopping any group , through Lokoja, who wish to go into Abuja to protest against the FG or show solidarity for anyone opposing the FG.

^How many groups have been stopped, that it has become "constantly stopping any group"? Take it easy man. Don't let anger cloud objectivity.

Gbawe:
How is that a good development and what brings "bitterness" into this? Are you not a Nigerian? Is my point lost on you? Even If we think everyone criticising the Government does so out of bitterness then we should still minimally inspect what they are saying and comment on that . That is how citizens do it in other Nations to the extent their nation became great.

^Your tone sounds bitter. News can always be reported in ways that favor a particular angle. Here is another report of the same incident:

ECONOMIC activities in Kogi State were, on Thursday, brought to a halt as a  group of Niger Delta ex-militants blocked the Murtala Muhammed bridge in Lokoja, which links the South with Abuja, the Federal Capital Territory.

The ex-militants, numbering about 1,600, who were on their way to the presidency, to protest against the non-fulfilment of promises on amnesty programme, gave President Goodluck Jonathan a four-day ultimatum to implement the amnesty agreement.

http://tribune.com.ng/index.php/front-page-news/32561-ex-militants-shut-down-niger-bridge

Your point is not lost on me, but Nigeria is no way near a police state, neither now nor any time soon. Not all criticism of the government is out of bitterness but it becomes mighty suspicious when the person doing the criticism does not at all see anything wrong with his own political party when the compliment is returned.

Pastor AIO:
Does this include the saintly works of the non christian?

Pastor AIO:
. . .I mean, for example, an australian aborigine shaman who is full of saintly deeds.  people such as that.

I would have to say that the "saintly" works of the non christian will not save him, neither are they signs of his salvation.

---

Zikkyy:
Correct. Work (without faith) will not save you, and you cannot be saved if your faith does not produce works

^I would have agreed with this statement except for the portions in bold. Seems like splitting hairs, I know, but it leaves enough wiggle room for one to argue that works do save. Remember that you have not really given a satisfactory answer to the issue of the thief on the cross because his faith did not produce any visible work that we could see unless we agree with Jesus that the "work of God is to believe on the One he has sent". By this we can see that Faith = Belief in Jesus = The work of God. [John 6:29].
The way I understand the relationship between faith and works is as follows:
1. Only by faith are we saved (Eph 2:8-9).
2. If our faith is real. . .then it will produce good works
3. Only the works of real or genuine faith can be regarded as good works.
3. Only God knows what constitutes real faith. . .and thus what is good works.

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
[1Co 3:13-15]

4. Some works that appear to be good works to us are not. . .because the faith is false.

It may be I am too rigid in my understanding of faith.

Zikkyy:
This does not address my concern. but no wahala, it's accepted. Thanks for your time.

Thanks for your patience too. Do the following verses speak more directly to your concern?

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
[2Ti 1:9]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
[Titus 3:5]

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
[Rom 8:29-30]

These verses do suggest predestination by God in eternity past; how God works it out in time is beyond me. . .

Gbawe:
My brother, when ACN fans had their fundamental human rights breached ,via how they were stopped from going to Abuja, the usual blind apologists of GEJ and the FG justified that action by saying those folks were "thugs" who had no business in Abuja. Well, I wonder what they have to say now.

^
. . ."thugs" who had no business in Abuja is what I think they will say.

You sound like a man who is bitter. What's going on?

^Non-christian is a broad term. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses etc were non-Christians.

Do you mean them?

Unubi:
. . .ACN WAS VOTED IN ALL THE VOTING CENTRES. PDP is however the winner. People are helpless in this state.

So you were physically present in all the polling centers in Kogi to know how people voted? Nonsense. . .people come to NL to lie alot.

Amidst the various claims by the ACN, a former governorship aspirant on the platform of the party, Mr George Olusola Olumoroti said that PDP won and that ACN lost to the rigid authoritarian in the party’s national leadership, noting that at the apex of the leadership, there is a lack of internal democracy.

According to him, “the coming of Audu into ACN in July was welcomed with mixed feelings. The apprehension was that Audu was never a democrat so what is he doing in ACN. As soon as he joined the ACN every party member realised that he was in the party to pursue his selfish aim of getting to the Lugard House having realised that ACN had a better structure than the All Nigerian Peoples Party (ANPP), which he nurtured and used in previous elections. An anti-Audu sentiment started to brew across the party ahead of the primary, and it was obvious that the stage was set for a woeful outing for Audu.”

He disclosed that four days to the primary all the governorship aspirants were invited to Ekiti House in Abuja by the party national leadership of for a meeting, which was chaired by Ekiti Governor Kayode Fayemi. The instruction was handed down that Audu had been nominated as the flag bearer.

“The aspirants vehemently objected to the imposition and insisted on the party conducting a proper primary while promising support to whoever emerged. After three days of unsuccessful lobbying, cajoling, and threat, Asiwaju Bola Tinubu came down to the fourth meeting on September 20, to hand down “the take it or leave it” instruction. He said that he had made up his mind on the candidature of Audu, and that ACN will not hold any primary. We expressed our reservation on the imposition highlighting various reasons Audu will be rejected at the polls. But we were talking to the deaf.

“The meeting closed but none of us attended the ratification of Audu’s candidature at the ACN secretariat in Lokoja on September 21. From the benefit of hindsight, after the PDP primary saga, Governor Ibrahim Idris, initiated the reconciliation process that allowed Abdulrazaq Kutepa’s camp to produce the deputy and explored the Presidency to work on Jibrin Isah Echocho. In contrast, Audu refused to come down from his Olympian heights, and instead of exploring ways to unite the party and seek reconciliation, he aggravated it by alienating the core ACN members by projecting his co-travelers who decamped from ANPP over and above the core ACN members. His deputy, Henry Ojuola, the Director General of his campaign organisation and other positions were selected from ANPP defectors, while the core ACN were marginalised.

“Several attempts were made to communicate the doom that was awaiting ACN at the December 3 polls if remedial actions were not taken and on time too. But the pride of Audu and the larger than life mentality of Tinubu did not let them hearken to the words of wisdom. They believed that they knew more than any other person. Now the election is over and the refusal of Audu to accord respect to other people and realise that politics has gone beyond master-servant arrangement, and Tinubu’s attitude that his wish must be done at all time in ACN has cost us this election in Kogi.

“I hope Tinubu will leave Kogi ACN alone and let us drive our party and chose our candidates in future. We have worked assiduously by investing our time and hard earned money since January 2009 without input from Tinubu or the national secretariat and Audu. I am almost certain that Audu will abandon the party now having failed to achieve his selfish agenda, so that we can rebuild the party again.”

A public analyst, Mr. Olusegun Iselaye, described Melaye’s claims as mere fallacy. He added that the “neither Tinubu’s nor Audu’s style catches anyone’s fancy. Their opinions are always too fixated. ACN is gaining grounds today because it is still growing and people have not realised that yet. I am afraid if ACN leaders continue with this kind of “take it or leave it” attitude, the party will never do well in other states outside the South West geopolitical region. Posterity will tell. Kogi people are not foolish; people are becoming more enlightened daily.”

http://ngrguardiannews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=69953:why-acn-lost-kogi-governorship-polls-to-pdp&catid=73:policy-a-politics&Itemid=607

It's only on NL that people who are not on ground in Kogi state claim to know better than those who really are from Kogi.

Zikkyy:
My main concern here is not actually the work bit but on your claim that people don't play any role in their salvation.
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.
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I can agree that God knew those who will have been saved at the last, but were those saved handpicked by God himself? based on some random sampling?

^

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 13:20-21

---

Pastor AIO:
So conclusion: Works do not save, but works are a sign of salvation.

^Yes.

Zikkyy:
Well. . em. . . you forgot to add Philippians 2:14

14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

As you can see they can decide to abandon the work.

^First, God's purpose or work cannot be thwarted. If they decide to abandon the work (which are acts of obedience). . .

And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.
Luk 19:40

Second, if they abandon the work, then it probably an indication that they were not saved to begin with. (By their fruits you shall know them). That one is part of the crowd that calls itself Christian does not mean they are. Haven't you ever considered this scriptures:

And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Mat 28:17

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1Jn 2:19

Zikkyy:
But seriously, i wasn't thinking Philippians when i made the initial post. I was just responding to what i read you say. Your post sometimes appears to conflict with the message you're sending.

^I fail to see the conflict.
God plants good seed. The good seed brings forth good fruits. . .because its genetic imperative compels it to produce good fruit. The arbiter of what constitutes good fruit/works is God himself, not man. In the parables lie the key to understanding the Kingdom as Jesus Christ said. Look again at the parable of the wheat and tares.
Most of us thinking of tares suppose that these plants are like the weeds growing on our grandfathers' farms - totally dissimilar in appearance. This is not so. The tares resemble the wheat and on occasion can be difficult to distinguish from wheat, hence the instruction:

But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mat 13:29-30

Since the tares and the wheat grow together and look alike, we men are often seduced into thinking tares are wheat; not surprising given that:

. . .for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart. 1 Sa 16:7

ISBE: Tares
târz (ζιζάνια, zizánia (Mat_13:25 ff), margin “darnel”): Zizania is equivalent to Arabic zuwān, the name given to several varieties of darnel of which Lolium temulentum, the “bearded darnel,” is the one most resembling wheat, and has been supposed to be degenerated wheat. On the near approach of harvest it is carefully weeded out from among the wheat by the women and children.

Zikkyy:
Yes he did, he made a request that Jesus should remember him when he (Jesus) get to his kingdom or was it the Holy Spirit talking?

^No man can come to Jesus except the Father draws him. The thief's request was an acknowledgement of Jesus as Lord, a working out of his faith in Jesus. . .do you realize both thieves asked Jesus to save them?! Why was only one saved? Look again at the passage.

Zikkyy:
How do you expect a man nailed to the cross to do any additional work.

^And doesn't this precisely show that no additional work is needed beyond Jesus Christ's blood for the salvation of souls? If the thief did no work and yet was saved. . .what does that tell us? God is able to save to the uttermost those who put their trust in him.

Zikkyy:
My understanding of your posts is that some people were pre-destined to go to heaven and others to hell. So i wonder why the apostles needed to preach the good news, or was that process a formality as well?

We are commanded to preach the gospel (It is one of the works ordained for us by God). . .and it is God who does the saving. If you believe that God knows all; why balk at the fact that from the beginning, God knew those who will have been saved at the last, and knowing this made provision for them to be saved.

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Joh 6:64

Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
Act 15:18

And to show that our works count for nothing. . .here is one the hard sayings of Jesus.

So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:10