₦airaland Forum

abiodunalasa:
Wow..
I dont even know the MI-35 could fire ATGMs. I tot that Helo is all about spreading the big guns.

Thanks egbon.

But you never explain the phrase "typical Nigerian" as u use it above.

I dont see NAF carrying any of them though. Kind of a costly way to kill a BH pick up truck.

abiodunalasa:
Going to War college in Us or Sandhurst in UK... Its just to get the Certificate.

The world is changing sir. You can get thousands of researches from experience Military Veterans all on the internet.
In fact, you can have more knowledge than some of the men in Uniform.

I give you an example, a Coursing in the Army doesn't even know what an M4 looks like.
Well, maybe because NA dont use M4. But a "Uniformless" nigger like me, through readings and researches from platforms like this... Mehn you gonna try before you see a rifle that I cant name.

Now, if uniformless niggers like us come here to pontify about Technical military issues and we are in the wrong... It is your duty as the uniform big boys to come in and shed convincing lights... Except you are not sure of yourselves.

For me, most time I read alot of what you guys post here and learn a lot... And i respect ya all especially... Tdayof, Henry240, Andrewza, patches689, Odunayaw etc etc

So when I argue with this men, I just want learn from their perspective, and tap from their wealth of knowledge.

So chief Frumentum, drop ya shoulder pads. And let us "uniformless" mofos learn from you.

BS. I don't care what you learned online practical knowledge trumps all. M4, R4, AK47 they all do the same thing. Send a piece of metal real fast through a tube. But until you have made a 1 day ration pack last 3 days your opinion means less to me. Sure you may have under standing of politics and George politics but when it comes to warfare books leave a lot out. I mean people here know the 50cal as a 2000m range, I know you will struggle to hit a barn at that range.

BlackBaron:
You're merely boiling it down to costs. I'm asking of the possibility of also developing similar systems for ourselves. Unguided shells are sometimes inaccurate depending on factors. If needing close support with risks of troops nearby. What's the solution?


Fine mentality you got there Sir. Let's just level everything on a bf because we saw ten BH. What has the left also got to do with the discussions here.

What type of guidance do you want. A laser guided shell is some thing. Though a Excalibur style GPS guided shell is a different beast and needs a complicated FCS, modified guns and the new shells and for limited gain.

abiodunalasa:
"... Fire more shells to effect accuracy... "

Thats what they call spray and pray
Throwing 20 stones at a bird and hoping one hits it on the head.
typical third world bull shits.

Egbon stop defending our defect.

It not 3rd world bullshit it a method used by most countries. Guided shells even in rich countries are used sparingly. Only high value targets or targets in built up area would get a guided shell. A artillery barrage is normal 6 to 8 guns destroying area withat least 3 rounds from each gun. Remember you normally won't fire a barrage on one or two people but large groups.

LTGEN:
They already.have guided Arty Shells.

Some how I doubt that.

BlackBaron:
With better quality 'eyes in the sky', say with the airforce grounded, how easy is it to fix guidance kits on pre existing 155mm artillery shells for precise hits on enemy targets. Is it a project with easily available off the shelf parts? Or do you think guided arty shells are a luxury?

Guided shells are probably to much but improved accuracy of the guns is while with in the scope.


You don't need your shells to have a accuracy to be in point meters but a spread of say 25m at 45km is more than needed. A 3 round shot now means target is dead.


One American Foward controller know put it like this.

1 round to dig them out
2nd round kills
3rd makes sure.


Combined with a 6 to 8 gun barrage and no BH base is save.

Go to sleep and wake up next morning new president. We where joking the whole time who we where going to salute 21

Frumentum:
Get extra batteries and memory cards, you're the thread's official photographer this year.

I got a few from training yesterday but I am working to so I will miss a few of the displays. All so 3sai has the worst cell signal of any base I have been to.

Darn I arrived yesterday. Longest drive to Kimberly ever.

Armed forces day in Kimberly is starting. Any one going to be tgere

kikuyu1:
Slightly off-topic,but not by much. Saffas,what's the exact situation with Zuma? He's being asked to leave by the ANC but is staying put-WTF!? What's Ramaphosa's attitude to defence and security? Is he aware of the need to increase spending especially given SA's wider continental role? Does he acknowledge the existence of outside forces wishing to balkanise SA via local and/or regional proxies and thus the need for an effective military?
Patches869,mikecza,saengine,frumentius what can you tell us?

They probably going for a vote of no confidence soon and empeach him.

SupremeCourt:
The Algerian1 guy here proved you very wrong with his T-90 official facts, but you still repeat your nonsense yarn like a robot. Read up T-90MS details on Janes defence, and tell us why you never advise South Africa to buy T-72 for your own country's defence.

Have you bothered to look in to the history of the T90. It is a T72 with features from a T80. The Shtora is not exclusive to the T90 it used on T80 and the T84 plus the BMP3 and not all countries use the Shtora.


So you all jumping on the T90 because of the Shtora which is silly. Remove the Shtora and it is a upgraded T72.

Covert1:
Designation is not the problem I think. It is clear Syrian T-90s performed excellently well and Armies watching would of course be interested. That's the point.

And buying the T90 still gets you the second best T72. Russian marketing at its best. People still think the T90 is a new tank. When it is the off spring of the T72 and T80

SupremeCourt:
All T-72 models including your best T-72B3 model keep heavy loads of high explosive ammunition in same storage area with operating soldiers, so it cooks their flesh to ashes once a T-72 is hit in that space.

T-72 has no anti-missile self-defence, no passive mixed armour, no 8km range camera, no 5 km range gun sight like T-90.

25 new T-90 for Nigeria is only 10% of this new $1 billion war fund, so military planners still have 90% to use for many things.

Will you allow your country South Africa to spend $2 billion on special war fund 2014, then $1 billion more special war fund 2017, add the $3 billion normal budget for weapons procurement 2014-2018, then your ANC government buys 50 second hand T-72 then replaces them with another 50 second hand T-72 upgraded by South African DENEL from a huge $6 billion wartime arms fund, will you come here and praise South African government for buying T-72 same way you recommend more T-72 for Nigeria 2018?

Open Oxford dictionary and look up the meaning of hypocrite.

Its on record, Nigeria began to win back the 70 towns we captured by Boko Haram only when T-72 arrived, so night fighter and ERA armour tanks saved us from defeat, good coaches dont change a winning team.

Why did Algerian army generals fighting terrorists with 300 T-72 including South African upgraded T-72 suddenly order 500 T-90 in 2006? Why did Syrian army generals that have T-72 fighting terrorists ask Russia to send T-90 tanks in 2015? Why did Iraqi army generals that have like 100 T-72 tanks order 300 T-90 tanks in 2017?

You people believe all those army generals that have decades of war experience with terrorists are fools? I want you to lie to yourself in attempt to prove me wrong. Now start telling lies like it will make you rich overnight, on your marks, set, go!

As I said the T90 is the second best T72. The T90 is just a T72 it was littraly called the the T72BU before the name was changed to make it look more modern.


Actually a number of T72 have thermal cameras it not a T90 only thing.



The anti missile system of the T90 does not stop RPGs that the ERA. And the newier T72s have the same protection.



Those countries bought T90 because they wanted a new tank problem is the T90 production has stopped with a effort to switch over to the T14



The ammo issue of the the T72 is still there for the T90. It due the carasol system required by the use of a Auto Loader. The T90 ERA just stopped all the hits penatrating the same Era used on modern T72s

homerac7:
Oga, those new tanks are not made and kept in showrooms waiting for buyers. You place an order, it goes through long bureaucracy that takes many months to years, then approval, then start of production, then you get supplied in piecemeal over stretched period of time. God help you the seller country doesn't have national emergency by then or you don't have diplomatic fallout.

Meanwhile, tank in storage takes far lesser time to get approval and delivered since it was ready build, mostly functioning and already planned/considered for shedding off.

T90 = remodelled T72

....whereas , T72 is the workhorse of any Russian built tank using army anywhere in the world. It is what C130 is to most air force mobility command, to Russian equipped army armour battalion.

T72 & T55 make up larger fraction of Russian Army tank inventory. Those are their real work horses. In fact, the latest upgrade of T72 matches T90 toe to toe in every performance, and edges it on proven history.

All said, what you probably should be thinking is getting large number of well preserved T72 and upgrading good numbers to latest configuration. That's far more effective and efficient than waiting for fancy T90, Armata or even Leopard 2 (which you might never get due to past experiences with NATO). There's something calls "high-low" mix in equipment planning. Good number of regular armoured T72s + upgraded T72 + maybe down initial payment for "tropicalized" Armata you/we hope to introduce in another 10-15yrs, when some of the T72s, Vickers and Scorpions would have been finally scrapped. By the way, remember to make provision for light tank replacement for the Scorpions too.

For the @SupremeCourt guy yapping everything he knows by half, how can you make a clear intentionally mischievous comparison of what Algeria spend in just ONE year with what Nigeria spent in over TEN years? Them no teach you basic data analysis for school? Yes, I agree that Nigeria has mostly punched below her weight, but you spoke to the other gentleman so rudely and failed to answer his very simple question. It shows who's smarter between you two, of course. Please learn to be courteous to people EVERYWHERE and make your point/argument as polite and clear as possible. We can't all agree on all issues, moreover the person you are debating with is a USER of the materiel in discussion, not even Russian Army chief of armoured corps will have that arguement with him , he can only LISTEN and LEARN when the hands-on end user is talking about the equipment.

Peace to all people of peace

that is the truth right there.

Xbee007:
We want new tanks ASAP. Lol, 5years to make some tanks. Even fighter jets don't take that long to make. So what are you saying?

You think Nigeria is going to jump the line? Sure tanks are built at steady speed but they all bought all ready, this all so excludes negotiations. So yeah if you want a brand new tank it takes time.


Nigeria's T72 are not bad, not for what you need and you could establish a factory In Nigeria to refurbish and upgrade them. Faster and creates jobs.

SupremeCourt:
I trust you to be 100% with any backward thinking Nigerian that wants obsolete weapons for Nigeria so that South Africa will look better. You will pray hard for Nigeria to buy 100 more second hand used and dumped T-72 from Europe while you lobby your own government to buy Leopard tanks for SANDF. It's in your nature to wish us backwardness so you can sleep and snore aloud every night without fear of a black power rising with T-90 tanks that will make Nigeria the most powerful army down the Sahara region.

The T90 is just the second most advanced T72 and cost a lot. So 100 T72 is far more a threat than 25 T90s. And from what I Remer the Leo had really issues operating in the bush.

There's all so far less T90s up for sale and production was stopped.

Xbee007:
CaptainStephen
If you are given a choice between a brand new top-of-the-line T-72 tanks in pristine condition, with only factory mileage and a second hand T-72 that has probably been used for years, would you still go for the later? Look, we just want the best, safest and most reliable equipment for our soldiers in the Northeast.
And my point is that they should buy enough of those tanks so we don't overuse the few. It will be a force multiplier.

Question is. Do you want a tank now or a really good tank 5 years from now

SupremeCourt:
My soldiers friends are the ones silently calling for Abuja to buy them T-90 but cannot talk loud in front of superior authorities. They are asking me to move a social media campaign for this $ 1 billion new war funds so we dont see T-72 replacing T-72 in a stupiid decision of tokunbo replacing tokunbo. Naija boys fear a Syria or Libya level of hi-tech insurgency, they say terrorists heat RPG will destroy Nigerian T-72 tanks and roast all the four troops inside. They said T-90 survived all heat RPG and anti-tank missiles in Syria, which Iraqi government saw and ordered 300 T-90 in 2015. If Nigeria plays the fool now, Boko Haram may be planning solution to our T-72 advantage and neutralize it 2018-2019, so we must stay ahead of the enemy with wide gap.

The t90 is not the most advanced t72 varriet any more. The most advanced version is the T72B3

I the T90 is just a T72 in fact it was first called the T72 but but the name changed to make it seem more modern.


All so the T90 defence is less for RPG and more for ATGMs and tanks. It fitted with a laser warning receiver that when triggered turn the turret to the threat, activates a IR jammer that through of older Gen ATGMs (that is actually being removed from the upgraded T90s) and fires smoke. The aim is warn the crew, face the srtrongest armor to the threat, blind the threat and the gun is aimed there to so you can kill the threat. For RPG the T72 all use ERA.



One more thing T72 don't have a loader the crew is commander, gunner and driver.

http://static.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/19291355_820_uu.jpg



That's Finland's BMP 2 with there thermal Cammo. Img in that hiding in a Forrest 2km away from you. You won't see it but it will see you.

lionel4power:
it carries fancy gears to avoid detection by in the IR spectrum.

what about when it has been detected using the regular eyeballs? can it withstand a hit?

The CV serries is a IFV but they pretty beffy. They can take a RPG7 hit.


But you have to Remember where this is being used. Heavily forested area where these are able to hide in the woods. With out thermals they would be hard to find more so from the air. It gives a big edge in long-range fighting where thermals are used a lot by other vehicles.


Thing is if you see this thing with your eyes they either messed up or they shooting at you and you are dead.



Finland all so uses thermal camouflage for there vehicles. Same terrain lots of Forrest to hide in.

lionel4power:
okay something like the American paramedics but for the army?

Yes but SAMs is there own branch separate from the army.

lionel4power:
do they go into combat like regular infantry?

Some of them do. There are ops medics who are trained to infantry standard.


Then there is 7 medical battlion where all the medics are at least Parabat level with a number being sepeciol forces operators. Though all uniformed personnel get training in basic tactics and musketry. In the DRC for example you will find all types of medical personnel from ops medics who go on patrols all the way to pyscolgist.

Frumentum:
Cheetahs going to Florida



http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50179:cheetahs-going-to-florida&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107

Cheats and mirage F1s. Drake is the early 1990s SAAF. They should be a good opposition force the Americans

http://itweb.co.za/mobilesite/defenceweb/news/item_id-40703/



Another link, this is more for new gear. Though note the requirements of backwards compatibility with legacy equipment.

Since we on radios.


http://itweb.co.za/mobilesite/defenceweb/home/item_id-788/



It out dated a bit but still holds merit. Point to note is frequency used.

Frumentum:
Interoperability has been a problem from day 1 of the FIB. For example, a foot patrol out in the jungle is lucky if they maintain 100% radio contact with their COB. And the terrain means if the comms at the COB are knocked out, Sector HQ is blind.
It's the problem with UN ops, where everyone brings their different equipment and TTPs.

We should have a SADC version of NATO standard. I mean at least for things like radios and logistics. I mean Namibia and south africa both make radios and with some support could get SADC to talk better with each other.

tdayof:
Yes not all radios can talk to each other. Was expecting an interoperability in DRC since they'll need air support from you guys.


So let say they need air support with tangos on friendlies uniforms too, how do Rooivalk clarify who the main target is?

Depends on the distance. One method is marking strips. You can see them on helmets on some pics. Air see the helmet and there you go. Or you use colored smoke. Pop a smoke where you are, launch one where the enemy is, use land marks aka ever thing north of the road is hostile.


But SA FAC guys are really good, when they call in strikes the bird knows where it is striking to pin point accuracy.




Not even a standard SA Infantry squad can talk them. As I said on the ship we have a specific radios to talk to air. Though I think the new radios can talk to ground and air.



I must try to dig it up but the inside of a company commanders ratel has some thing like 8 radios.



Talking to air is done by a FAC if Tanzania needs air they use a FAC.





If you ever play Aram or other such in depth games you see why FAC are needed. And in Arma a hand held can talk to helicopters. But they don't, we have either high command or a dedicated FAC handle ever thing.

Frumentum:
My last word on this:
Even though it was at a high cost, COB Semuliki was NOT overrun. The Tanzos repelled the attack, killing over 70 ADF scum.

I don't doubt they good fighters. But they where caught with the pants down. I suspect a lot of losses came in the opening attack when they where relaxed.

Frumentum:
This!
Evening stand-to, by the way. Seeing what time the attack commenced, if they'd done the stand-to, they would not have been caught out as they were.
I disagree on the base. It could've been better prepared for defence. I'll try and find pics of the base 2 years ago when the Moroccans were there, and successfully defended it from an ADF attack from the jungle and by boats from the river. But the ADF then was poorly amed and trained.
As one FARDC officer said after the October attacks:


Yes, hourly radio check in should be the standard, especially for isolated small outposts in hot zones.
Apart from the Tanzanian lapses - which will be addressed; FARDC will simply ignore its problem areas. They've never bothered to investigate where ADF gets new FARDC uniforms, and I'll wager there won't be a convincing explanation why their base 15km away never went to investigate the radio silence from COB Semuliki.

Of course it could of been prepared better. But I don't think that why the attack was so deadly. More I think the poor base is a symptom of the true issue. The Tanzania force where not taking defense seriously. I suspect they put to much in the fact they UN and the rebels would not attack them.

tdayof:
Yeah. I agree.



But on the issue of the base isn't a big deal, I feel there should always be a normal standard to be maintained by the military even at the lowest unit.

Communication is very important. They knew their weak point, Destroyed their communication tower first and then attack them massively.

About the money, If you need to win the war, why not spend the cash on necccesary equipments than wasting human lives.


Frumentum said something about communicating with the Rooivalk helicopters in which I have a question to ask, isn't there suppose to be a free channel where the Rooivalk can communicate directly with the Rooivalk pilots if it wasn't danger close?

That's why they have check In's. They now coms is a weakness.


What cash. DRC is poor and don't care about a few solders and Tanzania is not flush with cash either.



Not all radios can talk to each other. Tanzania are probably using completely difrence radios. Not to mention I doubt they even know the frequency that are needed to talk to them are. I mean I don't I just turn to the needed channel on the specific radio. I mean we sail with multiple different handheld radios for this reason. One to talk to each other, one to talk to the ship and one to talk to air craft.

tdayof:
A radio system itself shoukd give you a medium ranger of 3-8km in a jungle/ deep forest.

Include an external antenna designed for such. You'll have a 15km range.

A dp4800/01 will give you a 5-8km in a jungle. After extending the range with an external antenna designed to work under such condition you can have up to 15km.

Using a low Tx/Rx antenna then such is a billion times possible. A research was conducted using radio wave propagation through forests with tree canopy reflection effect by a guy I know shows the dp series itself has a talking range of 23km using an external antenna in a jungle/ forest. Of course the antenna was specially designed.

Now the issue is what jungle was the test done in. Was it the flowing hills and thick jungle of DRC.

2 how much does it cost. You think the DRC has money for nice radios.



You comparing Apples to oranges here. I mean SANDF have Secure SATCOMs for emergency use. But you can't expect the DRC to have that or a company of Tanzania infantry. They probably had long range radio tower and a few short range radios.


Any case communication was only one reason the attack was so deadly.

I would focus more on the fact they never did the morning Stand to has the biggest issue. That shows a lack of care for security.

The base it self is not that big a deal has people think. It surrounded by earth embankment's the watch towers have sand bags in them and if they actually caired about security it would of been sufficient. ADF does not have tanks.


Possible increase the number of radio check inn's to be once a hour. I mean it stand to do hourly rounds in any case.