₦airaland Forum

raumdeuter:
If they spent BHA type money in the transfer market then they should be content with BHA type results

You cannot spend 10times what Brighton did and be okay with Brightons result

DeZerbi joined Brighton after TenHag

What does salvageable looks like? Winning the CL? Semi finals, Winning the league top 2-3? Top 4 or top 10? when you now compare to other coaches with similar budget. Now think that a coach who has spent 2yrs ends up with these "salvaged result" Is it tenable to the board who have splashed so much on him and will that give confidence to give him another 200-300M for next season

DeZerbi did not finish 3rd with a cup. Nobody expected United to finish that high in the league whether they admit it or not so in a sense ETH overachieved. To me, that should be the reason he should be given more time. That assurance could allow him to be discipline about the style he wants to play. It is clear he is overwhelmed and thus making mistakes. I don't even think his players are downtooling. They too are confused.

Salvageable for United will be making top 4 and going far (SFs in the FA Cup atleast) and probably a QF in the UCL.

raumdeuter:
January 2003 till date(20yrs) Madrid 16coaches Barcelona 13 coaches

How much different are the 2

Pep and Enrique left of their own volition. In both cases, the club wanted to renew because they wanted to appear as stable. Real Madrid hoped to have that with Zidane because they have realized their errors.

I don't think what I am suggesting is so against the grain. Every manager desires such an environment. Bayern are pampering Tuchel because they realize they did not handle other managers well and you guys now have the same reputation. Would you not have fired Joachim Löw? But see how much time Germany gave him. Do you think Xabi Alonso would want to coach Bayern today seeing how your board treated Naggelsman?

raumdeuter:
Madrid main focus has always been on Mbappe and not Haaland.
Edit: Do you know how many coaches were in Madrid between 1997 and 2003 the years you referenced? Capello Juup, Hiddink Toshack Camacho DelBosque. So 6 coaches in those 6years

Is the Real Madrid Job of today the most coveted job in world football? Bear in mind that Conté, Klopp and even Hansi Flick have sneezed at Real Madrid in recent times. Would they have done so in the past?

I am not against bad managers getting fired. I am all for giving managers who have shown some degree of measurable success some leeway when they inevitably experience some bad times.

raumdeuter:
At some point his continued stay becomes untenable
What are the things you've seen as positives that you can hold onto with TenHag currently

With Pep and Kloop fans saw the style of play even when results are lacking
With what you are seeing currently cam you approve a new 300m budget for transfers

Would United fans have taken BHA style football and 7th or 8th place compared to finishing 3rd, a respectable 2nd best in the FA Cup and winning the Carabao cup? I would think this could have earned him 1 bad season.

I also think the season is still salvageable.

Trevor012:
The only thing consistent about man city winning is Pep. If Pep wasn't at city they would have changed like 2 managers over the last 7 years and you won't be talking about stability. When you have one of he greatest coach of all time why won't you be stable with him winning trophies left, right and center just like we did with Ferguson. The usual life span of a coach at any club is 3 years max. Pep has spent more years than he did at Barca and Bayern combined at City.

Pep did not keep the league in awe in his first season. He finished 3rd and trophyless. The almighty almost omniscient Pep achieved that even with investments in some areas - but City stood by him.

Liverpool had an uncannily bad season the previous one. They are not in the UCL due to this, and Klopp looked out of his depth but Liverpool stood by him. Younger mangers with ambition who can take the reins from Pep and Klopp - the Xavi's, Xabi Alonso's - People of that ilk that are showing tactical ingenuity will rather take projects like Liverpool and City than come to United for millions. See what ATM did with Diego Simeone? That is what I am talking about.

I did not say to reward all managers and never fire failing managers. But you cannot create a reputation or an impression where your top job is cut-throat and managers will be flung out at the slightest turn of fortune. If ETH completely loses the dressing room, speaks ill of his employers or disrespects the fans or your history, then by all means he should be fired. If not, just rally behind him.

patrickmuf:
If Mourinho was the one that had a fallout with Ronaldo and Sancho, we wouldn't hear the end of it.

Have you heard the end of it concerning Ten Hag?

Trevor012:
Barcelona have changed similar amount of managers over that same 20 seasons as Madrid. Why do Madrid get a reputation for sacking managers but Barca don't.

Barca is suffering from the same reputational damage. They had to go beg Xavi to coach the first team. Xavi was coaching in Saudi Arabia and that is who Barca went to beg.

Notice, I did not say you will not win atimes firing and hiring managers. That will be untrue. I said consistent winners like City have stability and win more. Then I compared Chelsea vs City to buttress my point. Know the difference.

I said that is not the reputation you want to have. The best coaches will want to go to City after Pep because they saw how Pep was treated. Granted, he earned it but that is why I said "best coaches".

patrickmuf:
If we wanted someone that will get us results whilst playing horrible football then we could as well have kept Mourinho.

Mourinho the malignant cancer? Mourinho was one month away from dragging SAF before he was sacked. It seems you have forgotten how shameless he was.

patrickmuf:
The difference is that at United he is given money to spend, a lot of money.

If Brighton gives De Zerbi £400m over 3 windows, they'd demand for more. In our case, we are not really after trophies right now, a top four finish whilst improving the playing personnel and performances on the pitch is all we are after.

He could still get it. No matter how bad your form is, you are only out of the Carabao cup like City and now Arsenal. The league still has over 26 games to go for most clubs. Time still dey.

spillo1:
So that's how those clubs reputation have been ruined?

Who born City to get Haaland over Real Madrid? Have you looked at Chelsea recently? They are celebrating Carabao wins against minnows nowadays because they barely win anywhere else.

Edit: Can Mbappé disrespect the Real Madrid of 1997-2003?

patrickmuf:
We saw what Pep was building, it was recognizable from the very start, the same with Klopp...Can you say the same about ETH? Watch that Ajax team and Man Utd under ETH, do you see any similarities?

Why is it looking impossible for him to implement his ideas here even after supervising 3 transfer windows and spending over £400m?

He is making mistakes. No doubt. But even this current City that won a treble play almost nothing like Pep's Barca of 2008/09. The reason? The players are different.

Eric is overwhelmed because he is caught in-between winning anything anyway or taking his time to build the squad in a more organic way that could win or at least compete for a while. Would you have kept him if United played like BHA but finished at the same spot rather than third? Be honest.

spillo1:
How has sacking underperforming coaches damaged Madrid and Chelsea reputation.

RM have won their league 5 out of the last 20 seasons. City, if I am not mistaken, just overtook Chelsea's achievements of the last 20 years in terms of the total. I know CFC have won the UCL twice vs City's once.

You don't want to have the reputation of a football club that sacks its managers willy nilly. The stats back me in concluding that, a majority of those who are categorized as top performers in their RnRs will testify that, their achievements were corollary to gaining cognate experience on-their-job. That means learning from failure or is it failing forward they call it - will fall under that group - because there will always be downtime. That is how the bell curve goes.

My point is, don't sack Ten Hag during his bad patch. Other good managers will take note to avoid you because they know that a 2016/17 for Pep, 2022/23 for Klopp or his final season with Dortmund and so on can and will happen to any and every manager. It is part of continuous improvement. City gave Pep that chance and see how he is rewarding the club. Word is, he is going to extend his contract to stay beyond 10 years with the club. But I digress.

Suffer with Ten Hag and show him that he earned your trust because of last season. There is a good manager in there. We saw it with Ajax FC and with United just this past season. Otherwise, you will hire another manager of a lower quality unwittingly and repeat the vicious cycle.

TrebleChamp:
I said if he was backed massively to sign his players then by the useless Glazers (like they have backed Ten Hag over two season), United would have added at least 2 more EPL titles to our cabinet. Emphasis on backed to get his own players like they have done for Ten Hag. Yes Mourinho is a very controversial Manager, but he is a borne winner if giving the right tools to work with.

There is nothing about Mourinho of the last 10 years that would convince anyone he would have won the EPL. Nothing.

I want my takes on the hot side please.

andrewbaba44:
gundo have been out most creative midfielder this season egbon ,he isn’t being isolated ,xavi and pep different

My point is just that these guys aren’t gundogan level ,it doesn’t make them bad players egbon

And doku have been balling and will only keeps getting better

You're misunderstanding me. I am saying the way Gundogan played under Pep is not the way Kovacic is being asked to play. Same way the way he is playing under Xavi is not the way Kovacic is being played now under Pep. So you have no basis of comparison. You don't have enough data to say 1's level is higher than the others except you are bringing what they have won and in Gundo's case he won most of what he won under Pep.

The conclusion: Give him time.

andrewbaba44:
My point remains Nunez and kovacic aren’t on gundogan levels ,it doesn’t make them bad players though

I can give nunes time but not kovacic ,man can’t be clutch like gundogan till he retires

You are isolating Gundogan that played for City but judging Kovacic of Chelsea. You have to watch him under Pep to come to that conclusion. Kovacic has played for Inter Milan, Real Madrid and City. That is as good a resumé as Gundogan can present. Sure, Gundo has won more but most of his wins were under Pep.

Give Kovacic time. He started well but derailed after his short injury. Players need time to reset. Pep specifically wanted more dribblers this season. He has even said it in his interviews. He is cooking something.

They mocked him for sacking Joe Hart and doubling down on telling Stones to keep playing out the back even though he had made a mistake and conceded a goal against Everton in 2016. Now every coach wants a ball-playing keeper and they all want to pass out the back.

I don't think Pep expects Kova and Nunes to be scorers. Paqueta is not a scorer too. He is getting dribblers with close control to play in the midfield. I think he wants to create distortions that are capable of carving out gaps against low blocks rather than using pacey wingers. Doku was passing the ball back to the midfield when he was on the right today like Walker. That seems to me that Pep is the one asking for it. It seems crazy but isn't he crazily good?

oliverano:


He forgot Pep Lmao !!!

It is what they always do.

andrewbaba44:
City do loose games with kdb ,but we can see that city are missing him and gundogan

Wetin consign gundogan and scoring goals to determine his performance? You know better than this my G,you know I will always support city ,but why not accept the truth ?

Tell me Matheus nunes and kovacic are half the player gundogan was

Gundogan have been so good for Barca despite playing without FDJ and pedri

And mind you gundogan have assists more than all your midfielders,just pointing this out even though it’s not necessary

I quoted you because you are buying the hype and subscribing to hot takes from people who don't know that it is possible to be patient before jumping to a conclusion. One must not have an opinion if they don't make one for a living - especially when they will end up walking it back.

That said, KDB, Gundogan and Mahrez where in City when City were bottom half of the table after 6 games in 2020/21. They were there last season when Arsenal led by 8 points. It seems people forget that City traditionally start slowly and ramp up at the turn of the new year. To zero it down to the absence of 1 or 2 individuals is uncooked and simplistic.

If you want to decide what Nunes and Kova can do, you must give them the same time City gave Gundo so you can understand what is expected of them before you come to that finding. You don't have enough sample points to come to that. For e.g Kova and Nunes have not been asked to play the role Gundo was playing. Same way Gundo is not playing the same role he played for City in Barca.

Give. Players. Time.

andrewbaba44:
You are right

They really miss kdb and Gundogan replacement no be am

Doku isn’t bad but he isn’t on mahrez level

So when KDB played City did not lose or draw any games or what? How many goals does Gundo have for Barca this season?

Ballzproblemm:
man City decline ain't talked enough,I'm sorry this team ain't winning shit for some time.

downgrade everywhere letting go of:

mahrez

gundogan



replacing them with:


kovacic


doku.


no answer to kdb heir.

LOL

zeusis:
Guardiola likes technical security and control and grealish gives him all that. Doku at best should be a second half sub when city finds it difficult to break down low block teams.

If I had my way I'll do that. Or better yet freaking play Grealish in his rightful position which is in midfield. He has better retention than Alvarez, wins more fouls than Foden and has more gravity than anyone not named KdB or Haaland.

That was what made him special at Villa. Jack needs runners ahead of him but Pep is playing him on the wings like he is Iniesta - which he is not. Imagine playing Zidane as a winger (Jack is not on Zidane's level).

swiz123:
A midfielder is much more than what you see. A midfielder's job is to control possession by helping his team ensure they keep the ball instead of going long all the time.

How do they do this?? It's simple, they cover a lot of ground in an effort to ensure they are always available to receive the ball even under pressure. Central midfielders with high passing volume do this a lot and hence, it becomes arguably the most important metric to judge a CM and DM.

When Rodri was suspended, I watched Kalvin Phillips keenly in the few moments he played and was surprised he was not receiving the ball enough to the degree Rodri was. City did not lack possession, but for some reason the stat could not be translated to Mr. Phillips.

Your post contains the reason why. He was never positioning himself rightly to receive the ball.

raumdeuter:
How is Doku a net negative for now

What he contributes versus what he allows, to me, still puts City at a disadvantage.

He does not track back like Grealish. He loses the ball alot more than Grealish and his final balls are more bad than good. So even if he scores or assists in a game, City end up suffering more on the defensive end when he is on.

airmark:
Thank God that you know that not all managers asked their keepers to only boot out the ball. The playing from the back by keepers, wasn't invented by Fraudiola, among other false claims. Raumdeuter, take note.

Also, thanks for not daring to hail Neuer's passing skills on your Apari coach.

He proved it could consistently win you games. So he gets credit for boldness and winningness.

Neuer could pass the ball but it only became a deadly weapon when Pep managed him. Ederson had passing range was it being used by Benfica to win games while playing a certain way? No.

raumdeuter:
See that attack they gave the ball to Grealish and he turned around to waste time. Really the heir to Hazard

Grealish was doing what was necessary at the time. Doku is still a net negative for now.

Trevor012:
When Doku contributes to City winning a treble we go gree.

People like flashy stuff. Doku has potential but this game would have been a walk in the park with Grealish.

Khanben:
Nba dudes will have to relearn all their ingrained angles with this Wembayama dude. His 8ft wingspan is just disrupting everything. You think he's out of position and all of a sudden that frame is contesting the shot. The nba needs to hope this dude stays healthy because if he does and fulfills his potential, he his going to make money for a lot of people

I am not challenging what you have said but is it because he blocked Klay Thompson in a preseason game?

Shots will get blocked here and there. Patrick Beverley had blocked Lebron if I am not mistaken.

airmark:
Answer the question I asked you my friend.

I won't be surprised if you and Raumdeuter tell us, Fraudiola taught Neuer how to pass the ball from the back.

He did not teach Haaland how to score as well but somehow Haaland had his most prolific season under Pep? What about Messi? Pedro? I could go on and on.

Revolutionizing the way the game is played is not about creating new techniques, silly. It is about changing the mentality or perception of the game.

Not just that, it involves challenging the status quo and engineering a different way of doing things in a manner that it influences how others do or view it.

Pep took the weapon that Ederson/Neuer already had and utilized it to maximize his team's winning potential. That is what makes him special and worthy of emulation.

He did not teach Messi how to dribble or shoot the ball, but he significantly weaponized Messi's dribbling and shooting abilities by creating the false 9 role rather than shoving him to the wings like every other manager (for e.g Rijkaard and Mourinho) tried to do.

I could go on and on.

Before Pep, most football managers coached their keepers into booting the goal kick long hoping for the target striker to bring it down. The few that did the opposite were either treated as over-ambitious neophytes who deployed it in the odd game as a tactical switch or they never won enough with it to justify the paradigm shift.

Pep changed the dynamics in both ways in that he not only used it consistently even when people said it was bound to fail - but that he also won so consistently that other managers believed it was an ironclad winning strategy - and now look what is happening around the world of soccer.

airmark:
Which of these ideas burnt his fingers against Chelsea in the Ucl final? Let us separate his useless inventions from useful ones, before telling you who started the ideas he stole.

The same one that helped him beat Chelsea in 2009.

If Pep stole someone's idea why did other managers not steal it first so they can win like Pep? Why did others not copy the person that Pep stole it from? Why did they wait for Pep to steal it first before they decided to steal it from him?

raumdeuter:
Almost all of these when Pep started the same people laughed at him

Ball playing Keeper they laughed now every club is looking for or playing one
He played without a striker they laughed that its impossible in EPL
He played ball out of the back even under pressure they all laughed, now they all copy him
The press from front was what Pep already used at Barcelona when he had a tactic that the ball must be recovered in 5seconds, Same thing Klopp is using

Which is why those who follow football closely know that his methods have taken over English football even in the lower tiers and non league sides

The highlighted part is what does my head in. If it does not work he is a fraud that was overthinking. When it works I'll start reading that someone somewhere did it in 1908.

The person did it and people did not decide to copy the person till Pep did it?

kendrick9:
The same pundits who said Guardiola can't translate his success to English football and now he's changed football.

You see why I can't take such pundits serious, they are never stable, always repeating cliches and without offering any substantial insight.
If Pep changed English football then how many teams in the PL play Pep's football.
To play that kind of football u need to have an open chequebook.
Even Pep can't play Pep's football without spending billions

Pep showed managers the importance of a ball-playing keeper. Klopp, Arteta, Ten Hag etc. copied him.

Pep showed the importance of inverting full backs.

Pep demonstrated playing out of the back as effective for winning teams.

He played without a striker.

He counter-pressed with Barca and Klopp is on record saying he copied him.

I could go on and on.

And he started with Barcelona B. What chequebook did that team need?